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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?  - Page 11 Mm11

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SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

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Why are there 17 similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

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Post by Tony Bennett 06.06.14 18:37

If we look at the poll results so far, they are interesting.

80 have voted.

The fact that there are 17 similarities between the two sightings (or 15 if RIPM is right) is clearly hard to explain, hence the number of people (51) voting 'some other reason'. But almost none of those who voted 'some other reason' can think of an adequate explanation - or, if they can, have not said what it is.

Which leaves 29 who 'buy' one of the three explanations offered.

Of these, just 5 (17%) agree that "Crecheman and Smithman are one and the same - he had to walk a very long way back home from the crèche" (same man).

A further 3 (9.7%) agree that "There were two virtually identical men with virtually identical clothes each taking their virtually identical children somewhere - just one of those amazing coincidences" (different men, but looking near-identical with identical children

But 21 (72%) agree with the proposition that "Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone" (no Tannerman, no Smithman)

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.06.14 18:38

Tony Bennett wrote:
Plus, if you say that Smithman was Gerry McCann, how do you explain the witness evidence that Gerry McCann was indeed in the Ocean Club/Tapas bar area during the 9.30pm - 10.30pm time zone?

If you can please list the particular evidence you are referring to, I will happily oblige.
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Post by Tony Bennett 06.06.14 18:40

russiandoll wrote:I will not explain my hypothesis...You are free to interpret my statements...
What a shame you are unwilling to share your hypothesis with fellow-members here and make it plain for us all what you are saying about 'Smithman'

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.06.14 18:40

Tony Bennett wrote:
But 21 (72%) agree with the proposition that "Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone" (no Tannerman, no Smithman)

21 out of 80 people who voted.

ETA - updating as we speak - that's 21 out of 81 people.
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Post by Tony Bennett 06.06.14 19:13

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
But 21 (72%) agree with the proposition that "Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone" (no Tannerman, no Smithman)

21 out of 80 people who voted.

ETA - updating as we speak - that's 21 out of 81 people.
True, but then you've entirely missed my point.

The 59 (now 60) who have voted 'some other reason' do not appear to have a clear idea what any 'other reason' may be. Even the articulate russiandoll cannot formulate a clear explanation for us for why she agrees that there are 17 similarities which demand an explanation. For all I know, the 60 people who voted 'some other reason' may have 60 differing explanations for these 17 remarkable similarities.

Which puts my explanation - "Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone" - with 21 votes, way ahead of the next most popular explanation (with only 5 votes)

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by sharonl 06.06.14 19:18

Didn't Jane Tanners suspect turn up just after the Crimewatch documentary was shown? Wasn't it reported that he handed in the clothing that he and his daughter were wearing that night?

If this is true then what is the possibility of this being the two who were also seen by Smith? After all, they did say that there was nothing unusual about their sighting.
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Post by RIPM 06.06.14 19:23

Tony Bennett wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
But 21 (72%) agree with the proposition that "Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone" (no Tannerman, no Smithman)

21 out of 80 people who voted.

ETA - updating as we speak - that's 21 out of 81 people.
True, but then you've entirely missed my point.

The 59 (now 60) who have voted 'some other reason' do not appear to have a clear idea what any 'other reason' may be. Even the articulate russiandoll cannot formulate a clear explanation for us for why she agrees that there are 17 similarities which demand an explanation. For all I know, the 60 people who voted 'some other reason' may have 60 differing explanations for these 17 remarkable similarities.

Which puts my explanation - "Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone" - with 21 votes, way ahead of the next most popular explanation (with only 5 votes)
I am absolutely clear there are not 17 similarities as per the list for reasons previously stated!
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Post by tigger 06.06.14 19:52

I find it unlikely that two people would independently dream up a non existent abductor.

I also feel - as I have posted on an earlier occasion. - that the details of bundleman were modelled on Gerry, e.g. The dark top, the beige trousers., dark hair.
In the very likely event that the Smiths would report their meeting on the 4th or 5th there would be sufficient similarities to make Smithman the same person as bundleman - and thanks to JT and Wilkins, Gerry would have a complete alibi.
In other words, he could not be Smithman, because he could prove he wasn't bundleman.

But imo he was Smithman, it went wrong and then he devised a cunning plan -


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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.06.14 20:00

Tony Bennett wrote:
True, but then you've entirely missed my point.

The 59 (now 60) who have voted 'some other reason' do not appear to have a clear idea what any 'other reason' may be. Even the articulate russiandoll cannot formulate a clear explanation for us for why she agrees that there are 17 similarities which demand an explanation. For all I know, the 60 people who voted 'some other reason' may have 60 differing explanations for these 17 remarkable similarities.

