Question for Mr Bennett

jkh wrote:He said he did in the 10th paragraph.

Thanks Jill I know I am thick but I cant see Mr Bs responses or I cant make them out perhaps would be better said.

Regards
Nits

Nits you're not thick. They're not included. Maybe Mr Bennett has a mobile that doesn't automatically save his outgoing txt messages. My son does.

Tony only makes mention of his responses - unless you save them then you can't repeat them.

I've never saved mine. Wouldn't know how to.

jkh wrote:Tony only makes mention of his responses - unless you save them then you can't repeat them.

I've never saved mine. Wouldn't know how to.

I think most phones save them as a matter of course, but some don't.

Thanks everyone I thought I was going bonkers. and now you are all going to think I am a complete fool.

Mr Bennett asked me else where if I or anyone else could make sense of the invertation to Liverpool.

My Guess

I don't think (if it's all true the Kirwan thing that is) is McCann orientated or to help the MF I think it is politically motivated for some reason or other and it was an information gathering excersise for use at a later date. IMHO

Regards
Nits

Mr bennett, can i ask a question re:Kirwans...why go to Liverpool?

LOL I forgot that was my 1st question. The letter Mr Bennett posted else where was dated 21st of September. I can only assume Ms Butler was left to deal with Kirwans herself as you were on holiday.

From my understanding of your answers Mr Bennett you went to Liverpool because you hit the headliines and a partner from Kirwans invited you. As simple as that until you dig a bit deeper.

Regards
Nits

From my point of view Kirwans did rush the MFand to all intents and purposes putting deadlines on information required, whilst you were on holiday. Best advice to Ms Butler would have been leave it we will sort it when I get back. After all Kirwans came looking for you. You did not go to Kirwans so they needed you more than you needed them. I would have let them wait

Nits wrote:Thanks everyone I thought I was going bonkers. and now you are all going to think I am a complete fool.

Mr Bennett asked me else where if I or anyone else could make sense of the invertation to Liverpool.

My Guess

I don't think (if it's all true the Kirwan thing that is) is McCann orientated or to help the MF I think it is politically motivated for some reason or other and it was an information gathering excersise for use at a later date. IMHO

Regards
Nits

Good points Nits.

Mr Bennet did you not think it all a bit odd that a high profile lawyer from KM's home town would offer their services to you? Doesn't David Kirwan have some political connection to Esther McVey, a friend of Kate McCann? Why on earth would they want to defend you against the McCanns? this is all very strange, if you don't mind my saying.

Does Mr Bennett or Ms Butler have the original letter ?

rockyrobin wrote:Does Mr Bennett or Ms Butler have the original letter ?

That would be interesting.

Cherub wrote:

rockyrobin wrote:Does Mr Bennett or Ms Butler have the original letter ?

That would be interesting.

I've already posted this on 'Nits' blog, but here again is the first e-mail received by Debbie Butler on 21 September 2009 from Nick Mason:

Tony/ Debbie

I am contacting you in the light of the weekend’s press reports regarding Carter Ruck being instructed to close down your website and to prevent the publication of leaflets etc.

David Kirwan, one of the country’s most campaigning solicitors, would be interested in speaking with you regarding the case and to see if he may be able to act on your behalf, possibly in a pro bono capacity.

David has represented a number of high profile clients in recent years including Winnie Johnson, the mother of Moors Murders victim Keith Bennett, and the Liverpool football fan Graham Sankey who was accused of committing the crime in Bulgaria for which another fan was convicted. Only yesterday, David featured in an article in the Sunday Times in connection with this case.

His Liverpool based law firm, Kirwans Solicitors, is one of the North West ’s most established firms and includes a specialist libel/ defamation team which has acted in cases involving politicians and celebrities.

Should you be interested in having an initial phone conversation with David, please let me know and I will happily put you in touch.

