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25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

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25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by Get'emGonçalo on 28.07.15 16:52

25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up


1. Despite Cat’s claims, why was there no ID bracelets photographed on any child before the 3rd?
2. Despite Cat’s claims, why was AM & PM on one sheet instead of two seperate ones?
3. Charlotte Pennington is missing from the list of crèche staff given to the PJ by Donna Hall of Mark Warner on the 4th.
4. Stacey Portz claimed that Gerry signed the twins in PM on the 3rd, but the crèche sheet says K McCann did.
5. Stacey Portz claimed that Kate collected the twins AM on the 3rd, but Fiona said Gerry did.
6. Robert Naylor’s signatories are erratic and noticeably different every day.
7. Robert Naylor enters the wrong room number every day.
8. Russell O’Brien enters Emma instead of Ella for his daughter on the 1st.
9. Russell O’Brien enters the wrong room number 5B, on the 30th.
10. Russell O’Brien enters 5B again and changes it to 5D, twice on the 2nd.
11. Russell O’Brien enters R O’Brien, instead of his daughter’s name PM on the 30th.
12. On enlarging the McCann & Naylor signatures, there are several identical writing styles starting from the 29th.
13. Catriona Baker for some reason starts entering ‘Cat nanny’ on the crèche sheets from the 1st.
14. Madeleine is signed in at 15.15 and out again at 15.30 by K McCann on the 30th.
15. Kate’s signatures in the Jellyfish on the same day have straight 2’s AM & curly 2’s PM, suggesting two different people.
16. Kate enters KM Healey instead of K McCann, for the first and only time on the 2nd.
17. Kate does not attend the Lobsters group at all on the 1st.
18. PJ final report does not mention Shinead Vine, the twins carer almost every day, only Stacey Portz.
19. Catriona Baker makes a retraction from an earlier statement concerning Madeleine offering more attention to boys.
20. That particular Catriona Baker statement has been withheld by the PJ.
21. No member of staff can remember seeing Madeleine on the 28th, arrival day.
22. Catriona Baker claims the first time she met the McCann’s was on the 29th.
23. Yet Catriona Baker claimed she had Madeleine’s ID bracelet with allergy information ready, for when she first arrived.
24. PJ withholds twins crèche sheet, for AM on the 29th.
25. PJ withholds twins crèche sheet, for AM on the 3rd.


On the 18th April 2008, Cat was interviewed by Leicestershire Police over 3 separate sessions on the same day, in relation to her Rogatory Interview.

10.09 to 10.54 = 45 mins

11.57 to 12.12 = 15 mins

13.35 to 13.45 = 10 mins

It would appear that after the first session and during the second, Cat needed to make a retraction;

“Between 11h57 and 12h12 of the same day I was again interviewed on DVD by DC GIERC. During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police. There are two facts that I would like to clarify: "dining out service" which is mentioned is available for the adults, being that the children would be left under the care of a childcare worker during dinner. My original deposition also mentioned that Madeleine offered more attention to the boys in the club. I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter. I confirm that the deposition in this second DVD is truthful and in accord with my knowledge and that it will be registered”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm

The only other statement in the files available for Cat is dated the 6th May 2007 and does NOT include any mention of Madeleine and boys. Which can only mean one thing, Cat must have made another statement sometime after the 6th May 2007 and it is being witheld by the PJ.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA.htm

Bearing in mind that a lot of the nannies were almost immediately relocated to other countries, I wonder when and how this 'other' "deposition" came about?

The reason I feel that this retraction is very important, is because the child suspected of replacing Madeleine in creche that week, has a brother.

With thanks to 'Stella'
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by aquila on 28.07.15 18:30

The creche setup was never right imo. There are so many things Stella pointed out which even if considered on a 'stand-alone' basis simply aren't credible...the creche wristbands being one of them - I'm only singling out one point in a very long list.

To my knowledge there has never been a declaration from anyone using the OC creche facilities that their children were required to/were wearing wristbands. Were these wristbands fitted on entry to the creche and removed on exit when the parent signed their child out? Were such wristbands held by the employees of the creche? There certainly hasn't been a released photo of the T9 children wearing a wristband. Such wristbands hold information about child registration and creche care - and even DNA.

There was a photograph posted up on the forum a little while ago (I'm hoping someone can remember it and post it up again) showing the 'snake' - the children in the care of nannies holding onto a snake/chain to make sure they were secure whilst walking to and from beach activities/crossing roads etc.
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by cbeagle on 02.08.15 15:36

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:
The only other statement in the files available for Cat is dated the 6th May 2007 and does NOT include any mention of Madeleine and boys. Which can only mean one thing, Cat must have made another statement sometime after the 6th May 2007 and it is being witheld by the PJ.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA.htm

Her statement of 18th April 2008 to Leicestershire police states:


"I did not see Kate or Gerry that night [May 3rd]. The next time I saw them was on Saturday at breakfast, as on Friday I spent most of the morning with the Portuguese police giving a statement."

So there's an additional statement, but it's before the 6th May, on Friday 4th, therefore potentially more accurate. I wonder if Murat also translated that one.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by skyrocket on 03.08.15 10:07

The police seemed to have done informal interviews with both Cat Baker and Stacey Portz on 4 May (reproduced below). I can find no reference to Cat Baker's comment re: MBM paying 'more attention to the boys' though. There could of course be a more formal statement which has been withheld. What I also find quite odd is the comment I have highlighted which appears to have been made by one of the managers i.e. Batista or Hill. Seems a very strange thing to say considering the life of a young child was at stake - possibly a delay tactic until stories were got straight? It sounds like the police were keen to speak to Shinead Vine, who was responsible for the toddler group and who looked after Amelie and Sean for the week. 

From the PJ Files:



01-Processo 86 to 103
KIDS CLUB STAFF interviewed 4 May 2007 by Inspector M.Pinho

Processo Vol I pages 86 to 90; pages 91-103 being passport photocopies.

