Re: The creche enquiry

by Gillyspot 22.11.11 17:52

Could not Goncalo have read the files since their release and if he thought applicable altered his opinion in the light of the new evidence that had come in since he left? Surely a competent detective should always be open to new evidence when it comes available.

By the way Pennylane . Awesome post and I agree with you. thumbup

by Guest 22.11.11 23:22

Stella wrote:At the top of every creche sheet is a date, which is usually in number format, as dd/mm/yy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Except for one day!! On the 3rd, it now appears in full as the '3rd May 2007'. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

On the sheet from 29th I dont see a date at all? And the reason for the 3 may to be written differently, can that be a simpler reason that it was different people everyday signing those dates ? and they all had their way of writing the date? Is that something thats possible to find out ?

Edit : After a closer look, it seems like the sheet from 30th april and 2 may is the same nanny, Cat. The one from 29th and 1 may is written by another person, probably the same on those two days, and the one from the 3 may is another person. So atleast 3 different people writing the dates here. As I can see..

by Guest 23.11.11 0:08

I think ive read from Stella on here, about the posibility that Gerry signed in the naylor child. But look at the PM and the signing in time. On Madeleine she is the only one that is signed in with the time format 14.30 / 14.15 almost all the others are signed 2.30 / 2.15 .. Also the Naylor kid.. I guess it was the same person signing out and in, that also put in the time for pickup or deliverance? Tanner kid is signed out/in using this format 2.30 and maddie 14.30 is that normal in UK ? people writing it differently? I see that Mccanns are both according to the sheets are using the 14.30 time format..

The Berry kid is signed in /out with both time format. On may first signed in at 14.30, on the 29th she is signed in at 2.30...

by pennylane 23.11.11 8:50

rainbow-fairy wrote:
pennylane wrote:Thank you so much for your kind words, rainbow-fairy[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Your posts are extremely insightful, and you are absolutely correct in that we are attempting to make theories fit - nothing more nothing less. Without any real cross-examination or interrogation of the tapasniks being carried out by the police at the most crucial time, or since, it's virtually impossible to know who is hot or cold regarding what happened, Although I feel quite sure the truth has been touched on significantly at times, the proof is in the pudding... and though we have most of the recipe, it's difficult to identify the key ingredients. Let's face it, their version of events is so spectacularly dire - it is not so much about sorting truth from lies, it's about sorting which lie is the most significant to what befell Madeleine.
Absolutely, very well said pennylane. I don't know what you think about this, but I always get the gut feelings that when the 'truth' is being touched on however small, is when the trolls descend. I had read with interest 'Theory' on the Unterdenteppichgekehrt blog and looked forward to seeing it debated here. Fat chance! In jumps garth1 ( and I think RbXHn also) and 80 pages later... Nada. No sensible debate, just trolls blowing smoke. It always makes me wonder why some topics escape, but others are jumped on almost immediately? Any thoughts?

ETA: there is one thing I almost agree with the McCanns on (yeh, I know!) - that is, the PJ. Taking nothing away from GA, who I think did a wonderful job, I have to say they did c**k up from the first second. The apartment should've been cleared and sealed, K, G and the other Tapas should've been separated and questioned. No soft options. If this had been done, I really believe the McCanns and (some) friends would be in prison and we'd all be doing something else! Considering statistics show most crimes against children are perpetrated by close family, the McCanns were given far too much benefit of the doubt (IMHO, obviously ) But poor Gonçalo was up against it from day one.

