Open & transparent

by cbeagle 07.02.15 17:42

Anyone know how Operation Grange's openness and transparency will be manifested?

Given the current climate of police forces' allegedly covering up various crimes, Grange surely has to disclose, at some point, why the Tapas 9 were not re-interviewed to clear up their many apparent inconsistencies?

I mean it does seem a natural starting point for Grange, interview the people around Madeleine at the time she disappeared.

Have there been any FOI requests related to this, not asking for what might have been said by various witnesses, but around the decisions of what to look at, who to investigate?

by PMR 07.02.15 17:45

Do we know that the Tapas 9 haven't been re questioned ?

by Liz Eagles 07.02.15 21:37

PMR wrote:Do we know that the Tapas 9 haven't been re questioned ?

This is a very interesting question.

The investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine is a live investigation in two countries. What authority does the UK police actually possess to question the Tapasniks?

PJ is still the lead in the investigation isn't it?

by ScarletLaw 07.02.15 23:34

I'm sending her a copy of Evil Under the Sun. Might ring some bells!

by cbeagle 08.02.15 0:45

aquila wrote:
PMR wrote:Do we know that the Tapas 9 haven't been re questioned ?
What authority does the UK police actually possess to question the Tapasniks?

Wouldn't the Tapas 9 be very willing to try & help solve the mystery of Madeleine's "abduction", so would freely talk to the UK police to help clear up inconsistencies, since the PJ did such a terrible job?

Of course, I do wonder if the only way to resolve this would be to interview the Tapas 9 without them having the ability to communicate with each other, and have UK detectives (solely to avoid the language issues) hammer on their statements and why stories changed, inconsistencies exist etc etc.

by ScarletLaw 08.02.15 8:44

Grange know that Teresa May has hidden the statements from Carolyn Carpenter and other Tapas witnesses that proves Gerry and the group actually left at 9.45 and therefore have no intention of delivering a fair result. I have as much faith in Grange as I have in Father Christmas being real.

by Liz Eagles 08.02.15 9:20

As far as I see the situation, no-one is entirely sure of the exact powers OG has. To my knowledge it's not been explained nor identified. The remit is a big dodgy area too.

There's a big PR stunt which wangles its way through OG's presence. The UK general public, fed by the UK media which is fed by.... is told to buy into the theme of 'Scotland Yard, the best in the world, will get to the bottom of this and get justice for one of ours as the Portuguese sardine munchers are incapable'.

LIR's abound as and when it suits.

The BIG question is what exactly is the power of OG in the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann?

In the interests of transparency that's a good opening question for OG to answer is it not?

If I were a cynic (heaven forbid) I'd liken this to a game of table tennis. The PJ seem to have re-activated the case after shelving it so readers are told, having pronounced the case will only be re-opened on production of new evidence. Take a deep breath and listen to the drum roll...Scotland Yard have come up with 'fresh evidence' in Andrew Redwood's 'revelation moment' and subsequent media spectacular.

To the public this is what is being purported as 'new evidence'. The PJ seem to have reactivated the case but there are, how can I put it, 'problems' with just about everything as to the relationship with the PJ and SY all the pesky protocol and bureaucracy.

It's a created mangled, media mess (MMM). It's a created mangled media mess supported by UK and Portuguese governments.

Just my opinion.

by Monty Heck 08.02.15 10:03

PMR wrote:Do we know that the Tapas 9 haven't been re questioned ?

If they had been it would surely have been reported. If it got out they were interviewed and not publicly declared innocent of involvement they would have been left vulnerable to suspicion and speculation. That could be a reason for not interviewing them. Given the profile of this case
would possibly be highly detrimental to their rights to take them in for questioning without cast iron evidence, which in itself might be impossible to obtain without questioning, so catch 22. Aside from the government protection conspiracy theory logic dictates this is why they have interviewed everyone else apart from the T9. Having said this it's hard to comprehend quite what is keeping the OG team occupied on a full time basis for so long.

by Casey5 08.02.15 10:21

ScarletLaw wrote:Grange know that Teresa May has hidden the statements from Carolyn Carpenter and other Tapas witnesses that proves Gerry and the group actually left at 9.45 and therefore have no intention of delivering a fair result. I have as much faith in Grange as I have in Father Christmas being real.

