The fridge

IMO the freezer regarding Murat was surely not in his house. But he had access to other houses, empty houses.
Again IMO the body didn't went straight to the freezer, was buried and later when it was moved was stored in the freezer for a small period of time. Leaving of course an horrendous smell so, freezer dumped.

suzyjohnson wrote:Personally, I have never believed that there was a fridge / freezer involved in this story, I think it more likely that a natural occurrence could have accounted for fluids found in the car, the cooling effect of seawater for example.

However, if a fridge / freezer is relevant, it won't be Murat who has anything to do with it, why would anyone enlist his help and then try to make out that he was responsible for an abduction? The first thing Murat, or anyone, would do under those circumstances would tell the whole truth straight away IMO.

Much more likely a close friend of one of the Tapas group, with a completely different surname, hired another apartment in the vicinity (without actually going to PdL), possibly being given a very good reason why, that they all needed to be able to keep away from the media for example.

 
 
 
 
That is my theory too. The child was kept for a short time at see, maybe under a rock close to the waves, and later transported to an apartment somewhere where there is a freezer. If that happened, the PJ must have found sand with DNA in the boot of the car.
I don't believe that Madeleine is buried somewhere.  Digging a hole takes time, it attrackts the attention and besides the ground in Algarve is very hard. I believe she was in a freezer in an apartment.Of course the PJ  immediately suspected the parents and the friends, that same night,they are not stupid. And they acted that they believed in the abduction.
 
It is also possible that she could be buried at the Anglican residence near the chrurch and the reason why the Hubbards left Portugal and why Mrs. Hubbard met Kate in Praia da Luz, short ago.
Or even in the kript of the church, and it happened during a night.
 
Citing Andy Redwood:  everything is possible.
But Maddie's body never left Luz, in my opinion.
 
all in my opinion.

tigger wrote:

suzyjohnson wrote:Personally, I have never believed that there was a fridge / freezer involved in this story, I think it more likely that a natural occurrence could have accounted for fluids found in the car, the cooling effect of seawater for example.

However, if a fridge / freezer is relevant, it won't be Murat who has anything to do with it, why would anyone enlist his help and then try to make out that he was responsible for an abduction? The first thing Murat, or anyone, would do under those circumstances would tell the whole truth straight away IMO.

Much more likely a close friend of one of the Tapas group, with a completely different surname, hired another apartment in the vicinity (without actually going to PdL), possibly being given a very good reason why, that they all needed to be able to keep away from the media for example.

Just where would that cooling seawater have come from in the back of a car?

Why shouldn't a close friend of the Tapas group have a completely different surname? That's pretty likely isn't it? I don't understand the last paragraph at all I'm afraid.
They did anything but keep away from the media, having been the very people who summoned them.

 
Tigger, Amaral had said that fluids would only be in the car if the body had been kept cool the previous two weeks (otherwise it would have dried out) I suggested, therefore that the sea would have been cool enough, without need of a fridge / freezer. 

Also, I said that, in the event they had used a fridge / freezer that I thought Murat would not have been involved in any of this.
However, it might have been easy enough for any of the Tapas group to ask a friend to book an apartment for two weeks, in which there would be a fridge / freezer.
How would the police be able to link another apartment to any of the Tapas group, if the friend with a different surname booked it?
The friend, didn't need to be told the reason for booking the apartment either, they could just have told the friend (in the Uk or any country really) that they just wanted somewhere they could stay away from the media.
Then, they could just repay the friend in cash later on, and who would know?
In fact, the more I think about it, the more plausible that seems to be.

Both the PJ's dogs (there were several sets of dogs) and the CSI dogs inspected large tracts of the beach and the rocks. Nada.
Way too risky to hide a body there.

marconi wrote:

suzyjohnson wrote:Personally, I have never believed that there was a fridge / freezer involved in this story, I think it more likely that a natural occurrence could have accounted for fluids found in the car, the cooling effect of seawater for example.