Morning rainbow-fairy, [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I agree with you about the trolls, only they don't so much as 'descend' upon us, as sit here (and elsewhere) ready to take any in-depth discussions off target, and into the realms of the ridiculous (imo). A subtle and devious attempt to assist the gruesome twosome is to pretend to be interested in the truth, but lead the conversation away from sensible debate, thus anyone looking in will be both confused and ultimately bored. Then of course there are the outright abusive posts, which nowadays are mostly confined to Sky News type bloggs. They're obvious, but often successful as they are significantly disruptive. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Regarding the investigation/CSI in the early stages... I agree there was much room for improvement. The Mc's succeeded in creating mayhem with their throngs of government ministers and high-priced help scurrying all over PDL, causing much confusion and adding to the illusion of their self-aggrandisement and importance, something they are still desperately peddling to this day.... Yuk!

by Guest 23.11.11 11:03

Moa wrote:
Stella wrote:At the top of every creche sheet is a date, which is usually in number format, as dd/mm/yy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Except for one day!! On the 3rd, it now appears in full as the '3rd May 2007'. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

On the sheet from 29th I dont see a date at all? And the reason for the 3 may to be written differently, can that be a simpler reason that it was different people everyday signing those dates ? and they all had their way of writing the date? Is that something thats possible to find out ?

Edit : After a closer look, it seems like the sheet from 30th april and 2 may is the same nanny, Cat. The one from 29th and 1 may is written by another person, probably the same on those two days, and the one from the 3 may is another person. So atleast 3 different people writing the dates here. As I can see..

That's right Moa, the date is missing from the very first day, I wonder why that was? As for different people writing the date at the top of each sheet Mmm..., Catriona Baker said she was the one looking after Madeleine's group every day.

by Guest 23.11.11 11:07

pennylane wrote:Morning rainbow-fairy, [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I agree with you about the trolls, only they don't so much as 'descend' upon us, as sit here (and elsewhere) ready to take any in-depth discussions off target, and into the realms of the ridiculous (imo).

That's right Pennylane, which is why it is very important to keep these very specific threads 'on topic'. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

In future, to protect the ongoing work on this thread, anything not relating to creche items will be moved elsewhere.

by Guest 23.11.11 11:15

Stella wrote:
Moa wrote:
Stella wrote:At the top of every creche sheet is a date, which is usually in number format, as dd/mm/yy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Except for one day!! On the 3rd, it now appears in full as the '3rd May 2007'. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

On the sheet from 29th I dont see a date at all? And the reason for the 3 may to be written differently, can that be a simpler reason that it was different people everyday signing those dates ? and they all had their way of writing the date? Is that something thats possible to find out ?

Edit : After a closer look, it seems like the sheet from 30th april and 2 may is the same nanny, Cat. The one from 29th and 1 may is written by another person, probably the same on those two days, and the one from the 3 may is another person. So atleast 3 different people writing the dates here. As I can see..

That's right Moa, the date is missing from the very first day, I wonder why that was? As for different people writing the date at the top of each sheet Mmm..., Catriona Baker said she was the one looking after Madeleine's group every day.

But on the ones that Cat wrote on she has written her name. On the other sheets its a different handwriting as well. I guess she was not alone with all this kids in the chreche? So the other sheets could have been written on by an assistent..

by Guest 23.11.11 11:25

Moa wrote:But on the ones that Cat wrote on she has written her name. On the other sheets its a different handwriting as well. I guess she was not alone with all this kids in the chreche? So the other sheets could have been written on by an assistent..

I don't think so Moa. The Mini's Club for 3-5 years, was split into 2 groups. One group was looked after by Catriona Baker, the other group was looked after by Emma Wilding. Both girls reported to their Supervisors, Lyndsy Johnson and Amy Tierney. Ultimately, it was Catriona Baker and only her who was in charge of Madeleine's small group.

by Guest 23.11.11 14:52

Stella wrote:
Moa wrote:But on the ones that Cat wrote on she has written her name. On the other sheets its a different handwriting as well. I guess she was not alone with all this kids in the chreche? So the other sheets could have been written on by an assistent..

I don't think so Moa. The Mini's Club for 3-5 years, was split into 2 groups. One group was looked after by Catriona Baker, the other group was looked after by Emma Wilding. Both girls reported to their Supervisors, Lyndsy Johnson and Amy Tierney. Ultimately, it was Catriona Baker and only her who was in charge of Madeleine's small group.

Well even so, the sheets clearly shows different handwritings on the word lobster and the date written. So she did not sign them all..