Today we, I and my colleague L.Madeira, spoke with Mrs Silvia Maria Correia Ramos
Batista., director of maintenance and services for the company "GREENTROUST", which manages the "OCEAN CLUB" company, contactable by mobile phone 964....
Through her, we contacted, Donna_Louise_Rafferty_Hill
(contactable by mobile phone number 964...) manager of the creche staff for the "MARK WARNER" company, [who were] responsible for Madeleine and the twins for several periods each day after the McCann family arrived in Portugal.

The latter advised us that all these employees are English nationals and that they came to work in Portugal from
March/April until November; that there are 13 people who work in the creche, their names and telephone numbers being as follows: [NOTE: Phone numbers withheld]
- Pauline Francis M.
- Emma Louise W.
- Sarah Elizabeth W.
- Susan bernadette O.
- Leanne Danielle W.
- Shinead Maria V.
- Jacqueline Mary W.
- Kirsty Louise M.
- Lynne R.F.
- Catriona Treasa Sisile B.
- Stacey P.
- Lyndsay Jayne J.
- Amy Ellen T.

--- It was determined further that all these girls live outside the complex [resort], although quite close to it, and that Catriona B. was responsible for Madeleine during the day yesterday.
--- Stacey P. was the staff member responsible for the McCann twins.
--- Usually, it is always the same young woman who cares for the same child.
--- The latest arrivals in Portugal were Sarah W. and Charlotte Pennington who arrived last Saturday, April 28th 2007. --- The informant, responsible for coordination, distributed the children between the various girls, taking care that each child was unknown to their carer.
--- The informant noticed nothing abnormal up to today and that no one was absent from work except those who were on their day off.
--- All the carers have made themselves available to speak with the police.

*CATRIONA B.*

In our informal conversation with Catriona Trease Sisile B., also known as CAT, she stated:

1. That she arrived on March 21st 2007 and that she plans to return to the UK on November 7th 2007;
2. That she cared for Madeleine since Sunday April 29th 2007, daily until yesterday and that she always worked the same hours;
3. That yesterday Madeleine arrived at 9.10. It was her father, Gerry, who brought her;
4. That her mother, Kate, picked her up at 12.25;
5. That her mother, Kate, dropped her off at 14.50 and picked her up at 17.30;
6. That in the same room as Madeleine, there were 6 other children in the morning and 4 in the afternoon (including Madeleine);
7. That she did not see any strangers in the complex during that time or previous days.
8. That on the first day, Madeleine was shy. On the following days she was more calm and uninhibited. Yesterday she was joyful.
9. That she was never far from Madeleine, keeping her under visual supervision at all times when she was her responsibility, even asking her permission to go to the bathroom;
10. That, over the days, she noticed no change in the behaviour of the child's parents;
11. That she noticed no abnormal situation relating to this family;
12. That Madeleine had not told her about any person who had contacted [spoken to] her in recent days, nor [about] any possibly suspicious conversation.

*STACEY P.*

In informal conversation with Stacey P., she stated:

1. That it is she and her colleague, Shinead, who usually cares for the twins;
2. That yesterday, it was the informant who cared for the twins, her colleague was on her day off;
3. That the children were dropped off by their parents at 9.30 and that the mother picked them up at 12.30;
4. That it was the father who dropped them off at 14.30 and that it was the mother who came to fetch them at 17.30;
5. That she saw no-one strange in the surrounding area;
6. That the behaviour of the parents was always perfectly normal;
7. That she arrived in Portugal on March 18th and that she returns to the UK on November 7th 2007.

--- That it was not possible to speak with the rest of the carers, notably Shinead, because most of them were absent and there exists higher priority work;
--- Attached are copies of the female employees' passports;
--- Attached is a list of their names with the recorded dates of arrival for each, [and] the planned date of leaving, among other things;
--- Also attached are the creche attendance registers for the children, of the recent days.

Signed: Manuel Pinho, Inspector.
______________________


Both the creche records and the nanny statements are abnormal. The statements, like those of the Mc's and the tapas 7, show a lot of duplicated responses. This may be down to the questioning and translating processes, or not. The statements also conflict in terms of the days that the day creche was run/open. Below are the nanny's responses on this point.



A. 'On duty in the week of 29 April to 4 May':

(I would suggest that 'in the week of' does not necessarily mean the same as 'from and including the 29 April i.e. the Sunday' ??)



1.Lyndsay Johnson (kids club supervisor)
2.Susan Owen (infant educator/general nanny)
3.Sarah Williamson (childcare worker/general nanny)
4.Pauline Francis (child educator/general nanny baby club; states: 'arrived in Luz on 29 April')
5.Lynne Fretter (child educator/general nanny baby club)
6.Kirsty Maryan (general nanny); States: 'she furthers that the same child, from what she saw, was a child who did stick out, precisely as she was calmer and shier that the others;'


B. 'The club is closed on Sundays, on that day it only offers the dinner service' (dinner service = evening creche):

(Unambiguous - closed on Sundays)



1.Amy Tierney (head of baby and mini clubs)

2.Leanne Wagstaff (general nanny - in toddlers that week)
3.Shinead Vine (general nanny - in toddler club that week and responsible for Amelie and Sean)


C. 'With the children every day from the 29 April until 3 May':

(Implies that Sunday is included ??)



1.Stacey Portz (general nanny/supervisor - in toddler club that week and had daily contact with Amelie and Sean)
   States: 'She also knew Madeleine as she would frequently come talk to her brother and sister when picked up by her parents;'



 D. 'The crêche is open every day, except for Saturdays at the resort, which is the day off for all the nannies, on Saturdays there is just a support service for any eventual need, involving two nannies.'


(Unambiguous - open Sundays)



1.Jacqueline Williams (pre-school teacher/general nanny - toddlers)



E. 'Working at the Mini Club for children between 3-5 years of age since April 29'



(Again, 'since April 29' is ambiguous and could include the Sunday (29th) or not ??)


1. Emma Wilding (general nanny mini club - not MBM's group)
   

States: 'that on Wednesday May 2, her group and Madeleine's group went to the beach, but she is not sure if Madeleine was in the group or not....

