SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

I get the humour, but this is of interest to us.  A Smithman thread is the right place to discuss Smithman, no?

ETA - OK, if it's boring people, I'll go and do something more interesting instead.   

candyfloss wrote:

Newintown wrote:

candyfloss wrote:

I think your try at humour has gone over most people's heads.  I can appreciate it myself, although perhaps someone banging their head against a brick wall may have been more fitting.

Why not try a hangman's noose next time, that may make more people take notice.    

   

I had a real LOL moment, CF.  Very funny.   

BTW, thanks for your work on the forum.   

WLBTS, it's not boring.

Newintown wrote:

candyfloss wrote:

I think your try at humour has gone over most people's heads.  I can appreciate it myself, although perhaps someone banging their head against a brick wall may have been more fitting.

Why not try a hangman's noose next time, that may make more people take notice.    

I just tried it, Newintown: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t9759-the-big-conspiracy-revealed#254950  

The rope broke.  Story of my life - or the continuation thereof ...  

Sorry was just having a jest, it's just that we have been through this so many times before, and we get absolutely nowhere just going round in circles because people are fixed in their opinions. 

Carry on as you were chaps, I'm awake again  

candyfloss wrote:Sorry was just having a jest, it's just that we have been through this so many times before, and we get absolutely nowhere just going round in circles because people are fixed in their opinions. 

Carry on as you were chaps, I'm awake again  

To be honest I bore myself sometimes  

(This is a long one, sorry!)

JERONIMO TOMAS RODRIGUES SALCEDAS

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/J-T-R-Salcedas.htm

Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working.

At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.

The person in question said that the others had gone to the apartment to look for a girl who had disappeared. Seconds later Madeleine's father appeared, greatly agitated, looking for his daughter everywhere, obviously and immediately heading towards the pool and surrounding areas.

Shortly afterwards Luz Ocean Club was in a state of absolute commotion. Everyone was trying to help in the search for Madeleine which was multiplied in numerous search actions over a large perimeter. The witness immediately perceived the seriousness of the situation. Madeleine's mother was shouting desperately for her daughter. The witness told another chef at the Millenium restaurant so that he would also help in the searches.

He was part of a team together with one of the other MW employees, Leanne, of English nationality, with whom he searched for the girl until 05.00. He remembers that during the early morning hours there were about 50 - 60 people searching who covered all the access routes to the club, the village of Luz, beach, amongst others. The search was fruitless. Madeleine was not and still has not been found.

Here Salcedas states that he found only DW at the table at roughly 22:20 - 22:30.  He witnesses Gerry running to the pool and surrounding areas, greatly agitated.


http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

I went to find Ze and Ricardo to give them the news and to get their help in searching for the missing girl. I saw the head of the Milenium Restaurant in the Tapas and asked him to telephone the restaurant.

I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child. We were sent to the beach zone and looked in all the alleys and called out the name of the child but did not find her. Later, we returned to the Tapas where we found John, the Manager of Mark Warner. There were many people now, perhaps 40 including the Mark Warner personnel. We were divided into groups and Ewan and Rob (both employed by Mark Warner), my cousin, Miguel, and I went in a Mark Warner vehicle to search a beach zone which included a construction site. Again, we did not see any signs of the child and after a telephone we returned to the Tapas.

At this point more people were at the location, including residents of Praia da Luz. A man named Matt who owned a club in the locale, seemed to now be the operational front. A big part of our group was sent to the beach; we formed a sort of human extension cord in our searches. We finally returned to the Tapas around 04H00. We were sent home at the time.

But here Salcedas says that it may have been between 21:30 - 22:00.  He witnessed Gerry running to the pool and childrens play area as if looking for someone during this time, no mention of him after then.

(Another long one!)

JOAQUIM JOSE MOREIRA BAPTISTA

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm

- Of the group of 8/9 British citizens who dined at the restaurant last night, as usual, of which the parents of missing were part (he didn't know them) he noticed that two individuals left the table, of the male gender.
- The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;

Baptista gives us some information here that the tall Tapas member - surely ROB - left for about 15 minutes and the kitchen staff had to reheat his food.

He also says that another male left for 30 minutes, and that this person could have been Gerry.

He corroborates Vitorino's account that everyone left the table shortly after Gerry's 30 minute absence.


http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM-J-M-BAPTISTA.htm

When questioned, the witness says that he remembers on Thursday 3rd May, on the day of the disappearance, that the parents went to dine at the restaurant with the usual people. He cannot be precise, but the witness says that the group arrived between 20.00 and 21.00. He remembers there being about 9 people in total. He states that he received the food orders from the group.

Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness' colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.

Baptista gives us a time - some time between 22:00 and 22:30 - when he found out what had happened.  It doesn't tell us when the 'crisis' hit, just when Baptista found out about it.

But no mention of Gerry.

But this statement conflicts with his other statement.  The first statement gives details about the comings and goings of the Tapas group as if he had witnessed them.  The second statement puts him in the kitchen, only to be told about events later on.

In april 2008 he gives an earlier time to the English police than he gave to the police in PDL in may 2007!
The evidence of Salcedas is like most things TM very  strange.

candyfloss wrote:Sorry was just having a jest, it's just that we have been through this so many times before, and we get absolutely nowhere just going round in circles because people are fixed in their opinions. 

Carry on as you were chaps, I'm awake again  

I am not fixed in my opinions but when I see a heading of 17 remarkable similiarities when there is clearly no evidence to support some of them.I wonder why?

 Later the same day I see a list of names an eminent member posts as proof Gerry could not be Smith man .

 This is because Gerry says he wasn't there and his tapas mates confirm his alibi. Therefore we should believe Gerry and not those awful Smiths, it does make one question things.

DIANNE WEBSTER

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER.htm

4th May 2007

They left the apartment at around 8.45 and accompanied by her son-in-law and her daughter, they went to join the rest of the group at the "TAPAS" restaurant. The McCann couple were amongst the other friends at dinner. To our question, the informant told us that given that her daughter had an intercom allowing them to hear if the children were shouting or crying, no one went to check on the spot. However, she reported that Kate and Gerald as well as other couples went a few times, on a regular basis, to make sure their children were OK.
During one of these checks, Kate came back, frightened and nervous, even in panic, saying that Madeleine had disappeared, screaming, greatly alarmed [panic-stricken; terrified].

They immediately organised search parties, in the apartment, thinking that she could be hiding in there, then outside. In spite of help from the Ocean Club's employees, the searches were fruitless.

No information regarding times.  But from the alert onwards, no mention of Gerry.


http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm

11th May 2007

- That night she judges to have arrived at the restaurant close to 21:00, in the company of the PAYNE couple. 
- That, at that time, the whole group were at the restaurant. The witness did not recall, but thinks that perhaps Gerald and MATT had not been in the restaurant along with the other members of the group. 
- In this regard, asked specifically whether, on the journey to the restaurant, if they had passed either of the two individuals described in the preceding paragraph, she answered categorically not. 
- Questioned about the members who, during the dinner, had absented themselves from the restaurant, the witness says that, as she recalls, there were some people who left, failing to identify which, except for RUSSELL who had left the restaurant and taken a little more time than usual due to, from what she knows, his daughter had been sick.

DW corroborates ROB's absence from the table.

But oddly, not sure if Gerry was at the table, and no direct mention of him at any point.

- She adds that that night, and after the occurrence of the facts under investigation, have been in the the apartment on two separate occasions. At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment. 

- The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA, not remembering any other people that were there. However, she admits the possibility of their being [others] inside the apartment, including David, in that, as mentioned above, all of them had gone to the apartment following the news that KATE had given.

DW states that she has no recollection of seeing Gerry on the first occasion that she entered 5A.

Aside from that, there is no mention of Gerry anywhere else in her statement.

cassius wrote:In april 2008 he gives an earlier time to the English police than he gave to the police in PDL in may 2007!
The evidence of Salcedas is like most things TM very  strange.

Had he stuck to his original timeline GM has a lot of explaining to do.Looks like he was got at.imo

So, some key points from the statements so far listed:

1) Salcedas describes the same events twice, but states a much earlier time in his rogatory than he had stated in his statement to the PJ.  He is the one to witness Gerry running towards the pool and children's play area, greatly agitated.

2) Baptista only mentions times in his second statement.  However, his account of events is different than before, so much so that the statements almost appear to have come from two individuals rather than one.  His second statement relegates him to a second-hand witness who only heard what was happening later in the kitchen.

3) Dianne Webster almost completely avoids any mention of Gerry in her statements.

4) Dianne Webster did not recollect seeing Gerry in 5A on her first visit there.

5) Oliveira is the only one to give a reference point - he states that dinner would end at 21:45, and that a few minutes later the table was empty.

6) Multiple statements mention that ROB was absent for 15 minutes, and the kitchen staff had to reheat his steak.

7) Multiple statements mention that Gerry (most probably) was absent from the table after ROB's absence, and that he was gone for 30 minutes.

