Re: My Highlights from the book

by Guest 24.09.12 12:05

Portia wrote:
Moa wrote:Does anyone know on wich date Fiona got married? As she was wed in 2003, and thats the year M was born. So I just wonder how close to the birthdate it was taken, as it must have been taken after she gave birth to M but within the same year.

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Kate writes Maddie was born on April 12, 2003.

You mean may 12, 2003 ?

by Guest 24.09.12 12:22

Moa wrote:
Portia wrote:
Moa wrote:Does anyone know on wich date Fiona got married? As she was wed in 2003, and thats the year M was born. So I just wonder how close to the birthdate it was taken, as it must have been taken after she gave birth to M but within the same year.

[img][/img]

Kate writes Maddie was born on April 12, 2003.

You mean may 12, 2003 ?

Yes, sorry. KH says the baby was nine days premature.

by Guest 24.09.12 13:42

Portia wrote:
Moa wrote:
Portia wrote:
Moa wrote:Does anyone know on wich date Fiona got married? As she was wed in 2003, and thats the year M was born. So I just wonder how close to the birthdate it was taken, as it must have been taken after she gave birth to M but within the same year.

[img][/img]

Kate writes Maddie was born on April 12, 2003.

You mean may 12, 2003 ?

Yes, sorry. KH says the baby was nine days premature.

Yes, I knew that :) Thats why I wondered when the wedding was, and it was in September according to her book..

by Guest 24.09.12 13:50

tigger wrote:Blacksmith June 2012: on Madeleine's presence in PdL as given by the book -

From the Blacksmiths' Bureau, McCannfiles, June 2011.

The Tapas 7:
" ...... their descriptions are alive as well, full of unexpected detail, doubt, colour, disappointment, incident and emotion, giving the lie to any suggestion that there really wasn't much for Kate McCann to write about in that Praia da Luz week. Unlike her the 7 — except, of course, when they stray into certain "dangerous" areas — tell things more or less as they saw and, more important, felt them.

Can we be sure that the section has in fact been structured in the way we have described? Well, the passages of self-justification are obviously ex post facto, as they say, and therefore cannot have come from the period; nor have they in any sense sprung from the narrative of that week since they have nothing to do with communicating what happened then but are part of a quite different story, M/S McCann's continuing defence of her own reputation, the "bottom of the garden" stuff and the rest in which she first lightly condemns and then strongly acquits herself.

Then what about the Madeleine passages? Can we be fairly sure that they don't spring from the narrative either? They certainly don't seem to. Significantly our first real view of Madeleine on holiday — on the aircraft steps — is given not from direct memory but from the video made by the group. A few pages after that the bare recitation of events and lengthy descriptions of the apartment is interrupted:

"Soon after midday," she writes, "we collected the children." A highly emotional passage about the child follows — but it doesn't describe Madeleine McCann in Praia da Luz but in some more complex space: "I loved going to pick up the kids when they were little," she adds, "the moment when your child spots you and rushes over to throw a pair of tiny arms around you makes your heart sing. It doesn't happen every time, of course, but I have many special memories of meeting Madeleine at nursery at home. Hurtling across the classroom and into my embrace she would shout, 'My mummy!," as if establishing ownership of me in front of the other children. What I'd give to have that back again."

The next is on page 57:

"It chokes me remembering how my heart soared with pride in Madeleine that morning. She was so happy and obviously enjoying herself. Standing there listening intently to Cat's instructions, she looked so gorgeous in her little T-shirt and shorts, pink hat, ankle socks and new holiday sandals..." OK, OK — but this wasn't strictly the child in Praia da Luz either, but a photograph:

"... that I ran back to the apartment for my camera to record the occasion." The child herself is momentarily excluded as Kate McCann shifts time and space once more, "One of my photographs is known around the world now..." and in a convoluted mix of past and present, child and parent, tells us how it was that Madeleine had "done really well" to end up for the photograph with an armful of tennis balls, finishing, "Gerry loves that picture."