Kind regards

Nick Mason

0151 239 [rest snipped]
++++++++

Note the first I learnt of this was on my mobile telephone on Monday 21 November whilst walking around Warkworth Castle in Northumberland on my holiday.

and you thought it normal?

This letter was sent to Debbie Butler only by David Kirwan on 24 September 2009.

I didn't see it until I returned from holiday, I think on 28 September:

Dear Debbie,

We are considering Stevo’s position this evening when MS will email him with his conclusions on your behalf. MS is a copyright Lawyer but remember that we do not practice in American Law and do not offer any advice in this respect on a foreign jurisdiction.

Our proposals should therefore be regarded in a purely practical light in the absence of first time and secondly funding to take US legal opinion. Should MS need you to take any action meanwhile please ensure that you fully cooperate with him we are just as anxious as every body to get the website up and running.

In passing I also strongly reiterate my stricture to you this afternoon that any activities of whatever description by way of communications to any third party, positive action on the ground, meetings and indeed anything other than simply maintaining and carrying out ongoing work to refresh the website must cease and that advice also goes for Tony on his return.

I am deeply concerned that some previous actions by you both may have done damage to your personal standing and the cause. We must retain at all cost the moral high ground for if we descend in frustration to commission of acts or behaviour which may be perceived to be less than that high standard then your case may be damaged.

If we are to criticise the behaviour and actions of the McCanns and their Team we must conduct ourselves impeccably and without fear of provoking adverse criticism. We must also at all cost retain comity with the Press & Media generally. They are potentially our strongest ally. Anything proposed, therefore, by your or Tony which is outside this box must be run past me first.

Regards,

DSK
David Kirwan
Senior Partner
General Civil/Crime Department
Moreton Office

Cherub wrote:and you thought it normal?

It was not surprising that after a weekend when the Carter-Ruck action against us was published on the internet if not in the press that a lawyer should ring and offer to help. It happens quite often when cases are aired in the press. I assumed it was a genuine offer and as I was away asked Debbie to get more details. I also spoke to David Kirwan two or three times myself whilst on holiday.

Cherub wrote:

Nits wrote:Thanks everyone I thought I was going bonkers. and now you are all going to think I am a complete fool.

Mr Bennett asked me else where if I or anyone else could make sense of the invertation to Liverpool.

My Guess

I don't think (if it's all true the Kirwan thing that is) is McCann orientated or to help the MF I think it is politically motivated for some reason or other and it was an information gathering excersise for use at a later date. IMHO

Regards
Nits

Good points Nits.

Mr Bennet did you not think it all a bit odd that a high profile lawyer from KM's home town would offer their services to you? Doesn't David Kirwan have some political connection to Esther McVey, a friend of Kate McCann? Why on earth would they want to defend you against the McCanns? this is all very strange, if you don't mind my saying.

Cherub

The point is Mr Kirwan was the Conservative whip he later went his own way and has become an Independant standing against Ms Ms Mcvey.

Kirwans also have a new department headed by Sandy whatever his name is to help activists and politcal people Mr B falls in both of those categories.

A MERSEYSIDE law firm has set up a dedicated political unit after taking on a large number of libel cases involving politicians and activists.

Kirwans Solicitors, which has offices in Liverpool and Wirral, made the move after acting in six such cases in six months. They say more are in the pipeline.

The new team is headed by defamation expert Michael Sandys, who is also a partner and head of Kirwans' commercial team. He is supported by senior partner David Kirwan, Wirral's only independent councillor.


Among the cases Kirwans have recently taken on is Wirral West Tory parliamentary candidate Esther McVey's libel fight with sitting Labour MP Stephen Hesford.

The firm has also acted for Margaret Kalil, a former chairwoman of Wirral West Conservatives. Mrs Kalil successfully forced an apology and compensation from another senior Tory, Cllr David Elderton, after a series of unfounded email allegations.

Mr Sandys said: "We live in a society where we are constantly surrounded by news, gossip, speculation and innuendo through many different mediums.

"The days when we depended for our information solely on our newspapers, TV and radio have long since gone. Now we are just as likely to hear via websites, blogs, emails, mobile phone texts and social networking sites. While there are many undoubted benefits to these advances in technology, there are also dangers.

"One of the most serious and potentially costly is the greater risk that people will be libelled or slandered."

But not everyone has welcomed the opening of the new department.

Labour councillor and leader of Wirral Borough Council, Steve Foulkes, said: "In an ideal world, we wouldn't need such a business. If everyone played with a straight bat we wouldn't need this type of company."

Mr Sandys added: "Our professional experience in recent months shows that no area of life is more susceptible than politics, both national and local. My colleagues and I in the Kirwans team are currently handling a wide range of defamation claims involving politicians of all parties including libel, slander and malicious falsehood. We also advise upon various legal issues regarding political parties, including expulsions and employment issues.

"In the light of this, we have taken the decision to create a dedicated political unit within the commercial department. The team is unique in that we can offer both expert legal advice and an intricate knowledge of the political scene through David's experience as an independent councillor in Wirral

http://www.thelegalweek.merseyblogs.co.uk/2008/12/libel_cases_spur_kirwans_to_se.ht

Yet after all the times Mr Bennett has said "show the evidence" he cannot produce his own evidence to back up anything to do with Kirwans.

Nits wrote:

Cherub wrote:

Nits wrote:Thanks everyone I thought I was going bonkers. and now you are all going to think I am a complete fool.

Mr Bennett asked me else where if I or anyone else could make sense of the invertation to Liverpool.

My Guess

I don't think (if it's all true the Kirwan thing that is) is McCann orientated or to help the MF I think it is politically motivated for some reason or other and it was an information gathering excersise for use at a later date. IMHO

Regards
Nits

Good points Nits.

Mr Bennet did you not think it all a bit odd that a high profile lawyer from KM's home town would offer their services to you? Doesn't David Kirwan have some political connection to Esther McVey, a friend of Kate McCann? Why on earth would they want to defend you against the McCanns? this is all very strange, if you don't mind my saying.

Cherub

The point is Mr Kirwan was the Conservative whip he later went his own way and has become an Independant standing against Ms Ms Mcvey.

Kirwans also have a new department headed by Sandy whatever his name is to help activists and politcal people Mr B falls in both of those categories.

A MERSEYSIDE law firm has set up a dedicated political unit after taking on a large number of libel cases involving politicians and activists.

Kirwans Solicitors, which has offices in Liverpool and Wirral, made the move after acting in six such cases in six months. They say more are in the pipeline.

The new team is headed by defamation expert Michael Sandys, who is also a partner and head of Kirwans' commercial team. He is supported by senior partner David Kirwan, Wirral's only independent councillor.


Among the cases Kirwans have recently taken on is Wirral West Tory parliamentary candidate Esther McVey's libel fight with sitting Labour MP Stephen Hesford.

The firm has also acted for Margaret Kalil, a former chairwoman of Wirral West Conservatives. Mrs Kalil successfully forced an apology and compensation from another senior Tory, Cllr David Elderton, after a series of unfounded email allegations.

Mr Sandys said: "We live in a society where we are constantly surrounded by news, gossip, speculation and innuendo through many different mediums.

"The days when we depended for our information solely on our newspapers, TV and radio have long since gone. Now we are just as likely to hear via websites, blogs, emails, mobile phone texts and social networking sites. While there are many undoubted benefits to these advances in technology, there are also dangers.

"One of the most serious and potentially costly is the greater risk that people will be libelled or slandered."

But not everyone has welcomed the opening of the new department.

Labour councillor and leader of Wirral Borough Council, Steve Foulkes, said: "In an ideal world, we wouldn't need such a business. If everyone played with a straight bat we wouldn't need this type of company."

Mr Sandys added: "Our professional experience in recent months shows that no area of life is more susceptible than politics, both national and local. My colleagues and I in the Kirwans team are currently handling a wide range of defamation claims involving politicians of all parties including libel, slander and malicious falsehood. We also advise upon various legal issues regarding political parties, including expulsions and employment issues.

"In the light of this, we have taken the decision to create a dedicated political unit within the commercial department. The team is unique in that we can offer both expert legal advice and an intricate knowledge of the political scene through David's experience as an independent councillor in Wirral

http://www.thelegalweek.merseyblogs.co.uk/2008/12/libel_cases_spur_kirwans_to_se.ht

He acted for Ms McVey, friend of Kate McCann. Am I missing something here?

Nits wrote:

Cherub wrote:

Nits wrote:Thanks everyone I thought I was going bonkers. and now you are all going to think I am a complete fool.

Mr Bennett asked me else where if I or anyone else could make sense of the invertation to Liverpool.

My Guess

I don't think (if it's all true the Kirwan thing that is) is McCann orientated or to help the MF I think it is politically motivated for some reason or other and it was an information gathering excersise for use at a later date. IMHO

Regards
Nits

Good points Nits.

Mr Bennet did you not think it all a bit odd that a high profile lawyer from KM's home town would offer their services to you? Doesn't David Kirwan have some political connection to Esther McVey, a friend of Kate McCann? Why on earth would they want to defend you against the McCanns? this is all very strange, if you don't mind my saying.

Cherub

The point is Mr Kirwan was the Conservative whip he later went his own way and has become an Independant standing against Ms Ms Mcvey.

Kirwans also have a new department headed by Sandy whatever his name is to help activists and politcal people Mr B falls in both of those categories.

A MERSEYSIDE law firm has set up a dedicated political unit after taking on a large number of libel cases involving politicians and activists.

Kirwans Solicitors, which has offices in Liverpool and Wirral, made the move after acting in six such cases in six months. They say more are in the pipeline.

The new team is headed by defamation expert Michael Sandys, who is also a partner and head of Kirwans' commercial team. He is supported by senior partner David Kirwan, Wirral's only independent councillor.


Among the cases Kirwans have recently taken on is Wirral West Tory parliamentary candidate Esther McVey's libel fight with sitting Labour MP Stephen Hesford.

The firm has also acted for Margaret Kalil, a former chairwoman of Wirral West Conservatives. Mrs Kalil successfully forced an apology and compensation from another senior Tory, Cllr David Elderton, after a series of unfounded email allegations.

Mr Sandys said: "We live in a society where we are constantly surrounded by news, gossip, speculation and innuendo through many different mediums.

"The days when we depended for our information solely on our newspapers, TV and radio have long since gone. Now we are just as likely to hear via websites, blogs, emails, mobile phone texts and social networking sites. While there are many undoubted benefits to these advances in technology, there are also dangers.

"One of the most serious and potentially costly is the greater risk that people will be libelled or slandered."

But not everyone has welcomed the opening of the new department.

Labour councillor and leader of Wirral Borough Council, Steve Foulkes, said: "In an ideal world, we wouldn't need such a business. If everyone played with a straight bat we wouldn't need this type of company."

Mr Sandys added: "Our professional experience in recent months shows that no area of life is more susceptible than politics, both national and local. My colleagues and I in the Kirwans team are currently handling a wide range of defamation claims involving politicians of all parties including libel, slander and malicious falsehood. We also advise upon various legal issues regarding political parties, including expulsions and employment issues.

"In the light of this, we have taken the decision to create a dedicated political unit within the commercial department. The team is unique in that we can offer both expert legal advice and an intricate knowledge of the political scene through David's experience as an independent councillor in Wirral

http://www.thelegalweek.merseyblogs.co.uk/2008/12/libel_cases_spur_kirwans_to_se.ht

Yep you missed the bit highlighted in Red but not a lot else

Nits

Cherub wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:I'm second guessing high profile lawyers like high profile case. Nothing like a high profile case to promote their name/reputation.