And because of the difference in the time format for signing in at pm, I believe that the Naylor kid was not signed in by the same person signing in Madeleine...

by uppatoffee 23.11.11 17:06

Moa, I have to say I pay very little attention when I sign my daughter in to the crèche locally. My mind is often wandering, or I am talking to the crèche workers, so I quite often use different date and time formats often copying what the person above me has written. This can mean I sign in with one style and out with another. My signature also changes a lot! However I must say I never sign in with my married name and out with my maiden name! big grin

by rainbow-fairy 23.11.11 19:12

uppatoffee wrote:Moa, I have to say I pay very little attention when I sign my daughter in to the crèche locally. My mind is often wandering, or I am talking to the crèche workers, so I quite often use different date and time formats often copying what the person above me has written. This can mean I sign in with one style and out with another. My signature also changes a lot! However I must say I never sign in with my married name and out with my maiden name! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

uppatoffee, I agree with you. When my smallest was in nursery twice a week, I wouldn't have necessarily noticed the absence or otherwise of specific children. I'm an observant person mostly too. We have to remember that these people were 'on holiday', much alcohol being imbibed all of which would alter observations. I would think a holiday creche would be a bit more free and easy than daycare? Mind, I've never been abroad so I'm only guessing...
I DO think the creche records are highly important though, perhaps more so than we maybe realise. Its telling that PJ had some withheld, IMO

by Guest 23.11.11 19:42

rainbow-fairy wrote:
uppatoffee wrote:Moa, I have to say I pay very little attention when I sign my daughter in to the crèche locally. My mind is often wandering, or I am talking to the crèche workers, so I quite often use different date and time formats often copying what the person above me has written. This can mean I sign in with one style and out with another. My signature also changes a lot! However I must say I never sign in with my married name and out with my maiden name! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
uppatoffee, I agree with you. When my smallest was in nursery twice a week, I wouldn't have necessarily noticed the absence or otherwise of specific children. I'm an observant person mostly too. We have to remember that these people were 'on holiday', much alcohol being imbibed all of which would alter observations. I would think a holiday creche would be a bit more free and easy than daycare? Mind, I've never been abroad so I'm only guessing...
I DO think the creche records are highly important though, perhaps more so than we maybe realise. Its telling that PJ had some withheld, IMO

My point was , that if someone signed in two names and times at the same time then they probably would have used the same format on both time signings.
As for looking and signing in time in the same format as the one above, well mccanns where the only couple using the 14.30 format all the days all the pm time..So if Gerry was siging in the Naylor kid, why all of a sudden change to another format. I would think you write times on automatic without thinking of it so why change within a few seconds?

As for why the chreche sheet on may 3 was written in a different time format, is because its written by a different person than the other days. Seems to be three different people signing the dates on the sheets.

by Guest 24.11.11 8:10

Moa wrote:My point was , that if someone signed in two names and times at the same time then they probably would have used the same format on both time signings.

Not if they were trying to cover their tracks. They would make it look as different as possible.

As for looking and signing in time in the same format as the one above, well mccanns where the only couple using the 14.30 format all the days all the pm time..So if Gerry was siging in the Naylor kid, why all of a sudden change to another format. I would think you write times on automatic without thinking of it so why change within a few seconds?

To make it look as obviously different as possible. It may be something done from a medical background !!!

As for why the chreche sheet on may 3 was written in a different time format, is because its written by a different person than the other days. Seems to be three different people signing the dates on the sheets.

It looks like the same person wrote the date for 30th, 1st and 2nd. But I agree, the person who wrote the date for the 3rd is different. I'm betting Catriona Baker did it all week and for some unknown reason, someone else did it on the 3rd.

by Guest 24.11.11 9:20

[quote="Stella"]

Moa wrote:My point was , that if someone signed in two names and times at the same time then they probably would have used the same format on both time signings.

Not if they were trying to cover their tracks. They would make it look as different as possible.

And again, why didnt he make his hand writing look different then ?

