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Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 20.03.18 18:50

@Crackfox wrote:Thanks HiDeHo -  although internet communication can be difficult and it's easy to get it wrong I always get a sense that you are both patient and tolerant and that's why I post my thoughts. Mostly, when I post something it's because I'm trying to understand something and I need that dialogue with others to make sense of things. I find the process of discussing these complex issues helps me to shape my opinions, which have shifted considerably over time. So thank you for your openness and I will continue to try and grapple with this subject, which like you I think is the key to this mystery.


Thanks for that Crackfox.

It takes a lot of patience for everyone to join with threads and discuss, an my main objective is to provide the info.

What I realsied this morning that just looking at the files gives the information, but it needs more to understand how it relates to the rest of the info.

I discovered that, initially, with the statements.

Until they are compiled into timelines with the ability to compare each T9 statements with each other, its impossible to recognise the discrepancies.  I may have spent a few years putting them all together but NOW everyone can view for themselves without spending the time.

When I started the 'How did they manage the deceit in the creche thread, it took a couple of days compiling the summary graphic of the creche times and addin further info.

At the time it felt like an effort that didn't seem to be of any use BUT this morning I realised that without it I could not have put the creche timeline together as the creche records are impossible to understand and remember.

Thats why it has taken me until 10 years later to 'see' the possibility.

For those of us that believe something happened earlier, its VITAL to explain how they were able to deceive everyone that Maddie was in the creche.

I strongly believe that to decide it was likely Catriona and that she was complicit during the week does not explain it to me.  I consider that speculation and if incorrect is very wrong to accuse a girl that is likely innocent of knowing anything that week, to be accused of lying.  

It may EXPLAIN how the deceit happened but does not have anything to base that conclusion on. (not as far as considering her complicit or lying during the holiday week)

I recognise I may be WRONG and as in ALL the details and thoughts I post, if I find ANYTHING to contradict my thoughts I will not try and avoid it.  the TRUTH is more important to me than to support my thoughts at any cost.

If I AM wrong about Catriona then I will admit that, but I prefer to err on the side of caution, rather than accuse an innocent person, especially a young girl, that was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Although I understand it could be a possiblity, I hope everyone can think of the repercussions if she IS innocent, before pointing the finger at her without hesitation.

For me, I am more than comfortable in believing that Maddie wasn't there during the week and Russell appeared most times at the same time as Gerry or Kate so it would have been difficult for the nannies (Catriona) to recognise that the child was any other than the McCanns child as she would freely go with them as her real parent was there with them.

Based on all the children arriving randomly and that with possibly no formal training and a holiday atmosphere, the main objective was to keep the children occupied and, unlike a nursery, would not have recognising each child by name as a priority.

Catriona was likely deceived and  is what I REALLY believe after the post I made this morning.

To be honest I am still blown away with how it all fits together!
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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 20.03.18 19:10

@polyenne wrote:Whilst some members strive only for facts, which is entirely admirable, the reality is that there is much blurring and it is my belief that over the years, and in continuation, enough research hard work and interpretation have gone into forming theories and opinions that are entirely plausible.

One day I’m sure, all this hard work will pay off and slowly but surely, the truth will out. Just maybe there’s a key piece that has yet to be discovered, or recognised as such, that will be the catalyst.


I think I answered your comment from my point of view in the above post.

For ME it has to be confined to ONLY 'facts'  I feel a responsibility to provide only information that can be viewed from a link so others can decide for themselves but ALL other posts are important as I feel there is a likelihood that the files only gives us about 5-10% of what happened that week.

Yes... I DO believe that, apart from what the PJ may hold, there is ONE key piece of information that COULD provide a recognition of the McCanns attempting to pervert the course of justice by lying about the date the last picture was taken, by it being proved that it was NOT taken on Thursday.

Petermac did great research on the photo including the weather conditions, but what no-one has yet discussed or understood, is that Rachael's statement is CRITICAL to show that they were NOT at the pool at lunchtime on Thursday.

It's difficult to get one's head around but once realised, it indicates that she was not playing tennis when the McCann family were there, but it means if SHE wasn't there then Jane was lying about playing tennis with her and was only using the opportunity to say how Maddie was shouting at them through the fence to place Maddie 'around' at the time of the last photo.

If Rachel is lying...(she claims the last time she saw Maddie was at mini tennis BEFORE the last photo)

Then is Jane lying...? (she tells us that Maddie was shouting through the fence so Rachel WOULD have seen her)

So...were the McCanns lying?

Ultimately, was Maddie REALLY there at the pool at 2.29pm May 3rd? Not according to Rachael.
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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Crackfox on 20.03.18 21:44

I've been looking at the crech sheets and I wanted to highlight some of the issues with ROB which I think throw light on the timeline and the key date of Sunday. 