8) Multiple statements mention that everyone left the table very shortly after Gerry's return.

9) Vitorino states that Kate left the table immediately after Gerry's 30 minute absence, and that everybody left except for DW a few moments later.

10) The only description of Gerry's movements are that he was at some point at the table (although DW can't confirm this, even as a fellow diner), that he left the table for 30 minutes, and that he was seen very shortly after the alert running towards the pool and children's play area, greatly agitated.  After this, there appears to be no mention of his movements, nobody includes him as present in their witness statements.

As you can probably tell, my diary was not particularly full this evening   

Well done WLBTS and thank you.

So all in all - there is no independent witness that can say where GM was at what time.

Woofer wrote:Well done WLBTS and thank you.

So all in all - there is no independent witness that can say where GM was at what time.

You're welcome :)

When I consider the situation where a child has gone missing, whether the parents faked it or not I expect there to be multiple and varying statements describing the activities of the father of the child.  He should have been running around, asking everyone he could find if they had seen his daughter. Especially if the event was staged. You don't take yourself out of proceedings with a suspicious absence to do 'whatever', you make yourself visible to everyone and create a cast iron alibi.

As it happens, descriptions of Gerry's activities that evening are very thin on the ground.  An absence from the table, running towards the pool area after the alert, and then very little mention of him at all, if any, until later on when Mrs Fenn spoke to him at 22:30.  Dianne Webster seems to be aware of the golden rule - don't mention Gerry.

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:As you can probably tell, my diary was not particularly full this evening    

Oh, how sad.  Have you tried on line dating?     

@Newintown - Of course!  But at the moment I am unfortunately in between special someones    

Back on topic, I'll probably leave this here as it stands.  Tony presented a list of witnesses that he claimed proves that Gerry's whereabouts were known and accounted for during the period 9:30 - 10:30.  I believe that the evidence stands for itself - or lack of it.  I really don't think that the statements of the rest of the Tapas group add much to the debate.  If we're to take their statements as truth then there was an abduction, and if that's the case then why are we all here?

Tony Bennett wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:I'm tuning in late and haven't read the complete thread, but ... what kind of question is that to hold a poll ...?

Why are there 17 similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

without the possibility to vote, that there are no 17 similarities?

I've been doing a lot of questionnaires and derived statistics from it. This poll reminds me of the very old joke we had about a question: "if yes, why not?"

Chatelaine, your point is well made, but, as the poll creator, here is your opportunity.

Here is my original list of similarities:

1. An unaccompanied male
2. Carrying a child and having no push-chair
3. The child was blonde
4. The child was a girl
5. The child was barefoot
6. The child was wearing light-coloured/pink pyjamas
7. She looked about four years old
8. She was being held on the man’s left side
9. She didn’t have a blanket or other covering
10. The men did not look like tourists
11. They were wearing a dark jacket
12. They were wearing light-coloured trousers
13. They were both about 1.75m to 1.8m tall (5’ 9” – 5’ 10”)
14. They were both aged 35-40
15. They were of average build
16. They were spotted within 600 yards of each other
17. In neither case could the man’s face be seen.

I fully accept the challenge and I would be very pleased if you could be as robust as you wish and tell me which ones of the 17 are NOT similar as between Tannerman and Smithman = thanks very much

Chatelaine, I hope you might find time today to answer my point above in bold.

I took great care, looking at all the Jane Tanner statements and then those of the three Smiths, to list all the 17 similarities, and if you think even one of them is incorrect, I would like to know from you, and have the opportunity then of responding to you. Many thanks

***
I couldn't find the thread again earlier and now it's late. But here we go.

Apart from the fact that there's nothing significant about an unaccompanied male, the only thing they have in common is indeed, that they're alone. Big deal.

The child was blonde. Only the Smithman girl has been described as blonde. Tanner only saw the pyjama trousers, but never the head.

The child was a girl. Same reasoning: Tanner only saw the legs and feet.

Pyjama colours: Tanner sighting was of a pink pyjama trousers with floral design and frills. Smithman was carrying a blonde girl in long-sleeved WHITE pyamas.

They were spotted within 600 yards from each other with a 45 minute interval ...

The Smiths reportedly couldn't see his face clearly, as he was hiding it behind the girls head and turning his eyes when addressed "Is she sleeping?". Tanner could / should have seen his face, which is the first thing to attract attention, when you see someone. But she didn't. However, she could describe his SHOES ...

Tannerman doesn't exist. I think Smithman does. What the real implications are is a totally different subject.