As for looking and signing in time in the same format as the one above, well mccanns where the only couple using the 14.30 format all the days all the pm time..So if Gerry was siging in the Naylor kid, why all of a sudden change to another format. I would think you write times on automatic without thinking of it so why change within a few seconds?

To make it look as obviously different as possible. It may be something done from a medical background !!!

But why didnt he try do write the Naylor name different from his regular handwritting then and try not to write the obviouse letters differently, I guess that would be more normal to try do if you where trying to make a obvious difference ?
As for why the chreche sheet on may 3 was written in a different time format, is because its written by a different person than the other days. Seems to be three different people signing the dates on the sheets.

It looks like the same person wrote the date for 30th, 1st and 2nd. But I agree, the person who wrote the date for the 3rd is different. I'm betting Catriona Baker did it all week and for some unknown reason, someone else did it on the 3rd.

Here I disagree with you, to me it looks like three different people where signing the sheets. Dont you see the difference in the handwriting? I believe Cat only signed two of those sheets that week !
[/quote

I also dont believe the Mccanns where that smart that they would preplan or even manage to pull a scam like this, sigining in another child on the chreche.... I think the answer is much simplerer than that. I will not give the Mccanns that much intellingent credit..( because from what I've seen they are bad actors and liers, they just couldn't have pulled it of )

by Guest 24.11.11 9:30

[quote="Moa"]

Stella wrote:
Moa wrote:My point was , that if someone signed in two names and times at the same time then they probably would have used the same format on both time signings.

Not if they were trying to cover their tracks. They would make it look as different as possible.

And again, why didnt he make his hand writing look different then ?

Moa, there are some things that the mind does even when you are trying to do something different. Certain letters is one of them and something that catches an awful lot of people out.

As for looking and signing in time in the same format as the one above, well mccanns where the only couple using the 14.30 format all the days all the pm time..So if Gerry was siging in the Naylor kid, why all of a sudden change to another format. I would think you write times on automatic without thinking of it so why change within a few seconds?

To make it look as obviously different as possible. It may be something done from a medical background !!!

But why didnt he try do write the Naylor name different from his regular handwritting then and try not to write the obviouse letters differently, I guess that would be more normal to try do if you where trying to make a obvious difference ?

If it was him, perhaps he thought it was different. Perhaps he never thought these sheets would get released for us all to see.
As for why the chreche sheet on may 3 was written in a different time format, is because its written by a different person than the other days. Seems to be three different people signing the dates on the sheets.

It looks like the same person wrote the date for 30th, 1st and 2nd. But I agree, the person who wrote the date for the 3rd is different. I'm betting Catriona Baker did it all week and for some unknown reason, someone else did it on the 3rd.
Here I disagree with you, to me it looks like three different people where signing the sheets. Dont you see the difference in the handwriting? I believe Cat only signed two of those sheets that week !

Then we will just have to agree to disagree here Moa. IMO, Cat's writing is consistent with every written date except the 3rd.
[/quote

by Guest 24.11.11 9:40

Moa wrote:I also dont believe the Mccanns where that smart that they would preplan or even manage to pull a scam like this, sigining in another child on the chreche.... I think the answer is much simplerer than that. I will not give the Mccanns that much intellingent credit..( because from what I've seen they are bad actors and liers, they just couldn't have pulled it of )

Who said the McCann's masterminded such a scam? What I see is possibly disaster recovery.

by Guest 24.11.11 9:43

Even Gerry himself talks of another little girl !!!