She remembers that during the afternoon of May 3 Madeleine was at the Mini Club, but she does not remember at what time she arrived, and if on that day Madeleine accompanied the other children at 1645 as was customary.

She is also not sure whether her parents joined her during the snack, as was customary.




F. 'On two different days, Sunday, 29th of April 2007, and on Thursday, 03rd of May 2007, she had direct contact with Madeleine McCann, telling her stories and speaking with her.'

(Unambiguous - open Sundays)


1.Charlotte Pennington (childcare worker/general nanny - baby club)
   

States that 'on two different days, Sunday, 29th of April 2007, and on Thursday, 03rd of May 2007, she had direct contact with Madeleine McCann, telling her stories and speaking with her.'


But then later in her police statement she says (!!):



'she did not maintain contact with the minor in question, Madeleine McCann, but only to the extent that she was a child educator, as she was located together where the missing child was being watched in the crêche. She is unaware of Madeleine's habits and that of her parents,


G. 'She cared for Madeleine since Sunday April 29th 2007, daily until yesterday and that she always worked the same hours;'


(Unambiguous - open on Sundays)



1. Catriona Baker (childcare worker/general nanny - in mini club for the week and responsible for MBM)



States:  'she knows the McCann family since last Sunday, 29th April, 2007, when they enrolled their daughter in the “Minis” service. She replies that since that date and until Thursday, the 03rd of May, 2007, she was with Madeleine every day, but is unable to specify if she was present on the Sunday morning.'

(Interestingly, Ella O'brien is shown as absent in the morning on the undated creche sheet which is assumed to be Sunday 29).

and Cat Baker states later in her Rogatory Statement:

'I got to know Gerry and Kate McCann on the Sunday morning, 29.04.2007, in the Minis Club. They brought the children and as it was their first day of holidays the normal procedure was that they were allocated a childcare worker. I had previously written the children's bracelets which included their name, allergies and relevant information. I stayed with Madeleine, 3 years old, in my group (Minis Club that week) together with E***, daughter of Jane Tanner.'


_____________________
  

[size=32]TripAdvisor Review of [/size][size=32]Luz Ocean Club[/size]
 
1.Wriggling_Toes
 
Initially Reviewed 27 August 2007
 
 
On Jul 16, 2015, at 07:40 AM Wriggling_Toes wrote in response to my email:

I recall they were open M-F for sure. Weekends I'm unsure about--sorry. Make sure to check on their hours as they may have changed. They will be happy to answer any of your questions though.

Best wishes,
Z

************
 
2.Bobelle
 
Initially Reviewed 9 May 2008
 
On Jul 16, 2015, at 05:55 AM bobelle wrote in response to my email:

Hi
from memory it is open 5 days per week , it is definitely not open on transfer day.... We did another MW last May in Lakitiri, Greece which had a fab kids club too, again i am sure it is for 5 days.....hope this helps, another hint with MW holidays - you can check the site maps and rooms and specify which one you want... with the Luz you need to do this as the accommodation is spread out over a village.
M

 *************


These responses would suggest that the club was only open 5 days a week ??


In their statements, some of the tapas 7 mention that they went to a 'meet and greet' held by the tapas bar on Saturday afternoon at around 4 - 5 pm. Here they signed up for sports and the kids club and met the nanny's that were going to be looking after the children.

Mathew Oldfield states:
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by skyrocket on 03.08.15 10:39

Continued from above. Apologies for the formatting appearing - no idea what I did!

Mathew Oldfield states:
'and there was also an opportunity to meet sort of the child care people and all of the sort of sports and activities people. So I think, I think at about sort of, erm, I'm not absolutely certain about this, but I think at about four o'clock we also went poolside, four or five o'clock, and that's where you met the Nannies who'd be looking after, you know, the children the next day,'
The Mc's and the tapas 7 all state that that the children did go to the kids club on Sunday 29 April, even though their recollections seem woolly, as usual. 

So what's going on? Why the clearly conflicting statements regarding the kids club opening days? The club was either open or closed - simple. Is it of any relevance, who knows? 

The creche record discrepancies have been discussed at length and are fascinating. The inability of ROB to remember whether he is in apartment 5B or 5D intrigues me. I have seen reference elsewhere that the O'brien family were actually in the smaller 5B, for some reason, and the creche records could be seen to support this. Also, why the missing date on the Lobster sheet for the 29 April? Another small point but again, who knows the relevance!

Could it be that the kids club was so badly run that there were no daily records kept? Then, missing child; panic; records produced from memory? Possibly. I've read a very interesting whistleblowing undercover report on MW's kids club at http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/03_march/05/whistleblower.shtml

But that doesn't explain the confusion over the Sunday opening. Why the need for all the subterfuge if this is 'just' a case of an abducted child on the 3 May? Why all the misdirects/lies surrounding the rest of the week? Could all these people be involved? The answer is in the very first lie, wherever that is, but it seems to be on or before the 29 April.
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by Verdi on 04.08.15 15:23

Any number of irregularities in the creche records to pick on even if not relevant to MBM's disappearance, one such trifling thing I noticed, one or two of the other guests sign their child in using the 12 hour clock and same person later signs child out using 24 hour clock - more important Kate McCann using the name Healy on just one occassion.

Judging by the way Warners promote their resorts I get the impression they pride themselves on the child care facilities provided.  From my experience of coastal holiday resorts the youngsters employed to entertain the guests, male and female alike, their priority is sun sea sex and sangria (to coin a phrase), the job being only a secondary consideration.  Whether or not the likes of Warners check credentials for the child care staff I've no idea but I wouldn't be surprised if the process of recruiting staff for seasonal work is not as thorough as it should be.

As an aside, I'm curious to know why the name of Charlotte Pennington was not included in the list of 13 child carers appointed for the season, although she is after named as being one of the last 2 to arrive.  I do believe she was on the same flight from UK to Faro as part of the Tapas9.