ROB gets his room number wrong on Monday am, Tuesday am, Wednesday am but then corrected, Wednesday pm again corrected. Interestingly, he gets it right on Sunday. 
ROB appears to get his daughter's name wrong on Tuesday, appearing to write Emma before correcting it.
ROB doesn't sign his daughter out Monday pm, Tuesday am and Thursday pm (when Cat signs out) 
ROB's signature is very erratic and I think there are at least three versions all starting from Monday.

I think some of these things could be explained away but getting your apartment number right on Sunday but then subsequently  wrong on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday  does not make sense.

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 20.03.18 23:47

I feel it is important to post this, translation courtesy of Anna Esse



http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.ca/search/label/McCann%20dossier%20anomalies
Enfants Kidnappés is/was comprised mainly of professionals from the field of police work and they worked on  several topics from the Maddie case.

This one refers to the creche records and discusses the issues that I was posting this morning.

They are looking at possible explanations for the anomalies on the creche records,  and I feel that the possibility of the explanation of Ella being mistaken for Maddie is certainly one that should be considered as it 'fits' throughout the week, even though I initially only saw the Tuesday being a possibility.

If one considers the possibility of the records being on a table near the entrance, with no staff member monitoring it, and with both Russell and at least one of the McCanns arriving at the same time to pick up the 'ONE CHILD' but giving two signatures,in some cases, and leaving blank in others (maybe because of being in the presence of a staff member as it would have highlighted there should have been TWO children to pick up?)

Regardless, I think this is worthwhile to read and also highlights that there could be a question as to whether Maddie attended the creche in the last few days!



SATURDAY, 22 NOVEMBER 2008


The McCann case: anomalies in the case file.



Enfants Kidnappés

22/11/08

Since a small part of the case file - the DVD version was made accessible to the public, a great deal of ink has flowed. We note that it is necessary to be cautious as to its contents. In fact, it is only 17% of the complete case file and certain details are only of interest in relation to the complete file and not taken out of their context.

You probably know that our team, at the association, is comprised mainly of professionals from the field of police work. As such, we have analysed the case file and from the first pages, we have identified a few anomalies. Thus, the registers from the Kids Club appeared to be incomplete. Certain gaps have not been explained.


Thus we note that on May 1st 2007, Madeleine McCann's name is on the Kids Club regsiter. She arrived at 9.30am, dropped off by Gerry. According to the register, Gerry spent the morning playing tennis. He went back to fetch Madeleine at 12.20pm. Where things seem stranger to us is in the entries for the afternoon. Gerry drops Madeleine off at the Kids Club at 2.30pm and he spends his afternoon, again according to the register, playing tennis and at the swimming pool. Oddly, no one went back to fetch Madeleine in the evening! No signature for the evening of May 1st 2007. Why? Why did no one sign the register that evening?

Various explanations are possible.

It could be imagined that the parents arrived late to pick up Madeleine and that they didn't take the time to sign the register. In that case, why isn't that made clear in the case file? Why is there no mention of this possible lateness? And above all, why were they late? Right in the middle of an investigation into the mysterious disappearance of a little four year-old girl, these details are important. But the anomalies continue the following day.

According to the register for May 2nd 2007, the day before Madeleine's disappearance, Kate dropped Maddie off at the Kids Club at 9.20am. Madeleine was picked up at 12.30pm but it's not Kate or Gerry's signature on the register. Someone else has signed the register in the space for parents. The signature of Cat nanny, in other words, CATRIONA BAKER is found there.

Here too, you could imagine various explanations. The parents arrived late (once again?) and in a hurry (why?), they didn't sign the register. You could think that they forgot, for the second time, to sign the register. You could imagine that Catriona had finished her shift and as the parents had not yet come to fetch Maddie, Catriona signed the register then took Madeleine to her parents. You could imagine lots of things. But no explanation is provided in the case file. Catriona didn't mention it in her interview, the parents neither. But this kind of detail raises questions that need to be resolved. Too many unanswered questions, too many whys, too many gaps, not enough explanation.

These explanations could go in both directions. Thus, the investigators must wonder if Maddie didn't disappear sooner than May 3rd? If she was indeed present present at the Kids Club on the afternoon of May 1st? Why didn't anyone sign the register? Was she actually present at the Kids Club on the morning of May 2nd? Why did Catriona sign in the space for parents? Why does Kate's signature on the register for May 2nd seem different from Kate's other signatures? Where were the parents if someone else signed for them?