Gerry McCann at the Leveson Inquiry 23/11/11

“One(scratching behind left ear) of the articles that springs to mind actually, (moving all objects now in front of him) was a piece in a Portuguese news paper, where somebody talking to the Prosecutor and was asking what he thought had happened and erh, there was a quote(Kate now looks up at Gerry) saying they didn’t know whether (eyebrows raised) if Madeleine was alive or dead and erh, I think (closes eyes) the phone line was probably dead and that translated into the front page of the Daily Mirror (Kate quickly grabs glass of water) with a photograph of Mad’line,(frowns and corrects himself) Madeleine with a headline she’s dead,(looks to Kate, Kate puts glass down loudly) which we saw at 11.00 O’clock at night, (Kate nervously looks up and down towards the same person) we’re trying to go to bed and obviously (frowns) that was one of the most distressing headlines that is presented(raises shoulders once) as if it’s factual and it was just taken from that supposition,(Kate scratching right shoulder and looks towards Gerry) I don’t know probability, it was incredible.”

by Guest 24.11.11 9:46

Everyone who has been following Kikoraton on this very subject, will know that from day one he has written about another little girl with a name that sounds like Madeleine and has himself written down Mad'line on numerous occasions. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Now Gerry is at it. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 24.11.11 9:54

Stella wrote:Even Gerry himself talks of another little girl !!!

Gerry McCann at the Leveson Inquiry 23/11/11

“One(scratching behind left ear) of the articles that springs to mind actually, (moving all objects now in front of him) was a piece in a Portuguese news paper, where somebody talking to the Prosecutor and was asking what he thought had happened and erh, there was a quote(Kate now looks up at Gerry) saying they didn’t know whether (eyebrows raised) if Madeleine was alive or dead and erh, I think (closes eyes) the phone line was probably dead and that translated into the front page of the Daily Mirror (Kate quickly grabs glass of water) with a photograph of Mad’line,(frowns and corrects himself) Madeleine with a headline she’s dead,(looks to Kate, Kate puts glass down loudly) which we saw at 11.00 O’clock at night, (Kate nervously looks up and down towards the same person) we’re trying to go to bed and obviously (frowns) that was one of the most distressing headlines that is presented(raises shoulders once) as if it’s factual and it was just taken from that supposition,(Kate scratching right shoulder and looks towards Gerry) I don’t know probability, it was incredible.”

I think if you already made up your mind about what happenede, and only believe in that, when you seek you will always in some way find something to fit the theory you believe in...
It could be lots of other reasons for him to say Mad'line without it meaning his talking about two girl? Maybe he was about to say Maddie, or was just nervouse..
Believeing they all of a sudden had one more girl without this to be pre planned are a little bit hard to believe for me..

I deffenlty thing they're hiding something , but I believe its a much simpler and logical reason behind it..

I don't have a definite theory I believe in, therefor I look at all sides of the evidence in the case and I don't try to fit my findings with a spesific theory...

and for Cat writing on the sheet for all days except may 3 ? Oh well there I think you just try to make it fit it in to your theory.. Why didnt she write her name then as she has done on all the other one she has written on ? And don't you see the difference in the handwriting? You are using this logic on Gerry and Naylor kids writing, the difference in the letters, but not using the same logic when looking at the chreche record writing from the staff? Maybe I understand you wrong but I find that very strange indeed...

So yes we deffently have to agree to disagree ! :)

by Guest 24.11.11 10:26

Moa wrote:I think if you already made up your mind about what happenede, and only believe in that, when you seek you will always in some way find something to fit the theory you believe in...

My mind is open to anything and everything on here Moa, which is why I have only this year come round to seeing what I do now. If you can explain to me another perfectly innocent reason for two Fathers, both writing the letter A in the exact same distinct way, please feel free to enlighten me.

It could be lots of other reasons for him to say Mad'line without it meaning his talking about two girl? Maybe he was about to say Maddie, or was just nervouse..

This is the same man, who for the last 4+ years has been going on about she was never called Maddie. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Ask Milly Dowlers parents if they have ever got their daugher's name wrong. Or Ben Needham's Mother and I bet you they will both say never in a million years.

Believeing they all of a sudden

No Moa, not all of a sudden. For the last year and after closely studying all of the hand writing on all of the creche sheets, plus all the inconsistencies in the statements and the total lack of photos from Portugal and only one potential sighting of her, which focused on her shoes, so hardly a reliable identification.

had one more girl without this to be pre planned are a little bit hard to believe for me..

I would think it had to be pre planned, but that does not mean Kate oe even Maybe Gerry knew anything about it before it happened.

