Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™ :: Portuguese Police Investigation :: McCanns v Dr Gonçalo Amaral + ECHR
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
As I see it, the problem for those who are complicit in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is that, regardless of any supposition or belief that she may have succombed to a fatal accident, in the absence of a body to prove otherwise the charge is murder with a precautionary second count of manslaughter and other charges as appropriate, PeterMac.PeterMac wrote:As I recall the only people who have ever mentioned Murder were the McCanns themseelvestigger wrote:
As to the last - bolded paragraph above, as far as I know the parents are NOT 'suspects for her murder'. It is dangerous to make such statements, especially here. Dangerous for the forum I mean.
If they were made arguidos it would be in the press. the Portuguese are very keen on their democratic laws.
"Find the body and prove we killed her" Gerry
"Police don't want a murder in Portugal and all the publicity about them not having paedophile laws here, so they're blaming us."' Kate
I think everyone else, (apart from some deranged internet nutters - obviously) has followed the evidence uncovered by the investigations and the views of the various professional Police officers of several countries, and has tended towards accident.
Eta I agree with tigger's estimation of the danger for this forum were it to be put about here that the McCanns are suspects or, indeed, persons of interest (arguidos) without proof of the assertion.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
I'm sorry uT, once again I don't understand this as it seems to be only your opinion as it's not qualified by anything. It's a statement which is clearly only an opinion.ultimaThule wrote:The problem for those who are complicit in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is that, regardless of any supposition or belief that she may have succombed to a fatal accident, in the absence of a body to prove otherwise the charge is murder with a precautionary second count of manslaughter and other charges as appropriate.PeterMac wrote:As I recall the only people who have ever mentioned Murder were the McCanns themseelvestigger wrote:
As to the last - bolded paragraph above, as far as I know the parents are NOT 'suspects for her murder'. It is dangerous to make such statements, especially here. Dangerous for the forum I mean.
If they were made arguidos it would be in the press. the Portuguese are very keen on their democratic laws.
"Find the body and prove we killed her" Gerry
"Police don't want a murder in Portugal and all the publicity about them not having paedophile laws here, so they're blaming us."' Kate
I think everyone else, (apart from some deranged internet nutters - obviously) has followed the evidence uncovered by the investigations and the views of the various professional Police officers of several countries, and has tended towards accident.
You'll have to forgive me for challenging it but there is no substance to it let alone no account made for the fact that what happened to Madeleine was in Portugal and no reference made to Portuguese law or for that matter UK law.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
Notwithstanding the difference between inquisitorial and adversarial justice systems and processes, in cases of murder and manslaughter the laws of Portugal and the UK may vary only in terms of what sentence(s) are handed down on conviction and I very much doubt it is beyond your understanding to put this assertion to the test by undertaking your own research to prove or disprove it, aquila.
As I have said upthread, my intention when joining this forum was to put such knowledge as I possess at the disposal of others who are free to accept, reject, or form views of it as they see fit, as I do when reading the opinions of others.
As I have said upthread, my intention when joining this forum was to put such knowledge as I possess at the disposal of others who are free to accept, reject, or form views of it as they see fit, as I do when reading the opinions of others.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
what a pity that I asked a fair question, received a diatribe and no answer.ultimaThule wrote:Notwithstanding the difference between inquisitorial and adversarial justice systems and processes, in cases of murder and manslaughter the laws of Portugal and the UK may vary only in terms of what sentence(s) are handed down on conviction and I very much doubt it is beyond your understanding to put this assertion to the test by undertaking your own research to prove or disprove it, aquila.
As I have said upthread, my intention when joining this forum was to put such knowledge as I possess at the disposal of others who are free to accept, reject, or form views of it as they see fit, as I do when reading the opinions of others.
What a bloody pity.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
The problem I have with your 'fair questions', aquila, is that you do not appear to be interested in any answers I provide, nor do you acknowledge them.
For examples of what constitutes a 'diatribe', I would suggest you look elsewhere as my answer to your earlier question is complete in itself and consists of only two brief paragraphs.