ETA In both cases she was carried with her head to the left. Tannerman on stretched out arms, Smithman against the shoulder.

cassius wrote:

Mrs Fenn cannot be  a good witness for GM. She confirms that he was not at the one place he should have been at 10pm or shortly thereafter.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I included Pamela Fenn in my list because this is what she told the Portuguese police:

PAMELA FENN STATEMENT

During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done

UNQUOTE


According to this evidence, Gerry McCann was plainly in G5A before 10.30pm

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Back on topic, I'll probably leave this here as it stands.  Tony presented a list of witnesses that he claimed proves that Gerry's whereabouts were known and accounted for during the period 9:30 - 10:30.  I believe that the evidence stands for itself - or lack of it.  I really don't think that the statements of the rest of the Tapas group add much to the debate.  If we're to take their statements as truth then there was an abduction, and if that's the case then why are we all here?

Thank you for posting the statements - the raw material that we can all discuss.

I will have to return to them another day.

However, I would say that despite your reservations about the Tapas 7 statements, they cannot be brushed aside as wholly inaccurate. There could for example be independent corroboration of them, which I suggest there is, e.g. from the Tapas bar staff

Tony Bennett wrote:

cassius wrote:

Mrs Fenn cannot be  a good witness for GM. She confirms that he was not at the one place he should have been at 10pm or shortly thereafter.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I included Pamela Fenn in my list because this is what she told the Portuguese police:

PAMELA FENN STATEMENT

During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done

UNQUOTE


According to this evidence, Gerry McCann was plainly in G5A before 10.30pm

If GM had been told at 10pm that his daughter was missing from their apartment would he not have been  at  said apartment one minute later to see what was going on.Not almost 30minutes later as evidenced by Mrs Fenn?

4.Some other reason(both GM) .

Jane Tanner's supposed sighting, Crecheman, had longish hair, long for a man, from the illustration. The Smith's sighting had short or very short cropped hair. 

It would be a mistake to do the same kind of thing as JT herself did - suggest her sighting with longer hair was someone else with cropped hair. JT's claimed mistake was that another man who she claimed was her sighting had longer cropped hair, but still cropped and sticking up rather than hanging long - Robert Murat.

From the illustrations, whatever the two supposed sightings were said to be wearing, their very different hairs mean, where they both exist, they aren't the same person.

To me, I'd be satisfied, personally, that "crecheman" really was the father returning from the creche, and the Smith sighting is likely to be someone who abducted Madeleine McCann. I know many will not accept an abduction, but I do. Not to say that it explains everything which doesn't add up from the tapas group - nothing does that, which means that it's natural to consider something more complex than a simple abduction alone,

cassius wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

cassius wrote:

Mrs Fenn cannot be  a good witness for GM. She confirms that he was not at the one place he should have been at 10pm or shortly thereafter.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I included Pamela Fenn in my list because this is what she told the Portuguese police:

PAMELA FENN STATEMENT

During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done

UNQUOTE


According to this evidence, Gerry McCann was plainly in G5A before 10.30pm

If GM had been told at 10pm that his daughter was missing from their apartment would he not have been  at  said apartment one minute later to see what was going on.Not almost 30minutes later as evidenced by Mrs Fenn?

Mrs Fenn says she heard shouts from KM at almost 10.30pm

Mrs Fenn says she spoke to GM just after 10.30pm.

Therefore the McCanns and their asssociates lied that the alert was at 10pm .The alert was 10.30pm

Therefore it follows that GM  could easily have been the man seen by the Smith family at 10pm.

Tony Bennett wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Back on topic, I'll probably leave this here as it stands.  Tony presented a list of witnesses that he claimed proves that Gerry's whereabouts were known and accounted for during the period 9:30 - 10:30.  I believe that the evidence stands for itself - or lack of it.  I really don't think that the statements of the rest of the Tapas group add much to the debate.  If we're to take their statements as truth then there was an abduction, and if that's the case then why are we all here?

Thank you for posting the statements - the raw material that we can all discuss.

I will have to return to them another day.

However, I would say that despite your reservations about the Tapas 7 statements, they cannot be brushed aside as wholly inaccurate. There could for example be independent corroboration of them, which I suggest there is, e.g. from the Tapas bar staff

I have posted the Tapas bar staff statements here, and they do not corroborate the Tapas 9 statements.  Oliveira's states that the table was empty a few minutes after 9:45.  Two of the staff state that Gerry was absent from the table for 30 minutes before the alert was raised.  None of the staff describe Jane Tanner leaving the table.

Please explain further this independent corroboration.