Certainly, these anomalies may only be trivial details, but these details could equally be significant, even fundamental to the investigation. Don't forget we are talking about the disappearance of a little four year-old girl. We cannot allow ourselves to leave these questions unanswered.

These anomalies, which are the first of a long series, were communicate to whom they may concern. And it is in referring to the article on SOS Madeleine of November 19th, we discover that a hand-writing report would be necessary. This confirms our suspicions and implicitly confirms certain rumours mentioning forged pieces of writing, forged signatures....manipulated documents...signatures added several days after the date indicated...etc.

If this report, that SOS Madeleine speaks of, confirms our our suspicions (and the rumours) these details which we have officially revealed, are then clearly less "trivial" !!!!
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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Ladyinred on 21.03.18 10:54

Hideho, thank you for posting the above.  I have huge respect and gratitude for all that you have done in this case, and for generously informing and sharing your work with us.

Interesting to note that nine years ago there were suspicions that the disappearance occurred before 3rd May.
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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Phoebe on 21.03.18 11:18

According to the creche register activity sheet, afternoon creche activities ceased at 5 pm. After this the children were presumably brought to the Tapas area for tea which was still under the supervision of the nannies. I strongly suspect that the creche sheets were not brought to the Tapas and that the nannies just handed over the children to whoever was collecting them after tea. There are also examples of children magically being signed in during a period when the creche group, complete with nanny, was outdoors on a "garden adventure" and signed out while they were actually down at the beach. Unless the nannies were carrying their respective creche sheets around with them everywhere they went (highly unlikely IMO) then it stands to reason that the sheets were filled retrospectively. The notion that Russell would mistake his own daughter's name for "Emma" is farcical. This certainly suggests that someone other than the parent was, at least occasionally, signing the parents names. Similarly, we are supposed to believe that Kate also could not spell Madeleine's name on one occasion but instead misspelled it as the more commonly used form "Madeline". I suspect that the nannies, knowing the creche records would be requested by the P.J. did a quick retro-filling of the records by copying the parent's signatures and, to disguise this, signed "Cat Nanny" occasionally lest the forgery be rumbled. In the Jellyfish creche an under 3 child managed to sign itself out - " I am playing with Mummy and Daddy this afternoon". Totally impossible. The nannies would never suspect that the files would become available for public scrutiny and would expect that, seeing as Madeleine disappeared outside of creche-time, manipulating the register to make the childcare appear more organised would go largely unremarked upon.

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 22.03.18 17:32

@HiDeHo wrote:As many of you know, I find it a POSSIBILITY that Maddie only went to the creche maybe Sunday/Monday and therefore Catriona would have little recollection of her from that short time (with lots of little blonde girls in the Kids Club)

Apparently there is no question that long term nurseries have trouble identifying the names of all the children and the Kids Club room had approximately 14 children.  Catriona was unlikely to have had much, if any, formal training from Mark Warner (as discovered in a BBC Whistleblower program exposed 2 weeks before at their Egypt location)

She was a young girl who, as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, was likely there more for the holiday location than to further her career with children, and though probably very responsible, may have regarded he 'nanny' job as looking after the children and keeping them occupied, as opposed to taking an interest to learn about the children.

Once informed of the disappearance and recognising that she was SUPPOSED to have been looking after Maddie until that afternoon, I feel that its POSSIBLE that Catriona second guessed herself and thought that the child that was there on Thursday afternoon was Maddie (but was actually Ella) they both looked similar






With this in mind, she recalled that she didnt remember if Maddie was there Sunday morning... It was ELLA that wasn't there Sunday morning.  She would have had a difficult time to remember for sure  and be able to identify the children individually on the first morning, but upon reflection, she recalled the child that she looked after until Thursday afternoon was not there on Sunday morning.

We know that Ella, because of her foot infection, was not allowed to join in water sports and this seems to be reflected in the creche records...

Ella was taken to the creche on Sunday afternoon at the same time as Maddie at 2.45pm, but was picked up 45 minutes later at 3.30pm at the time the activity sheet tells us there was Splish Splash Splosh water time.

Catriona, at this point, was still unlikely able to identify each individual child and only had ONE of the two children in the morning and only ONE of the two of them for the main part of the afternoon.






On Monday both Ella and Maddie were signed in for the morning, and this is where we can see that the Activity Sheet does not follow the actual activities as it says it was 'mini tennis' and we know from the tennis sheets and from Georgina the tennis instructor that this happened on Tuesday morning. The activities for Monday would have been changed.

Was it possible that the afternoon activity of 'Garden Adventure' was changed from 3.30-4.30 and replaced the 10.00-11.00 time (which tells us was mini tennis)?

This would leave the 3.30pm -4.30pm time slot needing to be replaced.

