Madeleine as a little pumpkin

I really can't believe that Madeleine was a Halloween sacrifice.

But it makes me wonder, is Halloween done much in the UK? I ask because I live in the US and from friends who have been abroad, I get the sense that it's only recently become "a thing" like it is over here, i.e., kids' costumes, trick-or-treat, etc.

I can say that I've put costumes on both of my children since they were newborns. They were both born in September (different years) and were each a few weeks old for their first Halloweens. I had been given a newborn pumpkin costume as a gift while pregnant with my older child, and they both wore it for their first one. It was all in good fun, obviously; I was not trying to assimilate them into the occult or anything like that! I just put the costume on them and took them to the door when a trick-or-treater rang the bell. All the neighbors enjoyed seeing the new babies, some of them for the first time that night. We also took a lot of pictures and later I assembled a collage frame of photos of each of them, which we still display in the living room because the photos were so cute (the children are six and nine now).

Anyway, I'm just curious because I don't know how people view Halloween over there, or whether it was typical to dress up little kids even in 2006, when I assume that photo of Madeleine is meant to have been taken. Over here, I'd say the vast majority see it as good, clean fun.

joyce1938 wrote:I had thought that that last photo was maddie collecting balls from the adult game ,not the kids playing ? joyce1938

It seems unrealistic that young children would be expected to play with adult tennis kit during organised children's sessions. I found this post by a mum who holidayed at MW in Greece and recalls playing a late night 'Thursday Tipsy Tennis' with "children's racquets, soft balls and a mini net"
So it seems that children's tennis kit is provided by MW in 2014...so was that the case also in 2007? I would expect so, and that the 'tennis pic' is of Madeleine collecting balls for fun rather than playing. On the other hand, an Internet image search for MW mini tennis elsewhere shows pics of children having a lesson in sandals.
Jmo.

http://www.mummymummymum.com/2014/07/08/the-one-with-the-tennis/

various places, yes I see what you mean about the Christian element.   However, there are Satanic human ritualistic practices happening at Halloween, nonetheless.  See below.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/satanic_calendar.htm

illuminati/freemasonry sacrifices (alleged, obviously, but mostly connected to Hollywood/Illuminati)

have a read...http://theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/halloween_deaths.htm

and this one - NOT FOR THE FAINTHEARTED...you've been warned....

http://www.theopenscroll.com/hosting/SatanicCalendar.htm

however, since there was an earlier potential freemasonry connection discussed and given the alarming number of connected people in PdL during that time, this  connection cannot be entirely ruled out, in my opinion.  Anyhoo, it has been established by the PJ that they do not believe she 'disappeared' before 3rd May, so certainly not HAlloween, however there is also a theory out there that she didn't even make it there in the first place and that a substitute did. Just theories of course. In any case, should this be just one great big hoax those responsible for posting the article will be laughing at us all scratching our heads at this one.....

My my... how tolerant everone is on here! (I applaud that in general) but, when we get to Druids doing human sacrifices, and eating their relatives, and wondering if it has any relevance to this case... and when I read about 'chemtrails' and stuff I just think I must be locked into some Grimm's fairy tale, and I want to go to sleep for 100 years...

Our local rector, quite a big bug in the C of E  and his wife attended a children's Halloween Party done up as everyone else was and it was not considered more than innocent fun for these days... despite what its grisly origins may have been.

comperedna wrote:Our local rector, quite a big bug in the C of E  and his wife attended a children's Halloween Party done up as everyone else was and it was not considered more than innocent fun for these days... despite what its grisly origins may have been.

I'm glad to hear that. I think most people here feel the same way. If anything, the biggest objectors to Halloween over here these days are more concerned about strangers, sex offenders in the neighborhood, potentially contaminated candy, etc.

Coo I'm so glad you posted that comment. I feared someone might feel I was slagging off other posters unreasonably and that was not my intention at all. As a humanist/atheist type, when I'm around a lot of people who believe in the supernatural, especially those who are spooked by it and see 'Satan' as an 'out there' force as opposed to being part of the vicious psychology of bent individuals, I can feel I'm the only rationalist at a paranoia party! 'Satanism' involving children is simply a specially nasty sort of child abuse by the sick and criminally domineering and their credulous followers. My first degree is in Anthropology so I'm well aware of the depraved and murderous, and even cannibalistic actions of some fellow humans. Also, I know that their sons and daughters, if decently cared for and educated, can become the sort of charming people you could happily live next door to.

comperedna wrote:Coo I'm so glad you posted that comment. I feared someone might feel I was slagging off other posters unreasonably and that was not my intention at all. As a humanist/atheist type, when I'm around a lot of people who believe in the supernatural, especially those who are spooked by it and see 'Satan' as an 'out there' force as opposed to being part of the vicious psychology of bent individuals, I can feel I'm the only rationalist at a paranoia party! 'Satanism' involving children is simply a specially nasty sort of child abuse by the sick and criminally domineering and their credulous followers. My first degree is in Anthropology so I'm well aware of the depraved and murderous, and even cannibalistic actions of some fellow humans. Also, I know that their sons and daughters, if decently cared for and educated, can become the sort of charming people you could happily live next door to.

