The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

Please log in, or register to view all the forums as some of them are 'members only', then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

When you register please do NOT use your email address for a username because everyone will be able to see it!


IVF Revisited

View previous topic View next topic Go down

IVF Revisited

Post by Verdi on 14.06.18 2:09

@Mark Willis wrote:When Maddie went missing, suddenly this living breathing corporeal child became an item, an it, a good marketing ploy, who was only "almost" perfect when born. The temperature drops to freezing when Kate speaks of "the child" and Gerry equates Maddie with overdrafts and good quality wrist bands. I am going out on a limb here but I have always thought that, although Kate is no doubt the Mother, that Gerry was not, irrespective of documents (easily altered) that say he is the Father. Given Uncle John's unseemly haste to jack his job in I thought he might be the Father by er...proxy. (All donations gratefully received!).
Then I thought that the twins really were the love children of K and G and why Maddie appeared not to be as loved as they appear to be. Stranger things happen at sea.

So who was infertile - was it he or was it she?

Simple answer to that simple question is - we just don't know.  Logical assumption from recorded notes dictates it was Kate McCann who couldn't reproduce, why else would Gerald's 'donation' be accepted during the IVF process?  Sporty athletic alpha-male Gerald couldn't possibly be at fault - or could he?

Madeleine was born following a  rigorous regime of IVF treatment undertaken by consultant specialists in the UK.  Husband Gerald was seconded for one year to Amsterdam in January 2004, when Madeleine was but seven months old. on a research project, during which time the couple embarked on another course of IVF to enlarge their family.  Kate McCann responded to the treatment with little problem, so in that short sojourn in Amsterdam, the McCann couple soon became a family of five as Kate McCann gave birth to twins.  Unlike the grueling  procedure experienced in the UK.
....................

As special as Madeleine was to us, and as fortunate as we felt to have her, both Gerry and I were keen to expand our family. Given our fertility problems, this was going to mean another attempt at IVF. We had no way of knowing if it was likely to work again and, even if it did, how long it might take. As a first step, in the spring I went along to see a GP. Not being Dutch citizens, we weren’t sure if we would be entitled to any treatment at all, so we were surprised and delighted when, just a month later, we had an appointment with a specialist and within only six more weeks we found ourselves starting another cycle of IVF in Amsterdam.

For the most part, everything was far easier psychologically this time round. Much as I wanted another baby, Madeleine had lifted me from the despair of childlessness, thank God, and I was now able to approach the IVF a little more philosophically. If it succeeded, brilliant; if it didn’t, then we only needed to look at what we had already to be content. It was a weird period emotionally, though. I couldn’t help feeling a little guilty, as if we were somehow overlooking Madeleine, not focusing on her 100 per cent, in our haste to move on to ‘the next one’. I loved her so much but I also knew that a little brother or sister would enhance her life, too.

The treatment cycle did the trick and I was pregnant again. We were overjoyed. This time, however, the scan revealed two little beating hearts. Twins. Wow!


madeleine by KATE MCCANN

[excerpt for study only]
..................

The immaculate conception?

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 10459
Reputation : 4097
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by Imari on 14.06.18 10:28

Now this is fascinating because there is a sadness about Madeleine which could be associated (as with any older child) with arrival of wonder baby/ies who seem to supplant them in the parents' affection. 
I looked for a long time at the age progression pix, and could not see Gerry in his young Gerry pic, but rather the uncle, John whose face matches much more closely. I tried flipping horizontally and it then seems even clearer that the pic given to the age progressors is one of John, of course I cannot be certain. However why would this be done? The only reasons could be that John is the 'real' father and the hunt for Madeleine is genuine (had she been known to be dead, surely they would not worry that it should look exact) or that Madeleine had been transplanted into another family and they didn't want her found. 
Can one imagine a scenario where Kate, desperate to conceive and not getting there, might ask Gerry's brother to step in, thus preserving the family DNA? Could this be why the only time Kate gets really, clearly upset is in an interview when Gerry says that Madeleine is the product of their union, a "mixture of us"? 
Maybe he didn't know. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNt4mV5csi4
avatar
Imari

Posts : 23
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2018-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by Verdi on 14.06.18 14:02

Hello Imari and  welcome to the forum, pleased to have you here.

DNA is an important factor here.

Initially, when the PJ investigation kicked-off, a clean reference sample of Madeleine's DNA was required by the investigation to eliminate evidence of who should and who shouldn't have been at the crime scene before the arrival of the police - routine policing.  The DNA reference sample wasn't required as some might think, to identify Madeleine as there was no corpse or remains of a corpse to compare.