The activity sheet tells us that Splish Splash time was scheduled for Tuesday morning, so was it moved to fill in the time where 'Garden Adventure' was originally scheduled? (3.30-4.30pm Monday).  Maybe the parents needed to know beforehand that the children needed their swim suits so the Monday morning change could not have been Splish Splash time.



IF something had happened to Maddie at this time there may have been a decision to send Ella (instead of Maddie) and it was arranged that she would be dropped off late (maybe a panic?) at 3.15pm but upon arrival (if the child was Ella) realised that she couldn't stay for water play and was removed almost immediately at the start of water play 3.30pm

Curiously, 'Ella' was not signed in until 4pm half way between the afternoon activity (possibly water play) which she couldn't have joined in with anyway... and shows no sign out time.  What would be the point of signing her in, knowing she couldnt join in and knowing the children would be brought over to the High Tea shortly after.

Was it MAYBE to keep the 'numbers' up and confuse the nannies about WHICH child was being taken to high tea?

It is also important to remember that the PJ analysis of this creche day is MISSING from the files.  Did they see there were anomalies on this day which they couldn't release in the files?

Could it explain why 'Maddie' was signed in at 3.15pm and taken out at 3.30pm bcuse it was actually Ella that was there and not Maddie?

It is still possible/likely that the children could not be identified easily.





Tuesday morning was mini tennis.

Both Maddie and Ella were signed in, but even though we are told that Russell walked with Jez and Gerry to pick up the children at lunchtime only ONE child was signed out.  Russell did not sign the register.

Could it have been ELLA in the creche and Gerry signed, hence the nannies would have thought he was the little girl with the blonde hair's daddy (later thinking it was Maddie but may have actually been Ella)?

Tuesday afternoon, Gerry signed the register at 2.30 (Maddie) but CAT filled in the blank for Ella.

Maddie was NOT signed out Tuesday afternoon but Russell signed Ella out.  ONE cild was signed in and only ONE child was signed out.

Interesting AGAIN to note the PJ analysis for this creche day is ALSO MISSING! (Anomalies recognised but not suitable to release in the files?)




I will leave it at that point for now, but please note, although I have recognised the possibility that Ella may have been mistaken for Maddie I have not gone through the actual timeline (possible) explanation until now and I am even MORE convinced that it very strong likelihood.

We are here to discuss and all I am asking is to consider the possibility that it MAY have been achieved this way, rather than disregard it.

It takes a lot of thought and I know many don't have the time (or inclination/motivation) to go into understanding the  detail that I have explained as a possibility above, but for those that do I welcome your thoughts. Thank you.

Its very new for me but it DOES seen to fit into place as I was putting it together above.




ETA: Because this 'possible explanation' was achieved as I was writing the post, I haven't added Wednesday and Thursday yet so don't know if there will be a possible explanation for those days.

As I mention a lot, I never know what I will find as I do my research.  I don't have a theory and make it 'work'  I just look at the information and try to make sense of it, with no idea what I will find.

In this case I'm quite taken aback how it could make sense.




@HiDeHo wrote:One major 'lightbulb' moment that struck me in the above scenario, is that Tuesday lunchtime, Jez, Russell and Gerry all walked together to the creche, but Russell did not sign his child out.

Is it POSSIBLE that Gerry signed and it was Ella that was picked up, therefore establishing that the child Gerry was associated with was Ella (keeping in mind the names were possibly not important to the nannies) and because Russell was with him, Ella would have gone with them easily?

HiDeHoTo follow from my last post above,  I have to add that it would also explain why so many of the witnesses described a 'shy and timid' child (which we are told describes Ella) as opposed to the 'extroverted' child that Maddie has been described as...

HiDeHi wrote:




As can be seen above I see no statement from the nannies that confirms without question that they specifically identified Maddie


CLICK HERE to view full week creche register summary:









As mentioned I will now attempt to make sense of Wednesday/ Thursday.  I have briefly added some thoughts to those two days but I have no idea, at this moment, what I will find (or won't find) with Wednesday/ Thursday, once I scrutinise them fully






WEDNESDAY



This was the day that rained and tennis was cancelled in the morning.

Gerry and Kate were seen at the Millenium at breakfast time by Dianne Webster (no mention of whether they had the children with them

The twins were signed in at 9.10am by Gerry and 'Maddie; was signed in at 9.30am and AGAIN at the same time as Russell signed his child in.  (as possible once again, did both of them arrive and sign the register but only ONE CHILD was sent into the room.

Could this be part of the effort to hope the nannies would, when asked a couple days later, think that it was Gerry's child?

Question is, WHY did it take 20 minutes between dropping off the twins and Maddie when its a 10 min walk between the two creche?

