Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

by Verdi 01.04.17 0:07

Phoebe wrote:I can't help feeling that the holiday was a disappointing flop from day one. Unseasonably lousy weather, freezing pools and having to buy/prepare breakfast (Millenium a hike away with toddlers) and lunch for 5 everyday. I believe there was tension between Kate and Gerry before they ever set off, as the burden of looking after 3 children under 4 had always fallen on Kate. When Kate mentioned her reservations about going and Gerry made his "not here to enjoy myself" comment I believe it was because she had laid it on the line that they were going on condition he started pulling his weight - which he didn't. Money seemed to be quite tight, they had a big mortgage and one real breadwinner. I think Kate snapped and hit Madeleine, leaving a clear mark that could not be explained away. Perhaps this caused her death, or maybe the fact that it was there meant they felt an accidental death would not be believed if the body was autopsied. David Payne's unsolicited emphasis on there being no problem between Kate and the kids and that they all looked so well cared for rings alarm bells for me.

I dunno. Portugal, the farthest south westerly point of Europe at the end of April beginning of May, they must have realised the weather wouldn't be too good - twas only spring.

I can't comment on the McCanns joint parenting arrangements because I don't know anything about their relationship or lifestyle before the 2007 holiday, other than press reports which leave a lot to be desired. If their story line is to be believed, I can't however see why their holiday should have been particularly stressful to either one of them, if they are to be believed, they left the kids at the daycare centre everyday, leaving them hours of adult time. The rest of the group seemed to manage their every day routine without too much stress. Breakfast and lunch should family time to be enjoyed and every moment savoured, with plenty of snapshots to treasure. The group had some communal luncheon arrangement and Dianne Webster was always on-tap to help with the food etc. - there doesn't appear to be any reason why the McCanns couldn't join the rest of the gang.

The problem from the beginning has been the lack of reliable independent witnesses to support the Tapas groups meanderous version of events, even the PJ were initially stymied by their false/contradictory/confusing formal and informal interviews and witness statements. Personally, I don't believe David Payne ever made a visit to apartment 5a late afternoon/early evening (depending on which version you read), I think it was fabricated to place a live healthy Madeleine in-situ late Thursday 3rd May.

Put all that together with a number of other pointers discussed on CMoMM in the past and it becomes more and more evident that Madeleine McCann met with her fate much earlier in the week. Everything else is just window dressing.

NB: Hope this makes sense. My laptop deleted a whole chunk of text - I've tried to salvage what was left, filling in the gaps.

by Samcaddick 01.04.17 0:42

Holidays with young children can be at times very stressful, i know, i have 5!, All grown up now!
It only takes one to throw a tantrum, say whilst having dinner, depending on how they are controlled at home. ie, a stern talking to, shouting at them, or even smacking!!,
You most likely wouldn't shout, not in a crowded restraunt/dining area, and most definitely you wouldn't smack a child, so the stress builds.

I do agree regards David Payne, he never checked on apartment 5a may,3rd.

by Phoebe 01.04.17 10:21

I agree Payne never made that visit, his claim was meant to show Madeleine was alive and well when she was far from it. Admittedly, I'm being influenced by my own memories of the stress of having 3 very young kids on holiday. My kids would have been like wasps from tiredness if they had followed the McCann regime! They were up and at it by 7.30 am, then spent all day on the go without a nap, even though the twins were only 2 since the previous Feb. Walked to creche for morning session, busy morning playing, walked back for lunch, off again to creche after lunch, more playing, walked to tapas for tea, back to apartment, bathed, back out to playground for more activity before bed. My kids were still going down for naps at that age and were enough to do my head in when they were over-tired and cranky. The other Tapas 7 also mention their kids sleeping or resting in the afternoons One of mine was hyper, and I used to say that I needed a holiday to get over the holiday!

by sandancer 01.04.17 17:23

A couple go on holiday with their 3 under 4s , friends and their children .
Every day children go to Crèche , morning and afternoon . So parents can have " me time "

Apart from one alleged trip to the beach in the rain , 5 ice creams and a pair of sunglasses !

Not a word of tears , paddy tantrums No don't want to , don't like it , squabbling over toys the usual things kids do . ( Remember that girl could throw a tantrum !)

Then to top it off the " angelic " threesome every night go straight to bed and to sleep so all the " into each other " adults can spend the evening running backwards and forwards to " check whilst their dinner gets cold .

So good are these kids that mum can have a shower while leaving them with biscuits and books !

Did Supernanny Jo Frost accompany them ?

All this sounds like another " version of the truth "

No matter how well behaved your children are they have their moments , especially when tired and grumpy , that would be remembered when going through the weeks events .
Oh yes , that was the day x threw a right paddy about ( insert reason ) took ages to settle down .
Payne's visit never happened , the angels in white , not in any trouble all created to back up " responsible , respectable , good parents " and Madeleine still alive .

