How old were the twins?

by **Jill Havern** 11.10.17 12:29

Girl aged TWO is youngest child to give evidence in British criminal court as toddler helps put abuser behind bars

A two-year-old girl has become the youngest person in British history to give evidence after a specialist team was called in to interview her.

The defendant, who has not been named to keep the identity of the child hidden, was sentenced to more than ten years in prison for child sex offences following her testimony.

A representative from the Ministry of Justice’s register of intermediaries, which deals with minors giving evidence in court cases, came in to aid police with talking to the girl.

The NSPCC and other child protection experts have said the landmark case should be a deterrent to paedophiles who think vulnerable witnesses or victims will remain silent.

Criminoligist Dame Joyce Plotnikoff told the Guardian: 'Offenders may target the most vulnerable in society in the belief that they won't be able to tell what happened, so this is an important case.

'However, registered intermediaries are a scarce resource, unfortunately available to only a small proportion of those who would benefit from their services. Ministry of Justice plans to increase their numbers have stalled without explanation.'

The youngster was initially reluctant to talk, but eventually began to answer simple questions, provide prosecutors with a name and use a doll to point out body parts.

When they needed to take a mouth swab from her, the girl initially was terrified of the sight of a forensics officer wearing rubber gloves.

To counter this the MoJ expert made everyone wear gloves, and they spent a period pretending they were brushing their teeth, putting her at ease to give the sample.

An NSPCC spokesman said: 'It’s hugely positive to see that she was so well supported to tell police what really happened.

'The NSPCC has urged the Ministry of Justice to drastically increase the availability of well-trained, independent experts to ensure justice is done.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4968200/Two-year-old-girl-youngest-evidence-Britain.html

by G-Unit 11.10.17 13:13

As a child I had a memory of being in a vehicle with a woman who told me off because I kept sliding off the slippery leather seats during the journey. It only made sense when my adoptive mother told me that the Health visitor had delivered me to them by taxi. I was two years old.

by **Jill Havern** 11.10.17 13:35

That's quite funny G-Unit - recreating your birth!

I can vividly remember laying in my cot when I was two years old watching the headlights of passing cars coming through the windows and up on to the ceiling and feeling scared. And also being mesmerised by a pattern in the wallpaper thinking it must be a monster. No wonder babies start crying when they wake up and find themselves alone in their 'cage'! That's actually my earliest memory.

Yet I cannot recall the exact details of an encounter with the male babysitter when I was six years old that changed my life.

by sar 11.10.17 14:08

G-Unit wrote:As a child I had a memory of being in a vehicle with a woman who told me off because I kept sliding off the slippery leather seats during the journey. It only made sense when my adoptive mother told me that the Health visitor had delivered me to them by taxi. I was two years old.

+1 G-Unit that's an amazing memory to have! Used to have a vision of a white room with lots of tiles, bright lights and people in what I now know were scrubs. Not sure if it means anything but what a strange image to have stuck in your noggin from year dot.!!! Had an Uncle who'd drive me and my little brother around in the late 70's early 80's in a Ford Cortina, God forbid you ever got onto the back seats on a hot day in yer' short trousers!!! He had an Alsatian dog and did ice hockey, pretty big at the time!!?? He was the first person to do what me and my bro call "Fast Uncle Reverse Driving" ... a big hairy arm would thrust itself through the front seats, hook onto the headrest, and your Uncle would look out the back window with what I guess was a kind of grimace? All you could see were things in the wind screen getting smaller and the whine of the engine getting louder as you sped backwards!!!! Dunno, but to this day reversing just a bit too fast is still pretty cool in my book!

by **Jill Havern** 11.10.17 14:27

even better carried out with a handbrake turn sar - on a skid pan though!

by G-Unit 11.10.17 18:37

sar wrote:
G-Unit wrote:As a child I had a memory of being in a vehicle with a woman who told me off because I kept sliding off the slippery leather seats during the journey. It only made sense when my adoptive mother told me that the Health visitor had delivered me to them by taxi. I was two years old.
+1 G-Unit that's an amazing memory to have! Used to have a vision of a white room with lots of tiles, bright lights and people in what I now know were scrubs. Not sure if it means anything but what a strange image to have stuck in your noggin from year dot.!!! Had an Uncle who'd drive me and my little brother around in the late 70's early 80's in a Ford Cortina, God forbid you ever got onto the back seats on a hot day in yer' short trousers!!! He had an Alsatian dog and did ice hockey, pretty big at the time!!?? He was the first person to do what me and my bro call "Fast Uncle Reverse Driving" ... a big hairy arm would thrust itself through the front seats, hook onto the headrest, and your Uncle would look out the back window with what I guess was a kind of grimace? All you could see were things in the wind screen getting smaller and the whine of the engine getting louder as you sped backwards!!!! Dunno, but to this day reversing just a bit too fast is still pretty cool in my book!

Perhaps you were treated in A & E and no-one thought to tell you? My other strange memory emerged when I went on a coach trip with my Mum to Wales. I wasn't very old. As we reached the top of this hill I suddenly recognised the area. I knew what I would see at the bottom; a bridge over a small river. I said so, only to be told I'd never been there before. I tried to argue, but my Mum was adamant and got annoyed. Only in later years when I researched my past did I discover that there was an unexplained gap from birth to shortly before I was adopted. No-one seemed to know where I was. I have wondered if I was in Wales during that time.

by **sharonl** 11.10.17 18:53

The twins would have seen very little, the perpetrators would have made sure of that, even to the point of sedating them.

"A two-year-old girl has become the youngest person in British history to give evidence after a specialist team was called in to interview her".

Thank goodness this story didn't come out in 2007 else the twins would be giving evidence after a specialist team was called in to ~~interview~~ manipulate them. This could still happen, well in The Sun anyway.

by sar 11.10.17 21:00

Get'emGonçalo wrote: even better carried out with a handbrake turn sar - on a skid pan though!

the 70's / 80's were an amazing time. Lots bad but lots of good too. It was kind of an unself-conscious time, before people started comparing themselves to those who had more. As I understand it the 80's saw the arrival of loadsamoney / greed is good etc. Bad times

by sar 11.10.17 21:05

G-Unit wrote:
sar wrote:
G-Unit wrote:As a child I had a memory of being in a vehicle with a woman who told me off because I kept sliding off the slippery leather seats during the journey. It only made sense when my adoptive mother told me that the Health visitor had delivered me to them by taxi. I was two years old.
+1 G-Unit that's an amazing memory to have! Used to have a vision of a white room with lots of tiles, bright lights and people in what I now know were scrubs. Not sure if it means anything but what a strange image to have stuck in your noggin from year dot.!!! Had an Uncle who'd drive me and my little brother around in the late 70's early 80's in a Ford Cortina, God forbid you ever got onto the back seats on a hot day in yer' short trousers!!! He had an Alsatian dog and did ice hockey, pretty big at the time!!?? He was the first person to do what me and my bro call "Fast Uncle Reverse Driving" ... a big hairy arm would thrust itself through the front seats, hook onto the headrest, and your Uncle would look out the back window with what I guess was a kind of grimace? All you could see were things in the wind screen getting smaller and the whine of the engine getting louder as you sped backwards!!!! Dunno, but to this day reversing just a bit too fast is still pretty cool in my book!
Perhaps you were treated in A & E and no-one thought to tell you? My other strange memory emerged when I went on a coach trip with my Mum to Wales. I wasn't very old. As we reached the top of this hill I suddenly recognised the area. I knew what I would see at the bottom; a bridge over a small river. I said so, only to be told I'd never been there before. I tried to argue, but my Mum was adamant and got annoyed. Only in later years when I researched my past did I discover that there was an unexplained gap from birth to shortly before I was adopted. No-one seemed to know where I was. I have wondered if I was in Wales during that time.

entirely possible! I too was in the care system so there are huge gaps in my memories, sure everyone has them, but there are things I cannot share meaningfully with anyone, fortunately I have 3 more brothers so we can patch things together, but even that isn't enough and leaves us all wondering about what happened to us at various times. Maybe we blocked out some of the memories cause I guess some of them couldn't be too jolly.

by Verdi 11.10.17 21:24

Whether or not it was a possibility that the twins could give evidence to present before a court of law in 2007 or even now, one thing's for sure - the police would have had a chat with them just in case they could impart something useful. At some stage Gerry McCann made a comment to the effect that the twins were too young to be able to communicate at the time of Madeleine's disappearance and Kate McCann had this to say in her autobiographical chiclit published in May 2011 (that date again!)..

I wandered into the children’s bedroom several times to check on Sean and Amelie. They were both lying on their fronts in a kind of crouch, with their heads turned sideways and their knees tucked under their tummies. In spite of the noise and lights and general pandemonium, they hadn’t stirred. They’d always been sound sleepers, but this seemed unnatural.

Scared for them, too, I placed the palms of my hands on their backs to check for chest movement, basically, for some sign of life. Had Madeleine been given some kind of sedative to keep her quiet? Had the twins, too?

It was not until about 11.10pm that two policemen arrived from the nearest town, Lagos, about five miles away. To me they seemed bewildered and out of their depth, and I couldn’t shake the images of Tweedledum and Tweedledee out of my head. I realize how unfair this might sound, but with communication hampered by the language barrier and precious time passing, their presence did not fill me with confidence at all.

madeleine by KATE MCCANN

There you have it - sorted! That innocent explanation for anything and everything the police may or may not have found. If that scenario wasn't designed to preempt those pesky interfering GNR/PJ officers asking the twins awkward questions, I'll eat my ten gallon stetson. I'll even buy one for the occasion!

That simple fact, in my opinion, is the only reason the McCanns and their cronies introduced the ludicrous [sic] notion that the twins were semi-conscious on the night of 3rd May 2007, following Kate McCann's pre-arranged abduction alert.

by G-Unit 11.10.17 22:40

Approximately twelve days after her sister disappeared A.M. was able to communicate quite well;

"Kate dressed Amelie in her sister's pyjamas and the baby said: 'Maddy's jammies. Where is Maddy?
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/05/14/1178995077373.html?page=3

by polyenne 12.10.17 8:21

Oh, but how would Amelie have learnt to call her Maddy....she was NEVER called Maddy.

Not 'alf !

by skyrocket 12.10.17 8:53

About 23 years ago I sat opposite a 2 year old at a wedding. He was called Pip. He spent the entire meal telling me about how the channel tunnel was being dug with a big drill called 'the mole'. I learnt more from him than I did when I visited the tunnel viewing site.

One other point which has (like many other things with this case) puzzled me is why 2 of Kate's close friends say that the twins were born in February 2006 rather than 2005. It is clear from the photos that they weren't and that they look 2 years old in May 07'. Both statements were given in English to the Leicestershire police. One slip up is irrelevant but 2 rings bells (IMO).

Many of the statements appear almost scripted, with very similar/identical phrasing used. Have the statements been 'tweeked' by third parties and mistakes made? Are they entirely scripted? Out of all professions, wouldn't a teacher and a nanny be likely to be the most accurate with children's births?

Linda McQueen (teacher), childhood friend and close adult friend of Kate states:

After the birth of Madeleine the family moved to Amsterdam so that Gerry could continue his professional training. While they were there Kate received IVF treatment and became pregnant with the twins. It was a difficult pregnancy but Sean and Amelie were born healthy in February 2006. Before the disappearance of Madeleine last year, Mark and I used to see Kate, Gerry and the family approximately every two months, we went to Leicester or they came to Liverpool.

Elsewhere in the transcript, she clearly gives the ages of Sean and Amelie to be 3 years at the time of the above interview, April 2008.

Amanda Coxon (cleaner/nanny) and close friend of Kate:

I got to know Gerry and Kate in the year 2000, I worked as a cleaner in their house in Queniborough, once a week. From the beginning they were always a very friendly couple.
During the time I worked there, Kate had her first daughter, Madeleine. Kate asked me whether I would look after Madeleine twice a week when she returned to work part time. I agreed and she would leave Madeleine at my house and come and pick her up later in the day.

Kate, Gerry and Madeleine moved to Amsterdam for a year and when they returned Kate was pregnant with the twins. The twins were born in February 2006 and from that time I helped to look after them.

The relationship I had with Gerry and Kate turned into friendship over the years and I consider myself to be a good friend of Kate's. After their return from Portugal we became very close.

by Julie 12.10.17 12:00

skyrocket wrote:About 23 years ago I sat opposite a 2 year old at a wedding. He was called Pip. He spent the entire meal telling me about how the channel tunnel was being dug with a big drill called 'the mole'. I learnt more from him than I did when I visited the tunnel viewing site.

One other point which has (like many other things with this case) puzzled me is why 2 of Kate's close friends say that the twins were born in February 2006 rather than 2005. It is clear from the photos that they weren't and that they look 2 years old in May 07'. Both statements were given in English to the Leicestershire police. One slip up is irrelevant but 2 rings bells (IMO).

Many of the statements appear almost scripted, with very similar/identical phrasing used. Have the statements been 'tweeked' by third parties and mistakes made? Are they entirely scripted? Out of all professions, wouldn't a teacher and a nanny be likely to be the most accurate with children's births?