Did Gerry (and maybe Kate because there was no tennis) drop the twins off at 9.10am the walk over to the Millenium to meet up with Russell and then all go together to Maddie and Ella's creche to sign BOTH children in but only send Ella into the room?.

This may account for why Dianne saw them at the Millenium but does not remember if they had breakfast)

After they went back to the apartment before the cleaner arrived (she starts at 10am but we dont know what time she cleaned McCanns apartment) and then left as she described in the video.






SUMMARY OF WEDNESDAY MORNING.


Wednesday morning rained so both Gerry and Kate dropped the twins off 10 mins EARLIER than usual at 9.10am

Could this be to allow time to first walk over to Millenium (where Dianne Webster claims she saw them but not necessarily for breakfast) and then, with Russell,  walked over to Maddie and Ella's creche to both sign at the same time, but only send in one child allowing the nannies, when they recollected the week, to think it was GERRY'S child that was in the creche?

If Maddie was not around at this time then the effort would have been to try to 'trick' everyone into thinking she was.



May I say that ONCE AGAIN, I had no idea at the beginning of this post what I would find...or WHETHER I would find anything... but I can see the files are laying out a possible 'story' of what happened.

Once again I am in disbelief with how its all (possibly)  fitting together.

Next I will move to WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON

(A little later)



ETA.  One thing I missed in the above is that AGAIN Russell arrived at the SAME TIME to pick up at lunchtime.  However it was only HIM that signed (was it possible that if he was with Kate or Gerry they couldn't sign in view of someone, OR did neither of them show up?)

Catriona signed once again, though we dont know when.
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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Phoebe on 22.03.18 18:08

@ HiDeHo where was Madeleine during all this on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. She cannot have been in any of the Tapas 9's apartments as they were cleaned on Monday and again on Wednesday. If she was ill one would expect her parents to have forgone tennis etc. to be with her. If she was dead one would expect her parents to have forgone tennis - not being in the mood for "anyone for tennis" type holiday cheer while their 3 year old lay dead! If they needed an excuse for one of them to have missed these activities they could have easily claimed to have fallen victim to the tummy-bug which  allegedly afflicted much of the rest of the group. If we are to doubt that Madeleine died on Thursday on the grounds that her parents could not possibly have functioned normally that night in the face of such a crisis, how are we to believe that they went off gaily to tennis and to high tea and playtime for 4 days while their eldest lay dying or dead. (sorry, question mark button still playing up!)

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Crackfox on 22.03.18 19:14

I agree that it is highly plausible that Ella was signed in as Maddie and then someone else (possibly one of the Payne's daughters who JT said she knew well and I believe was very friendly with E***) was signed in as E***. Could it be that the foot episode was a deliberate attempt to create a false flag?

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 22.03.18 21:41

Pheobe, HOW it was accomplished is certainly of importance and without knowing WHICH day she was first not able (for whatever reason) to be around the OC it's hard.

For me, as it stands, with Fatima seeing her on Sunday afternoon then I would have to look from Monday onwards. 

I believe something happened before Tuesday morning because of the discrepancies starting and unless someone can explain to me what they may have been trying to hide at that point

Although she MAY have been around on Monday and that COULD have been the day something happened but we don't know whether she had died that day or whether something happened and she was fatally ill.

I think most people would agree that if she had died then Monday would have been enough time to decide what to do and accomplish it.  (Keeping in mind that those who believed she died Thursday evening are suggesting it could be accomplished in less than 3 hours. (after Gerry came back from tennis at 7pm)

Looking at the cadaver odour 'route', it seems possible that she was moved from behind the couch, to the parents bedroom, out of their bedroom doors and onto the veranda, and maybe lowered down to the garden, or taken down the steps to the garden where there would have been less cadaver odour as she would have likely been suitably covered.


(Thanks to Bud Wichers for the original map.  I added the red Cadaver and Blood marks)




IF that is what happened then the rest of the week would be taken care of regarding where she would be regarding the cleaners etc.

Regarding their 'grief', this is something I have contemplated for a long time and though I haven't scrutinised it yet, I have certainly seen 'signs' of how it was dealt with.

Is this the reason they stopped going to lunch at the Paynes?  (I see nothing to indicate Dianne Webster was aware of what was happening)  They would have avoided being in her presence WITHOUT Maddie or showing grief.

Is this why they didn't go to breakfast after Sunday?

Is this why they didn't go to the Paraiso with the others on Thursday afternoon?

They seemed to avoid being in contact with the others, but ALSO, can we really believe they were doing as they claimed?

We believe they were at tennis every day....but was there for Kate?