However, if a fridge / freezer is relevant, it won't be Murat who has anything to do with it, why would anyone enlist his help and then try to make out that he was responsible for an abduction? The first thing Murat, or anyone, would do under those circumstances would tell the whole truth straight away IMO.

Much more likely a close friend of one of the Tapas group, with a completely different surname, hired another apartment in the vicinity (without actually going to PdL), possibly being given a very good reason why, that they all needed to be able to keep away from the media for example.

 
 
 
 
That is my theory too. The child was kept for a short time at see, maybe under a rock close to the waves, and later transported to an apartment somewhere where there is a freezer. If that happened, the PJ must have found sand with DNA in the boot of the car.
I don't believe that Madeleine is buried somewhere.  Digging a hole takes time, it attrackts the attention and besides the ground in Algarve is very hard. I believe she was in a freezer in an apartment.Of course the PJ  immediately suspected the parents and the friends, that same night,they are not stupid. And they acted that they believed in the abduction.
 
It is also possible that she could be buried at the Anglican residence near the chrurch and the reason why the Hubbards left Portugal and why Mrs. Hubbard met Kate in Praia da Luz, short ago.
Or even in the kript of the church, and it happened during a night.
 
Citing Andy Redwood:  everything is possible.
But Maddie's body never left Luz, in my opinion.
 
all in my opinion.

IMO leaving the body in the water would attract even more attention. Under a rock it had to be a very heavy rock and there's always the tides, the fishermen, people in the beach. Someone with knowledge of PDL zone would know the abandoned fields and suitable places for a burial. The ground may be hard, but Pat Brown found the Rex dog grave so it's possible to bury something there.
There was much talk about the church in the earlier days, but I don't believe the body was ever there. Father Pacheco would have to know if it was and IMO he would've tiped the cops about it. Yes the Mcs had the church keys, but it was given to them by John Geraghty so IMO his house would be more suitable than the church.
And they didn't had to keep away from the press as it was impossible, but they could lead the press to someplace with them while someone else was doing the job ( hence the Huelva trip ). All again IMO.

tigger wrote:Both the PJ's dogs (there were several sets of dogs) and the CSI dogs inspected large tracts of the beach and the rocks. Nada.
Way too risky to hide a body there.

 Yes they did and it possibly was too risky, Tigger.

However, I wonder how much of the events were down to chance, perhaps it was just chance that the body wasn't discovered earlier?
Perhaps it didn't matter too much if the body was found within the first few days? They could claim an abductor was responsible for a head wound for example.

Perhaps her body was moved after two weeks to provide a private funeral? (After all, if her body had been found, the police would have released it to the family for burial eventually) 

But, actually, with what has been said about hospital procedures etc in this thread, I am starting to think perhaps there was a fridge / freezer after all

The little supermarket would surely have had freezers? Didn't a scent trail go cold in that area? (Excuse the pun.) Who owned the supermarket?

suzyjohnson wrote:

tigger wrote:Both the PJ's dogs (there were several sets of dogs) and the CSI dogs inspected large tracts of the beach and the rocks. Nada.
Way too risky to hide a body there.

 Yes they did and it possibly was too risky, Tigger.

However, I wonder how much of the events were down to chance, perhaps it was just chance that the body wasn't discovered earlier?
Perhaps it didn't matter too much if the body was found within the first few days? They could claim an abductor was responsible for a head wound for example.

Perhaps her body was moved after two weeks to provide a private funeral? (After all, if her body had been found, the police would have released it to the family for burial eventually) 

But, actually, with what has been said about hospital procedures etc in this thread, I am starting to think perhaps there was a fridge / freezer after all

There's some things that could not be pinned on the abductor, for example: old abuse marks, some drug in her system that's not available in Portugal or even a prescription needing drug or marks of a resuscitation attempt that could only have been done by someone with medical knowledge. This being said I have to point that I believe the plan was for the body to be discovered but that changed ( maybe because the money would stop coming in if that happened ).All IMHO.