Which puts my explanation - "Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone" - with 21 votes, way ahead of the next most popular explanation (with only 5 votes)

Which just means that your poll wasn't constructed fairly.  The fact that 64% of voters voted 'some other reason' makes that absolutely clear.
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Post by cassius 06.06.14 20:09

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
True, but then you've entirely missed my point.

The 59 (now 60) who have voted 'some other reason' do not appear to have a clear idea what any 'other reason' may be. Even the articulate russiandoll cannot formulate a clear explanation for us for why she agrees that there are 17 similarities which demand an explanation. For all I know, the 60 people who voted 'some other reason' may have 60 differing explanations for these 17 remarkable similarities.

Which puts my explanation - "Both Jane Tanner and Martin Smith were working to a script and neither actually saw anyone" - with 21 votes, way ahead of the next most popular explanation (with only 5 votes)

Which just means that your poll wasn't constructed fairly.  The fact that 64% of voters voted 'some other reason' makes that absolutely clear.
I agree with Russian Doll`s earlier hypothesis.

Tannerman morphed into Smithman by TM because JT  was found wanting.
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Post by Tony Bennett 06.06.14 20:19

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Plus, if you say that Smithman was Gerry McCann, how do you explain the witness evidence that Gerry McCann was indeed in the Ocean Club/Tapas bar area during the 9.30pm - 10.30pm time zone?

If you can please list the particular evidence you are referring to, I will happily oblige.
Many thanks for your offer.

I take something from the statements of all the following as suggesting that Gerry McCann, between 9.30pm and 10.30pm on 3 May, was in the proximity of one or more of these locations: Flat G5A, swimming pool near the Tapas bar ('pool area'), Ocean Club reception, and that this amounts to sufficient proof that he could not have been in the vicinity of the Rue de Abril at around 9.55pm to 10.00pm that night as suggested by some on here:

Joaquim Baptista
Stephen Carpenter (9.30pm)
Pamela Fenn (10.30pm)
Rachael Mamphilly/Oldfield
Gerry McCann
Kate McCann
Russell O'Brien
Ricardo da Luz Oliveira
Jane Tanner
Starikova Vitorino
Heronimo Salcedas
Matthew Oldfield
David Payne
Fiona Payne
Diane Webster.

[15 names]

I do not have a ready-made list but I hope that is sufficient for you be able to answer my original query.

I think there may be one or two more but I would need more time to look them up.

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Tony Bennett 06.06.14 20:22

cassius wrote:
Tannerman morphed into Smithman by TM because JT  was found wanting.
So you agree completely with what I've been saying all along, namely that the McCanns have actively used the 'Smithman' sighting - since May 2009 (the 'Mockumentary')?

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.06.14 20:27

Tony Bennett wrote:
Many thanks for your offer.

I take something from the statements of all the following as suggesting that Gerry McCann, between 9.30pm and 10.30pm on 3 May, was in the proximity of one or more of these locations: Flat G5A, swimming pool near the Tapas bar ('pool area'), Ocean Club reception, and that this amounts to sufficient proof that he could not have been in the vicinity of the Rue de Abril at around 9.55pm to 10.00pm that night as suggested by some on here:

Joaquim Baptista
Stephen Carpenter (9.30pm)
Pamela Fenn (10.30pm)
Rachael Mamphilly/Oldfield
Gerry McCann
Kate McCann
Russell O'Brien
Ricardo da Luz Oliveira
Jane Tanner
Starikova Vitorino
Heronimo Salcedas
Matthew Oldfield
David Payne
Fiona Payne
Diane Webster.

[15 names]

I do not have a ready-made list but I hope that is sufficient for you be able to answer my original query.

I think there may be one or two more but I would need more time to look them up.

I'll agree to this if you post evidence here, witness by witness.  I'm not talking about the statements of the Tapas 9.  What does Gerry's statement about his own whereabouts prove?  Independent witnesses please.

You've stated on many occasions that facts and evidence are what matter.  Please provide them.

My statement is that Gerry McCann had at least 15-20 minutes, perhaps even up to half an hour, to disappear off the radar, and be in the vicinity of the Smith sighting at 9:55pm.  Not that he did, but that the 'window of opportunity' was available.

Please provide evidence that rules out this hypothesis, if you're interest in accepting this challenge.  Not a list of names.
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Post by Tony Bennett 06.06.14 20:33

tigger wrote:I find it unlikely that two people would independently dream up a non existent abductor.