It will be very time consuming to check their activities every day for confirmation, but at first glace, I recall Jez saying he saw Kate but she wasn't playing tennis...

Rachael was supposedly sick


Rachael Rogatory
so on Wednesday, actually on Wednesday it was raining anyway, so I think all, all thetennis lessons and everything were cancelled, erm but so [size=16]I was ill so, I was in bed”[/size]


Was that really the case or was tere something else going on?

Curiously at 'lunchtime' Matthew claims both himself and Kate were in sport clothes so they went for a jog.

We dont have creche registers for Grace so we dont know if she was at creche or Rachael was looking after her or Matthew picked her up and dropped off with Rachael, but we don't know the time of their 'lunchtime' jog and how it would fit into that day.

Kate supposedly picked up the twins at 12.25pm and took them back at 2.40 and then dropped off Maddie at 2.45.

I would need to look at all their statements around that time to see if there is anything that shows proof of where they are and what they were doing

Wednesday evening was strange, as apparently Gerry and Russell went together to the tapas.  Jez was told Kate was putting the children to bed but although he mentions more arriving at the table he made no mention of Kate.

Tuesday night the quiz mistress is not sure whether she saw Kate at the table.  Where was Jane?  Did she stay with Kate?

There is SO much that could indicate their 'week' was so very different to what they claim but already, without scrutinising I see so many indications that Kate, in particular, may have not been in public as much as we are led to believe

Until I have spent time working on this I cannot put it into an understandable summary, so I apologise, but I still need to work on Wednesday afternoon and Thursday creche :)


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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 22.03.18 21:52

@Crackfox wrote:I agree that it is highly plausible that Ella was signed in as Maddie and then someone else (possibly one of the Payne's daughters who JT said she knew well and I believe was very friendly with E***) was signed in as E***. Could it be that the foot episode was a deliberate attempt to create a false flag?


I can't see any reason to  bring any other contrived effort into place.

As I see it, its basically Ella signed in, but Gerry present at the same time so that the nannies (when giving statements later) would remember GERRY at the door and therefore believing Ella was his child and were not mindful that she left easily because her real daddy was there..

That would account for them describing the personaity that matched Ella and not Maddie.

Important to keep in mind that names of the children in a room of approx 14 children were not necessarily remembered easily, never mind used a lot.  Nannies were there to keep the children occupied for random lengths of time not to learn about their personalities in the holiday short term atmosphere.

After a visit from a child, they didn't even know if that child would be back again. (Which may have happened with Maddie after a day or two)

The only thing that Gerry and Russell needed to ensure was that he was not identified as signing the register with no child.  Meanwhile Russell entered his name and dropped off Ella normally (maybe staying out of view while Gerry spoke to the nannies to ensure they remembered him and had the recollection of Ella as being his child)

Ultimately...this would NOT be a case of Ella impersonating Maddie, it would be a very CUNNING PLAN to have the nannies believe the child that came in when Gerry took the time to speak to them was Maddie.
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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Crackfox on 23.03.18 0:08

Thanks HiDeHo I see your point - Occam's razor!  My only issue still is that if it was that simple, wouldn't GM get ROB's apartment number right if he's signing in two children? I feel there is a missing piece of the puzzle and it sounds like someone was told the apartment was G5D but misheard it as G5B. Possibly the same with the name. I don't know how to explain this without bringing a third person into the equation, someone more on the periphery perhaps?

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 23.03.18 1:12

@Crackfox wrote:Thanks HiDeHo I see your point - Occam's razor!  My only issue still is that if it was that simple, wouldn't GM get ROB's apartment number right if he's signing in two children? I feel there is a missing piece of the puzzle and it sounds like someone was told the apartment was G5D but misheard it as G5B. Possibly the same with the name. I don't know how to explain this without bringing a third person into the equation, someone more on the periphery perhaps?


I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you say Gerry was signing in two children.  Can you explain that?

I have only said I see that Russell takes his child and signs in/out as usual, but its possible that Gerry arrives at the same time and signs 'Maddie' in/out (even though there is not a child) 

As far as remembering the apartment number I have lived at this address for more than a year and yet still have to find an envelope to read the four digit Post Office Box #
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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Crackfox on 23.03.18 15:15

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you say Gerry was signing in two children.  Can you explain that?


Hi HiDeHo - what I meant by that was I thought your theory was that GM possibly signed in E*** as Madeleine but would then have also signed E*** in. I thought this because I thought it would be very unlikely that ROB made so many mistakes - particularly as he did seem to get it right on the first day, including the right apartment number. Have I misunderstood this? 

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 23.03.18 15:55

@Crackfox wrote:I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you say Gerry was signing in two children.  Can you explain that?


