Re: IVF - The Pope Speaks

by Ashwarya 27.02.12 18:25

One thing I find particularly unbelievable is that a cradle Catholic, however lapsed, would not know that any woman expecting to meet the Pope should wear some form of head covering, usually a black mantilla for a married woman. The Pope would not take offence if someone genuinely didn't know, but how could KM not know that? To be fair, though, I don't think she was wearing a rosary round her neck at the time, but Cuddlecat was very regularly seen wearing one in his many appearances - not very appropriate, in my opinion.

by rainbow-fairy 27.02.12 18:48

tigger wrote:
uppatoffee wrote:I'm not sure I'd agree RF. Until you are the situation where you have been told you can't have children naturally it is impossible to know how you'd react. IVF is not something you enter into lightly or without a great deal of thought. I know that IVF conflicts with Catholic beliefs but perhaps we are taking the faith issue too far. We know that the McCanns were not that religious before Madeleine's disappearance, so the desire for children must have been stronger than their faith.

I completely understand the McCann's desire to have children. It just seems odd that having gone through all that to get them, they should then "neglect" them by leaving them.

I've come across people who tried very hard to have children, when this dearest wish was fulfilled, naturally not IVF, the reality was a disappointment, one parent complained that the baby they'd so desired was 'out of phase' i.e. didn't sleep at night.
Often the mere having of a child becomes an obsession, a goal in itself. Once the child arrives, reality takes over, a lot of work, not like they had imagined it.
I do realize there are other scenarios but I've personally seen it quite a lot. I think a lot of the blame can be put on the fairy tales put out by the media.

Absolutely agree tigger... the 'longed for' baby becomes so hyped, that reality (especially if the child is 'difficult') is a massive let down...

I just dont believe the McCanns are Catholic, nor do I believe the 'neglect' happened either.

Uppatoffee, just to be clear, its only my personal opinion on IVF, and for nine years it was thought I would never have children, out of the blue I was blessed (twice). I'd reconciled myself to being childless and I personally wouldn't have dreamt of IVF - like the Pope, I don't agree with it. Doesn't mean I condemn those who do! I'm merely pointing out that if the McCanns were as devout as they'd have us believe, they wouldn't have considered it either.

I hope I didn't offend anybody... if I did, please accept a sincere IVF - The Pope Speaks - Page 2 725573

by uppatoffee 27.02.12 19:14

No offence taken! I have one child naturally and since had IVF unsuccessfully. I honestly have not considered any of the health issues. Not sure how much evidence there is to support this. Wasn't something I thought about as there was such a small chance of success for me. I'm fairly sure other people trying IVF would have a similar approach as the short term goal is most important, anything else seems so far off.

by **tigger** 27.02.12 19:37

Ashwarya wrote:One thing I find particularly unbelievable is that a cradle Catholic, however lapsed, would not know that any woman expecting to meet the Pope should wear some form of head covering, usually a black mantilla for a married woman. The Pope would not take offence if someone genuinely didn't know, but how could KM not know that? To be fair, though, I don't think she was wearing a rosary round her neck at the time, but Cuddlecat was very regularly seen wearing one in his many appearances - not very appropriate, in my opinion.

Completely overlooked that, all the other women were wearing hats ad so on. Come to think of it - when I go into RC churches and cathedrals, I always cover my arms and wouldn't dream of walking in in shorts or a very short skirt. Someone told me once about covering your arms and I've always done it, you must respect other peoples religion or don't go in otherwise.
Well, don't forget Kate's mantra: instead of praying when she was at the police station she repeated the mantra: f.........g tosser. It's in the bewk.

by Guest 27.02.12 20:16

tigger wrote:
Ashwarya wrote:One thing I find particularly unbelievable is that a cradle Catholic, however lapsed, would not know that any woman expecting to meet the Pope should wear some form of head covering, usually a black mantilla for a married woman. The Pope would not take offence if someone genuinely didn't know, but how could KM not know that? To be fair, though, I don't think she was wearing a rosary round her neck at the time, but Cuddlecat was very regularly seen wearing one in his many appearances - not very appropriate, in my opinion.

Completely overlooked that, all the other women were wearing hats ad so on. Come to think of it - when I go into RC churches and cathedrals, I always cover my arms and wouldn't dream of walking in in shorts or a very short skirt. Someone told me once about covering your arms and I've always done it, you must respect other peoples religion or don't go in otherwise.
Well, don't forget Kate's mantra: instead of praying when she was at the police station she repeated the mantra: f.........g tosser. It's in the bewk.

Are they allowed to take Communion on Sundays?
If not, why not?

by Zelina 05.03.12 15:10

Ashwarya wrote:One thing I find particularly unbelievable is that a cradle Catholic, however lapsed, would not know that any woman expecting to meet the Pope should wear some form of head covering, usually a black mantilla for a married woman. The Pope would not take offence if someone genuinely didn't know, but how could KM not know that? To be fair, though, I don't think she was wearing a rosary round her neck at the time, but Cuddlecat was very regularly seen wearing one in his many appearances - not very appropriate, in my opinion.