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by tigger on 04.08.15 17:18

@Verdi wrote:Any number of irregularities in the creche records to pick on even if not relevant to MBM's disappearance, one such trifling thing I noticed, one or two of the other guests sign their child in using the 12 hour clock and same person later signs child out using 24 hour clock - more important Kate McCann using the name Healy on just one occassion.

Judging by the way Warners promote their resorts I get the impression they pride themselves on the child care facilities provided.  From my experience of coastal holiday resorts the youngsters employed to entertain the guests, male and female alike, their priority is sun sea sex and sangria (to coin a phrase), the job being only a secondary consideration.  Whether or not the likes of Warners check credentials for the child care staff I've no idea but I wouldn't be surprised if the process of recruiting staff for seasonal work is not as thorough as it should be.

As an aside, I'm curious to know why the name of Charlotte Pennington was not included in the list of 13 child carers appointed for the season, although she is after named as being one of the last 2 to arrive.  I do believe she was on the same flight from UK to Faro as part of the Tapas9.
There are quite a few questionmarks re Pennington  (https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3253-charlotte-pennington?highlight=pennington). She flew out from Gatwick allegedly on the same flight as the O'Briens. But in his rogatory (you have to  love that man!) he says something strange - that she was there to look after the Payne's children. Now wouldn't it make perfect sense if the Tapas9 had taken a communal nanny with them for the evenings? 
It is my belief that Pennington didn't become an official nanny for MW until after 3/5. Very soon after 3/5 as surely it would have been easy enough to just add her name to the list?

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by Nina on 04.08.15 17:27

@tigger wrote:
@Verdi wrote:Any number of irregularities in the creche records to pick on even if not relevant to MBM's disappearance, one such trifling thing I noticed, one or two of the other guests sign their child in using the 12 hour clock and same person later signs child out using 24 hour clock - more important Kate McCann using the name Healy on just one occassion.

Judging by the way Warners promote their resorts I get the impression they pride themselves on the child care facilities provided.  From my experience of coastal holiday resorts the youngsters employed to entertain the guests, male and female alike, their priority is sun sea sex and sangria (to coin a phrase), the job being only a secondary consideration.  Whether or not the likes of Warners check credentials for the child care staff I've no idea but I wouldn't be surprised if the process of recruiting staff for seasonal work is not as thorough as it should be.

As an aside, I'm curious to know why the name of Charlotte Pennington was not included in the list of 13 child carers appointed for the season, although she is after named as being one of the last 2 to arrive.  I do believe she was on the same flight from UK to Faro as part of the Tapas9.
There are quite a few questionmarks re Pennington  (https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3253-charlotte-pennington?highlight=pennington). She flew out from Gatwick allegedly on the same flight as the O'Briens. But in his rogatory (you have to  love that man!) he says something strange - that she was there to look after the Payne's children. Now wouldn't it make perfect sense if the Tapas9 had taken a communal nanny with them for the evenings? 
It is my belief that Pennington didn't become an official nanny for MW until after 3/5. Very soon after 3/5 as surely it would have been easy enough to just add her name to the list?
I have not read that Tigger re the looking after the Paynes children, they with the super child monitor. Would make perfect sense a tapas group Nanny.

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by skyrocket on 04.08.15 19:32

@tigger

Re: Charlotte Pennington - likewise, I hadn't read that in ROB's rogatory! But you know it might explain something which I've found curious. Apartment 5H had 2 bedrooms. Apparently Dr's Payne and baby Scarlet shared one and daughter Lily slept in a cot in bedroom 2. The bed/s in bedroom 2 were presumably left unused as poor old Dianne Webster was forced to sleep on the sofa bed in the lounge! Why wouldn't she share a room with her granddaughter Lily and have a proper bed?! Unless someone else was using the bed in Lily's room! Could it have been the live in nanny, CP?!
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by Verdi on 04.08.15 22:06

@tigger wrote:
@Verdi wrote:Any number of irregularities in the creche records to pick on even if not relevant to MBM's disappearance, one such trifling thing I noticed, one or two of the other guests sign their child in using the 12 hour clock and same person later signs child out using 24 hour clock - more important Kate McCann using the name Healy on just one occassion.

Judging by the way Warners promote their resorts I get the impression they pride themselves on the child care facilities provided.  From my experience of coastal holiday resorts the youngsters employed to entertain the guests, male and female alike, their priority is sun sea sex and sangria (to coin a phrase), the job being only a secondary consideration.  Whether or not the likes of Warners check credentials for the child care staff I've no idea but I wouldn't be surprised if the process of recruiting staff for seasonal work is not as thorough as it should be.

As an aside, I'm curious to know why the name of Charlotte Pennington was not included in the list of 13 child carers appointed for the season, although she is after named as being one of the last 2 to arrive.  I do believe she was on the same flight from UK to Faro as part of the Tapas9.
There are quite a few questionmarks re Pennington  (https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3253-charlotte-pennington?highlight=pennington). She flew out from Gatwick allegedly on the same flight as the O'Briens. But in his rogatory (you have to  love that man!) he says something strange - that she was there to look after the Payne's children. Now wouldn't it make perfect sense if the Tapas9 had taken a communal nanny with them for the evenings? 
It is my belief that Pennington didn't become an official nanny for MW until after 3/5. Very soon after 3/5 as surely it would have been easy enough to just add her name to the list?
I was just looking for something specific relating to Pennington and came across O'Brien's rogatory, he says:

[color:c30a=000000]"I recall that Charlotte PENNINGTON who was a nanny at Mark Warner was also sat on the bus- I believe that she looked after Fiona and Dave’s kids.[color:c30a=000000]"

[color:c30a=000000]Interpret that as you will[color:c30a=000000].




 

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by Verdi on 04.08.15 22:38

@tigger wrote:
@Verdi wrote:Any number of irregularities in the creche records to pick on even if not relevant to MBM's disappearance, one such trifling thing I noticed, one or two of the other guests sign their child in using the 12 hour clock and same person later signs child out using 24 hour clock - more important Kate McCann using the name Healy on just one occassion.