Fantastic fiction . Imho of course .

by **Jill Havern** 01.04.17 17:32

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big grin

Sandancer, that reminded me of something my daughter put on her facebewk page the other day.

I don't believe her though, cos whenever I see my granddaughters they're always so well behaved!

by Nina 01.04.17 18:14

sandancer wrote:A couple go on holiday with their 3 under 4s , friends and their children .
Every day children go to Crèche , morning and afternoon . So parents can have " me time "

Apart from one alleged trip to the beach in the rain , 5 ice creams and a pair of sunglasses !

Not a word of tears , paddy tantrums No don't want to , don't like it , squabbling over toys the usual things kids do . ( Remember that girl could throw a tantrum !)

Then to top it off the " angelic " threesome every night go straight to bed and to sleep so all the " into each other " adults can spend the evening running backwards and forwards to " check whilst their dinner gets cold .

So good are these kids that mum can have a shower while leaving them with biscuits and books !

Did Supernanny Jo Frost accompany them ?

All this sounds like another " version of the truth "

No matter how well behaved your children are they have their moments , especially when tired and grumpy , that would be remembered when going through the weeks events .
Oh yes , that was the day x threw a right paddy about ( insert reason ) took ages to settle down .
Payne's visit never happened , the angels in white , not in any trouble all created to back up " responsible , respectable , good parents " and Madeleine still alive .

Fantastic fiction . Imho of course .

Jane Tanner mentions a tantrum and meltdown.................

4078 “And from the comments amongst the group, how were the other children doing?”
Reply “Yeah fine, yeah they were, they were tired. I think the Wednesday night, there was one night when Ella had a complete meltdown and sort of, she’s not sort of a tantrumy child but she was so tired she just sort of crashed and screamed during bath time. I think that might have been, I’m not sure if that was the Wednesday, it could have been the Wednesday but she just had a complete, you know how the kids do when they’re tired, complete meltdown and there’s screaming and they’re so tired it was quite hard to settle her but then she just, she just crashed, but there was, I think that was the Wednesday night that she, I mean by, when we were playing in the play area she sort of lay on the floor and started, which she doesn’t do at all so we knew she was, we knew she was shattered at that point. But I think that, I think that was the Wednesday.”

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by sandancer 01.04.17 18:24

Get'emGonçalo wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Sandancer, that reminded me of something my daughter put on her facebewk page the other day.

I don't believe her though, cos whenever I see my granddaughters they're always so well behaved!

Of course they're well behaved , children know which side their bread is buttered nod

I'm " gran " to two dogs as my daughter has stated for years she won't have any cos she doesn't like children and can't see the point in having any when she's still got so much to do with her life .

So it's not ice creams and sweets, it's dog treats , soggy tennis balls and mucky paws

One thing I am certain of , they're not unreliable and they don't lie ! lol4

by sandancer 01.04.17 20:00

Nina wrote:
sandancer wrote:A couple go on holiday with their 3 under 4s , friends and their children .
Every day children go to Crèche , morning and afternoon . So parents can have " me time "

Apart from one alleged trip to the beach in the rain , 5 ice creams and a pair of sunglasses !

Not a word of tears , paddy tantrums No don't want to , don't like it , squabbling over toys the usual things kids do . ( Remember that girl could throw a tantrum !)

Then to top it off the " angelic " threesome every night go straight to bed and to sleep so all the " into each other " adults can spend the evening running backwards and forwards to " check whilst their dinner gets cold .

So good are these kids that mum can have a shower while leaving them with biscuits and books !

Did Supernanny Jo Frost accompany them ?

All this sounds like another " version of the truth "

No matter how well behaved your children are they have their moments , especially when tired and grumpy , that would be remembered when going through the weeks events .
Oh yes , that was the day x threw a right paddy about ( insert reason ) took ages to settle down .
Payne's visit never happened , the angels in white , not in any trouble all created to back up " responsible , respectable , good parents " and Madeleine still alive .

Fantastic fiction . Imho of course .
Jane Tanner mentions a tantrum and meltdown.................

4078 “And from the comments amongst the group, how were the other children doing?”
Reply “Yeah fine, yeah they were, they were tired. I think the Wednesday night, there was one night when Ella had a complete meltdown and sort of, she’s not sort of a tantrumy child but she was so tired she just sort of crashed and screamed during bath time. I think that might have been, I’m not sure if that was the Wednesday, it could have been the Wednesday but she just had a complete, you know how the kids do when they’re tired, complete meltdown and there’s screaming and they’re so tired it was quite hard to settle her but then she just, she just crashed, but there was, I think that was the Wednesday night that she, I mean by, when we were playing in the play area she sort of lay on the floor and started, which she doesn’t do at all so we knew she was, we knew she was shattered at that point. But I think that, I think that was the Wednesday.”

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Thanks Nina , I'd forgotten about that though by the time I've read a couple of those rogatories my brain has had a meltdown spin

.

Interesting to see she " crashed and screamed during bath time "

The McCanns wondered following Maddie's " Why didn't you come when we were crying " comment
Was it when they were being bathed ?

Picked up from Jane Tanner ?

by Lord Sleuth 28.04.17 20:58

I had another theory come to me today which at the moment I dont know how much credence to give to it. (and all in my own view of course)
For now I am considering it my B theory. I still prefer my A theory, but the more I think about it the more interesting it becomes.
Now I know there are far more capable brains and minds on here than me and if I have thought of something the chances others have got there before me.
So I apologise in advance if it has already been discussed on here. The forum is too vast for me to plough through it all. And I can think of one diligent researcher on here who must have thought of it also.
Anyway, I guess people think from my previous posts that I am a conspiracy theorist.
I suppose I am to an extent and when it comes to politics and power I usually take the devious explantion over the simple one, which I think I have made clear before.
So, with my "previous" in mind, what if...
It has been alleged that the UK security services have been watching out and doing undercover work in Portugal regarding child trafficking and pedeo rings etc. And the PJ must have been too, either independently or jointly.
Well, supposing the Mccanns and the rest of the party were knowingly and officially being used as bait in an undercover sting to flush out either a bigwig or a group as a whole and something went wrong?
It would explain a lot just as my A theory does especially the cover up and the National Security implications.
As I say I need to flush out the details a bit more yet, but I thought I would share it with you.
It only came to me about an hour ago while walking the dog through a field. But any thoughts?

by TMH 29.04.17 10:48

Lord Sleuth wrote:I had another theory come to me today which at the moment I dont know how much credence to give to it. (and all in my own view of course)
For now I am considering it my B theory. I still prefer my A theory, but the more I think about it the more interesting it becomes.
Now I know there are far more capable brains and minds on here than me and if I have thought of something the chances others have got there before me.
So I apologise in advance if it has already been discussed on here. The forum is too vast for me to plough through it all. And I can think of one diligent researcher on here who must have thought of it also.
Anyway, I guess people think from my previous posts that I am a conspiracy theorist.
I suppose I am to an extent and when it comes to politics and power I usually take the devious explantion over the simple one, which I think I have made clear before.
So, with my "previous" in mind, what if...
It has been alleged that the UK security services have been watching out and doing undercover work in Portugal regarding child trafficking and pedeo rings etc. And the PJ must have been too, either independently or jointly.
Well, supposing the Mccanns and the rest of the party were knowingly and officially being used as bait in an undercover sting to flush out either a bigwig or a group as a whole and something went wrong?
It would explain a lot just as my A theory does especially the cover up and the National Security implications.
As I say I need to flush out the details a bit more yet, but I thought I would share it with you.
It only came to me about an hour ago while walking the dog through a field. But any thoughts?

If this was the case, it still doesn't make the Mc's innocent if they were knowingly being used as bait. No decent parent would agree to this scenario in my opinion.

by Lord Sleuth 29.04.17 13:59

Security services under cover projects are a very dirty business and I think someone on here said recently that if those in the know opened up and told us all what they knew, we would all nearly die of shock.
The intention too, might not to have been to flush anyone out, but merely to obtain blackmail material, especially so if the target or targets came from another country.
As for the parents being innocent (if my scenario has any truth in it), it would be innocent in a way.
How innocent is a matter of opinion.

by plebgate 29.04.17 14:42

Eh? Using Maddie to get blackmail material to use against someone from another country but something went wrong?

Don't understand what your trying to get at but if security services were involved why would they allow the dogs to be brought in?

by Lord Sleuth 29.04.17 14:53

The cover up cant look too obvious.
I dont think (except in the early stages for reasons stated above)) the dogs evidence is being paid too much attention to .
Not officially anyway.
And wasnt Grime allegedly met by an MI5 man and given a quiet whisper in his ear?

by plebgate 29.04.17 15:17

No completely lost - outa this one.

by kaz 29.04.17 17:46

plebgate wrote:Eh? Using Maddie to get blackmail material to use against someone from another country but something went wrong?

Don't understand what your trying to get at but if security services were involved why would they allow the dogs to be brought in?

This is something I too have pondered on. It seems obvious to me that the Secret Services were/ are involved so why was Amaral actively encouraged to use the dogs? Blood and cadaver odour detecting dogs at that ! Brought all the way from Britain with their handler , only to have the findings ignored by the Met. What was the reason?

by Lord Sleuth 29.04.17 20:32

At the risk of p***ing everyone off, I have another speculative theory. (last one I promise)
My C theory is a mixture of A and B.
In a nutshell the activities outlined in A are occurring but the only official aspect is MI6 secretly monitoring and filming for blackmail purposes.
Just in case we ever fallout with friends a little compromising video in the bank might come in handy.
Sounds appalling I know and it is,( if true of course) but we live in a very dirty world.

by dartinghero 29.04.17 22:18

Lord Sleuth wrote:At the risk of p***ing everyone off, I have another speculative theory. (last one I promise)
My C theory is a mixture of A and B.
In a nutshell the activities outlined in A are occurring but the only official aspect is MI6 secretly monitoring and filming for blackmail purposes.
Just in case we ever fallout with friends a little compromising video in the bank might come in handy.
Sounds appalling I know and it is,( if true of course) but we live in a very dirty world.

IIRC (too many night shifts lately) Richard D Hall talks about a situation like this in his latest film - the Elm Guest House maybe? Sorry, fuzzy head....

by Pinokkio 22.05.17 2:33

I have 2 small questions... Does some one know why the young lady was fired that cleaned the rooms in praia de Luz and what her name is?

by plebgate 22.05.17 6:51

kaz wrote:
plebgate wrote:Eh? Using Maddie to get blackmail material to use against someone from another country but something went wrong?

Don't understand what your trying to get at but if security services were involved why would they allow the dogs to be brought in?

This is something I too have pondered on. It seems obvious to me that the Secret Services were/ are involved so why was Amaral actively encouraged to use the dogs? Blood and cadaver odour detecting dogs at that ! Brought all the way from Britain with their handler , only to have the findings ignored by the Met. What was the reason?

Maybe they didn't have a choice? I did post on a different thread that having recently seen H-d-H's recent" Another 48 questions" video it reminded me that the British police informed the PJ of the existence of the two dogs. Once alerted it would have been nigh on impossible to stop them being brought in imo.

by dartinghero 22.05.17 16:51

plebgate wrote:
kaz wrote:
plebgate wrote:Eh? Using Maddie to get blackmail material to use against someone from another country but something went wrong?

Don't understand what your trying to get at but if security services were involved why would they allow the dogs to be brought in?

This is something I too have pondered on. It seems obvious to me that the Secret Services were/ are involved so why was Amaral actively encouraged to use the dogs? Blood and cadaver odour detecting dogs at that ! Brought all the way from Britain with their handler , only to have the findings ignored by the Met. What was the reason?
Maybe they didn't have a choice? I did post on a different thread that having recently seen H-d-H's recent" Another 48 questions" video it reminded me that the British police informed the PJ of the existence of the two dogs. Once alerted it would have been nigh on impossible to stop them being brought in imo.

Perhaps the key to this is knowing which "British police" told the PJ about the dogs? If the idea for the dogs came from the PJ, it would have been almost impossible for British Police not to comply and send the dogs in. The Met ignored the findings so probably wasn't them that suggested the use of the dogs. Did the request definitely come from UK not Portugal?

by Verdi 22.05.17 17:02

dartinghero wrote:Perhaps the key to this is knowing which "British police" told the PJ about the dogs? If the idea for the dogs came from the PJ, it would have been almost impossible for British Police not to comply and send the dogs in. The Met ignored the findings so probably wasn't them that suggested the use of the dogs. Did the request definitely come from UK not Portugal?

It was on the recommendation of Mark Harrison MBE, National Search Advisor - Homicide, missing persons and mass fatality disasters [snipped from his comprehensive report]..

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.

Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.

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by Brian_L 22.05.17 17:17

I can't help thinking the photo fits released by the British police were from someone who knows more than we do . Deliberately released to point the way to the answer .

by willowthewisp 22.05.17 17:27

Time to ask,"The Wheel Tapas 7/9" shunters club,Care to Break Your "Pact of silence"?
Want to play "Real runaround,oh you have done that for the past Ten Years,are you in a very,"Special Brotherhood"?

by dartinghero 22.05.17 17:41

Verdi wrote:
dartinghero wrote:Perhaps the key to this is knowing which "British police" told the PJ about the dogs? If the idea for the dogs came from the PJ, it would have been almost impossible for British Police not to comply and send the dogs in. The Met ignored the findings so probably wasn't them that suggested the use of the dogs. Did the request definitely come from UK not Portugal?
It was on the recommendation of Mark Harrison MBE, National Search Advisor - Homicide, missing persons and mass fatality disasters [snipped from his comprehensive report]..

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.

Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]