Yes, Ayniia, much would depend on the reason for a cover up in the first place

Didn't Amaral say in his book that there was an apartment in PDL where the McCanns went regularly. He believed it to be a pink building, but he never discovered where it was.

finch wrote:Didn't Amaral say in his book that there was an apartment in PDL where the McCanns went regularly. He believed it to be a pink building, but he never discovered where it was.

I live in a village about the same size as PdL.
If the police wanted to, they'd find any apartment that was visited by someone often.
There is very little that remains a secret or unseen in a small community.
Perhaps Goncalo Amaral did not discover it before he left, or perhaps he is just saying that, for his or the investigation's own reasons.
Not everything found its way into the public files, a lot was considered worthy of being retained.
There aren't that many 'pink' buildings in PdL (unless Pinkie Pies had leaned against the walls) and from where did GA get the idea that the building was pink? 

Ayniia wrote:

suzyjohnson wrote:

tigger wrote:Both the PJ's dogs (there were several sets of dogs) and the CSI dogs inspected large tracts of the beach and the rocks. Nada.
Way too risky to hide a body there.

 Yes they did and it possibly was too risky, Tigger.

However, I wonder how much of the events were down to chance, perhaps it was just chance that the body wasn't discovered earlier?
Perhaps it didn't matter too much if the body was found within the first few days? They could claim an abductor was responsible for a head wound for example.

Perhaps her body was moved after two weeks to provide a private funeral? (After all, if her body had been found, the police would have released it to the family for burial eventually) 

But, actually, with what has been said about hospital procedures etc in this thread, I am starting to think perhaps there was a fridge / freezer after all

There's some things that could not be pinned on the abductor, for example: old abuse marks,  some drug in her system that's not available in Portugal or even a prescription needing drug or marks of a resuscitation attempt that could only have been done by someone with medical knowledge. This being said I have to point that I believe the plan was for the body to be discovered but that changed ( maybe because the money would stop coming in if that happened ).All IMHO.

I suppose a current abuse mark and time of death could be pinned on the abductor after 48 hours but the money was rolling in then and they seemed to be enjoying the limelight, maybe they went off plan?

As you say historic abuse marks could never be explained away

The more I read the old articles from the early days I am thinking 3rd May with a hastily prepared plan as it has more holes than a sieve but they have somehow managed to get away with it. IMO if they had longer to prepare they would have implemented it better

finch wrote:Didn't Amaral say in his book that there was an apartment in PDL where the McCanns went regularly. He believed it to be a pink building, but he never discovered where it was.

I did an unsuccessful search for that statement but I think it's fair to say that if the PJ knew about those trips to an apartment, they also knew which apartment was...

sally66 wrote:

Ayniia wrote:

suzyjohnson wrote:

tigger wrote:Both the PJ's dogs (there were several sets of dogs) and the CSI dogs inspected large tracts of the beach and the rocks. Nada.
Way too risky to hide a body there.

 Yes they did and it possibly was too risky, Tigger.

However, I wonder how much of the events were down to chance, perhaps it was just chance that the body wasn't discovered earlier?
Perhaps it didn't matter too much if the body was found within the first few days? They could claim an abductor was responsible for a head wound for example.

Perhaps her body was moved after two weeks to provide a private funeral? (After all, if her body had been found, the police would have released it to the family for burial eventually) 

But, actually, with what has been said about hospital procedures etc in this thread, I am starting to think perhaps there was a fridge / freezer after all

There's some things that could not be pinned on the abductor, for example: old abuse marks,  some drug in her system that's not available in Portugal or even a prescription needing drug or marks of a resuscitation attempt that could only have been done by someone with medical knowledge. This being said I have to point that I believe the plan was for the body to be discovered but that changed ( maybe because the money would stop coming in if that happened ).All IMHO.