Judging by the way Warners promote their resorts I get the impression they pride themselves on the child care facilities provided.  From my experience of coastal holiday resorts the youngsters employed to entertain the guests, male and female alike, their priority is sun sea sex and sangria (to coin a phrase), the job being only a secondary consideration.  Whether or not the likes of Warners check credentials for the child care staff I've no idea but I wouldn't be surprised if the process of recruiting staff for seasonal work is not as thorough as it should be.

As an aside, I'm curious to know why the name of Charlotte Pennington was not included in the list of 13 child carers appointed for the season, although she is after named as being one of the last 2 to arrive.  I do believe she was on the same flight from UK to Faro as part of the Tapas9.
There are quite a few questionmarks re Pennington  (https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3253-charlotte-pennington?highlight=pennington). She flew out from Gatwick allegedly on the same flight as the O'Briens. But in his rogatory (you have to  love that man!) he says something strange - that she was there to look after the Payne's children. Now wouldn't it make perfect sense if the Tapas9 had taken a communal nanny with them for the evenings? 
It is my belief that Pennington didn't become an official nanny for MW until after 3/5. Very soon after 3/5 as surely it would have been easy enough to just add her name to the list?
My thoughts exactly although I've never heard about O'Brien's comment before.  I've read mccannfiles.com extensive coverage of all things Pennington - interesting to say the least, above all else her implied knowledge of Maddie/Madeleine and her parents.  Extraordinary for a hired nanny at a tourist resort to be so conversant with a childs disposition and parental devotion, she had a lot more to say than the staff who directly attended to  MBM at the crèche, why was she up front in the UK media?

Pennington's various statements and press interviews are riddled with inconsistencies, I've never been able to decide whether she is a bona fide witness, a consummate liar, an actress, a fairy or a combination of all four.  One thing for sure, she's certainly not straightforward.  I seem to recall reading somewhere that she worked as a nanny in the UK (private arrangement not a nursery) but just looking couldn't find confirmation - maybe it was Catriona Baker I'm thinking of.  Whatever it has long since occurred to me that Pennington and/or Baker may have previously worked as a nanny for the McCanns or their friends in the UK.  Remember the local Rothley pub landlady saying something about the McCanns nanny?

Another oddity that strikes me - Pennington and the Tapas lot took great pains to implicate Robert Murat even though he put himself forward as quasi official translator for the PJ.  It's almost as if their attempts to implicate Murat were a deliberate act to divert attention away from what Murat was really up to.  IIRC one of the PJ officers thought Murat was paying too much attention by prying into the investigation and asking too many questions.  From my knowledge if a UK citizen is involved in a crime abroad, the Consulate provide details of translators etc., which begs the question why Murat took it upon himself to volunteer and why his mother set-up a street stall for people to volunteer information if reluctant to contact the police - but I digress.

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by notlongnow on 04.08.15 23:08

Read all this today for the first time,great thread worth reading or a re read;

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3253-charlotte-pennington?highlight=charlotte

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by cbeagle on 05.08.15 5:11

Thanks notlongnow, interesting reading.

The mental connection I made was that Charlotte Pennington said the twins were not in the apartment, so I wondered how it tied in the unbelievable action of Kate leaving the twins alone when she thought Madeleine had been abducted. Maybe Kate was willing to run back to the Tapas restaurant because the twins were not there, and she wasn't expecting them to be? If so, where were the twins?

Just random thoughts ...

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by sharonl on 05.08.15 7:22

@cbeagle wrote:Thanks notlongnow, interesting reading.

The mental connection I made was that Charlotte Pennington said the twins were not in the apartment, so I wondered how it tied in the unbelievable action of Kate leaving the twins alone when she thought Madeleine had been abducted. Maybe Kate was willing to run back to the Tapas restaurant because the twins were not there, and she wasn't expecting them to be? If so, where were the twins?

Just random thoughts ...


It was suggested that all the children in the group were sleeping in one apartment, probably the Payne's.

Could the sleeping children being transferred to 5a explain the length of time that Gerry was away from the tapas?  Is this a reason that they may have needed something to help them sleep?  Just a thought of course.

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by Doug D on 05.08.15 8:50

Cbeagle:
 
‘Maybe Kate was willing to run back to the Tapas restaurant because the twins were not there’
 
Certainly makes more sense as to why KM didn’t just scream like hell from the balcony over to the Tapas. No way would anyone ever leave the other two children when help was within shouting distance.

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by skyrocket on 06.03.16 10:50

Transferred my post below from Re: Naylor, R*der, McCann, crèche signatures revisited as seemed a more appropriate thread. Mods - please delete from other location if required. Thanks

****************

Is there categoric evidence that MBM's mini club was being held at the location of the 24 hour reception building in April/May 2007?



From their start up date in Portugal in spring 2006 all the way through to July 2007 when the Praia da Luz web pages were taken down and re-vamped, Mark Warner were advertising the following:


Located in the Waterside Garden is our fully equipped childcare centre offering our award winning childcare for children aged 4 months and upwards. There is a colourful crèche with an outdoor play area and the nannies organise regular beach trips and other supervised fun activities for the children. Hours are 9am till 12.30pm and 2.30pm to 5.30pm.

We offer a ‘dining out service’ (only available for parents using the Millenium and Tapas restaurants). in the crèche on a drop-in basis in the evenings for children aged 4 months to 9 years. For those parents wishing to dine at alternative restaurants in the village, babysitting is available on request at additional charge. Our Indy Club for 14-17 year olds is situated near the Ocean Club Gardens.

Waterside Gardens is the Tapas Restaurant site with the 'tented roofed' childcare centre measuring about 10 metres square. Ocean Club Gardens is to the North and encompasses the Millenium Restaurant. The main 24 hour reception is situated at the edge of this part of the resort i.e. the main reception comes under the Ocean Club Gardens, not Waterside Gardens. This is how the Mark Warner also described it:

The Ocean Club is a ‘village-style’ resort made up of apartments situated in three different locations around the village of Praia da Luz.