On page 65 she demonstrates how hard she finds it to "see" the child, providing not an image of Madeleine in action but a multi-layered section of her own troubled memory from somewhere far beyond Praia da Luz:

"Some images are etched for all time on my brain. Madeleine that lunchtime is one of them. She was wearing an outfit" — here comes mum — "I'd bought especially for her holiday: a peach-coloured smock top from Gap and some white broderie-anglaise shorts from Monsoon — a small extravagance perhaps, but I'd pictured how lovely she would look in them and I'd been right." She adds, "She was striding ahead of Fiona and me, swinging her bare arms to and fro. The weather was on the cool side" — here she is again — "and I remember thinking I should have brought a cardigan for her, although she seemed oblivious of the temperature, just happy and carefree" — again — "I was following her with my eyes, admiring her. I wonder now, the nausea rising in my throat, if someone else was doing the same."

Her characterization of the child throughout these interpolations is flimsy and as for the dynamics of the relationship between mother and daughter — and anyone with children of Madeleine's age knows how extensive and complex the relationship has already become — there is almost nothing.

I stress these points not at all to criticise Kate McCann as a mother but to illustrate the way in which the child does not emerge naturally from the narrative — and that is because she is not really part of it. Perhaps the closest she comes to emerging is in the descriptions of her asking her parents "why they hadn't come that night" — and that episode also, in a sense, comes from outside, due to the evidential significance it has subsequently taken on.

From these considerations it should be clear that the whole section results neither from concentrated recollection nor the intensity of her feelings about episodes of four years ago: it has been assembled into a construct, not a description and certainly not a record. Of course every piece of writing of whatever kind is a construction, a literary construction, if only by selection. But a literary construction is chosen for its suitability to express the story, whether fact or fiction, in the best or most appropriate way. This section of Kate McCann's book is something quite different: tellingly, she never "expresses herself" at all.

I have pointed out this from the book earlier on this thread I think, this bit : Hurtling across the classroom and into my embrace she would shout, 'My mummy!," as if establishing ownership of me in front of the other children. What I'd give to have that back again."

English is not my first language ( like anyone would have believed that anyway lol) but to me that last sentence: What I'd give to have that back again" seems notl ike the right way to articualte yourself if believeing the story they are given about abduction. Atleast I would only say that if I had done something wrong to end up in this situation in the first place..As she also did by leaving the kids alone, but she never admitted that to be wrong, so why use a wording like that then? If I cheat on my BF and he leaves me, I could say something like that. (bad example maybe but hope you get what i mean)

In her situation I would say something like: How I wish/ hope / longfor that day will come again or something in that direction...How can she give anything to have it back if she did not cause what happened in the first place?

But again maybe its a normal way to say things in this situation in english language, and I just missed some crusial hours at school roses

by **tigger** 26.09.12 17:12

Someone pm'd me with this observation about the book and the 'last photo' -
..... was interested to see that Kate describes the weather as being 'on the cool side' and that she wished she had brought a cardigan for Madeleine to wear...
Isn't this the outfit for the 'last photo'? Isn't she described as having sunburn when she disappears? So how does the weather change so much?
unquote

It's indeed strange, since Gerry seems to be sweltering and Maddie is very pale but doesn't look at all cold. No cardigan required for this shot I'd say.
So why did Kate 'worry' about it? Not only that, worry about no cardigan but all the same using the outfit as the reason why she was 'kidnapped'.

by Liz Eagles 26.09.12 17:57

tigger wrote:Someone pm'd me with this observation about the book and the 'last photo' -
..... was interested to see that Kate describes the weather as being 'on the cool side' and that she wished she had brought a cardigan for Madeleine to wear...
Isn't this the outfit for the 'last photo'? Isn't she described as having sunburn when she disappears? So how does the weather change so much?
unquote

It's indeed strange, since Gerry seems to be sweltering and Maddie is very pale but doesn't look at all cold. No cardigan required for this shot I'd say.
So why did Kate 'worry' about it? Not only that, worry about no cardigan but all the same using the outfit as the reason why she was 'kidnapped'.

Oh my, there don't seem to be any clothes shops in PDL where the locals buy cardigans for their children - if I were on holiday and I hadn't packed a cardie I'd go buy one - it's not as if the McCanns were poor. Never mind, Kate was loaned a fleece jacket. So much made of clothes...Monsoon, Gap, wish I'd packed a cardigan for Madeleine. As you say Tigger, Gerry seems to be sweltering.