I agree with everything you said comperedna and didn't find it all unreasonable or knocking.

The bit of your post I've bolded (that's not even a word) made me chuckle at something I heard Ricky Gervais say....'I thank God for making me an atheist'.

My atheist husband is the most upstanding person I've ever known.

MissesWillYa wrote:My atheist husband is the most upstanding person I've ever known.

I have to say that the majority of truly honest people I've ever met have all been atheist/agnostic.

'Some of my best friends are Christians', and I respect their views, and I know you can hold scientific viewpoints at the same as being a Christian. The head of Queens College Cambridge was ordained, and also a well known physicist and cosmologist. Much of the 'good work' which led to prison reform and the abolition of slavery and the rest was done by Christians. You cannot understand the history of this country without knowing about Christianity in detail. It is only my husband and myself and my daughter who are atheists out of our family. All our relatives, including my son are C of E. It's funny, husband and self are confirmed Cof E, but are non believers, and most of the younger generation of 'believers' are not even christened. I used to take a really interesting magazine called :'The Sea of Faith' (ref Matthew Arnold's poem) and it was full of articles by clerics who no longer believed in 'the supernatural' at all. Gee! That must take a bit of standing on your head, I thought. :-) However there are several serious theologists who take that view,and the C of E is a very broad church. :-)  'The kingdom of God is within you' and other similar texts being paramount for them. I believe certain quite famous Cof E clerics, if put on the spot, would struggle to take the orthodox attitude.

comperedna wrote:'Some of my best friends are Christians', and I respect their views, and I know you can hold scientific viewpoints at the same as being a Christian. The head of Queens College Cambridge was ordained, and also a well known physicist and cosmologist. Much of the 'good work' which led to prison reform and the abolition of slavery and the rest was done by Christians. You cannot understand the history of this country without knowing about Christianity in detail. It is only my husband and myself and my daughter who are atheists out of our family. All our relatives, including my son are C of E. It's funny, husband and self are confirmed Cof E, but are non believers, and most of the younger generation of 'believers' are not even christened. I used to take a really interesting magazine called :'The Sea of Faith' (ref Matthew Arnold's poem) and it was full of articles by clerics who no longer believed in 'the supernatural' at all. Gee! That must take a bit of standing on your head, I thought. :-) However there are several serious theologists who take that view,and the C of E is a very broad church. :-)  'The kingdom of God is within you' and other similar texts being paramount for them. I believe certain quite famous Cof E clerics, if put on the spot, would struggle to take the orthodox attitude.

I'm reluctant to answer this post as it's straying off topic (although the topic did wander off into druids and satanism first) but I'm so fascinated by your comments and your experience comperedna that I wonder if you'd open up a topic in the member's lounge.

I don't want to get 'done' for disrupting a thread. I don't think the above is too far off topic though.

To get back to poor MBM, in pumkin costume or not... I still favour accidental homicide, manslaughter in the UK, as the most likely... The circumstances of this I obviously don't know about. They could be very sinister, or they could simply be accident/neglect/misadventure. The cover up and why it occurred (and to protect whom) and how the body was disposed of, and by whom, remains to be discovered, and is much more problematic... Will we ever know? I don't know. 

I do know why I stick with this case. It is more than simple curiosity.  It is very personal. I have four little grand-daughters and number three of them has just turned four. Almost all little girls of that age look charming, and many are fairish, and a little like Madeleine. It breaks me up that MBM has been more or less air-brushed out of consideration. We know almost nothing about her. I bought Kate's book, and apart from a few photos, and the comments about how she was difficult to deal with as a baby, I learned practically nothing about her. The case is now all about her parents and their exploits.