Ocean Club Gardens is set on the hillside in the north of the village, with apartments either overlooking one of the pools or set further south, close to the indoor pool and reception. The older Kids Club, MIllenium Restaurant and 3 of the tennis courts are located here, a 10-minute walk from the beach.

Waterside Gardens is located in the west of the village, beside a pool with a separate children’s paddling pool. There are 2 tennis courts, the younger children's club and the Tapas Restaurant and Bar also situated here.

Waterside Village is located right beside the beach, with swimming pools and tennis courts a 5-minute walk away. One-bedroom apartments sleep 3-4 people in a twin bedroom, and on a sofabed in the separate living area. Two-bedroom apartments sleep 4-5 people in either two twin rooms or a twin and a double, with space for an extra bed in the living area.

In October 2007, at the latest, Mark Warner then introduced new web pages, including a Resort Map (Resort Map 1). This map clearly indentified the above described areas as those being used for childcare. They also introduced a photo of the tented childcare centre showing about ten 4/5 year olds, with nannies. Resort Map 1 remained until spring 2009.

In spring 2009 the Resort Map was changed to show all the children's clubs at the Millenium site, apart from the minis (Madeleine's/Ella's club) which was shown as being in the main reception building.

I accept that having just set up the resort as a panic strategy in spring 2006 (after Pedras del Rei fell through), that the childcare might have been jiggled around. However, despite numerous changes being made to Mark Warner's website between April 2006 and spring 2009, it always showed the younger children's clubs being located at the Tapas Restaurant site. There is no mention of any clubs being located in the main reception building. Why, if the mini club had started at the Tapas site and had been subsequently moved to the main reception building, would the website and the LATER produced Resort Map 1 not have been changed to reflect this and keep guests fully informed? Particularly as Resort Map 2 was introduced in 2009 showing the mini club in the reception building (i.e. why was this map not introduced earlier?).

Did the mini club (and baby club for that matter) start at the Tapas site in 2006 (as advertised), only to be moved to the main reception building (without any notification of this change being made on the website) at some time during the 2006 summer season or at the start of the 2007 summer season, finally to be moved 'back' to the Tapas Restaurant site in mid/late summer 2007, as shown on Resort Map 1 (which was only introduced after July 2007)?

More to follow in next post.
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by skyrocket on 06.03.16 10:51

Continued from post above:

Resort Map 1 below (captured 11 October 2007 and not on website pre-July 2007):

Baby Club - 4 to 11 months (Scarlet Payne)
Toddler 1 - one year olds (Grace Oldfield; Evie O'Brien)
Toddler 2 - two year olds (Amelie; Sean; Lily Payne)
Minis - three to five year olds (Madeleine; Ella O'Brien)
Juniors - six to nine
Kidz - ten to thirteen
Indy - fourteen to seventeen

It appears that the Kidz and Indy Clubs only operated in school holiday periods.



Who states that the Mini Club (and Baby Club) is/are in the main reception building?

The Mc's
The Tapas 7
Nanny Cat Baker (including police re-enactment of walk to beach with the mini club from the main reception building)
Nanny Charlotte Pennington
Nanny Jaqueline Williams
Nanny Stacy Portz
Anyone else?

Why would they state this if it wasn't the case?

Another point that intrigues me is Amy Tierney's statement regarding being 'at her desk at the Tapas Bar' when ROB approached her to ask for help to print photos. In Tierney's first police statement it says this: 'She confirms that she works as head of the Baby Club and Mini Club, the former being for children aged up to eleven months and the latter for children aged between three and five'. Why then would her desk be located at the Tapas Bar if both of the clubs she oversaw were based in the reception building? She managed Cat Baker and Emma Wilding (Minis) and Charlotte Pennington, Lynne Fretter and Pauline McCann (Babies). All five nannies would theoretically have been based in the main reception building during the day, according to statements (not according to Mark Warner's website). It would seem more likely that Tierney's desk would have been based at the site of the clubs she managed rather than anywhere else (wouldn't it?).

Any thoughts or info out there to definitively confirm one way or the other?

Thanks
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by aquila on 06.03.16 18:11

I'm going off on a tangent here. Please mods, find somewhere to place this post.

I don't believe the creche records are in anyway the supposed legitimate records that should be expected from holidaymakers. As to their authenticity, well who knows?

What I simply can't believe is the twins were placed back in the creche the morning after Madeleine's disappearance. That stinks to me. 9 adults between them couldn't take care of the twins within hours of Madeleine going missing. The twins were placed back in the creche!

I'd have held onto my babies. I'd have also expected my friends to hold onto my babies. I'd have suspected everyone who wasn't known to me. I'd have asked, nay demanded, that the creche workers be investigated. I'd have wanted them to be tested for drugs. I'd have wanted to know who they'd been going out with.
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by NickE on 18.03.16 19:24

@Get'emGonçalo wrote:25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up


1. Despite Cat’s claims, why was there no ID bracelets photographed on any child before the 3rd?
2. Despite Cat’s claims, why was AM & PM on one sheet instead of two seperate ones?
3. Charlotte Pennington is missing from the list of crèche staff given to the PJ by Donna Hall of Mark Warner on the 4th.
4. Stacey Portz claimed that Gerry signed the twins in PM on the 3rd, but the crèche sheet says K McCann did.
5. Stacey Portz claimed that Kate collected the twins AM on the 3rd, but Fiona said Gerry did.
6. Robert Naylor’s signatories are erratic and noticeably different every day.
7. Robert Naylor enters the wrong room number every day.
8. Russell O’Brien enters Emma instead of Ella for his daughter on the 1st.
9. Russell O’Brien enters the wrong room number 5B, on the 30th.
10. Russell O’Brien enters 5B again and changes it to 5D, twice on the 2nd.
11. Russell O’Brien enters R O’Brien, instead of his daughter’s name PM on the 30th.
12. On enlarging the McCann & Naylor signatures, there are several identical writing styles starting from the 29th.
13. Catriona Baker for some reason starts entering ‘Cat nanny’ on the crèche sheets from the 1st.
14. Madeleine is signed in at 15.15 and out again at 15.30 by K McCann on the 30th.
15. Kate’s signatures in the Jellyfish on the same day have straight 2’s AM & curly 2’s PM, suggesting two different people.
16. Kate enters KM Healey instead of K McCann, for the first and only time on the 2nd.
17. Kate does not attend the Lobsters group at all on the 1st.
18. PJ final report does not mention Shinead Vine, the twins carer almost every day, only Stacey Portz.
19. Catriona Baker makes a retraction from an earlier statement concerning Madeleine offering more attention to boys.
20. That particular Catriona Baker statement has been withheld by the PJ.
21. No member of staff can remember seeing Madeleine on the 28th, arrival day.
22. Catriona Baker claims the first time she met the McCann’s was on the 29th.
23. Yet Catriona Baker claimed she had Madeleine’s ID bracelet with allergy information ready, for when she first arrived.
24. PJ withholds twins crèche sheet, for AM on the 29th.
25. PJ withholds twins crèche sheet, for AM on the 3rd.


On the 18th April 2008, Cat was interviewed by Leicestershire Police over 3 separate sessions on the same day, in relation to her Rogatory Interview.

10.09 to 10.54 = 45 mins

11.57 to 12.12 = 15 mins

13.35 to 13.45 = 10 mins

It would appear that after the first session and during the second, Cat needed to make a retraction;

“Between 11h57 and 12h12 of the same day I was again interviewed on DVD by DC GIERC. During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police. There are two facts that I would like to clarify: "dining out service" which is mentioned is available for the adults, being that the children would be left under the care of a childcare worker during dinner. My original deposition also mentioned that Madeleine offered more attention to the boys in the club. I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter. I confirm that the deposition in this second DVD is truthful and in accord with my knowledge and that it will be registered”.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm

The only other statement in the files available for Cat is dated the 6th May 2007 and does NOT include any mention of Madeleine and boys. Which can only mean one thing, Cat must have made another statement sometime after the 6th May 2007 and it is being witheld by the PJ.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA.htm

Bearing in mind that a lot of the nannies were almost immediately relocated to other countries, I wonder when and how this 'other' "deposition" came about?

The reason I feel that this retraction is very important, is because the child suspected of replacing Madeleine in creche that week, has a brother.

With thanks to 'Stella'
**DELETED**
Already posted in another topic.

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by G-Unit on 19.03.16 10:16

I have examined the creche set up and it was clearly below standard. Children were not signed out, children were signed out but hadn't been signed in and Cat Baker signed the sheets instead of the parents. For insurance or in an emergency situation the signing sheets were useless. The set-up was very unprofessional.


On Friday 4th Russell tells us; 


MARK WARNER had said, you know, ‘We’ll open the crèche and all of the children can stay at the Tapas irrespective of age and there’s more staff on there so’

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm



Bridget O'Donnell elaborates about the Friday morning;


We walked towards the kiddie club............Our daughter ran inside and started painting.......We put their bags on the pegs and saw the one labelled "Madeleine".

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

So Bridget's daughter, who was a 'Mini' ran in and started painting. At the Tapas creche. The child didn't say anything about being in a different place and she knew where the paints were. Not only that, Bridget tells us there was a peg with Madeleine's name on it at the Tapas creche where Madeleine had, according to the McCann group and the nannies, never been that week. Was Bridget embroidering her story or was the Mini group housed at the Tapas creche all week? 


The Junior group was supposed to be based at the Millenium, but;

The deponent further clarifies that the Junior group does not find itself subdivided from the other groups, in that, at this moment, there are not enough children that permit it; 

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KIRSTY-MARYAN.htm

'Classroom' suggests in the same building, not a five/ten minute walk away;

She says that the twins were generally left at the creche at 09.00 and that the parents dropped them off before leaving Madeleine in her classroom.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SARA-ELIZABETH-WILLIAMSON.htm


Finally, Fiona Payne confirmed that it was very quiet;

Erm, there was only kind of two babies in the baby room and about three, huh, carers, again, it was very quiet. 

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm



She also said in her rog interview that the twins, the O'Brien and Oldfield children were all in the same room, which suggests that Toddlers 1 and 2 were kept together. Some days one of the three nannies looking after Toddlers 2 had one or no children in their care. 

Although 48 MW children were eligible to attend the creches and Kids Clubs it seems not many did. There were 8 'babies' booked into MW that week, but Fiona said only two attended the creche. Kirsty Maryan said there were not enough children that week to justify separating the Juniors to the Millenium site. (She also said she had 7 Juniors, but I could only find 4 MW children in that age group) 


On the whole a case can be made for all the children to have been housed in the tented roofed building behind the Tapas. 

The next question is why not just say so? Why have no other parents come forward to say that the childcare was at the Tapas? Why would the Tapas 9 go along with it? 
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by Doug D on 19.03.16 11:26

Personally I am satisfied that MM was based at the club above the main reception, with the twins at the Tapas area.
 
Kirsty suggests that the juniors were lumped in with MM that week, but I don’t believe she is talking about the tiny tots as well.
 
Snips from Russell:
 
‘Monday 30th April 2007 I recall I may have done some windsurfing this was just after I’d dropped Ella off at the kids club near the Ocean Club and Evie at crèche near to the Tapas bar. ‘
 
‘1578    “And the Kids Club was the reception, wasn’t it'”
 Reply    “That was down at the, yeah, the Ocean Club.  Erm, Evie was in the, the crèche, but immediately behind the Tapas. ‘
 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
 
When Russell talks about MW agreeing for all the children to go to the Tapas area, he is talking about 4th May, as is Bridget O’Donnell, who clearly took her daughter to the main reception club, where they initially found nobody had turned up and saw MM’s labeled coat hook.
 