ETA. Late April, early May in Portugal. Weather warmer than UK but still prone to cool evenings. Didn't KM have a clue about the climate? Didn't she look it up on the internet? Lots of pyjamas packed. No cardigan? It beggars belief.

by Monty Heck 26.09.12 19:44

candyfloss wrote:Completely different stories, - so were the twins on one bed, or in cots? - the quote is directly from GM in Vanity Fair and says the twins were actually in one bed ...................

GM Witness statement 10th May 2007

[snipped]

At around 19H00, he made his way to the apartment, finding KATE and the children playing on the sofa. About 10 to 15 minutes later, they took the children to the bedroom and they all sat on MADELEINE's bed to read a story. At 19H30, the twins were already in their respective cots and MADELEINE in the bed next to the bedroom door. He does not know if they were asleep but from the silence he presumed that they were. As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already done so, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.

[further on in the statement snipped]

When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open to one side, the shutters almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE's bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cots.
He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scenario that she found when she entered the apartment.

Did double take reading this statement. Around 19.00 children on sofa, PLAYING. Not sitting quietly, listening to stories etc but active. Ten minutes or so later, taken to bedroom apparently without protest at stopping play and happy to sit down for a story. Another 10 minutes or so later, fast asleep in bed. Never experienced children like this. No fraught bedtimes for the McCs, even with 3 little ones all being put in bed at the same time. Must be magiicians - no wonder they had the confidence to book at dinner table for the whole group every night at the same time! Yet after the disappearance, GM blogged about twins in bed asleep early when his sister was babysitting in PDL while G & K were away, and seemed impressed at that acheivement.

by **tigger** 26.09.12 20:39

Monty Heck wrote:candyfloss wrote:Completely different stories, - so were the twins on one bed, or in cots? - the quote is directly from GM in Vanity Fair and says the twins were actually in one bed ...................

GM Witness statement 10th May 2007

[snipped]

At around 19H00, he made his way to the apartment, finding KATE and the children playing on the sofa. About 10 to 15 minutes later, they took the children to the bedroom and they all sat on MADELEINE's bed to read a story. At 19H30, the twins were already in their respective cots and MADELEINE in the bed next to the bedroom door. He does not know if they were asleep but from the silence he presumed that they were. As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already done so, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.

[further on in the statement snipped]

When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open to one side, the shutters almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE's bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cots.
He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scenario that she found when she entered the apartment.

Did double take reading this statement. Around 19.00 children on sofa, PLAYING. Not sitting quietly, listening to stories etc but active. Ten minutes or so later, taken to bedroom apparently without protest at stopping play and happy to sit down for a story. Another 10 minutes or so later, fast asleep in bed. Never experienced children like this. No fraught bedtimes for the McCs, even with 3 little ones all being put in bed at the same time. Must be magiicians - no wonder they had the confidence to book at dinner table for the whole group every night at the same time! Yet after the disappearance, GM blogged about twins in bed asleep early when his sister was babysitting in PDL while G & K were away, and seemed impressed at that acheivement.

But if you want to find out what happened when the twins no longer slept like logs and bedtime became a trial ----Calpol being illegal in Portugal for children - the diary tells us several times that bedtimes were very difficult.
Re the bed issue, Gerry takes the trouble to tell us in the blog that the twins are getting used to sleeping in a bed for the first time......
Seems to be an issue somehow.

by Guest 26.09.12 20:46

tigger wrote:Someone pm'd me with this observation about the book and the 'last photo' -
..... was interested to see that Kate describes the weather as being 'on the cool side' and that she wished she had brought a cardigan for Madeleine to wear...
Isn't this the outfit for the 'last photo'? Isn't she described as having sunburn when she disappears? So how does the weather change so much?
unquote

It's indeed strange, since Gerry seems to be sweltering and Maddie is very pale but doesn't look at all cold. No cardigan required for this shot I'd say.
So why did Kate 'worry' about it? Not only that, worry about no cardigan but all the same using the outfit as the reason why she was 'kidnapped'.