I deffenlty thing they're hiding something , but I believe its a much simpler and logical reason behind it..

Simple crimes are very easy to solve, this one is a little more complicated than that which is why it remains unsolved.

I don't have a definite theory I believe in, therefor I look at all sides of the evidence in the case and I don't try to fit my findings with a spesific theory...

That is your perogative Moa. I'm guessing you will now leave the creche enquiry thread alone as you do not believe there is anything wrong with the records, right?

and for Cat writing on the sheet for all days except may 3 ? Oh well there I think you just try to make it fit it in to your theory..

I have no theory as to why Cat did not start the sheet on the 3rd. Perhaps she was running late and someone else started it for her.

Why didnt she write her name then as she has done on all the other one she has written on ?

I don't know Moa, perhaps she was asked to write her name at the top of each page for the PJ to identify which group was Madeleine's group. But it's not Catriona's writing we are focussing on, it's Gerry's one.

And don't you see the difference in the handwriting? You are using this logic on Gerry and Naylor kids writing, the difference in the letters, but not using the same logic when looking at the chreche record writing from the staff? Maybe I understand you wrong but I find that very strange indeed...

I think you are missing the significance of the McCann and Naylor entries myself Moa.

So yes we deffently have to agree to disagree ! :)

by Guest 24.11.11 11:51

Stella wrote:
Moa wrote:I think if you already made up your mind about what happenede, and only believe in that, when you seek you will always in some way find something to fit the theory you believe in...

My mind is open to anything and everything on here Moa, which is why I have only this year come round to seeing what I do now. If you can explain to me another perfectly innocent reason for two Fathers, both writing the letter A in the exact same distinct way, please feel free to enlighten me.

It could be lots of other reasons for him to say Mad'line without it meaning his talking about two girl? Maybe he was about to say Maddie, or was just nervouse..

This is the same man, who for the last 4+ years has been going on about she was never called Maddie. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Ask Milly Dowlers parents if they have ever got their daugher's name wrong. Or Ben Needham's Mother and I bet you they will both say never in a million years.

Believeing they all of a sudden

No Moa, not all of a sudden. For the last year and after closely studying all of the hand writing on all of the creche sheets, plus all the inconsistencies in the statements and the total lack of photos from Portugal and only one potential sighting of her, which focused on her shoes, so hardly a reliable identification.

had one more girl without this to be pre planned are a little bit hard to believe for me..

I would think it had to be pre planned, but that does not mean Kate oe even Maybe Gerry knew anything about it before it happened.

I deffenlty thing they're hiding something , but I believe its a much simpler and logical reason behind it..

Simple crimes are very easy to solve, this one is a little more complicated than that which is why it remains unsolved.

I don't have a definite theory I believe in, therefor I look at all sides of the evidence in the case and I don't try to fit my findings with a spesific theory...

That is your perogative Moa. I'm guessing you will now leave the creche enquiry thread alone as you do not believe there is anything wrong with the records, right?

and for Cat writing on the sheet for all days except may 3 ? Oh well there I think you just try to make it fit it in to your theory..

I have no theory as to why Cat did not start the sheet on the 3rd. Perhaps she was running late and someone else started it for her.

Why didnt she write her name then as she has done on all the other one she has written on ?

I don't know Moa, perhaps she was asked to write her name at the top of each page for the PJ to identify which group was Madeleine's group. But it's not Catriona's writing we are focussing on, it's Gerry's one.

And don't you see the difference in the handwriting? You are using this logic on Gerry and Naylor kids writing, the difference in the letters, but not using the same logic when looking at the chreche record writing from the staff? Maybe I understand you wrong but I find that very strange indeed...

I think you are missing the significance of the McCann and Naylor entries myself Moa.

So yes we deffently have to agree to disagree ! :)

All I can say is that I disagree with you.. I dont say the creche records are not something that should bee looked into, and I agree that odd things are going on in it.. But I dont believe Naylor kid was signed in by Gerry.. If you believe them to be same because of the A similarity, then how can you not see the difference in the staff writings?
I just don't think its significant that the 3 may is written in a different format..Because obviously Cat didnt write them all that week. As said before,atleast 3 different staff members did if you look at the handwriting.