You could just about interpret her article to say that both of her kids were left at the same place, but it does not actually state this and her article should be taken with a large pinch of salt in any event, as even the title ‘My months with Madeleine’ is decidedly wishful thinking.
 
Quite how much interaction there was between the groups has never been made clear, and confusion has always existed about the various crèche timetables for that week, but it would also be nice to clarify things like:
 
‘When the parents picked up the twins at lunch time, all the children were together in the same place so they picked up Madeleine as well’.
 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SARA-ELIZABETH-WILLIAMSON.htm
 
Why, where, when & how?

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by G-Unit on 19.03.16 12:22

@Doug D wrote:Personally I am satisfied that MM was based at the club above the main reception, with the twins at the Tapas area.
 
Kirsty suggests that the juniors were lumped in with MM that week, but I don’t believe she is talking about the tiny tots as well.
 
Snips from Russell:
 
‘Monday 30th April 2007 I recall I may have done some windsurfing this was just after I’d dropped Ella off at the kids club near the Ocean Club and Evie at crèche near to the Tapas bar. ‘
 
‘1578    “And the Kids Club was the reception, wasn’t it'”
 Reply    “That was down at the, yeah, the Ocean Club.  Erm, Evie was in the, the crèche, but immediately behind the Tapas. ‘
 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
 
When Russell talks about MW agreeing for all the children to go to the Tapas area, he is talking about 4th May, as is Bridget O’Donnell, who clearly took her daughter to the main reception club, where they initially found nobody had turned up and saw MM’s labeled coat hook.
 
You could just about interpret her article to say that both of her kids were left at the same place, but it does not actually state this and her article should be taken with a large pinch of salt in any event, as even the title ‘My months with Madeleine’ is decidedly wishful thinking.
 
Quite how much interaction there was between the groups has never been made clear, and confusion has always existed about the various crèche timetables for that week, but it would also be nice to clarify things like:
 
‘When the parents picked up the twins at lunch time, all the children were together in the same place so they picked up Madeleine as well’.
 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SARA-ELIZABETH-WILLIAMSON.htm
 
Why, where, when & how?
Sara W's statement seems to be a mistranslation. I laboriously typed it into google translate and 'lunch' isn't mentioned in the Portuguese version, it seems to say 'snack' if I recall correctly. (I'm not doing it again). ''

Kirsty didn't say the Juniors were with MM, just that they weren't separate from the other children that week.

Russell's statement can't be taken into account; it's part of the problem.

Bridget O'Donnell may have been indulging in journalistic exaggeration but she didn't see MM's peg above reception on 4th if she's telling the truth. She saw it as she was putting her kid's bags on their hooks after she saw the nannies waiting for them. Clearly she was at the location where she was leaving her kids on 4th. So did her two kids and MM have named pegs at the Tapas creche or not? If they did they were there all week, they weren't written out on the morning of 4th, because a label for MM wouldn't have been needed. Only one of her kids should have had a named peg there, the other child was a 'Mini'.
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by Verdi on 19.03.16 12:25

Sorry to be cynical - nah, second thoughts I'm not sorry at all - but you'd be hard pushed to make any sense out of the Tapas crew rogatory interviews, oh and my my, how miraculously their respective recall did improve over time -  but then they did have nearly a year to re-create their story.  You really have to marvel at the reason behind those tale telling rogatory interviews.

The article featured in the Guardian, courtesy of Bridget O'Donnell is in my opinion utter nonsense, not even worthy of mention.  Unless of course she was working behind the scenes, so to speak, for the planned Crimewatch production - then of course it could be considered an innocent explanation for anything and everything the police might find, on the surface it serves no other purpose.

Who knows, had the creche staff concerned not been so swiftly relocated and the PJ investigation allowed to continue unimpeded, the creche issue may have been probed with more diligence.

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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by G-Unit on 19.03.16 13:31

@Verdi wrote:Sorry to be cynical - nah, second thoughts I'm not sorry at all - but you'd be hard pushed to make any sense out of the Tapas crew rogatory interviews, oh and my my, how miraculously their respective recall did improve over time -  but then they did have nearly a year to re-create their story.  You really have to marvel at the reason behind those tale telling rogatory interviews.

The article featured in the Guardian, courtesy of Bridget O'Donnell is in my opinion utter nonsense, not even worthy of mention.  Unless of course she was working behind the scenes, so to speak, for the planned Crimewatch production - then of course it could be considered an innocent explanation for anything and everything the police might find, on the surface it serves no other purpose.

Who knows, had the creche staff concerned not been so swiftly relocated and the PJ investigation allowed to continue unimpeded, the creche issue may have been probed with more diligence.
O'Donnell's article was clearly an over sentimental sympathy piece. If she accidentally leaked some 'truths', though, then it's worthy of mention. 

It's the same with the rog interviews. On the face of it they're not useful because the people concerned had time to work out what to say, they were allowed to see their previous statements etc. Nevertheless there are nuggets of information to be found when people got carried away and just waffled on. It was only after quite a few readings that I picked up the fact about where all the creches/clubs were on 4th.
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Re: 25 reasons to take a much closer look at the creche set-up

Post by Guest on 19.03.16 16:17

@aquila wrote:The creche setup was never right imo. There are so many things Stella pointed out which even if considered on a 'stand-alone' basis simply aren't credible...the creche wristbands being one of them - I'm only singling out one point in a very long list.

To my knowledge there has never been a declaration from anyone using the OC creche facilities that their children were required to/were wearing wristbands. Were these wristbands fitted on entry to the creche and removed on exit when the parent signed their child out? Were such wristbands held by the employees of the creche? There certainly hasn't been a released photo of the T9 children wearing a wristband. Such wristbands hold information about child registration and creche care - and even DNA.

There was a photograph posted up on the forum a little while ago (I'm hoping someone can remember it and post it up again) showing the 'snake' - the children in the care of nannies holding onto a snake/chain to make sure they were secure whilst walking to and from beach activities/crossing roads etc.
Can I second a request for a photo of Sammy snake?



Sammy may well be a VIP.  Or should that be a VIS?
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