How on earth would you know that Theresa May has hidden statements?
What would be the point as the PJ have all of the statements anyway and I bet Goncalo Amaral still has friends in the force who keep him abreast of developments?
The PJ, if they wanted or needed to, could easily bring up the timelines in one of the meetings they have had or will have with SYard. They're not secret these timelines or statements.
If OG don't deliver a fair result they could be either in cahoots with the PJ or could be challenged by them.
Either way, I reckon it will be plain to see. Whether any of us can change things is another matter entirely.
Just think of Hillsborough or any of the big events where corruption is involved. It takes years and years to actually get the government to do anything and then it's hoped that everyone pushing heavily for answers either gets too worn down to go on or gets old and dies.
We are only a tiny minority of the public who, on the whole, would accept any verdict given by the police even if they think the whole thing is a bit iffy. It's people who are personally involved who battle on, like relatives of the deceased. So poor little Madeleine would have no chance of justice there then.

by woodforthetrees 09.02.15 10:42

Monty Heck wrote:
PMR wrote:Do we know that the Tapas 9 haven't been re questioned ?
If they had been it would surely have been reported. SY would not publicly report this for a number of reasons, mainly because it it a live investigation, therefore confidential, but also for the safety of the tapas group, not to mention the gagging orders in place. If it got out they were interviewed and not publicly declared innocent of involvement they already have been declared innocent by SY they would have been left vulnerable to suspicion and speculation. That could be a reason for not interviewing them. Given the profile of this case would possibly be highly detrimental to their rights to take them in for questioning without cast iron evidence, not really, they could interview them as witnesses which in itself might be impossible to obtain without questioning, so catch 22. Aside from the government protection conspiracy theory logic dictates this is why they have interviewed everyone else apart from the T9. You are assuming they haven't been questioned as part of the review by OG just because it is not in the media. Having said this it's hard to comprehend quite what is keeping the OG team occupied on a full time basis for so long. IMO the search for the body and tracking down the perp they have in mind, or have evidence on

by G-Unit 09.02.15 11:07

Casey5 wrote:
ScarletLaw wrote:Grange know that Teresa May has hidden the statements from Carolyn Carpenter and other Tapas witnesses that proves Gerry and the group actually left at 9.45 and therefore have no intention of delivering a fair result. I have as much faith in Grange as I have in Father Christmas being real.
How on earth would you know that Theresa May has hidden statements?
What would be the point as the PJ have all of the statements anyway and I bet Goncalo Amaral still has friends in the force who keep him abreast of developments?
The PJ, if they wanted or needed to, could easily bring up the timelines in one of the meetings they have had or will have with SYard. They're not secret these timelines or statements.

I don't know about anyone hiding anything, but some information is being ignored and some is not in the PJ Files;

Madeleine may have been discovered missing as early as 21.20pm according to some witnesses;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

There do appear to be missing statements. Some are about sex offenders, but also some original statements and all the Crimewatch information;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm

by Casey5 09.02.15 21:03

G-Unit wrote:
snipped
I don't know about anyone hiding anything, but some information is being ignored and some is not in the PJ Files;

Madeleine may have been discovered missing as early as 21.20pm according to some witnesses;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

There do appear to be missing statements. Some are about sex offenders, but also some original statements and all the Crimewatch information;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MISSING_PAGES.htm

There may be case files that have not been released by the PJ, not what I would call "missing" just "not released to the general public".
That's not to say that Scotland Yard haven't been given a copy or, at least, have been shown these files.
The PJ will know everything there is to know about the files they hold, and Scotland Yard may also know or, indeed, not know.
Let's hope Goncalo Amaral has been given all of the information on the case, I trust him to reveal or not as he sees fit.