It seems to me a 'devout' catholic would never commit such a faux-pas.
This is part of the reason why all their marks of religious fervour seemed so fake to me, just a way of making themselves look more respectable and gaining sympathy from the public.

by Liz Eagles 05.03.12 16:51

Zelina wrote:
Ashwarya wrote:One thing I find particularly unbelievable is that a cradle Catholic, however lapsed, would not know that any woman expecting to meet the Pope should wear some form of head covering, usually a black mantilla for a married woman. The Pope would not take offence if someone genuinely didn't know, but how could KM not know that? To be fair, though, I don't think she was wearing a rosary round her neck at the time, but Cuddlecat was very regularly seen wearing one in his many appearances - not very appropriate, in my opinion.

It seems to me a 'devout' catholic would never commit such a faux-pas.
This is part of the reason why all their marks of religious fervour seemed so fake to me, just a way of making themselves look more respectable and gaining sympathy from the public.

I have a devout catholic in my family who has been trying to get pregnant for a long time. I'm not a catholic. I asked her if she would consider IVF. She said NO it's against my faith.

by Ashwarya 05.03.12 18:22

Maybe we will get an explanation for this lapse of judgement in the next edition of the bewk. Maybe something like "The Holy Father felt very honoured that we went to the trouble of visiting him at such a difficult time in our lives, and he particularly said not to worry about observing the usual respectfulness towards him if we didn't have a mantilla handy".

by Joss 16.03.12 18:37

I think that's the whole problem with religion, it has never really solved any of humanities problems, and is just another form of control in a different guise. And how many people have died in the name of religion? Religion has always been a scource of Conflict, it has never brought about peace on earth, and it never will, and that is a Fact.

And as soon as someone tries to insert themselves and their will upon others, of course that is bound to cause problems, so IVF or not, let the couples decide, because it is no one else's decision, as is birth control. Let what happens in the privacy of our bedrooms remain just that, Private! It isn't up to a pope or politician or anyone else to make those calls.

We should though be concerned with over population, there will eventually be too many people to be able to be supported on the planet, so we need to think about that for the future generations. We already see certain things like not enough jobs to go around, and that equates to people not being able to support their lives. And it won't get any better as each generation is ready to go into the workforce.

As human beings, and free thinking adults, surely we can let our own hearts guide us as to what we feel is right for us or wrong for us. But that's the trouble, not too many adults are free thinkers, and we always think that someone should lead us around and tell us what to do and how to be. Those people are no different than any of us, the so called leaders, they are just as confused as the next person, because we are after all embodiments of the same "human" consciousness. And how can these religious people ever know the "unknown", if you call God or what you will, the "unknown", then you can't know that, it contadicts itself, as does Religion. JMO though.

by Liz Eagles 16.03.12 19:04

Joss wrote:I think that's the whole problem with religion, it has never really solved any of humanities problems, and is just another form of control in a different guise. And how many people have died in the name of religion? Religion has always been a scource of Conflict, it has never brought about peace on earth, and it never will, and that is a Fact.

And as soon as someone tries to insert themselves and their will upon others, of course that is bound to cause problems, so IVF or not, let the couples decide, because it is no one else's decision, as is birth control. Let what happens in the privacy of our bedrooms remain just that, Private! It isn't up to a pope or politician or anyone else to make those calls.

We should though be concerned with over population, there will eventually be too many people to be able to be supported on the planet, so we need to think about that for the future generations. We already see certain things like not enough jobs to go around, and that equates to people not being able to support their lives. And it won't get any better as each generation is ready to go into the workforce.

As human beings, and free thinking adults, surely we can let our own hearts guide us as to what we feel is right for us or wrong for us. But that's the trouble, not too many adults are free thinkers, and we always think that someone should lead us around and tell us what to do and how to be. Those people are no different than any of us, the so called leaders, they are just as confused as the next person, because we are after all embodiments of the same "human" consciousness. And how can these religious people ever know the "unknown", if you call God or what you will, the "unknown", then you can't know that, it contadicts itself, as does Religion. JMO though.

Wars are not about religion. Wars are about greed. Always have been.

by Joss 16.03.12 19:39

aquila wrote:
Joss wrote:I think that's the whole problem with religion, it has never really solved any of humanities problems, and is just another form of control in a different guise. And how many people have died in the name of religion? Religion has always been a scource of Conflict, it has never brought about peace on earth, and it never will, and that is a Fact.

And as soon as someone tries to insert themselves and their will upon others, of course that is bound to cause problems, so IVF or not, let the couples decide, because it is no one else's decision, as is birth control. Let what happens in the privacy of our bedrooms remain just that, Private! It isn't up to a pope or politician or anyone else to make those calls.

We should though be concerned with over population, there will eventually be too many people to be able to be supported on the planet, so we need to think about that for the future generations. We already see certain things like not enough jobs to go around, and that equates to people not being able to support their lives. And it won't get any better as each generation is ready to go into the workforce.