But isn't that a cardigan Madeleine has on in the photos in the playground supposedly on that holiday- pink trousers and a pink long sleeved top which looks as though it's a zip up cardigan. So she did have a warm top on the holiday supposedly..

by Nina 26.09.12 21:00

Stewie wrote:
tigger wrote:Someone pm'd me with this observation about the book and the 'last photo' -
..... was interested to see that Kate describes the weather as being 'on the cool side' and that she wished she had brought a cardigan for Madeleine to wear...
Isn't this the outfit for the 'last photo'? Isn't she described as having sunburn when she disappears? So how does the weather change so much?
unquote

It's indeed strange, since Gerry seems to be sweltering and Maddie is very pale but doesn't look at all cold. No cardigan required for this shot I'd say.
So why did Kate 'worry' about it? Not only that, worry about no cardigan but all the same using the outfit as the reason why she was 'kidnapped'.

But isn't that a cardigan Madeleine has on in the photos in the playground supposedly on that holiday- pink trousers and a pink long sleeved top which looks as though it's a zip up cardigan. So she did have a warm top on the holiday supposedly..

Ah but Stewie it would have looked wrong over the Gap top and appearances are everything.

by Ross 26.09.12 23:23

aquila wrote:Lots of pyjamas packed. No cardigan? It beggars belief.

Just the one toothbrush for the three children too.

by Angelique 27.09.12 0:31

Going back to page 6 here

Moa wrote:

From the book:

Three days before I went into hospital, Gerry’s Uncle Pat and Aunt Alexis came up from Essex to see us – and within an hour of their arrival, Uncle Pat, an ex-professional footballer, collapsed with a heart attack. When he slumped on Alexis’s shoulder we thought at first he was just messing about. We soon realized he wasn’t. As Gerry phoned for an ambulance and I worried that I was going to need to begin CPR – which would have been pretty difficult given that my belly was the size of a small barn and I could hardly move – a delivery man came to the door with a Chinese takeaway we’d ordered. Amid the pandemonium, Madeleine appeared, pushing her Early Learning Centre medical trolley, placed her toy stethoscope on Uncle Pat’s chest and said, ‘Boom, boom!’
unquote
It's a blessing that at least one of the parents is no longer practising medicine"

______________________________
Carpe Diem !
------------------------------------------------
I recall Gerry saying in an interview, can't remember which one, but they were being interviewed by a woman and they were sitting white patio chairs, (might have been after the launch of the Book in, was it Amsterdam ?) Gerry said they were trained to respond in emergencies, this must have been in answer to a question of how they reacted on discovering Madeleine gone. So it does seem odd why Gerry decided to phone leaving Kate to deal with this emergency.

Perhaps someone remembers which interview it was.

______________________________
Things aren't always what they seem

by Angelique 27.09.12 1:22

I have found it and it seems Gerry is right!

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id323.html

McCann's talk about their daughter's disappearance on RTP, 30 April 2010

McCanns talk about their daughter's disappearance on RTP RTP

KM: And then I just literally flew round the apartment, once I realised that the... the window was open and the shutter was up. I flew round the apar... and I just flew. I don't know, I don't... You know, I just ran out. I mean, I knew I could be there in seconds and I just screamed as soon as I saw the table. I screamed.

SF: But now when you look back, you realise it could be... could have been dangerous, for Sean and Amelie, to let them behind? No? No?

Gerry McCann: I don't think that... I don't think that's right and certainly in medical training, the first thing you get taught, in an emergency situation, is to call for help. That's part of... that gets drummed into you.

SF: So it was a natural reaction?

GM: No, errr... errr... Its one of the things that should be considered for us but I think most people would react like that.

SF: It never crossed your mind, Madeleine wouldn't be able to close the door just looking after you, alone?

KM: If I can just explain what I found. The shutters which had been down all week and when I went in and there was a gust that blew the curtains open, that's when I noticed that the shutter had been pulled up.

Funny though when I have Health & Safety training the first thing I was taught was to remove hazard then get help but that was while working on a farm so maybe it's different in Hospitals, every runs for the phone!

by **tigger** 27.09.12 6:50

'Gerry McCann: I don't think that... I don't think that's right and certainly in medical training, the first thing you get taught, in an emergency situation, is to call for help. That's part of... that gets drummed into you.'

That may be true for non-medics, but for goodness sake,one calls for help to get a medical person to come and help you.