For examples of what constitutes a 'diatribe', I would suggest you look elsewhere as my answer to your earlier question is complete in itself and consists of only two brief paragraphs.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
I see we are back to the level of the playground again and semantics abound.ultimaThule wrote:The problem I have with your 'fair questions', aquila, is that you do not appear to be interested in any answers I provide, nor do you acknowledge them.
For examples of what constitutes a 'diatribe', I would suggest you look elsewhere as my answer to your earlier question is complete in itself and consists of only two brief paragraphs.
May I suggest you ignore anything I have to say and answer other people's questions if that suits you better. I'm not the only person to ask questions.
I believe Ladyinred has asked you one on another thread which is left unanswered.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
Though I almost always agree with the most you post, why is not tending towards an accident a symptom of deranged nuttery? Apart from unfounded direct accusations of murder, of course.PeterMac wrote:
I think everyone else, (apart from some deranged internet nutters - obviously) has followed the evidence uncovered by the investigations and the views of the various professional Police officers of several countries, and has tended towards accident.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
In the interests of preventing any further disruption of this and other threads, I will gladly adopt your suggestion and ignore your responses here and elsewhere, aquila.aquila wrote:I see we are back to the level of the playground again and semantics abound.ultimaThule wrote:The problem I have with your 'fair questions', aquila, is that you do not appear to be interested in any answers I provide, nor do you acknowledge them.
For examples of what constitutes a 'diatribe', I would suggest you look elsewhere as my answer to your earlier question is complete in itself and consists of only two brief paragraphs.
May I suggest you ignore anything I have to say and answer other people's questions if that suits you better. I'm not the only person to ask questions.
I believe Ladyinred has asked you one on another thread which is left unanswered
If I have overlooked a question from Lir this will have been caused by my attention having been diverted by matters such as this and I will now seek to find the other thread you refer to and answer whatever question has been set for me to the best of my ability.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
------------------------------------------aquila wrote:I see we are back to the level of the playground again and semantics abound.ultimaThule wrote:The problem I have with your 'fair questions', aquila, is that you do not appear to be interested in any answers I provide, nor do you acknowledge them.
For examples of what constitutes a 'diatribe', I would suggest you look elsewhere as my answer to your earlier question is complete in itself and consists of only two brief paragraphs.
May I suggest you ignore anything I have to say and answer other people's questions if that suits you better. I'm not the only person to ask questions.
I believe Ladyinred has asked you one on another thread which is left unanswered.
Aquila - this is quoted from above (your response in full)
"I'm sorry uT, once again I don't understand this as it seems to be only your opinion as it's not qualified by anything. It's a statement which is clearly only an opinion.
You'll have to forgive me for challenging it but there is no substance to it let alone no account made for the fact that what happened to Madeleine was in Portugal and no reference made to Portuguese law or for that matter UK law."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Aquila - I am also confused. I don't see a single question mark in your exchange - or even where one would be placed.
It's a statement, which is clearly only an opinion.
You'll have to forgive me for challenging it, but there is no substance to it...... just an opinion of an opinion, with an attempt to derail.
Candyfloss - please accept my apologies in advance, and I shall give myself a 'time out'.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
awww it's ok. It's the usual thing for people to come to the aid of uT. People who don't contribute to the forum much that is.xertial wrote:------------------------------------------aquila wrote:I see we are back to the level of the playground again and semantics abound.ultimaThule wrote:The problem I have with your 'fair questions', aquila, is that you do not appear to be interested in any answers I provide, nor do you acknowledge them.
For examples of what constitutes a 'diatribe', I would suggest you look elsewhere as my answer to your earlier question is complete in itself and consists of only two brief paragraphs.
May I suggest you ignore anything I have to say and answer other people's questions if that suits you better. I'm not the only person to ask questions.
I believe Ladyinred has asked you one on another thread which is left unanswered.
Aquila - this is quoted from above (your response in full)
"I'm sorry uT, once again I don't understand this as it seems to be only your opinion as it's not qualified by anything. It's a statement which is clearly only an opinion.
You'll have to forgive me for challenging it but there is no substance to it let alone no account made for the fact that what happened to Madeleine was in Portugal and no reference made to Portuguese law or for that matter UK law."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Aquila - I am also confused. I don't see a single question mark in your exchange - or even where one would be placed.
It's a statement, which is clearly only an opinion.