by Monty Heck 09.02.15 21:32

woodforthetrees wrote:
Monty Heck wrote:
PMR wrote:Do we know that the Tapas 9 haven't been re questioned ?
If they had been it would surely have been reported. SY would not publicly report this for a number of reasons, mainly because it it a live investigation, therefore confidential, but also for the safety of the tapas group, not to mention the gagging orders in place. If it got out they were interviewed and not publicly declared innocent of involvement they already have been declared innocent by SY they would have been left vulnerable to suspicion and speculation. That could be a reason for not interviewing them. Given the profile of this case would possibly be highly detrimental to their rights to take them in for questioning without cast iron evidence, not really, they could interview them as witnesses which in itself might be impossible to obtain without questioning, so catch 22. Aside from the government protection conspiracy theory logic dictates this is why they have interviewed everyone else apart from the T9. You are assuming they haven't been questioned as part of the review by OG just because it is not in the media. Having said this it's hard to comprehend quite what is keeping the OG team occupied on a full time basis for so long. IMO the search for the body and tracking down the perp they have in mind, or have evidence on

I may well have this wrong but has OG authority to interview witnesses domiciled in the UK? From what I have gathered all interviews have taken place in Portugal via the PJ under letters rogatory. All under a blaze of publicity so hard to see that secret interviews have been carried out by OG in the UK. At whose request _ the PJ? Understand OG have said they aren't currently looking at T9 but that's not a declaration of innocence. If they had been interviewed and definitively ruled out by OG no question the media would have been all over the story. Nothing to suggest they have been questioned so far.

by **Tony Bennett** 09.02.15 22:15

Monty Heck wrote:I may well have this wrong but has OG authority to interview witnesses domiciled in the UK? From what I have gathered all interviews have taken place in Portugal...All under a blaze of publicity...

It might depend on what you mean by 'interviews'.

On the record, we know that two British citizens and at least one Irish citizen have been 'interviewed', namely:

1. Dr Kate McCann
2. Dr Gerald McCann, and
3. Mr Martin Smith.

Drs Kate and Gerald McCann have had interviews with Operation Grange, so far as we know, from time to time, 'to keep them abreast of developments in the case'. The Prime Minister's spokesman said on the day Operation Grange was set up (12 May 2011) that OG was 'to help the family' and later DCI Andy Redwood said that neither the McCanns nor any of their friends were suspects in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann from Praia da Luz. So keeping them informed about the investigation is in line with those statements.

As for Martin Smith, all we know on the record is that he (possibly other members of his family, but we don't know) met DCI Redwood at least once in 2012 and once in 2013. We don't know where they met. We don't know if other members of Martin Smith's family were there. We don't know what they discussed.

I think it must have been something like this:

"Look, these e-fits you drew up sometime in 2008 with that former Head of MI5 covert intelligence, Henri Exton, you know, Kevin Halligen's sidekick, the bloke brought in by Brian Kennedy to try to find Madeleine - which look like two quite different men - are you OK with us telling millions of people in Britain on a BBC Crimewatch programme that these really are two likenesses of the bloke you say you all saw for a few seconds on a dark night in Portugal back in 2007?".

I guess Smith replied something like: "Well, OK, if you think our humble recollections are that important to your investigation, then, fine, go ahead!"

by TheTruthWillOut 09.02.15 22:21

Wasn't there a woman residing in the UK that was interviewed by OG in the last wave?

by joyce1938 10.02.15 10:19

Think that they were interviewed back in Britain ,and some of the pj were sent over to sit in on them . It was said that the british ,even gave the tapas 7 their last interview to read to refresh their memory of what they said at other meeting . WEll that must have been very helpful ,so not to muck it all up .I believe this will be on line here somewhere. joyce1938

by jeanmonroe 10.02.15 12:52

joyce1938 wrote:Think that they were interviewed back in Britain ,and some of the pj were sent over to sit in on them . It was said that the british ,even gave the tapas 7 their last interview to read to refresh their memory of what they said at other meeting . WEll that must have been very helpful ,so not to muck it all up .I believe this will be on line here somewhere. joyce1938

"I have been informed that these questions arise from an official request from the Portuguese authorities. I am aware that my statement will be subject to the Portuguese Criminal Code in addition to English Law".

"I have been informed that this statement has been made from the monitoring notes which were taken at the time of the interviews being conducted".

"I have been given the opportunity to refresh my memory from the statement made by Jane TANNER (my wife) and I have been allowed to see these documents,, this was done in the presence of DC 1578 GIERC."

"I wish to add that Jane’s statement covered our routine from the 28th April 2007-2nd May 2007 quite comprehensively and my original Portuguese statement referred to Jane’s statement, this was therefore a good point of reference for me."