As for him saying they never called her Maddie, well we do know that is a lie dont we . So ofcourse he could have been about to say Maddie and then realized he was about to blow his own lie... As said before, look at all the aspects...

Simple cases can be hard to solve... And who knows if the correct answer is already out there without us knowing. Because we will never know for 100 % what happened before she is found or someone comes forward with the truth. I just dont believe its preplanned, or use of another girl etc... It just feels to movie like to believe that ( to me that is)

You are focusing on Gerrys writing, and you pointed out the may 3 writing.. And why if the police asked her to write her name on
the sheets, why only write it on two of them if she did sign the dates on all of them ? and again the hadwritting is different.. Its this answers from you that gives me a feeling that you only look at the evidence suporting your theory and other evidence ruing it you dismiss with arguments from Mccanns lies? ( like that they never called her Maddie when we know they did and that it is a lie)

And because I dont agree with you on all your findings in the chreche records, do not mean I dont believe that there is anything wrong with them, and I see no reason for you to ask me to stay away from this thread?
I just think it is important to look at the whole picture to get it correctly...
I dont know if you are right or wrong in your believes, I just see what I see on the sheets..

And yes I do agree that the A looks very similar, but then other letters look very difference... It could be a coinsidence or it could not...

I hope the truth will soon come to the top, then we can all agree pray2

Im not trying to dismiss your findings or believings, im just say what I see and if im the only one seeing it well then I might need some new glasses :)

by Guest 24.11.11 13:03

What we need to be asking ourselves Moa is this.

If there is something going on in the creche sheets, something that started as early as April 29th and we can all see this, it can only mean one thing. The deception started on the 29th and not the 3rd.

by Guest 24.11.11 14:51

Stella wrote:What we need to be asking ourselves Moa is this.

If there is something going on in the creche sheets, something that started as early as April 29th and we can all see this, it can only mean one thing. The deception started on the 29th and not the 3rd.

I understand your opinion but I do not see all the things you see and im not sure WE ALL do either. And I see things not backing up all the things you see as well..
If there is something wrong in the chreche records we should not only see the things that look wrong and pick out the parts that fit the most..
As for any deception starting on the 29 Im not convinced yet as I see lots of wholes in that theory... We cant base it all on two A's looking similar.. And when you so easily dismiss the fact that Cat did not write on all the sheets based on the handwriting wich you feel so strongly about conserning the Naylor kid and Gerrys distinctiv A, well then I do get sceptical ..If you are using that as a strong argument for why deception started on the 29, well you should also use the same logical thinking on the staffs handwriting? And also look at all the things that do not fit for similar handwritting...
To me its very important to look at all the factors, and not just one.. I need more than a similar A to be convinced..

If you believe that it started on the 29 you A) have to believe it was pre planned or B) Something happende on the first day/night and they manage to pull of a lookalike and faking entrence to the creche for several days ? And I do not believe they are cabable of any of those alternativs.. You may have another solution/ idea that I dont know about ofcourse :)

For this to have happened I believe it would have been so many people involved in it, and that is what I find hard to believe. It just would involve to many people...And whats in it for them really ?( the nanny, others outside their T9 group and so on)

That K+G and their friends could boil something up between them I find very easy to believe...For many reasons they could have done this, and I guess my believes are leaning more towards that...Not a big conspiracy involving a lot of people, police, and so on...Who would do that for them ,and why use them in a scam or even help them hiding something ?