Later in the investigation the case coordinator, Gonçalo Amaral, required a clean sample of Madeleine's DNA to confirm parentage - this is were it starts to look dodgy.

On 21st May 2007, Gerry McCann took lightening trip back to the UK, ostensibly to attend to matters of a personal nature and official business relating to the campaign.  On his return to Portugal he was weighted by pictures of Madeleine (to be dealt with on another thread) and other paraphenalia. including a pillowcase collected from the Rothley home and said to be used by Madeleine alone - therefore uncontaminated.  I'm not aware of a trail of evidence for this pillowcase, i.e. was it collected and packaged under the controlled conditions dictated by normal police protocol, or did Gerry McCann just stuff it in his holdall?

Whatever, the PJ investigation were satisfied, by forensic examination of the pillowcase, that Gerry and Kate McCann were the biological parents of Madeleine McCann.  The DNA sample was also compared to twin Amelie, so no apparent confusion there.  The journey of the pillowcase and the reason for it's appearance has always intrigued me - I choose not to get too involved with maters of forensic analysis, it not being a subject I'm qualified to discuss.  It would appear to be the primary reason for Gerry McCann's visit to the UK, in addition to collecting excess baggage in the form of a media monitoring director - but that's yet another story.

This is a point that  has been discussed extensively over the years and will no doubt continue to be, all the time there are pseudo experts out there who try to deflect from the core evidence.  I've yet to be convinced that the mysterious pillowcase, the item that seems to be the overriding factor to ensure innocence, was so innocent.
...................

Date: 28.08.2007

Letter to Dr. Gonçalo Amaral from the PT Genetic & Biological Forensic Service

I attach a response to your questions.

Warmest compliments,
Director of the Genetic & Biological Forensic Service,
Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira


RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS

- None of the samples received by this institute were designated as relating to the missing child, so an answer to your question cannot be provided.

- Samples were investigated - hairs and cloth, and DNA profiles were obtained in only four cases and when compared with the DNA of Gerald and Kate McCann it was found that they cannot be related to the child.

- The traces were then studied for mitochondrial DNA as were all the references with results in accordance with our conclusions in the report dated July 9, 2007 - Proc 2007/000226/LX-BC.

- Regarding your request no. 5, determine if the 'profile' obtained by the British laboratory may pertain to a child of the McCann couple.

- We carried out a profile comparison obtained from the autosomal STRs of Kate McCann and Gerald McCann and of the profile sent us.

- The probability of the McCann couple being the biological parents of the female individual in that test is 99,9828 %.

Lisbon, 20th August, 2007

The Director of the Genetic & Biological Forensic Service

Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira



http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 10459
Reputation : 4097
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by Imari on 19.06.18 6:18

Thank you, Verdi
avatar
Imari

Posts : 23
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2018-06-14

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by Verdi on 19.06.18 11:53

Church positions on fertility treatment

IVF and AI [AI = Artificial Insemination]

Roman Catholic Church

IVF and AI - acceptable, only if:

   NO “spare embryos” are created.
   No 3rd parties are used.
   They do not replace sex within a marriage.

AI - acceptable, only if the husband’s sperm is used.

AID - not acceptable. AI using a donor is wrong! It brings a 3rd party (another man) into the marriage.

   In an address to Catholic doctors, Pope Pius XII condemned AID because a third person becoming involved in a marriage is like "mechanical adultery": the donor fathers a child (with his sperm) yet he has no responsibility to the child; and a process that isolates the sacred act of creating life from the marriage union is a violation of the marriage union (which alone is the way to create life). However, if the marriage act is preserved, then various clinical techniques designed to help create new life are not to be condemned."

Adapted from Modern Catholic Dictionary

   "Any use whatsoever of any method that stops the natural power of sex to generate life is forbidden."

Pope Pius XI, 1930

Roman Catholic 1987 Report: “Respect for Human Life and the Dignity of Procreation”

This report gives guidelines for infertility treatment. Main points:

   Loving sexual relationships between husband and wife is the proper place for conceiving children.
   Children are a gift and a blessing from God.Although science makes some things possible, it does not make them right. Research must continue into the causes of infertility, but the morality of these should be carefully considered.
   All humans have the right to life from of conception. Infertility treatments must respect that.
....................

So sayeth the lord god almighty eyebrows !

I wonder where homosexuality and child sex abuse fits in with this sacred doctrine of holiness - in the closet?  Such hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Catholics?  To be or not to be, that is the question ....