Yes, it did sound bit odd but then the mccanns name attracts the odds.

thanks Aiyoyo.

thing is Liverpool is quite supportive of the McCanns. my own extended and very large family are mostly in support and have never questioned anything other than an abduction. the local newspapers have never written anything adverse and Everton football club have also shown support.

it would hardly promote Kirwans reputation to be seen supporting Mr Bennet, who is accused of stalking the McCanns at least I don't think so. i would imagine them batting for the McCanns in someway, but not for Mr Bennet or the MF for that matter

who exactly is Mr Mason? do you know?

Sorry, havent a clue who Mr Mason is.

Take this out of the Liverpool context and you will realise other than a small minority in KM's county, people in the wider area of Liverpool, rest of UK and the World would view the mccanns differently (more objectively) than that small minority.

Now that we know Kirwans initiated the approach to MF, we can only assume Kirwans saw something in the case they could work on. If TB dares this all the way to court, can you imagine the publicity for Kirwans to represent an unorthodox non-practising lawyer (an activist and campaigner) on one hand vs. a pair of doctors in the most high profile missing person case of the century (by extension also CR)?

Do not underestimate the power of media communications- thanks to satellite/cable, news of the mccanns case had been beamed into every household with a TV in the world. Even foreign press covered the story.

You just have to broaden the vision beyond merely Liverpool to understand why Kirwans would represent MF. Had this gone to Court, the World would hear of it, and the fame this would have gotten Kirwans!

aiyoyo wrote:

Cherub wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:I'm second guessing high profile lawyers like high profile case. Nothing like a high profile case to promote their name/reputation.

Yes, it did sound bit odd but then the mccanns name attracts the odds.

thanks Aiyoyo.

thing is Liverpool is quite supportive of the McCanns. my own extended and very large family are mostly in support and have never questioned anything other than an abduction. the local newspapers have never written anything adverse and Everton football club have also shown support.

it would hardly promote Kirwans reputation to be seen supporting Mr Bennet, who is accused of stalking the McCanns at least I don't think so. i would imagine them batting for the McCanns in someway, but not for Mr Bennet or the MF for that matter

who exactly is Mr Mason? do you know?

Sorry, havent a clue who Mr Mason is.

Take this out of the Liverpool context and you will realise other than a small minority in KM's county, people in the wider area of Liverpool, rest of UK and the World would view the mccanns differently (more objectively) than that small minority.

Now that we know Kirwans initiated the approach to MF, we can only assume Kirwans saw something in the case they could work on. If TB dares this all the way to court, can you imagine the publicity for Kirwans to represent an unorthodox non-practising lawyer (an activist and campaigner) on one hand vs. a pair of doctors in the most high profile missing person case of the century (by extension also CR)?

Do not underestimate the power of media communications- thanks to satellite/cable, news of the mccanns case had been beamed into every household with a TV in the world. Even foreign press covered the story.

You just have to broaden the vision beyond merely Liverpool to understand why Kirwans would represent MF. Had this gone to Court, the World would hear of it, and the fame this would have gotten Kirwans!

Not sure that the fame of that sort of lost case would do them a great deal of good.

Vaguely,

You are been presumptious without good valid ground!

Presumptuous that it would be a lost case? Sorry, I was just going by the fact that Mr Bennett didn't pursue it.

I thought previously he had claimed it a bit of a lost cause no?

aiyoyo wrote:Now that we know Kirwans initiated the approach to MF, we can only assume Kirwans saw something in the case they could work on. If TB dares this all the way to court, can you imagine the publicity for Kirwans to represent an unorthodox non-practising lawyer (an activist and campaigner) on one hand vs. a pair of doctors in the most high profile missing person case of the century (by extension also CR)?

Do not underestimate the power of media communications- thanks to satellite/cable, news of the mccanns case had been beamed into every household with a TV in the world. Even foreign press covered the story.

You just have to broaden the vision beyond merely Liverpool to understand why Kirwans would represent MF. Had this gone to Court, the World would hear of it, and the fame this would have gotten Kirwans!

Some interesting points there, aiyoyo.

See how much is confirmed or otherwise by this letter sent and received by me from David Kirwan on 30 September 2009, two days before our trip to see Kirwans in Liverpool, and my first day back after my Northumberland holiday.

Up to the moment we had an approach from Kirwans, neither of us felt we could afford libel lawyers though with the help of a local Solicitor we were exploring the possibility of obtaining a barrister's opinion. In that context, the possible offer of 'pro bono' help from libel Solicitors, whether they were based in London, Liverpool or Timbuktu, was obviously of very great interest.

Dear Mr Bennett,

Thank you for your message. I have entertained serious concerns about accepting this case in the light of earlier attempts that I made to try and bring forward our first meeting with you and Mrs Butler.

I am glad now that you are both now available on Friday to come to Liverpool and I am looking forward to meeting you, the author of the booklet which first engaged my interest some months ago..

We have already done a lot of work on the case in your absence on holiday which may well be evident from the email exchanges into which you have been copied.

Will you please in future copy Michael Sandys into any messages? This will save time. I will ask MS to scan and copy to you the correspondence with CR to which you refer.

I do not think that any useful purpose would be gained at this early stage if I engage in debate with you about the Human Rights issues which this litigation will inevitably spawn. They are self evident.

The biggest problem that we face initially is instructing two counsel with an absence of funding. To engage leading and junior counsel of competence and experience on the basis only of a no-win-no-fee agreement may prove very difficult in a case of this complexity and notoriety. I approached Michael Mansfield a celebrated QC and he turned instructions down. But we are trying.

You must leave any decisions on sending letters to CR to MS and me. Equally I regret that I may not necessarily prepare the response to the letter of claim along the lines that you seek and indeed on a ‘draft’ which I have not yet seen. You must not, with respect, dictate to us how we are to reply.

This is a Libel case and the format of correspondence and indeed subsequent pleadings, if indeed a writ is issued, are very specialist and formal. I cannot allow our hands to be tied in the manner that you appear to suggest. I am sorry if my comments appear somewhat blunt but I need to get this across to you.

Nevertheless, I of course welcome without reservation all your observations and comments which I am confident will prove of invaluable help in the long fight ahead.

Equally on the subject of an extension of time I will not send a letter in the terms that you suggest. To do so would appear to CR quite unprofessional and be suggestive of inexperience in these cases. MS is already making efforts to persuade them to further extend the deadline for the reply. You must leave us to take all necessary and appropriate steps on your behalf in a professional manner. Please let me have by tomorrow morning a copy of your draft response to CR’s original letter of claim.

Regards,

DSK

vaguely wrote:Presumptuous that it would be a lost case? Sorry, I was just going by the fact that Mr Bennett didn't pursue it.

I thought previously he had claimed it a bit of a lost cause no?

Fair enough to the 1st bit. I was merely pointing out to Cherub why a highly reputable firm like Kirwans had considered representing MF.

As to the latter, I believe it was a case of a real fear of losing a roof over his head, than the stand up of the leaflet contents because as Kirwans advised, libel is difficult and no one can predict the direction it will take. To me that doesn't necessay equate lost cause - just didnt dare take the risk, that's all. I suppose it's fairly safe to say had MF has a rich financial backer providing unlimited and unconditional support, then taking it all the way is a given.

I am glad now that you are both now available on Friday to come to Liverpool and I am looking forward to meeting you, the author of the booklet which first engaged my interest some months ago..

Mr Bennett, does this refer to when he first heard about the booklet, or was he aware of the booklet before it hit the headlines?

ty