...referred to Jane’s statement, this was therefore a good point of reference for me."

I BET IT WAS, I JUST BET IT WAS!

Ref:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

by woodforthetrees 10.02.15 13:09

Monty Heck wrote:
I may well have this wrong but has OG authority to interview witnesses domiciled in the UK? Yes, it is a UK investigation, therefore can question UK residents on UK soil From what I have gathered all interviews have taken place in Portugal via the PJ under letters rogatory. For Portuguese residents on Portuguese soil All under a blaze of publicity so hard to see that secret interviews have been carried out by OG in the UK. How many of the thousands of cases SY work on have you seen interviews performed in public? none. The tapas group and SY would not want the glare of publicity therefore would hold any questioning behind closed doors. Besides, gagging orders stop details regarding tapas and the McCanns and the investigation being published At whose request _ the PJ? No, SY, it is a UK investigation!Understand OG have said they aren't currently looking at T9 but that's not a declaration of innocence. Eh? so how is that a declaration of guilt? If they had been interviewed and definitively ruled out by OG (they have) no question the media would have been all over the story. Gagging order, so no. Nothing to suggest they have been questioned so far. Apart from the fact that they are in the UK, SY are in the UK, they have been looking at everything in the case for the last 3 years and have not charged them with anything! Are you suggesting they just sit twiddling their thumbs then after say 5yrs suddenly say "you know what we should do lads... we should maybe interview the tapas group, you know the ones we cleared years ago". Totally illogical.

by j.rob 10.02.15 15:02

How can they have been ruled out? They are so obviously guilty of not telling the truth about what happened in my opinion. It's just so obvious. Why is this charade continuing? It's sheer madness.

by joyce1938 10.02.15 15:38

\\\\\\\\\\\\\hi I am not suggesting that the interview has taken place in the last few y,,ears ,it occurred possably soon after they returned from the holiday in Portugal . portuguese were offered to come over and sit in on it ,sorry I do wish I knew how to bring up things on line ,but I am sure someone else here would know this too ,ofcourse an awfull lot of the older members don't seem to post here now ,I realize this happens from time to time ,and when something comes up that is of more interest ,they come back . So very little to be said here now ,and that's the reason that some stuff is getting bad amongst the different sites , I really do not like this in fighting being going on of late .joyce1938.

by woodforthetrees 10.02.15 15:52

j.rob wrote:How can they have been ruled out? They are so obviously guilty of not telling the truth about what happened in my opinion. It's just so obvious. Why is this charade continuing? It's sheer madness.

J-Rob, they can be ruled out based on the FULL evidence SY have on their files and the results of their review and subsequent investigations.

Agreed, they have not been truthful (IMO the entire child checking was entirely made up and they neglected their children all evening, every evening) and have changed stories to cover themselves against neglect charges, BUT, if SY had them in the frame for the murder/disposal of the body, they would've had them in by now. They have publicly stated that the McCanns and the tapas are not persons of interest and are looking for a lone intruder.

The charade is fueled by money hungry media, various court cases brought on by the McCanns and internet speculation, unfortunately.

Agreed, it is utter madness, but until they locate the body or the perp, the investigation into the disappearance (by not the parents involvement) continues.

by woodforthetrees 10.02.15 15:54

joyce1938 wrote:\\\\\\\\\\\\\hi I am not suggesting that the interview has taken place in the last few y,,ears ,it occurred possably soon after they returned from the holiday in Portugal . portuguese were offered to come over and sit in on it ,sorry I do wish I knew how to bring up things on line ,but I am sure someone else here would know this too ,ofcourse an awfull lot of the older members don't seem to post here now ,I realize this happens from time to time ,and when something comes up that is of more interest ,they come back . So very little to be said here now ,and that's the reason that some stuff is getting bad amongst the different sites , I really do not like this in fighting being going on of late .joyce1938.

Hi Joyce, no fighting intended and apologies if it read that way (i am in work so can only do quick replies).