As human beings, and free thinking adults, surely we can let our own hearts guide us as to what we feel is right for us or wrong for us. But that's the trouble, not too many adults are free thinkers, and we always think that someone should lead us around and tell us what to do and how to be. Those people are no different than any of us, the so called leaders, they are just as confused as the next person, because we are after all embodiments of the same "human" consciousness. And how can these religious people ever know the "unknown", if you call God or what you will, the "unknown", then you can't know that, it contadicts itself, as does Religion. JMO though.

Wars are not about religion. Wars are about greed. Always have been.

With due respect, Wars are about resources, and political agendas, blessed by the church, for those that take part. And war is also about inner conflict projected outwardly. If human beings really grasped the concept of "Loving one another", we would never be a part of this agenda of mass organised slaughter called war, so IMO it is a bit more than greed involved. War has never brought about peace either, as we see throughout history, and war is still ongoing today. So what has this hatred of other human beings taught us? That its ok. to kill, because we are egotistical? There are problems of our Conditioning involved also, worship of a rag we call a flag, the separation and division of human beings into geographic location and culture etc. But as i said this is just all my opinion, and i also respect yours. IVF - The Pope Speaks - Page 2 847771

by Guest 16.03.12 19:40

aquila wrote:
Joss wrote:I think that's the whole problem with religion, it has never really solved any of humanities problems, and is just another form of control in a different guise. And how many people have died in the name of religion? Religion has always been a scource of Conflict, it has never brought about peace on earth, and it never will, and that is a Fact.

And as soon as someone tries to insert themselves and their will upon others, of course that is bound to cause problems, so IVF or not, let the couples decide, because it is no one else's decision, as is birth control. Let what happens in the privacy of our bedrooms remain just that, Private! It isn't up to a pope or politician or anyone else to make those calls.

We should though be concerned with over population, there will eventually be too many people to be able to be supported on the planet, so we need to think about that for the future generations. We already see certain things like not enough jobs to go around, and that equates to people not being able to support their lives. And it won't get any better as each generation is ready to go into the workforce.

As human beings, and free thinking adults, surely we can let our own hearts guide us as to what we feel is right for us or wrong for us. But that's the trouble, not too many adults are free thinkers, and we always think that someone should lead us around and tell us what to do and how to be. Those people are no different than any of us, the so called leaders, they are just as confused as the next person, because we are after all embodiments of the same "human" consciousness. And how can these religious people ever know the "unknown", if you call God or what you will, the "unknown", then you can't know that, it contadicts itself, as does Religion. JMO though.

Wars are not about religion. Wars are about greed. Always have been.

Religion = greed

by Joss 16.03.12 20:01

Portia, Yes you are right, Religion does = Greed. Isn't the Roman Catholic church one of the wealthiest organisations in the world? So they are also on their agenda. Do they actually help the poor and needy in this life, i don't know. It seems to me that the whole world revolves on the "love of money", not the love of the Spirit.

by Guest 16.03.12 20:11

Joss wrote:Portia, Yes you are right, Religion does = Greed. Isn't the Roman Catholic church one of the wealthiest organisations in the world? So they are also on their agenda. Do they actually help the poor and needy in this life, i don't know. It seems to me that the whole world revolves on the "love of money", not the love of the Spirit.

Thank you very much, Joss,

I had the privilege of being tutored by a Fransiscan monk for zeven years.

One of his maxims was: "Take care, all things divine are being adminstered here on earth by us, mere mortals".

He died, I died.

by Joss 16.03.12 20:16

Perhaps then in light of all this, it is fitting that the Mccanns are involved with the Catholic Church. I find it incredulous that a couple of doctors, after their child goes missing, due to their own neglect, are receiving the attention of so many so called prominent figures, after the fact. Could this be to somehow promote Catholicism, in the fact that people have seen this religion for what it is, especially with all the scandals of paedophilia the church has been involved in? Could it somehow be reinventing itself through the McCanns, by them seeking some kind of absolution for their own sins, in front of the world through the media?

They will realise in due course that what happened to Madeline, and if they are involved in her probable demise etc. that no member of any church priest or pope will ever clear their conscience. That will only happen when they start being really truthful, and to stop their spin of lies, and trying to discredit others who have tried to find some kind of Justice for an innocent child that should have been better protected by her parents.

by Joss 16.03.12 20:19

Portia wrote:
Joss wrote:Portia, Yes you are right, Religion does = Greed. Isn't the Roman Catholic church one of the wealthiest organisations in the world? So they are also on their agenda. Do they actually help the poor and needy in this life, i don't know. It seems to me that the whole world revolves on the "love of money", not the love of the Spirit.

Thank you very much, Joss,

I had the privilege of being tutored by a Fransiscan monk for zeven years.

One of his maxims was: "Take care, all things divine are being adminstered here on earth by us, mere mortals".

He died, I died.

Portia, LOL:lol!: