Re: Tapas 9 Russel O'Brien

by G-Unit 19.10.16 10:58

worriedmum wrote:Good point G unit-
if we know WHEN there were four other #doctors playing tennis', does this give a possible time?

The questions being asked are about 3rd May. They were included at the request of the McCanns. I can only assume, therefore that Russell was referring to early evening on 3rd May. The interviewer said this after Russell's outburst;

1578 “Let’s not forget these are Gerry and Kate’s questions.”

Why did Detective Constable Gierc feel the need to say that, I wonder? Did s/he feel that Russell's answer wasn't as helpful to Gerry and Kate as it could have been?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

by Cmaryholmes 19.10.16 11:37

Did Kate and Gerry really set the questions for the police ? WHY???

by G-Unit 19.10.16 12:40

Cmaryholmes wrote:Did Kate and Gerry really set the questions for the police ? WHY???

There were questions from the PJ and also from the McCanns. Arguidos are allowed to suggest questions and also to suggest witnesses to be interviewed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RESPONSE-ROGATORY.htm

by Cmaryholmes 19.10.16 13:39

That explains it. I just thought it seemed odd. In this case it does seem that the sainted pair direct everything!

by Verdi 19.10.16 15:33

Cmaryholmes wrote:Did Kate and Gerry really set the questions for the police ? WHY???

I think perhaps this is a more explicit link to your particular question as regards whys and wherefores..

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MCCANNS-WANTED.htm

If not it's still of interest and worth a read.

by Cmaryholmes 19.10.16 16:34

Thank you, will read that.

by suzyjohnson 19.10.16 23:34

G-Unit wrote:I found this interesting;

1578 “How were they behaving”'
Reply “Absolutely normal, erm you know, there was no, there was no suggestion that anything untoward had happened and they were concealing it, there’s you know I, I just find it staggering that anyone could believe that, that something tragic could have happened in the room and that a pair of highly able, highly qualified Doctors would rather cover it up, just dispose of any evidence and then swimmingly come down to dinner, you know particularly when, if there, if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

I find this statement quite interesting also, for two reasons ......

1) On 3 rd May, all the other doctors, with the exception of GM and KM, were at the Paraiso restaurant until at least 6.15 pm (DP, ROB and MO) and FP was there until 6.30 pm, so none of them were actually close to the apartments at all until after these times. O'Brien does not appear to consider that time frame as a possibility for when an accident could have occurred.

2) The statement is also a contradiction in itself ........ If MM had had a fatal accident, then the McCanns would not have needed assistance from other doctors at all (because the accident would have been fatal and because the McCanns, as doctors themselves, would know whether she had died) ...... they would only need medical assistance from the four other doctors if MM had had an accident and was still alive ...... and in that case, why would they be seeking to cover anything up?

by Guest 20.10.16 0:47

It is NO COINCIDENCE that the Paraiso CCTV shots begin at 17:31:35.

by bobbin 20.10.16 10:16

Doug D wrote:Bit more classic Russell from his rog:

‘….the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.’

Must have been so difficult to tell. There were four kids in the crèche that afternoon allegedly, MM, Ella & two boys.

There's a DOUBLE problem with this statement. He says they stayed with their children for their tea, at the PARADISO, by the beach.
He then states he collected Ella, before she went to her tea at the TAPAS BAR .....(which we know is by the pool).

I wondered if possibly he was referring to Madeleine going for HER tea at the Tapas, but no, it's not so, because he previously refers to Kate, Gerry and their kids, without mentioning Madeleine, so the 'her' must refer to Ella, in which case, why is he mixing up where she had her tea and where he had apparently been staying with her.

FGS. girlno

by Doug D 20.10.16 10:37

‘I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar’

Giving Russell the benefit of the doubt here, it depends how you interpret it.

I took it to be he had collected her early, otherwise she would have gone to the Tapas, as usual, for her tea.

by bobbin 20.10.16 10:52

Doug D wrote:‘I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar’

Giving Russell the benefit of the doubt here, it depends how you interpret it.

I took it to be he had collected her early, otherwise she would have gone to the Tapas, as usual, for her tea.

OK, yes, thanks, your interpretation looks right in this case. Did they normally eat at the Tapas, if so then the beach was the odd one out. Fortunately it had a CCTV which shows quite clearly that the McCs were not there. Also, he states they were not there at the Paradiso (Paraiso) spelling?
Back to what you said originally, if there were only four kids at the Ocean Club and he could not state whether Madeleine was there or not then either she was in the bathroom at that moment, or he didn't see her or she was not there.
Given that she was (almost certainly) NOT at the Paradiso, is there any firm reference to particularly place/indicate positively Madeleine at tea at the Tapas, on the Thursday, 3rd May.

by Doug D 20.10.16 11:30

I think this is where we get back to Hideho's thread and the nannie's statements etc.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t11921-was-madeleine-seen-after-sunday-no-credible-evidence-that-she-was-watch-the-video

by G-Unit 20.10.16 11:58

Doug D wrote:‘I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar’

Giving Russell the benefit of the doubt here, it depends how you interpret it.