I have no doubt that all parties were re-interviewed as part of the OG review process, to clarify the statements, unpick any translation errors and tie up any loose ends. Unfortunately, as the case is a live investigation, we, the general public, would not have any visibility of these discussions.

by Liz Eagles 10.02.15 16:02

woodforthetrees wrote:
joyce1938 wrote:\\\\\\\\\\\\\hi I am not suggesting that the interview has taken place in the last few y,,ears ,it occurred possably soon after they returned from the holiday in Portugal . portuguese were offered to come over and sit in on it ,sorry I do wish I knew how to bring up things on line ,but I am sure someone else here would know this too ,ofcourse an awfull lot of the older members don't seem to post here now ,I realize this happens from time to time ,and when something comes up that is of more interest ,they come back . So very little to be said here now ,and that's the reason that some stuff is getting bad amongst the different sites , I really do not like this in fighting being going on of late .joyce1938.

Hi Joyce, no fighting intended and apologies if it read that way (i am in work so can only do quick replies).

I have no doubt that all parties were re-interviewed as part of the OG review process, to clarify the statements, unpick any translation errors and tie up any loose ends. Unfortunately, as the case is a live investigation, we, the general public, would not have any visibility of these discussions.

How do you have no doubt?

It's not clear what the remit is.

It's absolutely unclear what Scotland Yard's authority is.

You speak of review process and that's interesting. Do you think Scotland Yard had more power in the 'review process' to question everyone present in PDL at the time of Madeleine's disappearance than they have in a live investigation?

Very interesting point of view. I don't share it.

by j.rob 10.02.15 16:06

woodforthetrees wrote:
j.rob wrote:How can they have been ruled out? They are so obviously guilty of not telling the truth about what happened in my opinion. It's just so obvious. Why is this charade continuing? It's sheer madness.

J-Rob, they can be ruled out based on the FULL evidence SY have on their files and the results of their review and subsequent investigations.

I refuse to accept that the McCanns and the Tapas are ruled out. Not in my book they are not. SY know they are guilty of far more than neglect I am sure. They cannot be that thick. Madeleine's disappearance has all the hallmarks of an 'insider job' and none of the hallmarks of the extremely rare 'stranger abduction.'

Agreed, they have not been truthful (IMO the entire child checking was entirely made up and they neglected their children all evening, every evening) and have changed stories to cover themselves against neglect charges,

Their involvement is far more than merely 'neglect', imo. It is far worse than that. The FACT that they have all been so forthright about their negligence is EVIDENCE as far as I am concerned that they are guilty of far worse. And have covered it up. And the police know, imo.

BUT, if SY had them in the frame for the murder/disposal of the body, they would've had them in by now. They have publicly stated that the McCanns and the tapas are not persons of interest and are looking for a lone intruder.

So this would mean that the entire police operation is a cover-up. A complete charade. A whitewash.

The charade is fueled by money hungry media, various court cases brought on by the McCanns and internet speculation, unfortunately.

How about media speculation? Been plenty of that, eh? The charade fuelled also by the Mcs desperation to clear their names. Which appears to be working if SY really are pretending that Madeleine was stolen by a random burglar. Astonishing. The 'abduction' has all the hallmarks of a fake - faked by the parents and their friends. Every single indicator is there.

Agreed, it is utter madness, but until they locate the body or the perp, the investigation into the disappearance (by not the parents involvement) continues.

You know as well as everybody else that it is highly unlikely there is any body to locate. Gerry: "find the body and prove we killed her."

The perp? Singular? No evidence of that. The perpetrators - plural - Gerry McCann, David Payne, imo, probably other male tapas and, i suspect, some involvement of other 'guests' at the OC that week who are/were known to the McCanns.

I dread to think what sort of 'holiday' it was. Most certainly not a holiday for that poor child.

Not the parents involvement, you say?

Totally disagree. There is every indication that they are involved and at least some of their friends. And they all covered up what really happened. With very high level support. Which continues to this day. Hence the police whitewash - so far.

Eventually, it will all come out, imo.

by j.rob 10.02.15 16:14

BUT, if SY had them in the frame for the murder/disposal of the body, they would've had them in by now. They have publicly stated that the McCanns and the tapas are not persons of interest and are looking for a lone intruder.

-------

How can the parents and the last people who saw Madeleine not be people of interest? This must be the only police operation on earth which has declared that the people likely to be of most interest are of no interest.

A lone intruder? What, a bit like the lone rider?

What motive did the lone intruder have, then?

We know that nothing of value was stolen from the apartment as the McCann family have told us this?