I have a great niece who is not even two years of age. She has a lovely personality. She's blonde, blue-eyed and oh so cute. She speaks well, she has such imagination when she plays you can almost see think bubbles coming out of her head. She has a sense of humour. She's a happy little soul. She torments her cat; the long-suffering, very old and almost blind dog and she are best friends. She takes things apart with screwdrivers. She dances in front of the telly. She likes chicken sandwiches, yoghurt and fruit (she could live on fruit). She prefers toy cars to dolls. She draws constantly (that includes walls if you're not watching). She climbs like a monkey and she's fascinated by lifting things that are too heavy for her. She can count to ten and do it backwards. When she eats in a restaurant she does so like an angel. When she eats at home she puts the bowl on her head afterwards and laughs like a drain. She cries when she's frightened and that's when she wakes up and immediately there is no-one to pick her up and cuddle her (which there always is within seconds). She half heartedly uses a potty - she's too busy you see. She loves feeding the swans in the park - there's a little tame goose that takes bread out of her hand. She likes CBB television and when she comes to visit me she immediately hands me the remote control and tells me the channel number. She wore her first halloween costume this year and answered the door to the trick or treaters with a bucket of sweets wearing a witch's hat. She giggled.

She's never left alone. No-one in my family would ever leave her alone. She'd never have to say 'where were you when I was crying'. She'd never be left in a holiday apartment on her own with unlocked doors - she'd never be left full stop.

My g/niece doesn't come from a moneyed/privileged background. She's an ordinary little girl from a working class background who is adored and loved by all of those around her.

I could write more about my g/niece on this forum than Kate managed to write about Madeleine in the whole of her book. This book was brought out imo to counter-act Goncalo's book. It had a handful of photographs of Madeleine. It wasn't about Madeleine. It was Kate's version of the truth and an opportunity to talk about herself and her husband and to make money for the limited company.

Even the title of the book didn't afford Madeleine's name a capital letter.

spirals wrote:
I don't believe any of this. I've read a lot about pre-Christian religions - and all the stuff about the Celts and Druids being Satanic and sacrificing children was spread by the Christians who wanted to convert the population and wipe out the old religions.

Also Satan didn't exist until Christians invented him.

As a Christian, I offer the Christian perspective here, though clearly we have wandered away from the topic (I shall come back to the topic of Hallowe'en though). 

The Christian faith is no different from the pre-existing Jewish faith, with one important difference - most Jews since Christ have not recognised Him as their Messiah and Saviour.

As the Bible records in the Old Testemant, the entirety of which Christ confirmed as absolutely and literally true, God created the world and the universe in 6 days. He created the angels, including Lucifer, before He created man and woman - Adam and Eve. Some of the angels rebelled, and we know them as devils.

After Noah's Flood, God chose Abraham (or Abram as he was originally named) to found the Jewish nation - and then used His dealings with that nation to teach us about God and His ways - and to help us learn about the coming Redeemer - Christ.

In this process, the Bible records an extensive conversation between God and Satan regarding the temptation of Job - Job Chaps 1 & 2. The book was written about 2,000 BC. Christ Himself confirmed that this was a real conversation between God and the leading rebel angel - Satan.

Shortly after Christ began His ministry, He was tempted by Satan in the woilderness for 40 days and 40 nights - and once again, the real conversations between Christ and Satan are recorded by the Gospel-writers.

So let there be no doubt that, according to the Bible and to Christ Himself, Satan is a real - but invisible - person in the spiritual realms. And if you read the Gospels, they contain numerous examples of Christ casting out devils from those who were possessed by them.

Millions of Christians of all races, tongues and tribes subscribe to the above beliefs and believe the Bible to be the very Word of God. And there is not one scientific fact that contradicts any statement in the Bible.

These issues have been discussed previously in the Member's Lounge.   

+++++++++++++++++

Back to Hallowe'en, here is a Christian perpective on the subject which I believe to be fully accurate. The author is a former astrologer, occultist and witch who converted to Christ:


Halloween and the Forces of Darkness


Where did it all come from? October 31st is a day of ghosts, witches, goblins, and grotesque creatures. It is also a day of orange and black, of candles and jack-o-lanterns. Costume parties and strange customs occupy the minds of western civilization, and all of this seems to be intensifying every year. Children wearing every kind of costume imaginable, and some unimaginable, have been going for door to door for years at the end of October saying “trick or treat” and collecting bags full of treats. In recent years, many people have been decorating their yards as cemeteries and making their houses look spooky. Even churches have Halloween parties and set up “haunted houses” as fund raising projects. Where did it all come from, and what does it all mean? Most people would say it is all harmless fun. Some would venture to say, “If there is any witchcraft in it, it is white witchcraft.” In order to truly answer both of the questions where did it come from and what does it mean, we must go clear back to the origin of it all.

