Faith in Op Grange

rustyjames wrote:I personally try and stay optimistic that there will be a resolution to the case, though after more than seven years of following it almost every day I find it harder.

Maybe I'm over trusting or naiive, but the one thing I find hard to believe in the current climate is that a team the size of OG will not have people currently or previously in it that have not read the files and sites like this and questioned why they are not reviewing other possibilities.  If it's down to the remit, why they are not questioning that?  How can anyone in charge give an answer, even a "because I say so", that will not risk coming back and haunting them one day, à la Hillsborough or CSA?

If other possibilities have not been investigated and irrefutably addressed, and strong evidence of an abduction is not provided, it would be a very thin coat of whitewash for the time and money spent.

My biggest fear is if DaSteelMan is correct with respect to OG, then the political pressure regarding the expense of OG that is now coming from every angle would be enough to close it down with little hope of another future investigation of its size.

There's an interesting blog from Tex regarding this,worth remembering that it's the home office paying for OG and it'll be them and only them that will bring a closer, or more importantly perhaps Cameron will have the final say if its to be closed with out a result.Just can't help thinking the result from the McCann V Amaral and others is linked in all of this.

Okeydokey wrote:

aquila wrote:The way to achieve what I believe is a whitewash is to:

1. Dedicate an enormous team solely to the review, turn it into an investigation and don't mention the remit too much.

2. Give out shedloads of statistics (see Lazz's Nichola's numbers).

3. Show a Crime Watch extravaganza/hanging out of helicopters, digs with dogs etc.

4. Leak how much it's all costing - constantly.

5. Rally up the big whinge from other areas within the MET as to the need for said team to be better deployed in serving the public of London.

6. Give out the message that not every child is afforded the luxury of OG.

7. Get the public to feel sad but agree that it's probably best if it all goes on the back burner.

There you go, OG all done and dusted.

Just my opinion.

Agreed. There's a lot of choreography going on.

Watched the valedictory speeches yesterday, some of it was amazing. We billy / "Just William" getting voted down on his last day of school was brilliant!  Said a long time ago, this is like a jigsaw / mosaic being put together, no one has all the pieces except "you know who" so many layers and no box to look at.  Some participants have been thrown to the wolves, but will we get to hear their screams?  Looking forward to some of the bits from down the side of the sofa reappearing.  (Knox Verdict, Andy Coulson trial, Sovile report - conveniently after the election, etc etc )  There is still a lot to come. 

It's been an interesting 5 years in politics/media, a lot has changed. [Walls of Jerhicho?]  Chris Huhne, Constance Briscoe, Okay, not everyone in power or influence has been brought to book but many have.  Here's hoping more will.

"We are now seeing former detectives speaking out about historical cover-ups ... how long before (someone) @ the 40 strong Op. Grange spill the beans.?
------------------------------------------------------------

And therein lies the 'rub', imo.

I have it 'on authority' that the 'turnover' of 'staff' @ OG is rather larger, than we, officially, 'know'

Just some 'solely dedicated' (specific 'agenda'?) UK police officers, 'left' @ OG, saying 'most probably', 'most pausible', 'most likely' 'EXPLANATION' etc., as a 'conclusion' to a full time, 4 year, £11 1/2 million of UK taxpayers money, 'review/investigation' will be 'slaughtered', on social meedja, quite rightly, as a 'cover up/whitewash' by HM Government (unlimited 'funders' of OG) and MET Police.  

Back to OG 'whistleblowers'

If, IF, OG, 'arrive' at an, er, umm, 'odd' conclusion will one, two, ten, 'police/staff' be ABLE to 'live with that', for 'days, weeks, YEARS' if they possibly KNEW/KNOW the 'investigation' was investigating, OTHER, plausible, 'explanations' with regards a 3 years old child's 'disappearance'?

This is what, i believe, OG is 'grappling' with, right now.

Can they 'risk' it?

DARE they 'risk' it?

Given the MET's recent er, possible 'involvement' of 'cover ups' inside their 'organisation'?

As TB has pointed out "they (the MET) 'investigate'' themselves"

And, of course, there's always those damn 'pesky' Portuguese 'files' to be released, on a SECOND 'shelving' of their 'investigation', should that be the case................... ?