Linda McQueen (teacher), childhood friend and close adult friend of Kate states:

After the birth of Madeleine the family moved to Amsterdam so that Gerry could continue his professional training. While they were there Kate received IVF treatment and became pregnant with the twins. It was a difficult pregnancy but Sean and Amelie were born healthy in February 2006. Before the disappearance of Madeleine last year, Mark and I used to see Kate, Gerry and the family approximately every two months, we went to Leicester or they came to Liverpool.

Elsewhere in the transcript, she clearly gives the ages of Sean and Amelie to be 3 years at the time of the above interview, April 2008.

Amanda Coxon (cleaner/nanny) and close friend of Kate:

I got to know Gerry and Kate in the year 2000, I worked as a cleaner in their house in Queniborough, once a week. From the beginning they were always a very friendly couple.
During the time I worked there, Kate had her first daughter, Madeleine. Kate asked me whether I would look after Madeleine twice a week when she returned to work part time. I agreed and she would leave Madeleine at my house and come and pick her up later in the day.

Kate, Gerry and Madeleine moved to Amsterdam for a year and when they returned Kate was pregnant with the twins. The twins were born in February 2006 and from that time I helped to look after them.

The relationship I had with Gerry and Kate turned into friendship over the years and I consider myself to be a good friend of Kate's. After their return from Portugal we became very close.

The '2006' quotes have often baffled me.. hardly an easy mistake to make!

I too have wondered if the 'sedation' story was brought up so that there was never going to be any question of interviewing the twins. But then again, the twins would have only just turned 2 and unlikely (imo) to have been very chatty if questioned. I work in a nursery and there are very few children who can string a sentence together at that age. There is one 2.5 year old who can talk the hind legs off a donkey but could say very little 6 months ago..

The reason I'm led to believe the twins were definitely born in 2005 is because they have been in the 'Tri Star 2' age group (11-12) at their local triathlon clun since 2016, meaning they turned 12 this year. (links included - and, check out Jezza recently winning a medal for the club. Bless him. Bork)

http://www.stuweb.co.uk/clubs.php?c=2933

https://www.britishtriathlon.org/athletes/amelie-mccann_58406

Disclaimer: I've no desire to pry into the twins' lives, my google search was purely to gague their ages after the anomalous birth year quotes.

by Phoebe 12.10.17 22:51

"If I'm honest" the twins, if interviewed at two, were unlikely to have had poorer memories or less powers of articulation than the er um ah you-know eh Tapas 9 big grin

by sandancer 12.10.17 22:57

Any memories the twins might have had will have been effectively , manipulated , quashed and erased by now by their loving family .

Imho of course !

by **Jill Havern** 12.10.17 23:02

Yep, didn't the twins say they wanted to find the monster who took Maddie and bash them?

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/106610/We-ll-find-who-took-our-Maddie-and-bash-them

by willowthewisp 13.10.17 12:59

Get'emGonçalo wrote:Yep, didn't the twins say they wanted to find the monster who took Maddie and bash them?

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/106610/We-ll-find-who-took-our-Maddie-and-bash-them

The Judge would have to look,take into account all actions of the guilty parties,if the Twins did bash the Parents for whatever reason,OK,Naughty step,Willow,right now?

by Verdi 13.10.17 23:49

25th May 2007..

The twins

Madeleine's two-year- old brother and sister Sean and Amelie are a source of great strength to the McCanns - and have helped them retain some sense of normality.

Mr McCann said: "They are growing in front of our eyes. Their speech - Amelie's in particular - in the last few weeks has really come on, and they are really turning from toddlers into a little boy and a little girl. They give us tremendous strength."

The twins are too young to know what has happened to their big sister. Mrs McCann said: "We have said she's gone on a little trip just now and Amelie came out with one really cutting line that went right to the core - she said, 'Madeleine's on trip, back soon'. We certainly pray for that every day."

Her husband added: "Without doubt they help us to continue. We know that they are there and life continues but we need to bring Madeleine back as much for them as for Madeleine as for us.

"Many people say to us that this is a parent's worst nightmare and it is. It truly is, it's as bad as you could possibly imagine.
"But if all three of the children had been taken it could have been even worse than your worst nightmare. We've got to be strong for them. They're here and they do bring you back to earth."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/the-guilt-will-never-leave-us-say-madeleines-parents-7247063.html