I have the most respect for you Stella, and hope you don't take my opinions the wrong way ! After all they are just my opinions, just like yours are :) And I think its good that we can discuss that even though we struggle to see eachother points and don't agree on everything :)
Hopefully we will get the answer one day :) I believe we will, truth always has a way of coming to the surface one way or the other !
And I think K+G will have a bit in the ass by Karma.. shark

If there is no answer to this case when the Twins have becomed teenager, I wonder what they will do, what they will believe and if they will come out in public to talk about this case at all. I wonder what they will think of it all....

by Yankee 24.11.11 15:18

Moa wrote:If there is no answer to this case when the Twins have becomed teenager, I wonder what they will do, what they will believe and if they will come out in public to talk about this case at all. I wonder what they will think of it all....

The McCanns did mention this yesterday, that the twins will soon be using the internet and that's why they're 'cleaning up the internet' by taking legal action to get things removed. But by doing that they will always leave the element of doubt, even to the twins although I'm sure they're being brainwashed into believing the abduction theory and how anyone who questions them are, in the words of Jeremy Vine, vile and sick and should seek help. It is a matter of course that the twins will undoubtedly come across people who don't believe their parents and they will have discussions about it or even fights. If someone told me my parents were guilty of causing the death of my sibling I'd probably deck them.
The best thing the McCanns can do if truly innocent is to get the case reopened and co-operate with the investigation and get themselves officially cleared. That would put an end to any speculation they don't like being levelled at them.
That has always been an option for them but they simply won't do it.
And for that reason they will have to put up with speculation - FOREVER. It will never go away and it will affect the twins.
I certainly wouldn't want to live my life that way or force that way of life on my remaining kids. You can see how much the McCanns, especially Kate, have aged in just 4 years. That's the consequence of living a lie and being forced to repeat the lie and elaborate on the lie every time they tell it, even though it's obvious to outsiders that they lying.
It must be absolutely soul destroying to live like that every day, having the lie eat away at you and your kids and your extended family. The McCanns didn't just lose a daughter that night. They will know better than any of us what else they have lost by living this lie, this blatantly outrageous lie that these two so-called professionals call the truth.

by Guest 24.11.11 15:48

Moa, trust me, when I first went down this route, I too could not believe Madeleine's disappearence could ever be pre planned. Part of me even now refuses to accept this. The side of me that believes no one could willingly harm any child. But as we know, children are abused and die all the time at the hands of people they know and trust. Nearly 80% of all infanticides are committed by a parent, or someone close to a parent. We know that Hamish Campbell who is from a Homicide/Infanticide background, is part of the Scotland Yard team along with Simon Foy, from the Child Abuse Investigation Command. It's quite a set up don't you think?

Now, if you put the creche sheet evidence alongside the telephone activity and consider all the movements from all the key people, you will see a picture developing. You may not see this picture, I accept that. But it is very obvious to many that something started happening long before the alarm was raised. Measures were taken from the 29th to hide something. Just look at the tapas booking inconsistency. The group claim Rachel made the booking on the morning of the 29th. The receptionist said it was a man, that it was not Gerry and this man had Madeleine with him. Gerry leaves his telephone number at the creche almost every day, but then switches his phone off for 88 hours. Calls from Kate's phone are deleted from 10.16 on the 1st May, a total of around 20 calls on that day and the next. If a handwriting expert confirms that the creche sheets have been falsified from the 29th, the whole abduction scam comes crashing down and we will all be faced with finding out on what day Madeleine really died. It is then obvious the abduction scam was pre planned and carried out, just as the Portuguese are already claiming. But how did Madeleine die? Was it an accident? Where did it happen? If it was not on the 3rd, it could have been on any day and in any apartment. That is what you have to ask yourself.

At the end of the day. If the creche sheets are genuine and not fakes and IF, again it is a big IF, the handwriting is proven to have been falsified from the 29th. There is no other reason for them to have been falsified, other than Madeleine died before that very first entry. Everything else after that is a salvage operation.

What happened to Madeleine then you may ask? Well, I think the answer to that one lies with the original 'organiser'. The person who might have taken care of everything. All the holiday arrangements from start to finish. All of the invited people. All of the planned activities. All of the pre holiday plans whatever that may have been. I think the answers very much lie with them.

Think of the Gaspar statement and look to the wider circle of friends and acquaintances for those answers.