You'll have to forgive me for challenging it, but there is no substance to it...... just an opinion of an opinion, with an attempt to derail.
Candyfloss - please accept my apologies in advance, and I shall give myself a 'time out'.
My concern is that when statements are made as fact with no substance other than 'I can't tell you for fear of being outed, I'm only on here to give you plebs the benefit of my experience, lend me your ears and trust me 'cos I'm tellin the truth but don't question me as my privacy prevents me from qualifying anything' then it is only opinion.
I could write any old thing with that excuse and so could you.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
***ultimaThule wrote:Perhaps it should be made clear that the clip you've linked to (above) of Gerry emerging from Portimao police station having been declared an arguido (person of interest) by the Policia Judiciaria is from 7 September 2007, Chatelaine. [...]
I posted the clip as a [helpful?] reaction to Doug's comment just above mine
quote
But last time round was it not the McC’s that actually broke the arguido story, with KM then trying to blame the press for intrusion etc?
unquote
I think it is obvious to any attentive reader of this forum, that this was indeed September 2007 on the day that their lawyer declared that both McCanns were made arguido and the world & his dog and Sky were there to watch it
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
AndyB asked questions too if you'd like to answer those.ultimaThule wrote:In the interests of preventing any further disruption of this and other threads, I will gladly adopt your suggestion and ignore your responses here and elsewhere, aquila.aquila wrote:I see we are back to the level of the playground again and semantics abound.ultimaThule wrote:The problem I have with your 'fair questions', aquila, is that you do not appear to be interested in any answers I provide, nor do you acknowledge them.
For examples of what constitutes a 'diatribe', I would suggest you look elsewhere as my answer to your earlier question is complete in itself and consists of only two brief paragraphs.
May I suggest you ignore anything I have to say and answer other people's questions if that suits you better. I'm not the only person to ask questions.
I believe Ladyinred has asked you one on another thread which is left unanswered
If I have overlooked a question from Lir this will have been caused by my attention having been diverted by matters such as this and I will now seek to find the other thread you refer to and answer whatever question has been set for me to the best of my ability.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
Yes thank you Châtelaine.
‘I posted the clip as a [helpful?] reaction to Doug's comment just above mine’
quote
But last time round was it not the McC’s that actually broke the arguido story, with KM then trying to blame the press for intrusion etc?
As you say, the date is obvious to any thread reader. It’s in a completely different context to when, for example, someone starts a new thread with a 2007 Daily Mail story, which looks as if it’s todays news.
‘I posted the clip as a [helpful?] reaction to Doug's comment just above mine’
quote
But last time round was it not the McC’s that actually broke the arguido story, with KM then trying to blame the press for intrusion etc?
As you say, the date is obvious to any thread reader. It’s in a completely different context to when, for example, someone starts a new thread with a 2007 Daily Mail story, which looks as if it’s todays news.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
There's no question that posting the clip was a helpful act on your part, Chatelaine, and in dating it my only intention was to provide clarification for not so attentive onlookers and new members of this forum who may be persuaded to believe from reading certain responses on this thread that the McCanns' status as arguidos from 7 September-21 July 2008 has been re-imposed on them surreptitiously.Châtelaine wrote:***ultimaThule wrote:Perhaps it should be made clear that the clip you've linked to (above) of Gerry emerging from Portimao police station having been declared an arguido (person of interest) by the Policia Judiciaria is from 7 September 2007, Chatelaine. [...]
I posted the clip as a [helpful?] reaction to Doug's comment just above mine
quote
But last time round was it not the McC’s that actually broke the arguido story, with KM then trying to blame the press for intrusion etc?
unquote
I think it is obvious to any attentive reader of this forum, that this was indeed September 2007 on the day that their lawyer declared that both McCanns were made arguido and the world & his dog and Sky were there to watch it
IMO the possibility that the PJ will re-impose arguidos status on the McCanns is as unlikely as them, and/or their various 'family' and other 'sources', observing Portugal's rule of judicial secrecy in such matters.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
PeterMac wrote:As I recall the only people who have ever mentioned Murder were the McCanns themseelvestigger wrote:
As to the last - bolded paragraph above, as far as I know the parents are NOT 'suspects for her murder'. It is dangerous to make such statements, especially here. Dangerous for the forum I mean.
If they were made arguidos it would be in the press. the Portuguese are very keen on their democratic laws.
"Find the body and prove we killed her" Gerry
"Police don't want a murder in Portugal and all the publicity about them not having paedophile laws here, so they're blaming us."' Kate
I think everyone else, (apart from some deranged internet nutters - obviously) has followed the evidence uncovered by the investigations and the views of the various professional Police officers of several countries, and has tended towards accident.
This is the line I referred to PeterMac in full, I think it is a statement of fact and not a supposition. Therefore not good for the forum.
now deleted in original post so deleted so as not to repeat.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
@ Tigger thank you for bringing that to my attention, after missing it. It has been deleted now.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
Why? BHH has talked about the possibility that Madeleine was murdered and AR has confirmed both that abduction isn't the only one of enquiry that they have and that Madeleine might have not left 5A alive.candyfloss wrote:@ Tigger thank you for bringing that to my attention, after missing it. It has been deleted now.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
"Find the body and prove we killed her " Gerry. Has it been proven he said it or just forum myth ?
Kate did mention "murder" so make of it what you will....
Kate did mention "murder" so make of it what you will....
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
It's not a forum myth. It would be good if we could have an explanation for a perfectly reasonable point being delete but I doubt we'll get one beyond the inconsistent and disengenuous claims of libel.aiyoyo wrote:"Find the body and prove we killed her " Gerry. Has it been proven he said it or just forum myth ?
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
AndyB wrote:It's not a forum myth. It would be good if we could have an explanation for a perfectly reasonable point being delete but I doubt we'll get one beyond the inconsistent and disengenuous claims of libel.aiyoyo wrote:"Find the body and prove we killed her " Gerry. Has it been proven he said it or just forum myth ?
You know perfectly well why. I suggest you go back and read again.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
It IS a forum myth. Gerry never said that: "Find the body and prove we killed her" !
I will search for the source, but IIRC it is a "source" probably "close to the family", who said that.
Pfew. Feels like Groundhog Day sometimes ... No offense meant, but ...
ETA it seems it was the Daily Express, which published this September 2007.
I'll be back tomorrow. Real life's calling, dogs to be fed, silken sheets calling ...
I will search for the source, but IIRC it is a "source" probably "close to the family", who said that.
Pfew. Feels like Groundhog Day sometimes ... No offense meant, but ...
ETA it seems it was the Daily Express, which published this September 2007.
I'll be back tomorrow. Real life's calling, dogs to be fed, silken sheets calling ...
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
Original Source: EXPRESS: THURSDAY 13-SEPTEMBER 2007 | |
Thursday September 13,2007 By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz |
[ETA: Difficult to tell from this story whether Gerry and Kate said it - probably unlikely - or if the Daily Express extrapolated that they might have said this if given the opportunity, or if the "close friend" provided the quote to the newspaper. It's definitely implied Gerry and / or Kate said it, though. ]
THE parents of missing Madeleine McCann yesterday challenged the police: "Find the body and prove we killed her."
The couple, who are suspected over the child's death and the disposal her body, issued the startling ultimatum as the public prosecutor in Portugal sent the police case against them to a judge.
It is thought that the McCanns' high-powered lawyers have told them that without a body it will be extremely difficult for the authorities to press charges.
A close friend said: "The legitimate question to ask Portuguese police is: 'Where is the body? Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead? We have got no idea'."
The change in the family's tone – just days after the McCanns were still pleading for the search for Madeleine to continue – surprised sources close to the investigation.
"It seems remarkable that just days after the McCanns were saying they thought Madeleine was still alive and missing, now they're talking about a body," a source said. "I don’t know if this is really the McCanns speaking or just one of the people working on their publicity campaign but it is not the kind of comment to impress a team of detectives who think you’re guilty."
The case against the McCanns detailed in the dossier of evidence now before Judge Pedro Miguel dos Anjos Frias appears to rest mainly on potentially damaging forensic test results.
These are said to include Madeleine's DNA in traces of bodily fluid, as well as a mass of hair, discovered in the McCanns' hire car which was rented 25 days after she went missing on May 3.