Halloween has its origin in the British Isles about 1300 years ago. In those days, there were many men and women who practiced a so-called “nature religion” known as Wicca. (The word “Wicca” means “wise ones.” The word “witch” is derived from “Wicca.”) The witches worked their spells and magic as individuals or sometimes in groups of 13 known as Covens. Sometimes the witches and wizards worked as a triumvirate or power of three. The female Wiccan was known as a witch, and the male Wiccan was known as a wizard. The word “warlock” was not used by witches to identify themselves. It is actually a Scotch-Gaelic word that means “traitor.” Satanists use the word “warlock.”

The Wiccans were worshippers of the “Earth Mother”, the sun, the moon, and stars. Witches do not believe in Satan. The Wiccans or witches meet every Friday night at a gathering called an “esbat.” They draw a magic circle with a six-pointed star in it called a “hexagram”, from which we get the word “hex.” The coven of 13 stand “sky clad” or naked in the hexagram and work spells by chanting and doing rituals such as “drawing down the moon.” The full moon is sacred to witches, especially if it is on a Friday. It is considered to be even greater if the Friday is the 13th day of the month.

Eight times each year, the witches celebrated a sabat and the ritual work and spell casting was always done on the eve of the sabat. The sabats are Imbolc on February 2nd, the spring equinox on March 22nd, Beltaine on May 1st, the summer solstice on June 22nd, Lugnahsaid on July 31st, the fall equinox on September 22nd, Samhain on October 31st, and the winter solstice on December 22nd, which is also known as Yule.

Witches have special ways of celebrating for each sabat, and even though they do not believe in Satan, it is Satan who gives them the experiences they have and deceives them into thinking it is the forces of nature they are tapping into. Halloween is the most important of the eight sabats in witchcraft and is known to the witches by the Scotch-Gaelic word “Samhain”, which is pronounced “SOW-EEN.” It is believed that on that night, the barrier between this world and the next, known as the astral plane, becomes very thin. The witches believe that this allows spirits of departed ones to travel freely back and forth between the earth and the spirit realm. Thus, Halloween is the highest day in Wiccan witchcraft. On that night for many centuries, witches would work their magic and then have wild parties all through the darkness of that night. They would play games, such as bobbing for apples, because witches regard the apple as sacred. The witches would also tell stories from their personal diaries of spells known as their “book of shadows.” These ghost stories would start when the hosting High Priest or Priestess would say, “A witches’ tale and a cup of ale for the host of our guests unseen.”

In those early days in England, there was another kind of witchcraft known as Druidism. The Druids were called “men of the oaks” and were a strange clan of men who dressed in white robes. The Druids worshipped Cernnunos, the “horned hunter of the night.“ Halloween was sacred to the Druids because their sun-god receded to the underworld on October 31st, which is why darkness increased and light decreased according to their reckoning.

As darkness set in on October 31st, the clan of Druids would put on their white robes and hoods. They would carry sickles and Celtic crosses as they began a torchlight procession. At the beginning of the procession, a male slave was killed and dragged by a rope fastened to his left ankle. The Druids would walk until they came to a house or a village where they shouted the equivalent of “trick or treat.” The treat was a slave girl or any female to be given to the Druids. If the people refused to a girl as a “treat”, blood was taken from the dead slave and used to draw a hexagram or six-pointed star on the door or wall of the village. Spirits of the “horned hunter of the night” were invoked by the Druids to kill someone in that house or village by fear that night.

If the house or village gave a girl as a “treat”, the Druids put a pumpkin with a face carved in it in front of the door or gate of that place. Inside the pumpkin was a candle made of human tallow to keep evil spirits away. Thus, the Jack-O-Lantern was and is a sign that you have cooperated with Satan.

The treats or female victims were taken to Stonehenge where they were raped and killed and then sacrificed on the sacred bonefire until only glowing embers were left. The “bonefire” is the origin of the modern day bonfire. As a matter of luck for winter survival, all villagers were expected to use the glowing embers of the bonefire to light their hearths.

As we can clearly see, Halloween is not harmless. Satan has people in our modern era mimicking the witches and Druids of old. All of this is cursed of God. We live in a time when witchcraft is being revived. Movies are filled with witchcraft and numerous television programs such as “Charmed” are teaching witchcraft to millions. The Harry Potter books are likewise furthering the cause of Satan! Halloween is no joke and is not harmless fun! This evil holiday has no part in the life of a Christian. The Roman Catholic Church borrowed Halloween from the witches, which shows how blind they are. May God help you as you read this tract to avoid Halloween and warn others that it is strictly the invention of Satan and can never be anything but evil of the first magnitude!

Pastor David J. Meyer
(A former astrologer and occultist)

Related Bible Verses:

• Deuteronomy 18:9 –12
  
  
• Galatians 5:19 – 21
  
  
• Revelation 9:21
  
  
• Revelation 21:8
  

Published By:
Last Trumpet Ministries International
PO Box 806
Beaver Dam, Wisconsin 53916

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org

MissesWillYa wrote:I really can't believe that Madeleine was a Halloween sacrifice.

But it makes me wonder, is Halloween done much in the UK? I ask because I live in the US and from friends who have been abroad, I get the sense that it's only recently become "a thing" like it is over here, i.e., kids' costumes, trick-or-treat, etc.

I can say that I've put costumes on both of my children since they were newborns. They were both born in September (different years) and were each a few weeks old for their first Halloweens. I had been given a newborn pumpkin costume as a gift while pregnant with my older child, and they both wore it for their first one. It was all in good fun, obviously; I was not trying to assimilate them into the occult or anything like that! I just put the costume on them and took them to the door when a trick-or-treater rang the bell. All the neighbors enjoyed seeing the new babies, some of them for the first time that night. We also took a lot of pictures and later I assembled a collage frame of photos of each of them, which we still display in the living room because the photos were so cute (the children are six and nine now).

Anyway, I'm just curious because I don't know how people view Halloween over there, or whether it was typical to dress up little kids even in 2006, when I assume that photo of Madeleine is meant to have been taken. Over here, I'd say the vast majority see it as good, clean fun.

In Scotland Halloween has been celebrated seriously for longer than in England, I do believe Or was it just the Catholics in Scotland who were into celebrating it?

speefts wrote:

joyce1938 wrote:I had thought that that last photo was maddie collecting balls from the adult game ,not the kids playing ? joyce1938

It seems unrealistic that young children would be expected to play with adult tennis kit during organised children's sessions. I found this post by a mum who holidayed at MW in Greece and recalls playing a late night 'Thursday Tipsy Tennis' with "children's racquets, soft balls and a mini net"
So it seems that children's tennis kit is provided by MW in 2014...so was that the case also in 2007? I would expect so, and that the 'tennis pic' is of Madeleine collecting balls for fun rather than playing. On the other hand, an Internet image search for MW mini tennis elsewhere shows pics of children having a lesson in sandals.
Jmo.

http://www.mummymummymum.com/2014/07/08/the-one-with-the-tennis/

Kate is very clear in her book that she watched Madeleine and her friend Ella play mini-tennis on an adjacent court to where Gerry was having a tennis lesson (anyone know which courts they would be in Ocean Club - I know the tennis courts are scattered around the large complex but the mini tennis courts might be in one place, perhaps? Or several - but where??). She is very clear that while Madeleine was having the lesson, Kate ran back to the apartment to get her camera. And she took the 'tennis balls' photo at the end of Madeleine's session when Madeleine and her group from the kids' club were collecting all the balls from the court (in other words - the court they had been playing mini-tennis on). No suggestion that it was from another court. Or from Gerry's court.

As you say, children's tennis kit and a specially sized court with smaller net were provided by MW in 2014....were they at OC in 2007?

I would suggest that the photo of that child playing mini tennis at Mark Warner shows a child wearing footwear that would be described as a sneaker - a bit like the old-fashioned plimsoll. Certainly a much more suitable type of foot-wear for running around a tennis court than a sandal. Admittedly different to a trainer, as the sole is thinner, but still acceptable for running safely on a tennis court, imo.

Those are certainly not sandals, imo. As a sandal has open sides and typically no laces and maybe just a strap over the back of the foot.

Tony,

I see things in simpler terms.

USA took over Christmas - it became Christmas as sponsored by Coca-Cola - even Santa's outfit conformed. Then there was the 'I'm dreaming of a white christmas' fantasy. Christ was removed from Christmas and it became 'happy holiday' as sponsored by those who run the film industry in USA who are possibly not Christian on the whole.

USA took over Halloween and made it into a production - those darned Yanks can put on a good show. The UK now do trick or treat. It's another money-maker. It's a bit of fun and more to the point it's allowed as a non-racist, PC, fun event. Just buy a load of junk from Asda and let your kids have something to do in October when it's dark, boring and cold in UK. It appeals to the masses. It's just a bit of fun and it's meaningless.