I suppose a current abuse mark and time of death could be pinned on the abductor after 48 hours but the money was rolling in then and they seemed to be enjoying the limelight, maybe they went off plan?

As you say historic abuse marks could never be explained away

The more I read the old articles from the early days I am thinking 3rd May with a hastily prepared plan as it has more holes than a sieve but they have somehow managed to get away with it.  IMO if they had longer to prepare they would have implemented it better

I agree it all looks botched, therefore 'hurried', therefore, we assume that an accident must have happened that evening.
But we are trying to 'justify' the 3rd.
Is the botch up down to 'bad acting' skills ? A 'real' situation is not possible to simulate if it's representation is based on an inherent knowledge of deceit.
Let's remember that the apartment had been cleaned to such an extent that 'a week's worth of everyday, normal forensic residues' was eliminated. No children's sticky hand prints, no food spills, etc.
Blood, found removed, except for in the most unreachable places, like under floor tiles, had been damaged by a deliberate bleaching or similar effect to conceal its former presence.
Then there are the lies and the deliberate efforts, right from the very start, to set the scene of an 'abduction'.
The lies about the jemmied windows, but most importantly, Kate's most 'unrealistic' scream, 'They have taken her'.
Who is 'they', who is 'her', why 'taken' ?
We all know that even in shock, a more realistic cry would go out, 'I can't find Maddie, she's missing, she's not in the apartment'.
Nerves can make you fluff your lines, if you're a poor actor (and Kate is certainly that) or the 'abduction' was to be the promoted, right from the get go as the only possible solution to Maddie not being able to be presented in public.
I think something happened well earlier in the holiday.
The only thing that counteracts the many 'signals' of an earlier ?accident? is Goncalo Amaral's statement that Maddie was definitely seen at 5.30 on 3rd May 2007.
Without that, we would be finding the many other strange occurrences on previous dates to be part of the picture.
I think (AIMO) K and G were more prepared than we think, dating back at least a few days, if not having planned something a long while back.
The Tapas's very close allies, Jane and Oldfield and their demonstrated lying, may have only been involved in the later part of the plot, but possibly without having been given too much notice. Payne and / or wife, who knows if an accident occurred.....?
I do not think for one minute that Gerry would carry a 'dead Maddie' through the streets, at the risk of being seen by anyone from a balcony, a window, a doorway, a pedestrian, a passing car, even a policeman on the beat etc. He may well have carried a 'substitute' to aid the purported theory of abduction. Also his clothes didn't alert the dogs.
Let us consider: Buggies were available at the club.
Jez Wilkins was able to walk around for an hour at least with his child in a buggy, and any buggy would not have looked in the slightest out of place in a child friendly holiday place.
Then there's the sports bag, big enough to hide a ...whoops...tennis racket in. That too would not have looked out of place if anyone, on any night before the 3rd was seen walking around with it.
Then there is the fact that Kate and Gerry apparently knew no-one local, yet funnily enough, out of the shadows comes a man who can get the church key for them (a quiet ?un-bugged? place to sit), looks after their car whilst a private forensic test is done (apparently, but where's the proof, find nothing), phones appear from other local friends, as if to ask, WHY would you need extra phones, when you already have some, albeit with the parents deleting many messages rather than searching for their 'abducted' daughter.
I would ask myself, if this man from the shadows had a house nearby, big enough to store the K and G hire car, would he also have a 'freezer' in his garage or know someone else who did.
That strange blog entry from Gerry, about taking a fridge to the tip. Could it have been code for 'get something sorted'....and was removed once the message would have been picked up.
If they got spare phones from a 'friend that they didn't know they had', till the phones arrived, someone might have thought their own phones were being 'watched' so maybe 'coded' messages are not too far-fetched.
As I say, if if weren't solely for the fact that we trust in Goncalo Amaral saying Maddie had been seen on May 3rd, nothing else would need to be 'shoe-horned' into fitting a scenario that does not seem to fit.
But we do have 'Bad' acting, a deliberate 'designed phrase' to set the planned scene and cover-up to indicate 'abduction only':
Apart from, for some reason, Amaral's reference to 3rd May, (perhaps it was either deliberately misleading, or later maybe proven to be 'not of Maddie') we could envisage an earlier demise, with 'ham acting' from thick and arrogant brits in what they quite clearly portrayed (and had their relatives act along with, phatfil in particular) as a holiday place full of 'foreigners' who couldn't even speak enough English to do a proper police job of handling forensics and investigation, a pile of local clowns who took lunch hours (as it actually happens to be the ancient, respected Portuguese tradition) that don't consist of a dried up, sliced white, synthetic take-away sandwich on the hoof, a la English office worker.
Rant over: Apart from GA's ref, to Maddie being seen on 3rd, an earlier demise is more than fitting to actors who have shown themselves to be more than calculating in their handling of their daughter's disappearance
(the coloboma good marketing ploy etc.)
AIMO, because nothing would make me happier than if Maddie were to be found safe and sound but the dogs don't lie and there's too much that is suspect and inconsistent. 

What a great post, bobbin.

 The anomalies in the crèche sheets began on 29th April, so I agree that we need to consider a demise before 3rd. 2nd at latest imo and maybe earlier.

The memory of the tale of Matt in the water and Russell heroically manning the sail to save him and the McCann's sitting on the rocks looking out to the sea will always be with me.

It's still on my mind that the original plan was to stem from the assembly at the beach that evening but something went horribly wrong.

Ayniia wrote:

finch wrote:Didn't Amaral say in his book that there was an apartment in PDL where the McCanns went regularly. He believed it to be a pink building, but he never discovered where it was.

I did an unsuccessful search for that statement but I think it's fair to say that if the PJ knew about those trips to an apartment, they also knew which apartment was...

 Ayniia and Bobbin, 

Unless the PJ received a vague anonymous call saying that they had been seen going to a pink building? Maybe from someone a few months after they returned home?

suzyjohnson wrote:

Ayniia wrote:

finch wrote:Didn't Amaral say in his book that there was an apartment in PDL where the McCanns went regularly. He believed it to be a pink building, but he never discovered where it was.

I did an unsuccessful search for that statement but I think it's fair to say that if the PJ knew about those trips to an apartment, they also knew which apartment was...

 Ayniia and Bobbin, 

Unless the PJ received a vague anonymous call saying that they had been seen going to a pink building? Maybe from someone a few months after they returned home?

I have read about that building only this morning it was on the McCannFiles, here you are, a little way down and point number 5. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thank you very much Nina. So yes they knew which apartment block it was.
" 5. With regard to the possible sighting of arguido Gerry McCann next to a pink coloured block of apartments at a site opposite the Luz cemetery, we can inform you that this an establishment called "St James Portuguesa Lda"."

Does anyone know where on 25th of april street Serge Malinka(The man whose car was torched and the word "talk" written on the pavement) lived? as that was the location of the Smith sighting.

Also (im new to this) do we know the date of the fridge blog post?..and when was Geraghtys break in?

Wonder if they will look for the fridge that Gerry supposedly dumped himself, that seems to be strange that there is no mention of it but I distinctly remember reading about it

alfie02 wrote:Wonder if they will look for the fridge that Gerry supposedly dumped himself, that seems to be strange that there is no mention of it but I distinctly remember reading about it

I read GM's blogs and remember this too.

Sadly, that lead - along with a number of others - will have gone cold. Pun intended!

alfie02 merged your thread with this one.

It seems the fridge claim came from the Portuguese police via the Sun

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The full article is here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The only other reference to a fridge that I can find is in DPs rogatory where he says "Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Neither "fridge" nor "refrigerator" appear in Gerry's blogs [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] so I suspect Gerry disposing of a fridge is a forum myth