You say that Tanner did - but the Irish family didn't?

I also feel - as I have posted on an earlier occasion. - that the details of bundleman were modelled on Gerry, e.g. The dark top, the beige trousers., dark hair.

Jane meant her description to be very similar to Gerry McCann? Because he'd been seen near the Rue de 25 Abril?

In the very likely event that the Smiths would report their meeting on the 4th or 5th  

Although they didn't bother to do so until a whole thirteen days later?

there would be sufficient similarities to make Smithman the same person as bundleman - and thanks to JT and Wilkins, Gerry would have a  complete alibi.

Wilkins and Tanner only confirm where Gerry was about 9.00pm to 9.20pm. Not at 10.00pm at the time of the alleged 'Smithman' sighting, though? 

In other words, he could not be Smithman, because he could prove he wasn't bundleman.

But imo he was Smithman, it went wrong and then he devised a cunning plan -

Then this is exactly the same as what I would now refer to as 'The Russiandoll Hypothesis', which I will re-state:

1. Madeleine is dead
2. Gerry carried Madeleine (or another) towards the beach
3. Seen by Smiths
4. Puts Madeleine somewhere (or if another girl, puts her somewhere or returns with her to Ocean Club area
5. All 'gone wrong' because seen by Smiths
6. Change of plan: 'Jane, quick, tell them you saw someone like me carrying child about 9.15pm'
7. Timeline says Jane saw man carrying a child at 9.15pm.

Before commenting, tigger, is that the gist of your scenario, please?
   
 


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Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by Tony Bennett 06.06.14 20:38

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Many thanks for your offer.

I take something from the statements of all the following as suggesting that Gerry McCann, between 9.30pm and 10.30pm on 3 May, was in the proximity of one or more of these locations: Flat G5A, swimming pool near the Tapas bar ('pool area'), Ocean Club reception, and that this amounts to sufficient proof that he could not have been in the vicinity of the Rue de Abril at around 9.55pm to 10.00pm that night as suggested by some on here:

Joaquim Baptista
Stephen Carpenter (9.30pm)
Pamela Fenn (10.30pm)
Rachael Mamphilly/Oldfield
Gerry McCann
Kate McCann
Russell O'Brien
Ricardo da Luz Oliveira
Jane Tanner
Starikova Vitorino
Heronimo Salcedas
Matthew Oldfield
David Payne
Fiona Payne
Diane Webster.

[15 names]

I do not have a ready-made list but I hope that is sufficient for you be able to answer my original query.

I think there may be one or two more but I would need more time to look them up.

I'll agree to this if you post evidence here, witness by witness.  I'm not talking about the statements of the Tapas 9.  What does Gerry's statement about his own whereabouts prove?  Independent witnesses please.

You've stated on many occasions that facts and evidence are what matter.  Please provide them.

My statement is that Gerry McCann had at least 15-20 minutes, perhaps even up to half an hour, to disappear off the radar, and be in the vicinity of the Smith sighting at 9:55pm.  Not that he did, but that the 'window of opportunity' was available.

Please provide evidence that rules out this hypothesis, if you're interested in accepting this challenge.  Not a list of names.

Your agreement was precisely this: "If you can please list the particular evidence you are referring to, I will happily oblige".

You have now completely changed the agreement.

I am not willing to go further than providing the list you asked for. Therefore it is for you to decide whether you will now fulfil your original offer

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.06.14 20:42

Tony Bennett wrote:
Your agreement was precisely this: "If you can please list the particular evidence you are referring to, I will happily oblige".

You have now completely changed the agreement.

I am not willing to go further than providing the list you asked for. Therefore it is for you to decide whether you will now fulfil your original offer

You haven't provided a list of evidence, just a list of names.

Looks like I will just have to post the statements from the independent witnesses on your list for you and discuss them myself.

If you're insisting on the Tapas 9 being on your list, then we're in the territory of the truly bizarre. I'll give you Dianne Webster though.
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Post by cassius 06.06.14 20:53

Tony Bennett wrote:
cassius wrote:
Tannerman morphed into Smithman by TM because JT  was found wanting.
So you agree completely with what I've been saying all along, namely that the McCanns have actively used the 'Smithman' sighting - since May 2009 (the 'Mockumentary')?
They reluctantly acknowleged Smithman as he was like a bad smell in the background that wouldn,t go away.

What better way to deal with this problem than by making out he was the same man that their stooge JT had invented.