This sounds like year one advice for a medical student, not a qualified consultant. No, imo Gerry went off because he had quite a lot of things still to do. He certainly didn't call the police and the earliest he got to the OC office was sometime between 10.30 and 11.00 as attested by Silvia Batista. Imo he was busy ditching the 'anonymous' mobile in the sea.

by Guest 27.09.12 8:35

tigger wrote:'Gerry McCann: I don't think that... I don't think that's right and certainly in medical training, the first thing you get taught, in an emergency situation, is to call for help. That's part of... that gets drummed into you.'

That may be true for non-medics, but for goodness sake,one calls for help to get a medical person to come and help you.

This sounds like year one advice for a medical student, not a qualified consultant. No, imo Gerry went off because he had quite a lot of things still to do. He certainly didn't call the police and the earliest he got to the OC office was sometime between 10.30 and 11.00 as attested by Silvia Batista. Imo he was busy ditching the 'anonymous' mobile in the sea.

Why wait so long for doing that?
It could have been done earlier, on the Smith-reported walkabout.

by **tigger** 27.09.12 9:18

Portia wrote:
tigger wrote:'Gerry McCann: I don't think that... I don't think that's right and certainly in medical training, the first thing you get taught, in an emergency situation, is to call for help. That's part of... that gets drummed into you.'

That may be true for non-medics, but for goodness sake,one calls for help to get a medical person to come and help you.

This sounds like year one advice for a medical student, not a qualified consultant. No, imo Gerry went off because he had quite a lot of things still to do. He certainly didn't call the police and the earliest he got to the OC office was sometime between 10.30 and 11.00 as attested by Silvia Batista. Imo he was busy ditching the 'anonymous' mobile in the sea.

Why wait so long for doing that?
It could have been done earlier, on the Smith-reported walkabout.

Might still have needed it up to zero hour in case something else went wrong. I would think Wright and Gerry were trying to trace the mobile when they were photographed and seen by the PJ 'looking for something' amongst the rocks and texting on their mobiles.
Come to think of it, after the JW meeting changed the originally set time of abduction, some communication must have been necessary to synchronise watches so to speak. Then the quick trek through PdL might also still required the use of a non traceable phone.

by Truthmustout 25.03.13 7:29

Here she writes about waiting for the baby, that both of them did not wanted to know if it was a boy or a girl kate writes the following :

"For some reason I always thought of the baby as a boy. I've no idea why - perhaps simply because I'd visualized myself in many dreamy moment with a little boy - who knows? We'd settled on the name Aiden."

Many red flags here imo.
First she says she has no idea why she thought of it as a boy, then she explaines why , and then again askes who knows? You would think she would know , after all its her feelings.

I also find the "I'd visualized myself in many dreamy moments with a little boy" very disturbing. Would it not be more normal and proper to say: I always wanted a son or something like that?

And also as they had settled on the name Aiden, how come they ended up with Sean and Amelie and not Aiden and Amelie?

by Guest 25.03.13 9:05

That dreamy moments comment could be harmless - I for one certainly had totally unrealistic ideas about parenthood before my son was born and might have said something like that.

However, when taken in context with other undoubtedly creepy things that Kate has said in her novel and elsewhere, it's easy to see how it could be interpreted differently.

by Guest 25.03.13 12:54

Jean wrote:That dreamy moments comment could be harmless - I for one certainly had totally unrealistic ideas about parenthood before my son was born and might have said something like that.

However, when taken in context with other undoubtedly creepy things that Kate has said in her novel and elsewhere, it's easy to see how it could be interpreted differently.

As in:

"I'd visualized myself, in many dreamy moments with a little boy" ?

by russiandoll 25.03.13 13:32

they got their wish in part, Aiden is in Maddie's name if you move the letters around.

by Guest 25.03.13 13:51

russiandoll wrote:they got their wish in part, Aiden is in Maddie's name if you move the letters around.