Portugal's attorney general Fernando Jose Pinto Monteiro has indicated the police investigation into Kate and Gerry, both 39-year-old doctors, has not ended and suggested stricter bail conditions could be imposed on the couple.
Public prosecutor Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses, based at Portimao on the Algarve, on Tuesday ordered the 10 lever-arch police files in the case to go before the judge.
Mr Jose Pinto Monteiro announced last night that he was appointing a second public prosecutor to the case.
Luis Bilro Verao, from the Evora district in central Portugal, will oversee the work of Portimao-based Mr Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses.
A friend of the McCanns said the family had been advised that the prosecutor was probably either seeking further guidance from the judge or applying for the authority to carry out more searches. The friend said the McCanns' new legal team, based in London, was working around the clock to "get up to speed on the case".
The McCanns' Portuguese lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, yesterday hit out at Portugal’s justice system in a scathing interview with a local newspaper.
"It is more appropriate to break down the patience of a believer and the reputation of an innocent man than to identify those responsible," he said.
A family friend said the speculation appeared to be taking its toll on the McCanns, who left Praia da Luz to return to their family home in Leicestershire at the weekend.
The source said: "Two days ago Gerry was telling everyone: 'I'm as strong as an ox'. Yesterday he was not quite as ebullient. They fear they will be summoned back at some stage.
They are innocent; they did not kill Madeleine and dispose of her body." It was expected that fresh searches would be ordered in Praia da Luz. Policia Judiciaria spokesman Olegario Sousa refused to confirm or deny the sites, but there was no sign of searches at the church yesterday.
Gerry's brother John McCann said: "There is so much speculation going on as to what the actual information the Portuguese police have.
"If they have got something that suggests Madeleine really is dead then for goodness sake tell the family who have the strongest feeling for this."
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USE Google !
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/5sep7/Express-13-09-07.htm
or here
http://web.archive.org/web/20071221085316/http:/www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19042/Find-the-body-and-prove-we-killed-her
[quote]Thursday September 13,2007
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz
Have your say(24)
THE parents of missing Madeleine McCann yesterday challenged the police: “Find the body and prove we killed her”
The couple, who are suspected over the childÂ’s death and the disposal of her body, issued the startling ultimatum as the public prosecutor in Portugal sent the police case against them to a judge.Â
It is thought that the McCannsÂ’ high-powered lawyers have told them that without a body it will be extremely difficult for the authorities to press charges.Â
Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead
A close friend said: “The legitimate question to ask Portuguese police is: ‘Where is the body? Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead? We have got no ideaÂ’.”Â
The change in the familyÂ’s tone – just days after the McCanns were still pleading for the search for Madeleine to continue – surprised sources close to the investigation.Â
[/quote
or here
http://web.archive.org/web/20071221085316/http:/www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19042/Find-the-body-and-prove-we-killed-her
[quote]Thursday September 13,2007
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz
Have your say(24)
THE parents of missing Madeleine McCann yesterday challenged the police: “Find the body and prove we killed her”
The couple, who are suspected over the childÂ’s death and the disposal of her body, issued the startling ultimatum as the public prosecutor in Portugal sent the police case against them to a judge.Â
It is thought that the McCannsÂ’ high-powered lawyers have told them that without a body it will be extremely difficult for the authorities to press charges.Â
Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead
A close friend said: “The legitimate question to ask Portuguese police is: ‘Where is the body? Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead? We have got no ideaÂ’.”Â
The change in the familyÂ’s tone – just days after the McCanns were still pleading for the search for Madeleine to continue – surprised sources close to the investigation.Â
[/quote
Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
I seriously don't know why and I can't read it again because you've deleted it. Am I missing something? (I'm not trying to be disruptive or confrontational but I am genuinely concerned about some of the moderation that goes on here)candyfloss wrote:AndyB wrote:It's not a forum myth. It would be good if we could have an explanation for a perfectly reasonable point being delete but I doubt we'll get one beyond the inconsistent and disengenuous claims of libel.aiyoyo wrote:"Find the body and prove we killed her " Gerry. Has it been proven he said it or just forum myth ?
You know perfectly well why. I suggest you go back and read again.
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Re: Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed
Candyfloss that still shows up in some replies with quotes btw,not sure if you can edit those though.
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