Hi HiDeHo - what I meant by that was I thought your theory was that GM possibly signed in E*** as Madeleine but would then have also signed E*** in. I thought this because I thought it would be very unlikely that ROB made so many mistakes - particularly as he did seem to get it right on the first day, including the right apartment number. Have I misunderstood this?


I'm sorry Crackfox. I obviously I didn't explain my thoughts well so thank you for pointing that out to me.

Many of the drop offs and pick ups have BOTH Russell and Gerry or Kate at the same time.

What I am suggesting is that Rob signs Ella in/out and Ella joins the room or leaves the room when she sees her daddy.

What I believe may be the CUNNING plan is that Gerry (who is there also) SIGNS to drop off or pick up 'Maddie' (even though she is not there).  In some cases either Russell or Gerry signed.

Gerry also likely makes a point of chatting to the nannies so they BELIEVE the child dropped off or picked up is GERRY'S child or thats how they remember it a few days later after the disappearance.

Please let me know if I haven't explained this possibility in an easy to understand way.

I will try to do a graphic to explain better.


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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Crackfox on 23.03.18 17:33

Thanks HiDeHo - I'm sure it's just me being a bit dim and I understand clearly now, you mean GM perhaps goes empty handed so to speak and just chats and distracts? That sounds risky to me but I'm certainly not ruling anything out as far as this debacle is concerned. I think one issue could be head counts, I know people who work with children always do a basic head count when you venture outside and the same when you return. There would be a real panic if numbers didn't tally, IMO.

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 23.03.18 17:49

@Crackfox wrote:Thanks HiDeHo - I'm sure it's just me being a bit dim and I understand clearly now, you mean GM perhaps goes empty handed so to speak and just chats and distracts? That sounds risky to me but I'm certainly not ruling anything out as far as this debacle is concerned. I think one issue could be head counts, I know people who work with children always do a basic head count when you venture outside and the same when you return. There would be a real panic if numbers didn't tally, IMO.


I agree with you regarding the headcount, but knowing the children were picked up and dropped off randomly and with Ella being signed out when she wasn't signed in, I cant imagine they were overly careful about checking with the register.

Likely more a headcount of who was in the room and maybe justifying the child had been picked up as with so many blank spaces it was not a strict register, probably more to alert parents if a problem.

eg. Tuesday afternoon with a trip to the beach, Ella wasn't signed in and Maddie wasn't signed out.

Hardly reliable and responsible (or correct) accounting for the children.
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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 23.03.18 21:21

In my opinion, the MAIN reason many are reticent to consider that something may have happened earlier is because they feel the nannies would be correct in identifying Maddie.

Do you agree or disagree that these nannies statements can be eliminated as DEFINITE sightings of Maddie?

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 25.03.18 22:35

I'm adding this curiosity to this thread in the hope (though doubtful) that someone may have the knowledge of what the ORIGINAL text or recording are, from Dianne Webster's rogatory statement.

Was the (inaudible) added to avoid using the word it MAY have been?

I can think of no other reason to put a capital 'S' for super in the context of that sentence other than 'Super Injunction'

Could that be what she had said?


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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Phoebe on 26.03.18 0:53

@ HiDeHo. The idea that the nannies could have been innocently mistaking Ella for Madeleine faces several problems.
1) Who was the sole girl that remained in creche with Cat on Thursday afternoon after Ella was collected by Russell. If Ella was being "Madeleine" who was being Ella! If Ella left with Russell, did Cat not notice he was taking the child she had thought was Gerry's all week. She saw that the child signed out at 4.30 had been signed out as Ella O'Brien and the only two girls in creche that whole afternoon were Ella and Madeleine. If Ella (who was posing as Madeleine) left, who on earth was the other girl left behind and how could would she also be mistaken for "Madeleine" (who had just left with Russell!)
2) Cat says Madeleine had to be comforted on her lap during the sail that morning. Did she really not bother to address her by name when comforting her. What if she had called Ella "Madeleine" as in "don't be scared Madeleine" and the child had replied "I'm not called Madeleine, my name is Ella". The whole scheme would have come apart at the scenes. Much too risky IMO.

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 26.03.18 5:19

@Phoebe wrote:@ HiDeHo. The idea that the nannies could have been innocently mistaking Ella for Madeleine faces several problems.

1) Who was the sole girl that remained in creche with Cat on Thursday afternoon after Ella was collected by Russell.

If Ella was being "Madeleine" who was being Ella!

If Ella left with Russell, did Cat not notice he was taking the child she had thought was Gerry's all week.

She saw that the child signed out at 4.30 had been signed out as Ella O'Brien and the only two girls in creche that whole afternoon were Ella and Madeleine.

If Ella (who was posing as Madeleine) left, who on earth was the other girl left behind and how could would she also be mistaken for "Madeleine" (who had just left with Russell!)

2) Cat says Madeleine had to be comforted on her lap during the sail that morning. Did she really not bother to address her by name when comforting her. What if she had called Ella "Madeleine" as in "don't be scared Madeleine" and the child had replied "I'm not called Madeleine, my name is Ella". The whole scheme would have come apart at the scenes.

Much too risky IMO.



1) Who was the sole girl that remained in creche with Cat on Thursday afternoon after Ella was collected by Russell. 

The creche room was shared by Sharks and Lobsters so we don't know how many children (little blonde girls) weer in the creche during the afternoon.


If Ella was being "Madeleine" who was being Ella! 

It is unlikely that even Catriona could individually identify all the children and call them all by name.  Maybe if they were needy and stuck out for some reason from the others, but that would not happen with Maddie if she wasn't there.



If Ella left with Russell, did Cat not notice he was taking the child she had thought was Gerry's all week. 

Russell did NOT sign Ella out from the creche, but the time chosen was around the time they left with summy snake to go to high tea at the tapas

Was he really there?

Thursday afternoon was supposed to the Water Diving. 3.30 - 4.30 which Ella could not join in with because of her foot (though we cannot be sure of the activities on the sheet)


Did he pick her up earlier?  Without confirmation of the activities or what time he picked her up its hard to determine. (He tells us he ran up from the beach).  


She saw that the child signed out at 4.30 had been signed out as Ella O'Brien and the only two girls in creche that whole afternoon were Ella and Madeleine. 

As mentioned, no-one signed Ella out and we don't know why Catrona filled it in

The creche had Sharks and Lobsters so there may have been other girls there.



If Ella (who was posing as Madeleine) left, who on earth was the other girl left behind and how could would she also be mistaken for "Madeleine" (who had just left with Russell!)

Ella was not posing as Maddie.  She entered the creche as herself, but it appears that Gerry had his plan of making himself 'known' so he was attempting to have the nannies believe the child that entered was his.

What we ARE told by Catriona is that she does not remember who picked up 'Maddie' at lunchtime and who dropped her off. So, there seems to be an issue surrounding this time and one that I have already addressed in the discrepancies.


Kate claims she went back to the apartment first before going to pick Maddie up with Fiona (Kate signed at 12.25)

Fiona claims they left the TAPAS area to go pick up Scarlet and Maddie

Gerry claims Kate went back to the apartment to make lunch and HE went to pick up Maddie using the short cut.

I covered it in this video



For those that cant watch the video, it is important enough that I did this graphic with screenshots from the video...



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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Ruffian on 26.03.18 9:05

@HiDeHo
Many recognised Madeleine from the news broadcast on the 4th
Therefore your theory falls flat

Unless you think Cat was almost blind or never once looked at Madeleine who was constantly in her care that week

And again I ask you what about all the other inconsistant entries the creche records for the other children

No matter how you spin your theory its inconceivable that all the staff that saw Madeleine that week were wrong or simply saw Ella instead

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by HiDeHo on 26.03.18 11:37

@Ruffian wrote:@HiDeHo
Many recognised Madeleine from the news broadcast on the 4th
Therefore your theory falls flat

Unless you think Cat was almost blind or never once looked at Madeleine who was constantly in her care that week

And again I ask you what about all the other inconsistant entries the creche records for the other children

No matter how you spin your theory its inconceivable that all the staff that saw Madeleine that week were wrong or simply saw Ella instead


You are welcome to your own thoughts and opinions Ruffian.

I have based it on the files and I am more than pleased with how it all fits together as being a LIKELY possibility.

Maybe you could explain how you believe it was accomplished?
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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by Ruffian on 26.03.18 12:45

I study the files every day because the are vast in information and things are easily missed

The witnesses that saw Madeleine are in there. I have posted in another thread. I will post again in here later

You dispute every sighting because it does not fall in line with your opinion the case

You still haven't acknowledge there are other anomalies in the creche  sheets for other children that attended

You cannot explain away the fact Madeleines photos were broadcast on the 4th of May and many say they recognised her from those same photo's

As I have pointed out before the files we see only 17% of the case files, some are missing, translation errors and many files untranslated

You are basing your opinion  on information that is incomplete

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Re: Can Anyone Explain Why the Discrepancies Started on Tuesday Morning? Please ask if you need further info

Post by BlueBag on 26.03.18 13:14

@Ruffian wrote:You cannot explain away the fact Madeleines photos were broadcast on the 4th of May and many say they recognised her from those same photo's
Who?
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