Whatever 'happens', the McCann's will NOT 'get' their 'Certificate of Absolute Absolved Innocence', which they desperately 'crave', to 'proudly' hang on their wall, will they?

ps:The three latest allegations centre on suppressing evidence, hindering or halting investigations and covering up child abuse on behalf of MPs or celebrities.

One of the new claims alleges the Metropolitan Police in central London had gathered "evidence against MPs, judges, media entertainers, police, actors, clergy and others", the IPCC confirmed.

"The file was submitted to start proceedings against those identified and two months later an officer was called in by a senior MPS officer and told to drop the case."

http://news.sky.com/story/1453820/vip-child-abuse-new-police-corruption-claims

Oh dear, OH daer, OH DEAR!

The 'elite, supreme, superior to ALL other UK police forces' (so they 'tell' us!) Metropolitan Police Service 'embroiled' in 'corruption and scandal' .............................AGAIN!

Dosen't get any 'better' for MPS, does it?

rustyjames wrote:I personally try and stay optimistic that there will be a resolution to the case, though after more than seven years of following it almost every day I find it harder.

Maybe I'm over trusting or naiive, but the one thing I find hard to believe in the current climate is that a team the size of OG will not have people currently or previously in it that have not read the files and sites like this and questioned why they are not reviewing other possibilities.  If it's down to the remit, why they are not questioning that?  How can anyone in charge give an answer, even a "because I say so", that will not risk coming back and haunting them one day, à la Hillsborough or CSA?

If other possibilities have not been investigated and irrefutably addressed, and strong evidence of an abduction is not provided, it would be a very thin coat of whitewash for the time and money spent.

My biggest fear is if DaSteelMan is correct with respect to OG, then the political pressure regarding the expense of OG that is now coming from every angle would be enough to close it down with little hope of another future investigation of its size.

thanks for replying James.

1) How do you know the officers and detectives in Operation Grange have not read the files?

thanks for replying James.

1) How do you know the officers and detectives in Operation Grange have not read the files?
--------------------------------

I fear you have 'misread' rustyjames 'quote'

rj wrote:

"........I find hard to believe in the current climate is that a team the size of OG will not have people currently or previously in it that have not read the files..."

rj 'finds' it hard to believe OG 'staff' HAVE NOT 'read the files'.

Pedantic, i know, BUT DCI Redwood has TOLD 'the world' HIS 'team' absolutely enthusiastically 'scrutinised' the PJ 'files', to the nth degree, which 'provided' for him and the OG dedicated 'team', 195 'investigative opportunities'

Pity, EX DCI Redwood didn't APPEAR to 're-scrutinise' the T9 'statements', with the er, umm, y'know, same 'enthusiasm'!

all, imo, 'obviously'!

eta: Do we 'think' that DP 'told' ex DCI Redwood (or indeed, current, lead investigator, DCI Wall @OG) the 'few things' he 'considered, pertinent and relevant, to establish the material truth' (about the 'disappearance' of a 3 years old child, from PDL, Portugal)?

And what did DCI Redwood 'do' with that 'information' from DP?

What is DCI Wall 'doing' with that 'information' from DP?

IF, IF, DP has 'TOLD' them!

And IF he 'hasn't, shouldn't DCI Wall, be 'demanding' (under 'caution'?) that he does?

And, AND, shouldn't G&KM, the desperate parents, of a 'missing' child, be 'beating DP's door down' for him to tell THEM, the 'few things' (pertinent, relevant and material) he wouldn't, and didn't, tell Leicestershire Police about their 'missing' child's 'disappearance'?

Interesting discussion....

The Home Secretary opened the review and continues to fund the review / investigation.
Whether it will be closed or continued has to be down to DC..
Whether it reveals truth, partial truth or lies is surely down to DC.

As another poster pointed out the other day, if it is closed or performs a whitewash, that closure / whitewash will simply be one step in a continuing process... whtewash today.. truth tomorrow (or at some stage).

The only way to put this to bed properly is to produce the truth - is DC up to that?

The Home Secretary opened the review
--------------------------------------

The Home Secretary, T May, was er, umm,'threatened' with front page 'exposures' about HER, until she er, 'relented', by RB,  and did DC's 'bidding'

Possibly after him having a 'country supper' with the Brooks.

The Home Secretary, T May, was er 'persuaded' by RB/CM, NI (and Murdoch?), to supply, ensure, 'unlimited taxpayer funding' to instigate a 'review' which CHANGED to an 'investigation', (McS never 'saw that coming', imo) which has NEVER been 'explained' by the Home Office OR the MPS.

Afaik, to date, the HS, T May seems to have been rather 'incurious', these past 4 YEARS, about the case she has authorised 'unlimited taxpayers  funding' for.

However, she, T May 'knows' that she and DC will be 'right in the frame' should the case they 'champion', go 'pear shaped'

Hence the 'focus' on 'something, anything', to avoid THAT, at ANY 'cost'!

Even to the extent of 'appointing' a known McCann 'sympathiser' BHH, after Stephenson, as MET Commissioner, THE ultimate 'big cheese' for OG?

£11 1/2 MILLION, to date!

"INCURIOUS GEORGE" (Entwhistle) DG @ the BBC regards SaVILE.

"INCURIOUS THERESA" (May) HS @ the Home Office regards McCanns?

jeanmonroe wrote:
"........I find hard to believe in the current climate is that a team the size of OG will not have people currently or previously in it that have not read the files..."

rj 'finds' it hard to believe OG 'staff' HAVE NOT 'read the files'.

Exactly - in fact the whole sentence wasn't so much finding it improbable that members of the team hadn't read the files or been aware of discussions on sites like this, as I'm sure they have, but more that they wouldn't have then also questioned the lines of enquiry or remit if their scope was restricted, and what kind of answer could have been supplied to them.

The story of our faith in operacao casa velha.
 
Long, long time ago there was a leader of a nation that send a urgent message to his men, we need to win a race so get me a horse.
 
A lady of his clan said, okay, i will ask for a horse, so she send out a message to the stables please send me a horse.
 
What horse do you need milady? I do not mind, any horse will do, so the message was send out through the continent: our leader need a horse, any will one will do.
 
Somewhere on the iberian peninsula a small nation said, ho ho, we are the master of all the horses of this kind. But okay, for old times sake we will look into your horse quest.
 
After a lot of talking this little nation decide to send out a old criple nag, because that is what any horse will do is, just that one you won’t miss. They had tried and tested this horse for a long time and it was not fit for their own quest.
 
Over the sea, in the land of the leader, there was hurrah everywhere, the horse is found, let bring it to the start!
 
Okay, said the horse master bring it to my stables and i will train it.
 
As you can not look a given horse at his teeth, the horse master just did what he promised. And so the story of a horse called operação casa velha started.
 
But any time the stable master brought the horse out to race it, it was still cripple, month after month , year after year, the old cripple nag was brought to the start but every time is did go out, it was taken out as unfit to race.
 
So 4 years later and the any horse will do did not get to take up racing. Every man in the street could see why and should have known, that sending a cripple old nag to the start, would be useless. For racing you need a fit horse!
 
Except there were 2 citizens that still keep on screaming: you have to look into this horse, keep up his training, even if the fee is to high, it must start, we know it have to. This is not any horse, this is the any horse that will do. We know it cann! Why, just because we told you so!
 
But it was not the horse for a leader to bring the nation proud, he did send his best people to get the horse in and train it, feed it and pamper it, to the best, by the best.
The stable master even give it a female jockey. 
But in the end the old crippled nag would never be fit to race at all.
 
So they get very nervous, the people of the nation let go their believe in the any horse that will do. So what now?
 
Lets paint it white so it looks nice and shining, said the painter, no that would not work, said a stable lad,it still would be cripple. Better to kill all the other horses in the race, so only this horse could win, said the butcher. But that would look to obvious, the people would not accept that, said the stable master.
 
Okay, said a little voice, lets run it in smoke and fog, we just tell the people how good it had raced, even nobody could have seen it run, they will believe it, they always will believe what we tell them. So it always has been and always will be.
 
And so the old crippled nag was brought out to race under cover of a smokescreen, and the story of his well run race was outed to the people of the nation and all of then did believe it.
 
The singers and musicians made it known through the whole of the nation, even the swans and ducks in the ponds of scotland had heard it!
The 2 happy citizens said as a comment: See, we told you so, this was a very good horse, it won the race, it was doable, we always keep faith in this horse. We always said it was a winner and it was.
 
And for now all people of brittain, get your eyes shut, shut up your mouths and let your fingers rest from the keyboard  and sleep well. And tomorrow we bring you the story of the piedpiper in parlement. Nighty night to you all!

What a cracking post, Onehand!

Thank you.

I wonder what is said about Operation Grange on the "closed online forum for serving or ex-Met staff" ...

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5433/paedophile-operations-ex-police-to-submit-dossier-to-met-chief

cbeagle wrote:I wonder what is said about Operation Grange on the "closed online forum for serving or ex-Met staff" ...

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5433/paedophile-operations-ex-police-to-submit-dossier-to-met-chief

You don't have to 'wonder' what 'serving' and ex MET police 'staff' are saying in 'closed' online forums, here's a 'comment' from a serving MET police officer, posted on an OPEN online forum.............HERE!

"OG and Redwood are a f**king embarrassment, a f**king JOKE, to all us honest serving MET cops and MPS"

Now WHY would a serving MET cop, say THAT?

Going to the original thread title.

Faith in Operation Grange.

I lack any faith, just as I lack faith in the media, the government and those who make a mint out of writing about the demise of a little girl for their own financial reward.

"OG and Redwood are a f**king embarrassment, a f**king JOKE, to all us honest serving MET cops and MPS"

If they didn't start with the bleedin' obvious then they are a f joke.

Commander Simon Foy was in charge of the Jill Dando review and also in charge of the McCann review.

rustyjames wrote:

jeanmonroe wrote:
"........I find hard to believe in the current climate is that a team the size of OG will not have people currently or previously in it that have not read the files..."

rj 'finds' it hard to believe OG 'staff' HAVE NOT 'read the files'.

Exactly - in fact the whole sentence wasn't so much finding it improbable that members of the team hadn't read the files or been aware of discussions on sites like this, as I'm sure they have, but more that they wouldn't have then also questioned the lines of enquiry or remit if their scope was restricted, and what kind of answer could have been supplied to them.

They should have read the files.

It takes a lot of chutzpah for the British to come riding in like  White Knight on a steed thereby inferring that the Portuguese didn't know what they were doing - the poor fools. We are here to save you from ridicule.

Not only had they ( the Portuguese ) misled sad Brunty and his acolytes, it also looked like they had misled themselves.

For my money Mr Amaral and his merry men were ( and are no fools) on the right lines.

The greatest diversion was to discredit the initial investigation. They succeeded but only for British public consumption.

It is the reason why  no publisher would have touched Amaral's book with a bargepole.

The PR battle has always been between the UK and the rest of the world. Not even in the US has The Truth of the Lie been published in
English. Only through the net has an English version been seen.

This is the game being played in the media.

In the real world the PJ SY and others need more evidence to secure a solid conviction.

The public ( read British ) remit is to investigate as if THE ABDUCTION  happened in the UK.

Generally parents do not abduct their own children unless their is a problem. Madeleine's parents did not have that problem ergo " abduction "
takes on a separate and very clear meaning. i.e. - It wasn't the parents.

This inevitably leads to the public statement that the parents are not being investigated- despite reading the files etc etc.

If they  ( there is that possibility of the other 7 being investigated by the way) are not being investigated then some ' others ' are.

As yet the ' others ' have produced a big fat zero. The question for SY and the PJ is where do you go now?

Personally I don't see where the investigation can go other than back on the shelf.

The ball lies firmly in the Portuguese's court. They either accept more wild goose chases or they don't.

Or they defend the initial investigation and add their own evidence to it or they declare that there is not enough evidence to take any process to the Criminal Courts for a successful prosecution and shelve it pending better evidence.

The decisions to do X and Y has always been in the Portuguese Governments hands.

They knackered it up in the first place by getting rid of Amaral and only they can undo the stupidity of that.

All opinion though.

Just something to add. I am on my own on this.

I think arrests will be made almost immediately after Lisbon damages trial result is known.

DaSteelMan wrote:Just something to add. I am on my own on this.

I think arrests will be made almost immediately after Lisbon damages trial result is known.

I do hope so.  Do you believe the arrests will happen whatever the outcome of the court case?  Why not arrest now?

DaSteelMan wrote:Just something to add. I am on my own on this.

I think arrests will be made almost immediately after Lisbon damages trial result is known.

I hope you 're right ! I also tend to think that the outcome of the Lisbon trial is a milestone which will have to be reached before the Police investigation proceeds.

I would hope something happens soon after the outcome. 

Ladyinred wrote:

DaSteelMan wrote:Just something to add. I am on my own on this.

I think arrests will be made almost immediately after Lisbon damages trial result is known.

I do hope so.  Do you believe the arrests will happen whatever the outcome of the court case?  Why not arrest now?

Good afternoon,

Yea, I do believe arrests will happen whatever the outcome, although I think its almost certain Amaral will win.

I think the results of the court case will benefit Operation Grange on the British public psyche when arrests are made.  You have to bear in mind, once the truth outs it will be a MASSIVE shock to the Great British public, probably the biggest shock to the Great British mindset since the death of Princess Diana. The inevitable verdict in the Lisbon Damages trial will aid this.

Secondly, I believe it is an ideal situation for Operation Grange and PJ to see Amaral win his case on a personal level for him, before the arrests and media circus.

Thanks for your reply, DaSteelMan.  Hope you continue posting here

It would appear from an Express article (quoted in topic on the forum, "Yes, it's time to stop looking for Maddie") that the MCs want OG to continue.

DaSteelMan wrote:Just something to add. I am on my own on this.

I think arrests will be made almost immediately after Lisbon damages trial result is known.

@DaSteelMan

I wonder what makes you think that?

A hunch, maybe?

Given that you are in a prophetic frame of mind about the case, could you perhaps add more detail, e.g.

1. Will arrests be made in the U.K., or in Portugal, or both?

2. Will charges foillow the arrests?

3. Who exactly will be arrested, the McCanns, the schizophrenic bloke, the teenager, smelly bin-man, or some burglars?

4. Where will the trial take place?

Thanks

Tony Bennett wrote:

DaSteelMan wrote:Just something to add. I am on my own on this.

I think arrests will be made almost immediately after Lisbon damages trial result is known.

@DaSteelMan

I wonder what makes you think that?

A hunch, maybe?

Given that you are in a prophetic frame of mind about the case, could you perhaps add more detail, e.g.

1. Will arrests be made in the U.K., or in Portugal, or both?

2. Will charges foillow the arrests?

3. Who exactly will be arrested, the McCanns, the schizophrenic bloke, the teenager, smelly bin-man, or some burglars?

4. Where will the trial take place?

Thanks

Hi Tony,

I would like to thank you for the work you brought to the masses.  Your material was/is invaluable for myself and probably 1000s of others.  

It is a hunch I had at back in Autumn 2013 and the hunch has looked more and more likely since then.  

1. Will arrests be made in the U.K., or in Portugal, or both?

Both

2. Will charges foillow the arrests?

Some will, some maybe released

3. Who exactly will be arrested, the McCanns, the schizophrenic bloke, the teenager, smelly bin-man, or some burglars?

I believe between 6-16 will be arrested and it will include persons who holidayed at Ocean Club; ex employees of OC and persons who assisted PJ in 2007.  A second phase of arrests may then lead to a total of upto 20 arrests.

4. Where will the trial take place?

I think the main trial will take place at the Old Bailey, in England. 

DaSteelMan wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

DaSteelMan wrote:Just something to add. I am on my own on this.

I think arrests will be made almost immediately after Lisbon damages trial result is known.

@DaSteelMan

I wonder what makes you think that?

A hunch, maybe?

Given that you are in a prophetic frame of mind about the case, could you perhaps add more detail, e.g.

1. Will arrests be made in the U.K., or in Portugal, or both?

2. Will charges foillow the arrests?

3. Who exactly will be arrested, the McCanns, the schizophrenic bloke, the teenager, smelly bin-man, or some burglars?

4. Where will the trial take place?

Thanks

Hi Tony,

I would like to thank you for the work you brought to the masses.  Your material was/is invaluable for myself and probably 1000s of others.  

It is a hunch I had at back in Autumn 2013 and the hunch has looked more and more likely since then.  

1. Will arrests be made in the U.K., or in Portugal, or both?

Both

2. Will charges foillow the arrests?

Some will, some maybe released

3. Who exactly will be arrested, the McCanns, the schizophrenic bloke, the teenager, smelly bin-man, or some burglars?

I believe between 6-16 will be arrested and it will include persons who holidayed at Ocean Club; ex employees of OC and persons who assisted PJ in 2007.  A second phase of arrests may then lead to a total of up to 20 arrests.

4. Where will the trial take place?

I think the main trial will take place at the Old Bailey, in England. 

@ DaSteelMan

Many thanks for your replies.

And Peace