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 10459
Reputation : 4097
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Biological father of MBM

Post by tiki on 19.06.18 13:33

I have always thought Madeleine has a strong resemblance to both GM and KM but Dr Amaral has clearly stated that the PJ located Ms biological father in England at the time of the 'abduction' or should I say the 'event'.  Dr Amaral says he was ruled out of the investigation and he was not named.  I often wonder if there is any other information out there regarding Madeleine's biological father.  GM strenuously denied it, not that his denial means anything given that he appears to be a pathological liar IMO. I guess we will never know but live in hope of some truth and justice for this child.
avatar
tiki

Posts : 13
Reputation : 7
Join date : 2018-05-13

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by polyenne on 19.06.18 13:54

IIRC, a now defunct Portuguese magazine (24 Horas ?) "outed" a gentleman from Birmingham (?) as being Madeleine's biological father though the magazine were then threatened with a libel action and withdrew.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of the above

polyenne

Posts : 963
Reputation : 561
Join date : 2017-03-31

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by Verdi on 19.06.18 16:08

@tiki wrote:I have always thought Madeleine has a strong resemblance to both GM and KM but Dr Amaral has clearly stated that the PJ located Ms biological father in England at the time of the 'abduction' or should I say the 'event'.  Dr Amaral says he was ruled out of the investigation and he was not named.  I often wonder if there is any other information out there regarding Madeleine's biological father.  GM strenuously denied it, not that his denial means anything given that he appears to be a pathological liar IMO. I guess we will never know but live in hope of some truth and justice for this child.

Up-page I have already provided the detail from the PJ files confirming the McCanns being the biological parents of Madeleine McCann with almost 100% certainty.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 10459
Reputation : 4097
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by Verdi on 20.06.18 1:54

@polyenne wrote:IIRC, a now defunct Portuguese magazine (24 Horas ?) "outed" a gentleman from Birmingham (?) as being Madeleine's biological father though the magazine were then threatened with a libel action and withdrew.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of the above

'I AM Madeleine's dad': Gerry McCann rejects claims sperm donor was used for IVF

By VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 16:49 12 October 2007

Gerry McCann has been forced to issue an extraordinary statement insisting that Madeleine is his natural daughter.

The heart consultant said he had acted to counter 'lies and absolute fabrication' in the Portuguese press.

According to 24 Horas, Madeleine, who was conceived using IVF, was the child of his wife, Kate, and an unnamed sperm donor.
The newspaper claimed that the four-yearold's parentage meant her DNA could not be confused with that of two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.

The supposed revelation would prove that bodily fluids found in the family's hire car had come from Madeleine and not from her brother or sister, the tabloid said.

Portuguese police are seeking evidence that the girl's body was transported in the Renault Scenic, which was hired 25 days after she disappeared.

The sperm donor story was dismissed as 'unwarranted, unsubstantiated and totally inaccurate speculation' by the family's spokesman Clarence Mitchell.

In a strongly worded statement agreed by the couple and their lawyers, he said: 'For the record Gerry McCann is the biological father of his daughter Madeleine.

"A newspaper report in the 24 Horas newspaper suggesting otherwise is nothing short of lies. It is indeed an absolute fabrication."

Mr Mitchell said the family's legal team was monitoring media coverage and would not hesitate to take action 'at the appropriate stage' in Portugal or Britain.

The newspaper - one of Portugal's most popular - claimed police there were certain Madeleine was not Mr McCann's child.

It claimed investigations in Britain had uncovered her biological father's identity.

The report caused 'complete horror and total distress' within the family, a friend said.

The McCanns were particularly upset that the latest claim came days after Portugal's most senior policeman vowed to clamp down on the constant smears and leaks from inside the Madeleine investigation.

Mr Mitchell said: "We have up to a year to sue and we will do. Gerry and Kate want to concentrate on the case involving Madeleine and don't want to do anything that may compromise that while they are official suspects.

"But they plan to sue 24 Horas and any other media outlets that print these claims as soon as the official suspect status is lifted."

Mr McCann's mother Eileen, 67, from Glasgow, said: 'To say Gerry is not Madeleine's natural father is utterly ridiculous.

"Madeleine is my natural granddaughter. Her eyes and nose are the same as mine.

"These allegations are totally unfounded. They are pure speculation and a load of nonsense. Whatever will the Portuguese papers make up next?"


Jill Renwick, a close friend of the family, described the report as "absolute rubbish". She said: "Gerry is Madeleine's biological father. I know for a fact there was no donor sperm.

"Whoever is coming out with these claims is really clutching at straws. It is corrupt."

The McCanns underwent IVF treatment near their Leicestershire home before Madeleine was conceived. They had further IVF treatment to conceive their twins while they were living in Amsterdam.

A friend said the 24 Horas report was published without any contact with the family.


The newspaper has run a series of articles this week which have all strongly denied by the McCanns.