I'm dead is also in Maddie's name. sad

by sallypelt 25.03.13 14:24

"p. 66 Having arranged for Gerry to meet the children, I opted to go for a run along the beach, where I spotted the rest of our holiday group. They saw me and shouted some words of encouragement. At least, I think that’s what they were shouting! I remember feeling fleetingly disappointed that we hadn’t known they were all heading for the beach, as it might have been nice to have joined them, especially for the kids. I wondered whether Madeleine had been OK about staying behind at Mini Club when Russ or Jane had collected Ella. I wasn’t to know at that stage that in fact they had only just arrived when I ran by. It’s hard work being a mum sometimes, fretting about the possible effects of the smallest of incidents on your children. I’m sure a lot of these worries are unfounded but it doesn’t stop us having them, and we’ll probably go on having them for the rest of our lives".
I find the above post somewhat disturbing. It implies that Kate is very insecure, as she states that the other members of the group were trying to isolate her, or at least that's what she is thinking. Then it seems Kate is blaming Madeleine for the others isolating her, otherwise, why would she worry if "Madeleine had been ok" and bewas concerned that Russel and Jane hadn't collected Madeliene when they had collected Ella?
So, the question is, what was causing the insecurity, and was Madeleine a bit of a handful, and Kate was blaming her for the rest of the group keeping their distance?

by Guest 25.03.13 16:25

The title of this thread brought a joke back to memory. A critic wrote about the film "Alexander", featuring Colin Farrell: "There are many highlights in this film. And they're in all in his hair."

by **tigger** 25.03.13 16:30

sallypelt wrote:"p. 66 Having arranged for Gerry to meet the children, I opted to go for a run along the beach, where I spotted the rest of our holiday group. They saw me and shouted some words of encouragement. At least, I think that’s what they were shouting! I remember feeling fleetingly disappointed that we hadn’t known they were all heading for the beach, as it might have been nice to have joined them, especially for the kids. I wondered whether Madeleine had been OK about staying behind at Mini Club when Russ or Jane had collected Ella. I wasn’t to know at that stage that in fact they had only just arrived when I ran by. It’s hard work being a mum sometimes, fretting about the possible effects of the smallest of incidents on your children. I’m sure a lot of these worries are unfounded but it doesn’t stop us having them, and we’ll probably go on having them for the rest of our lives".
I find the above post somewhat disturbing. It implies that Kate is very insecure, as she states that the other members of the group were trying to isolate her, or at least that's what she is thinking. Then it seems Kate is blaming Madeleine for the others isolating her, otherwise, why would she worry if "Madeleine had been ok" and bewas concerned that Russel and Jane hadn't collected Madeliene when they had collected Ella?
So, the question is, what was causing the insecurity, and was Madeleine a bit of a handful, and Kate was blaming her for the rest of the group keeping their distance?

In one of Blacksmiths' earlier articles he quotes this type of passage in the book. He concluded that the McCanns seemed separate from the group, doing their own thing.
Same with Fiona, who says that the mcCanns didn't have lunch with them although I had the impression that Kate said they did. It's also evident from other statements from the T7 that they were more 'doing their own thing'.
Which leads me to believe that whatever happened , happened very early on. 29th/30th.

by russiandoll 25.03.13 18:09

My 3 biggest highlights:

1. Kate writing about her newborn daughter's physical features, including her big eyes. No mention of the coloboma, even if it were not immediately visible this would be the place in the book where you would expect a reference to what was allegedly Maddie's outstanding physical feature. Not mentioned anywhere in " madeleine".

2. Silence about the day when M was removed from creche in the afternoon, while twins remained in theirs. For the best part of 3 hours M was somewhere, with someone, doing something. The holiday was routine, this was the one day M did not attend afternoon creche...yet we hear nothing about it.

3. The biggest: the strange change of verb by Kate when she is emphasising the value of a person versus an object, writing about Mrs Fenn's under -reaction to being told a child had been taken. There is no logical need for a verb change, Kate could easily give an object or list of objects to make the point that the reaction was more appropriate if a thing had been STOLEN, rather than a child.
It makes sense because Kate might have told her her purse or passport had been STOLEN.
Whereas Kate would never announce to anyone that A CAN OF BEANS HAD FALLEN OFF A SHELF.
Yet she chooses to write that Mrs Fenn's reaction was what she would have expected if A CAN OF BEANS HAD FALLEN OFF A SHELF.
I logically make my own comparison.....what , having more value than a can of beans, fell off something?

Linguistically and logically, it has to be a question you ask, Kate's comment only makes sense if something more valuable than a can of beans..FELL.