I took it to be he had collected her early, otherwise she would have gone to the Tapas, as usual, for her tea.

That's so. There are various mentions of Russell's dash to get Ella before she was taken to high tea. He was sailing until at least 4.15pm, then pelted up the hill to collect and sign out his daughter at 5pm. The only problem arising is that he didn't sign her out at 5pm. Catriona Baker did that at 4.30pm. Still, who clock-watches on holiday?

On this occasion we were on the beach and as it got towards five o’clock I, I pelted up the hill to collect Ella before they were taken up to the main complex.....I got in early enough to get Ella out before the end of, well, you know, arrived just before they actually left to go up,....I picked Ella up at five....The Nannies would have taken them up to tea at the Tapas had I not’, well ‘would have taken Ella had I not got in there and signed her out and brought her down to the beach’.....this was, I would imagine would be, you know, quarter past four, half four time, erm, when we probably finished sailing.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

by kaz 20.10.16 12:05

G-Unit wrote:I found this interesting;

1578 “How were they behaving”'
Reply “Absolutely normal, erm you know, there was no, there was no suggestion that anything untoward had happened and they were concealing it, there’s you know I, I just find it staggering that anyone could believe that, that something tragic could have happened in the room and that a pair of highly able, highly qualified Doctors would rather cover it up, just dispose of any evidence and then swimmingly come down to dinner, you know particularly when, if there, if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Has anyone seen anything in the files, the media or elsewhere suggesting that ''something tragic'' happened at the time when the parents were in the apartment and four other doctors were on the tennis courts?

The only time I remember FOUR medically trained friends in the group on the tennis court at the same time was about sixish on the evening of May 3rd. David, Gerry, Russell and Matt . When Russell talks of highly qualified blah blah blah doctors ( I think we're meant to be impressed ) he doesn't actually specify the McCanns. Apart from 'the lads' playing tennis the only other doctors in the group were Fiona and Kate. Wasn't there something said somewhere about Fiona being in the McCann's apartment around this time? Is it possible that Dave and Gerry were summoned in a panic via mobile phone but only Dave could be arsed to see what the problem was?

by Guest 20.10.16 12:46

they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout

He does appear to have a certain moment in time in his head.

by **Tony Bennett** 20.10.16 21:03

kaz wrote:
G-Unit wrote:I found this interesting;

1578    “How were they behaving”'
Reply    “Absolutely normal, erm you know, there was no, there was no suggestion that anything untoward had happened and they were concealing it, there’s you know I, I just find it staggering that anyone could believe that, that something tragic could have happened in the room and that a pair of highly able, highly qualified Doctors would rather cover it up, just dispose of any evidence and then swimmingly come down to dinner, you know particularly when, if there, if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Has anyone seen anything in the files, the media or elsewhere suggesting that ''something tragic'' happened at the time when the parents were in the apartment and four other doctors were on the tennis courts?
The only time I remember FOUR medically trained friends in the group on the tennis court at the same time was about sixish on the evening of May 3rd. David, Gerry, Russell and Matt . When Russell talks of highly qualified blah blah blah doctors ( I think we're meant to be impressed ) he doesn't actually specify the McCanns. Apart from 'the lads' playing tennis the only other doctors in the group were Fiona and  Kate. Wasn't there something said somewhere about Fiona being in the McCann's apartment around this time? Is it possible that Dave and Gerry were summoned in a panic via mobile phone but only Dave could be arsed to see what the problem was?

@ Kaz @ G-Unit This thread has taken us back, as it were, to looking at an incident latish on Thursday 3 May.

As both of you know, there has been a welter of evidence here on CMOMM suggesting that a major incident happened late on Sunday or possibly early on the Monday. We are in danger of hunting around for a time when all four doctors were on the court, whoever those four might be. It could well have been Sunday evening, couldn't it? - it was a fine, sunny day as per the Last Photo.

Upthread I drew attention to Russell O'Brien using the words 'something terrible'. This time he refers to 'something tragic'.

I think he is indeed pointing to a 'terrible, tragic event'.

What was it? - and when was it? I don't think it was on Thursday.

by G-Unit 21.10.16 14:29

All I know is that Russell was being asked to comment on the McCann's behaviour during dinner on 3rd May.

He did have a bit of trouble with the last time he saw Madeleine. He thinks he saw her at lunchtime...then we have three 'when's', one 'sort of' and five 'the's'. Did Russell suffer with a stammer?

1578    “When was the last time you saw Madeleine”'
Reply    “Erm I certainly think I saw her at lunch time on the Thursday, erm when, when sort of Ella, when Ella and her would have come out the, the, the, the, the kids club,

According to Kate she collected Madeleine on Thursday lunchtime with Fiona, who collected her baby. Perhaps Russell saw them?

1578    “When did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday May the third, two thousand and seven”'

''the first time that morning I saw Kate first....was....after they’d had a tennis game''

[This was when the man was photographing his daughter who was in the other Mini-Club group]

''come back out to have a lesson after the, the adults had finished their lesson, so she [Kate] was certainly there then and we were stood out there for, you know a reasonable amount of time, I think then when all the children came back up, I think we saw Madeleine and err, and Sean and Amelie and Gerry and Kate, so over lunch time.''

So the children 'came out' from somewhere to have a tennis lesson from 10.30am-11am. Then all the children came back up and he saw all the McCann family? What does Jane say they did after speaking to the photographing father?

''so Russell, me and Evie walked down to the beach. I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate did then (inaudible) but I don’t know where Kate went at that point, but she didn’t come to the beach with us.....and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”.....I think we just stayed then on the beach and waited to, because Ella, and then waited ‘til sort of half twelve to go and pick Ella up for lunch, erm. So we walked back via the Kids Club and then back up for lunch. And I think that day was the day we had lunch in our apartment with just Matt and Rachael and not Dave and Fi. I think, I think because they’d done the sailing early, I think they might have picked up their kids a bit earlier and given them lunch, you know, beforehand.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

So Russell forgot he went to the beach and saw Madeleine there. He should have seen Gerry playing tennis while the children were being photographed because his tennis group was on the other court, but he's not mentioned. If Jane's right he never saw the twins because they were in their creche when he went to the beach and if Kate went with Fiona to collect Madeleine that was before they came back from the beach and collected their daughter on the way. Was Kate the only one he saw that morning? Jane, of course, says she saw the whole McCann family near the tennis courts at 2,30pm when she and Rachel played tennis.

by JohnyT 21.10.16 21:31

...as an aside...........I go on holiday to GET AWAY from my work colleagues............not that I don't like them, it just wouldn't feel right. I suppose it depends on your line of work?
JohnyT

by G-Unit 22.10.16 7:49

JohnyT wrote:...as an aside...........I go on holiday to GET AWAY from my work colleagues............not that I don't like them, it just wouldn't feel right. I suppose it depends on your line of work?
JohnyT

In some ways it worked, as when Jane describes Thursday after lunch. She and Rachael played tennis while their babies had a nap with the men. Matt watched both babies while Russell took his eldest to Mini-Club. Then the women took the kids and the men went sailing. For them it enhanced their day, they could do more together than as separate couples. They didn't work together or live near each other either.

The McCanns, on the other hand, didn't gain from being with a group. They breakfasted alone, lunched alone and their children were cared for by others every day. They became sociable only without their children, not when they were present. Apart from a little while before bed, that is.

by sandancer 22.10.16 12:34

So why did the McCanns distance themselves from the rest of their holiday group ?
Apart from the nightly meal , the only times they seemed to meet the others was an occasional tennis game , play areas with the kids again occasional!
They went on holiday as part of a group then behaved as if they were on their own , strange the others didn't seem to question this either ?
Russell like the rest becomes a gibbering mess in his statements , "something terrible " and " something tragic " really do stand out why does he feel it necessary to use those phrases ? Yes an abduction is both terrible and tragic , but to me he seems to use the words in connection with the number of doctors that were around and what they could or couldn't have done ? Maybe that's just my interpretation , I always feel I need a stiff drink or headache tablets when I tackle the statements aaagh

by suzyjohnson 22.10.16 19:25

kaz wrote:
G-Unit wrote:I found this interesting;

1578    “How were they behaving”'
Reply    “Absolutely normal, erm you know, there was no, there was no suggestion that anything untoward had happened and they were concealing it, there’s you know I, I just find it staggering that anyone could believe that, that something tragic could have happened in the room and that a pair of highly able, highly qualified Doctors would rather cover it up, just dispose of any evidence and then swimmingly come down to dinner, you know particularly when, if there, if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

Has anyone seen anything in the files, the media or elsewhere suggesting that ''something tragic'' happened at the time when the parents were in the apartment and four other doctors were on the tennis courts?
The only time I remember FOUR medically trained friends in the group on the tennis court at the same time was about sixish on the evening of May 3rd. David, Gerry, Russell and Matt . When Russell talks of highly qualified blah blah blah doctors ( I think we're meant to be impressed ) he doesn't actually specify the McCanns. Apart from 'the lads' playing tennis the only other doctors in the group were Fiona and  Kate. Wasn't there something said somewhere about Fiona being in the McCann's apartment around this time? Is it possible that Dave and Gerry were summoned in a panic via mobile phone but only Dave could be arsed to see what the problem was?

I think there could be something in this, but it would have to be slightly later, say 6.30 pm, the group did not leave the Paraiso restaurant until 6.15 pm (the men) and 6.28 pm (the women).

by skyrocket 22.10.16 20:34

@suzyjohnson - actually, if the cctv times are correct, the women didn't leave until around 6.40pm. Grace was still sitting in a high chair at the Paraiso at 6.36pm. Both her and Scarlet had to be put in to their prams and then had to be carried down the steps from the restaurant, before the group could set off back up to the tennis courts/tapas - a walk of at least 1/2 km which with small children would probably take at least 15 minutes.

Fiona, Dianne and Jane all say in their 4 May statements that they left the restaurant around 6.15pm, which is clearly false.

by **Tony Bennett** 22.10.16 21:06

sandancer wrote:So why did the McCanns distance themselves from the rest of their holiday group? Apart from the nightly meal, the only times they seemed to meet the others was an occasional tennis game , play areas with the kids again occasional!
They went on holiday as part of a group then behaved as if they were on their own, strange the others didn't seem to question this either?

REPLY: Again, this change of routine seems to have happened straight after Sunday. That was when all five were seen all together by a cleaner as they made their way from their apartments to the Paynes' for lunch. After that, they had both breakfast and lunch on their own - why? Why the dramatic change in routine, as you suggest?

And there's another very relevant point; there seems to be no credible sighting of the five together after Sunday. The witness statements seem to suggest that the McCanns left and returned to the apartment separately, a fact consistent with just one parent taking the twins to and from the crèche, but Madeleine being absent. It's yet another line of evidence that points us to Sunday as the day something momentous may have happened.

Russell like the rest becomes a gibbering mess in his statements , "something terrible" and "something tragic" really do stand out - why does he feel it necessary to use those phrases Yes an abduction is both terrible and tragic, but to me he seems to use the words in connection with the number of doctors that were around and what they could or couldn't have done?

REPLY: I think that's a really good point.

by Verdi 23.10.16 0:39

Russell O'Brien is a key player in the charade in my opinion - indeed, all the male members of the group are heavily implicated if their respective witness statements are taken into account. Whilst the feminine force are dancing around on the periphery, largely taking centre stage with their strong vocal influence, the males fade into the background comparatively unnoticed.

Russell O'Brien was very keen during his rogatory interview, to put the onus on his other half by repeatedly referring the police interviewer back to Jane Tanner's statements. Cunning but far from convincing.

Russell O'Brien featured prominently in the tale of the Hampshire tourist who a) objected to the Tapas group photographing his child or b) joined a casual discussion about photographing children generally - depending which version you care to believe, if any.

Russell O'Brien rogatory statement [snipped]

Reply    “Err again, this, having said this to Andy this is sort of, err well in this day and age it was more of a kind of, that was what we were actually discussing at the time saying you know, in this day and age you know you can’t feel, you feel, you feel uncomf, people are made to feel uncomfortable doing what would have been considered normal things in the past. It wasn’t like, I didn’t feel uncomfortable at the time at all, it was just normal conversation, its only in retrospect that it just seems a terrible coincidence.”

4064    “Yeah, it’s that horrible coincidence.”

Reply    “Yeah, I just remember the err, I mean that’s not that I found it most uncomfortable in this day and age, having a discussion about a photograph of your own child, that’s not, that’s not, I don’t know whether that’s just…”

4064    “So what do you want it to say'”

Reply    “I don’t, well, yes it was actually describing what happened, it was, we said you know in this day and age people are made to feel…”

4064    “So if I said we agreed.”

Reply    “Yeah we ag, yeah, the group agreed or you know you can say they were all discussing it, those present agreed that…”

4064    “In this day and age…”

Reply    “In this day and age err photographing your own child could make you feel uncomfortable. I suppose, I don’t know how much of the, that video will be transcribed as well but you know at the time we also made the comment that you know you were more likely to, to sort of be harmed by someone you know rather than, rather than some random stranger and it’s ridiculous.”

4064    “Yeah.”

Reply    “Mm.”

What?

by suzyjohnson 23.10.16 1:38

skyrocket wrote:@suzyjohnson - actually, if the cctv times are correct, the women didn't leave until around 6.40pm. Grace was still sitting in a high chair at the Paraiso at 6.36pm. Both her and Scarlet had to be put in to their prams and then had to be carried down the steps from the restaurant, before the group could set off back up to the tennis courts/tapas - a walk of at least 1/2 km which with small children would probably take at least 15 minutes.

Fiona, Dianne and Jane all say in their 4 May statements that they left the restaurant around 6.15pm, which is clearly false.

Ok.