Its co- editor, Luis Fontes, insisted he stood by the sperm donor story.

He said it was confirmed by the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham, which has carried out analysis on samples taken from the McCanns' apartment and hire car.

The FSS denied it had made any comment on the case.

Mr Fontes said he was not aware of any threat of legal action from the McCanns over the article and added: "It is absolutely true. Our sources are rock solid."

He added: "If they [the McCanns] think they can sue us, bring it on."

Friends also denied claims in another Portuguese newspaper, Diario de Noticias, which said Mrs McCann, a 39-year-old GP, flew into a fit of rage after she was made a suspect in the case.


She was said to have broken crockery, pictures and "anything she could get her hands on" in the couple's hired villa in Praia da Luz.

Madeleine went missing from the Algarve resort on May 3.

Meanwhile, Mr McCann, 39, said he was encouraged by comments from Portugal's most senior detective, Alipio Ribeiro, who said the couple were still suspects but that police would consider other theories.

Forensic test results in the case will be given to police next week, it emerged yesterday.

The McCanns have been warned they could be asked to return to Portugal for further questioning.

The results are expected to be handed over on Monday but there could be further delays because two Portuguese government ministries will see them before they are passed on to the police.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-487063/I-AM-Madeleines-dad-Gerry-McCann-rejects-claims-sperm-donor-used-IVF.html
....................

Clarence Mitchell was paid a considerable sum of money to control what was reported by the media - and he did it with great aplomb, this being a perfect example.

Why can't people see what's going on here?  Everything, that's everything, reported by the UK press was carefully controlled by Clarence Mitchell and the McCann brotherhood.  Negative press or positive press, it's all there for a reason.  On this particular occasion, I venture to suggest a serious attempt to discredit the Portuguese press, when the 'source' emanated from the UK in the first place.

Never trust the UK press - it's a one sided turf war.  They heavily rely on the fact that the readership are British, so will believe anything presented which is pro-British.

It works every time.

NB:  Vanessa Allen is Olive Oyl's deputy in chief.

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 10459
Reputation : 4097
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by BlueBag on 20.06.18 10:14

@Verdi wrote:
Never trust the UK press - it's a one sided turf war.  They heavily rely on the fact that the readership are British, so will believe anything presented which is pro-British.
Since the Iraq WMD "sexed up documents" incident the Establishment got their act together and there has been no free mainstream media since.

Labour/Conservatives... it doesn't matter.... they all work for the same establishment.

That is what the media monitoring unit was there for.

Never trust our mainstream media.

1984.
avatar
BlueBag

Posts : 4777
Reputation : 2478
Join date : 2014-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by Hobs on 21.06.18 3:22

Date: 28.08.2007

Letter to Dr. Gonçalo Amaral from the PT Genetic & Biological Forensic Service

I attach a response to your questions.

Warmest compliments,
Director of the Genetic & Biological Forensic Service,
Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira


RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS

- None of the samples received by this institute were designated as relating to the missing child, so an answer to your question cannot be provided.

- Samples were investigated - hairs and cloth, and DNA profiles were obtained in only four cases and when compared with the DNA of Gerald and Kate McCann it was found that they cannot be related to the child.

- The traces were then studied for mitochondrial DNA as were all the references with results in accordance with our conclusions in the report dated July 9, 2007 - Proc 2007/000226/LX-BC.

- Regarding your request no. 5, determine if the 'profile' obtained by the British laboratory may pertain to a child of the McCann couple.





Lisbon, 20th August, 2007

The Director of the Genetic & Biological Forensic Service

Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira



http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm



What were the questions asked?

- None of the samples received by this institute were designated as relating to the missing child, so an answer to your question cannot be provided.

of the samples provided, none were said to be from Maddie.

- Samples were investigated - hairs and cloth, and DNA profiles were obtained in only four cases and when compared with the DNA of Gerald and Kate McCann it was found that they cannot be related to the child.

So who did the samples relate to?
If it related to the children then kate and gerry were not the bio parents.
did this apply to all the children or only Maddie or the twins?


- Regarding your request no. 5, determine if the 'profile' obtained by the British laboratory may pertain to a child of the McCann couple.

[size=13]- We carried out a profile comparison obtained from the autosomal STRs of Kate McCann and Gerald McCann and of the profile sent us.

- The probability of the McCann couple being the biological parents of the female individual in that test is 99,9828 %.

Amelie or Maddie?
It doesn't tell us who the sample was from nor does it name either Amelie or Maddie.