Lots of similarities but ,as RussianDoll explained ,for a different reason than your theory,with respect.
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Post by Newintown 06.06.14 20:55

candyfloss wrote:SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?  - Page 11 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQivQAHRobtLI1XhD5Fzy5W4kU6SW3K5a02AUKbiYk6nQLkai0j

Was there any vodka in that mug, or just coffee?

 laughat 

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Post by RIPM 06.06.14 20:58

Tony this is the second list today that has very little basis in reality.

In your attempt to discredit the Smith family you are expecting us to accept the witness statements of the Tapas group and Kate & Gerry Mccann as proof of their location at a certain time.

I'm sorry but this is LUDICROUS.

Most of the  other names are very vague in their timings but I will check for any precise timings that confirm your opinion
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.06.14 20:59

RICARDO ALEXANDRE DA LUZ OLIVEIRA

On 3rd May the witness arrived at his place of work as usual at 16.00 and that he first saw Madeleine's parents at dinner that night at about 20.45.
When asked, he says that he does not remember whether the parents arrived together or whether they were the first or last to arrive at the table.
When asked, he says that he was one of the waiters who served at the table, but he does not remember whether he served Madeleine's parents.
When asked, he says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45.
He does not remember having seen Madeleine's parents leave the table for short instances, but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.
Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment.
When asked, he says that he does not remember anyone having been absent from the table for a few instants.

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

So according to Oliveira, the table was empty a few minutes after 21:45, and no reference to Gerry after this point.  By a few minutes after 21:45, the entire group had already left.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.06.14 21:05

SVETLANA STARIKOVA VITORINO

The group's children did not dine with them. She remembers that on the day the child disappeared there was some confusion, with some people who left the table after ordering, one of the meals even being sent back, as someone had asked them to delay the meal for a little while.

She doe not know very well for what reason the adults rose from the table, she thinks it concerns the girl's disappearance. She did see that one of the plates was returned almost intact and they were asked to "delay" its cooking for a while, it was a grilled beef steak ordered by a man, whom she cannot identify.

At a certain moment, only an older woman remained at the table. The witness saw afterwards that they were looking for a girl, many people were helping to search.

When the witness left for home she observed the same, there were many people around.

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SVETLANA_VITORINO.htm

- Said that, yesterday, one individual, purportedly the father of the missing, left the dinner table where a group of friends (in number 8 or 9), for about 30 minutes. After having returned, a woman whom she believed to be his wife, also left the table, there having passed a few moments, all the guests left the table in question, except one elderly lady, who told her [Svetlana's] colleagues that that child had disappeared.

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm

So no times mentioned by Vitorino at all.  She states that Gerry was away from the table for about 30 minutes, and on his return Kate left, and a few moments later everyone else left except for Dianne Webster.
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Post by cassius 06.06.14 21:08

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Your agreement was precisely this: "If you can please list the particular evidence you are referring to, I will happily oblige".

You have now completely changed the agreement.

I am not willing to go further than providing the list you asked for. Therefore it is for you to decide whether you will now fulfil your original offer

You haven't provided a list of evidence, just a list of names.

Looks like I will just have to post the statements from the independent witnesses on your list for you and discuss them myself.

If you're insisting on the Tapas 9 being on your list, then we're in the territory of the truly bizarre.  I'll give you Dianne Webster though.
Mrs Fenn cannot be  a good witness for GM.She confirms that he was not at the one place he should have been at 10pm or shortly thereafter.
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Post by Newintown 06.06.14 21:10

candyfloss wrote:SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?  - Page 11 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQivQAHRobtLI1XhD5Fzy5W4kU6SW3K5a02AUKbiYk6nQLkai0j

I think your try at humour has gone over most people's heads. I can appreciate it myself, although perhaps someone banging their head against a brick wall may have been more fitting.

Why not try a hangman's noose next time, that may make more people take notice.  smilie 

____________________
Laurie Levenson, Quoted in the Guardian ........

"Never trust an eyewitness whose memory gets better over time"

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Post by Guest 06.06.14 21:12

Newintown wrote:
candyfloss wrote:SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?  - Page 11 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQivQAHRobtLI1XhD5Fzy5W4kU6SW3K5a02AUKbiYk6nQLkai0j

I think your try at humour has gone over most people's heads.  I can appreciate it myself, although perhaps someone banging their head against a brick wall may have been more fitting.

Why not try a hangman's noose next time, that may make more people take notice.   smilie 
 big grin  big grin
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