Out of the two I find taking Christ out of Christmas the most disturbing. Christmas became about fairylights and roaring fires and families in harmony. Welcome to Hollywood. It was the biggest sell in modern time. It was about making money. Now we live in a Christian country which no longer has the carol service, nativity play and the essence of Christianity taught in school is hushed up and almost apologized for. Christmas is about shopping and debt. Churches do nothing about it because they lack the impetus.

The 'evil' of diluting Christmas is this concept of happiness that we must all aspire to/feel guilty about to make money for large corporations. I see no evil in Halloween. If you asked someone why they celebrated Halloween they'd just say it's fun, it's spook night.

Tony, the Wicca island (where the film Wicca Man was done) has been in the Daily Mail in the last couple of days. It's up for sale. I hope the government buy it and send all the bloody paedophiles in Westminster to test out a new method of reform. That'd get more than a few votes for any party.

Simplistic view.

j.rob wrote:

speefts wrote:

joyce1938 wrote:I had thought that that last photo was maddie collecting balls from the adult game ,not the kids playing ? joyce1938

It seems unrealistic that young children would be expected to play with adult tennis kit during organised children's sessions. I found this post by a mum who holidayed at MW in Greece and recalls playing a late night 'Thursday Tipsy Tennis' with "children's racquets, soft balls and a mini net"
So it seems that children's tennis kit is provided by MW in 2014...so was that the case also in 2007? I would expect so, and that the 'tennis pic' is of Madeleine collecting balls for fun rather than playing. On the other hand, an Internet image search for MW mini tennis elsewhere shows pics of children having a lesson in sandals.
Jmo.

http://www.mummymummymum.com/2014/07/08/the-one-with-the-tennis/

Kate is very clear in her book that she watched Madeleine and her friend Ella play mini-tennis on an adjacent court to where Gerry was having a tennis lesson (anyone know which courts they would be in Ocean Club - I know the tennis courts are scattered around the large complex but the mini tennis courts might be in one place, perhaps? Or several - but where??). She is very clear that while Madeleine was having the lesson, Kate ran back to the apartment to get her camera. And she took the 'tennis balls' photo at the end of Madeleine's session when Madeleine and her group from the kids' club were collecting all the balls from the court (in other words - the court they had been playing mini-tennis on). No suggestion that it was from another court. Or from Gerry's court.

As you say, children's tennis kit and a specially sized court with smaller net were provided by MW in 2014....were they at OC in 2007?

I would suggest that the photo of that child playing mini tennis at Mark Warner shows a child wearing footwear that would be described as a sneaker - a bit like the old-fashioned plimsoll. Certainly a much more suitable type of foot-wear for running around a tennis court. Admittedly different to a trainer, as the sole is thinner, but still acceptable for running safely on a tennis court, imo.

Those are certainly not sandals, imo. As a sandal has open sides and typically no laces and maybe just a strap over the back of the foot.

Hi j.rob,
The pic of the sandals that I was referring to was, as I stated in my last sentence in my previous post, elsewhere (i.e. not on the 'mummy blog' link I posted) on the internet when I searched for MW mini tennis. Here it is - The child on the left seems to be wearing sandals: http://www.blogcdn.com/travel.aol.co.uk/media/2012/06/tennis.jpg
I don't think it would matter particularly whether a child wore trainers, sneakers or sandals actually, as the lessons look pretty basic. I guess it would depend on whether the parents knew their child would be playing tennis or whatever on a particular day as to how they were dressed. Jmo.
Sorry to have taken this off topic.

aquila wrote:Tony,

I see things in simpler terms.

USA took over Christmas - it became Christmas as sponsored by Coca-Cola - even Santa's outfit conformed. Then there was the 'I'm dreaming of a white christmas' fantasy. Christ was removed from Christmas and it became 'happy holiday' as sponsored by those who run the film industry in USA who are possibly not Christian on the whole.

USA took over Halloween and made it into a production - those darned Yanks can put on a good show. The UK now do trick or treat. It's another money-maker. It's a bit of fun and more to the point it's allowed as a non-racist, PC, fun event. Just buy a load of junk from Asda and let your kids have something to do in October when it's dark, boring and cold in UK. It appeals to the masses. It's just a bit of fun and it's meaningless.

Out of the two I find taking Christ out of Christmas the most disturbing. Christmas became about fairylights and roaring fires and families in harmony. Welcome to Hollywood. It was the biggest sell in modern time. It was about making money. Now we live in a Christian country which no longer has the carol service, nativity play and the essence of Christianity taught in school is hushed up and almost apologized for. Christmas is about shopping and debt. Churches do nothing about it because they lack the impetus.

The 'evil' of diluting Christmas is this concept of happiness that we must all aspire to/feel guilty about to make money for large corporations. I see no evil in Halloween. If you asked someone why they celebrated Halloween they'd just say it's fun, it's spook night.

Tony, the Wicca island (where the film Wicca Man was done) has been in the Daily Mail in the last couple of days. It's up for sale. I hope the government buy it and send all the bloody paedophiles in Westminster to test out a new method of reform. That'd get more than a few votes for any party.

Simplistic view.

I really enjoyed this post, Aquila, and I totally agree (in general, and as an American).

I'm so bothered the ridiculous commercialization and excess associated with Christmas. I can't believe what goes on over here. I find it disgusting, to be honest. It makes me sick to think about it. In the past few years, I have refused to participate with my extended family, who seem to compete over who spends the most money, who gets to the stores earliest for the best deals, who puts on the biggest and most grandiose feast. We stay home, just the four of us, exchange simple gifts (many of them handmade) and eat a nice but not gluttonous meal. I will not allow my children to grow up believing the other way is the norm, I couldn't live with myself.

MissesWillYa wrote:

aquila wrote:Tony,

I see things in simpler terms.

USA took over Christmas - it became Christmas as sponsored by Coca-Cola - even Santa's outfit conformed. Then there was the 'I'm dreaming of a white christmas' fantasy. Christ was removed from Christmas and it became 'happy holiday' as sponsored by those who run the film industry in USA who are possibly not Christian on the whole.

USA took over Halloween and made it into a production - those darned Yanks can put on a good show. The UK now do trick or treat. It's another money-maker. It's a bit of fun and more to the point it's allowed as a non-racist, PC, fun event. Just buy a load of junk from Asda and let your kids have something to do in October when it's dark, boring and cold in UK. It appeals to the masses. It's just a bit of fun and it's meaningless.

Out of the two I find taking Christ out of Christmas the most disturbing. Christmas became about fairylights and roaring fires and families in harmony. Welcome to Hollywood. It was the biggest sell in modern time. It was about making money. Now we live in a Christian country which no longer has the carol service, nativity play and the essence of Christianity taught in school is hushed up and almost apologized for. Christmas is about shopping and debt. Churches do nothing about it because they lack the impetus.

The 'evil' of diluting Christmas is this concept of happiness that we must all aspire to/feel guilty about to make money for large corporations. I see no evil in Halloween. If you asked someone why they celebrated Halloween they'd just say it's fun, it's spook night.

Tony, the Wicca island (where the film Wicca Man was done) has been in the Daily Mail in the last couple of days. It's up for sale. I hope the government buy it and send all the bloody paedophiles in Westminster to test out a new method of reform. That'd get more than a few votes for any party.

Simplistic view.

I really enjoyed this post, Aquila, and I totally agree (in general, and as an American).

I'm so bothered the ridiculous commercialization and excess associated with Christmas. I can't believe what goes on over here. I find it disgusting, to be honest. It makes me sick to think about it. In the past few years, I have refused to participate with my extended family, who seem to compete over who spends the most money, who gets to the stores earliest for the best deals, who puts on the biggest and most grandiose feast. We stay home, just the four of us, exchange simple gifts (many of them handmade) and eat a nice but not gluttonous meal. I will not allow my children to grow up believing the other way is the norm, I couldn't live with myself.

I went to the one and only Christmas Mass I've ever attended. It was never to be repeated. It was at a Baptist Church and it was doom, gloom, hellfire and brimstone. The only thing that lightened up the proceedings was a drunk bloke tripping up the aisle and apologizing. The vicar stood outside shaking hands with the parishioners on the way out. I wanted to ask him if he was on too many Prozac when he thought about his service.

I once went to a carol service in the C of E (I'm not loyal you see) and it was 'high church', no regular nativity stuff from the Bible, oh no this service was picked from the intestines of a vicar with a few too many degrees in theology and no idea of his parishioners. There were no carols and lots of weird choral stuff from a choir who would've preferred to be singing carols (as written by British composers). I've never seen such a deflated congregation of normal folk like me who attend church on an irregular basis.

I once went to a Catholic service at Christmas and felt I didn't have the stamina for a marathon so I didn't attend the midnight mass. It was sooooo boring and un-celebratory of the birth of Christ. I felt depressed when I left.

As for Christmas lunch - it's not difficult to cook a Sunday roast so why is it difficult/traumatic to cook a Christmas lunch? It's not.

Everything nowadays is about greed. You only have to look at the disappearance of Madeleine McCann to see that.

Upsy Daisy wrote:various places, yes I see what you mean about the Christian element.   However, there are Satanic human ritualistic practices happening at Halloween, nonetheless.  See below.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/satanic_calendar.htm

illuminati/freemasonry sacrifices (alleged, obviously, but mostly connected to Hollywood/Illuminati)

have a read...http://theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/halloween_deaths.htm

and this one - NOT FOR THE FAINTHEARTED...you've been warned....

http://www.theopenscroll.com/hosting/SatanicCalendar.htm

however, since there was an earlier potential freemasonry connection discussed and given the alarming number of connected people in PdL during that time, this  connection cannot be entirely ruled out, in my opinion.  Anyhoo, it has been established by the PJ that they do not believe she 'disappeared' before 3rd May, so certainly not HAlloween, however there is also a theory out there that she didn't even make it there in the first place and that a substitute did. Just theories of course. In any case, should this be just one great big hoax those responsible for posting the article will be laughing at us all scratching our heads at this one.....

Thank you for the interesting reads, Upsy Daisy - always something new to think about in this case...

The notions of the occult/Satanism/druids/freemasons I still can't quite get my head around -

- perhaps this is the result of having been taken to church every Sunday and even daily (at school) until I was 18...?


I had some fairly fundamentalist teachers in my early teens and was told never to read a Dennis Wheatley book -

- and I never have. In one classroom a list of Satanic musicians was pinned up to warn us girls off from listening to them -

- from memory they included AC/DC (Anti Christ Devil's Children), KISS (Knights in Satan's Services) and oddly enough U2!

The musical stricture was one I've largely ignored - but the concept of some things being considered Satanic has stayed with me.


I don't know much about, or understand Western world Satanism -

- but I do have some knowledge of muti (African) and of tapu (Polynesian) practices.

Had Madeleine gone missing outside of Europe I would be thinking perhaps she has been taken for muti?

Seeing as she has vanished in Europe then I wonder if perhaps some sort of Western sorcery underpins this disappearance...

...Freemasonry?


Some thoughts of mine, anyhow.

There are many cults and myths bound up in this case, imo. There is Roman Catholicism; there is Medicine; there is the cult of the 'loving parents' which may be but may not be; there is the myth that middle class professionals (especially doctors!) would never do anything to harm anyone - especially a child, not least their own child. Then throw into this Freemasonry which is really weird, imo, and I suspect does a malevolent minority. I do believe there are sexual deviances at force as well. 

And it is impossible to ignore the importance that both Kate and Gerry gave to (as Kate writes in her book) "every psychic, medium, dowser, diviner, visionary and dreamer, you name it......" 

It is worth reading pages 150 to 151 of Kate's book to try to begin to wrap your head around Kate's professed views on all this. I *think* what she is trying to get at is that she and Gerry are the victims of a dreadful crime and that, as loving parents, they will do anything, including listening to dozens of psychics, in order to find their daughter. This is a classic example of Kate double if not triple bluff. She is appealing to the emotion of the reader that as 'poor grieving parents of an abducted child' they are terribly vulnerable and are so desperate that they will listen to psychics, even though both of them are scientists by 'profession and inclination'. Ultimately, as Kate writes, ' if it does not have 100 per cent credibility (????) it goes into the the lowest-priority action pile.

"We need to protect ourselves too, " writes Kate. 

Oh, I don't think anyone would argue that you and Gerry didn't do that from very early on, Kate. 

Of theoretical interest only, I think,  that the 30th April  is  - according to the links above - 'Walpurgis night/Beltane:  One of the most important nights on the satanic calendar.  Blood rituals and human sacrifice take place.' I have often suspected that this was the day/night that *something* happened to Madeleine. 


IMO only. Just ideas.

I'm sorry j.rob but that's just a step too far for me. I don't think anything remotely related to satanic rituals happened to Madeleine.

That's a step into the twilight zone for me.

I was very interested in comperedna's posts earlier. She is much more on the ball.

aquila wrote:I'm sorry j.rob but that's just a step too far for me. I don't think anything remotely related to satanic rituals happened to Madeleine.

That's a step into the twilight zone for me.

I was very interested in comperedna's posts earlier. She is much more on the ball

I never suggested it did. I merely mentioned 'a coincidence'.

What do you think happened to Madeleine?