As far as i am aware, no definitive untainted, unspoiled, intact sample of DNA proven to have come from Maddie has ever been provided.
The pillowcase from rothley has no chain of custody and we only have gerry's declaration it was Maddie's.
Why not samples from the clothing Maddie was known to have been wearing that day?
Why no toothbrush for each child?
Why not samples from the pillow case in apt 5a or bedding?
Why not from Maddie's footwear?

Why was there no DNA from Maddie in an apartment that should have been crawling with DNA from not only Maddie but the twins as well?
Why go all the way to rothley to get a sample, with apparantly no police escort with gerry as he got the sample from the house?

It seems the only sample provided came from a bedroom in a different country with no proof that it was actually Maddie's.

Was this because the apartment had been so cleaned up that what should have been there wasn't?
Was it to prevent conclusive proof that Maddie's blood and body fluids had been found in the hire car when by rights it would and should have been impossible?

15 out of 19 markers matched with 4 too degraded.
Note, it was not that they didn't match or that they were absent, they were present but at that period of time, too degraded to show they conclusively came from Maddie's corpse.
In Portugal it has to be a full 19/19 match be be accepted as evidence whereas in the UK 15/19 would have been considered proof and the mccanns would be now doing serious jail time.

In the 11 years that have passed, forensic science has advanced in leaps and bounds, and what could then not be identified as they were too degraded, could now be conclusively shown to have come from a specific person, in this case, Maddie.

How then would the mccanns explain away the presence of Maddie's DNA from body fluids in a hire car, hired several weeks after Maddie was allegedly abducted?
The only possible excuse is that the abductor killed Maddie and used the hire car to dispose of her remains and that the mccanns then unfortunately hired the self same car weeks later.

Even less plausible is that the mccanns were being set up by person(s) unknown and that said person(s) got fluid samples from Maddie's corpse and somehow placed it in the mccanns hire car in order to frame them for homicide, concealment of a corpse and filing a false police report.

This would be assuming that the sample was placed in the car after the mccanns had hired it.
How would it have been placed in situ?
Perhaps when they had the car trunk open every night?
Why then would the mccanns not report the bad smell in the car, a smell noticed by others and obviously prompting the need for the trunk to be left open?
Why would they come up with excuses for evidence found if they were innocent?

Questions still remain over the IVF.
Why did they not sue the paper that said that gerry was not the bio father?

I wonder if they have any samples remaining of the fluids in the hire car?
What about samples from the apartment?
What would happen if the cadaver dogs returned to the apartment today?
If luminol or the equivalent was not used in 2007, what would be revealed if they used it today?

[/size]

____________________
The little unremembered acts of kindness and love are the best parts of a person's life.
avatar
Hobs
Researcher/Analyst

Posts : 920
Reputation : 601
Join date : 2012-10-20
Age : 54
Location : uk

http://tania-cadogan.blogspot.co.uk/

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by willowthewisp on 21.06.18 14:38

Hi hobs,thanks for your excellent analysis on DNA,Amellie or Madeleine?

Kate and Gerry will No way now sue any reporter over the DNA evidence being destroyed by UK FSS Authorities after contaminating the original samples,just another one of those amazing coincidences involving Evidence that was provable!
avatar
willowthewisp

Posts : 2735
Reputation : 944
Join date : 2015-05-07

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by Imari on 27.06.18 17:25

There seems to be an RC priest who knows the couple in Rothley, but his interview is rather strange, and lots of meaningful expressions cross his face but are nor openly spoken of - in my opinion he doesn't believe their version.
My doubts about the deep RC faith are reinforced by their attitude and use of IVF for their conceptions. RC accepts this interference with God's will about the creation and destruction of life as long as no spare embryos are created. In the book Kate says they had 13 fertilised eggs so what happened to the ten spares? Does even God make an exception for the Mccanns? 
Confession, straight after the event in PdL was likely heard in PdL so the UK priest may not know much, but he is clearly trying to support people about whose story he has some doubts.
avatar
Imari

Posts : 23
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2018-06-14

Back to top Go down

The Rothley priest

Post by sar on 27.06.18 18:18

interesting reading


_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Topic merged. Mod

sar

Posts : 842
Reputation : 259
Join date : 2013-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: IVF Revisited

Post by Verdi on 27.06.18 21:41

@Imari wrote:There seems to be an RC priest who knows the couple in Rothley, but his interview is rather strange, and lots of meaningful expressions cross his face but are nor openly spoken of - in my opinion he doesn't believe their version.

Would you be so good as to provide a link, video or text, where this interview can be found?

Thanks thumbsup .

____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made" - Groucho Marx
avatar
Verdi
Moderator/Researcher

Posts : 10459
Reputation : 4097
Join date : 2015-02-02

Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum