Re: Discrepancy about the McCann twins being in the Creche on Thursday morning

by MrsC 30.07.14 11:32

aiyoyo wrote:Who is JG?

John Geraghty, I think.

by HelenMeg 30.07.14 11:42

Justformaddie wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:I just can't see in this day and age, or 07, why someone or several, would let themselves get involved with the cover up of the death of a 3yr old child IMO
Well thats fair enough.

I can easily believe it - if they hadn't let themselves get involved then their reputations, on which their status and lifestyle depends, comes plummeting down to the gutter. There was nothing that could be done to help the dead child...

Out of interest then JustforMaddie, from what you believe, you obviously think that Mr and Mrs Mc Cann acted alone with no help? Interesting.
Hell no, not on their own helenmeg, just not with as many outsiders. I don't know what happened exactly, I just think less is more and closer to home, would be a lot more safer with less people to break. IMO

Yes - the fewer the better...of course. I just hope one day we get to know and understand, apart from seeing justice .

by Liz Eagles 30.07.14 11:50

Money, sex and drugs are things that motivate criminals and control others.

There's no such thing as an original crime. If you apply money, sex, drugs (in any order/combination) to what happened it'll probably get you fairly close to the truth.

I think we can exclude insanity from what happened to Madeleine.

by Justformaddie 30.07.14 11:50

HelenMeg wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:I just can't see in this day and age, or 07, why someone or several, would let themselves get involved with the cover up of the death of a 3yr old child IMO
Well thats fair enough.

I can easily believe it - if they hadn't let themselves get involved then their reputations, on which their status and lifestyle depends, comes plummeting down to the gutter. There was nothing that could be done to help the dead child...

Out of interest then JustforMaddie, from what you believe, you obviously think that Mr and Mrs Mc Cann acted alone with no help? Interesting.
Hell no, not on their own helenmeg, just not with as many outsiders. I don't know what happened exactly, I just think less is more and closer to home, would be a lot more safer with less people to break. IMO
Yes - the fewer the better...of course. I just hope one day we get to know and understand, apart from seeing justice .

Me too, and not forgetting the rest of them. If these parents weren't so selfish and into each other, little maddie would still be living and with her family. How they've got away with this so far is baffling IMO

by Carrry On Doctor 30.07.14 12:03

HelenMeg wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:I just can't see in this day and age, or 07, why someone or several, would let themselves get involved with the cover up of the death of a 3yr old child IMO
Well thats fair enough.

I can easily believe it - if they hadn't let themselves get involved then their reputations, on which their status and lifestyle depends, comes plummeting down to the gutter. There was nothing that could be done to help the dead child...

Out of interest then JustforMaddie, from what you believe, you obviously think that Mr and Mrs Mc Cann acted alone with no help? Interesting.

Totally agree.

Gerrys mantra is 'to move on' - MBM could not be brought back. GM is hardened to death, so whilst no doubt being distraught, he could deal with it better than most and maintain a thought process.

Making the best of the situation would now be the priority......careers, lifestyle, social standing, the twins......lots at stake.

Others in the group would have been reminded of the same, very forcefully IMO.

All of the above IMO.

by HelenMeg 30.07.14 12:14

Carrry On Doctor wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:I just can't see in this day and age, or 07, why someone or several, would let themselves get involved with the cover up of the death of a 3yr old child IMO
Well thats fair enough.

I can easily believe it - if they hadn't let themselves get involved then their reputations, on which their status and lifestyle depends, comes plummeting down to the gutter. There was nothing that could be done to help the dead child...

Out of interest then JustforMaddie, from what you believe, you obviously think that Mr and Mrs Mc Cann acted alone with no help? Interesting.
Totally agree.

Gerrys mantra is 'to move on' - MBM could not be brought back. GM is hardened to death, so whilst no doubt being distraught, he could deal with it better than most and maintain a thought process.

Making the best of the situation would now be the priority......careers, lifestyle, social standing, the twins......lots at stake.

Others in the group would have been reminded of the same, very forcefully IMO.

All of the above IMO.

Yes - totally - Carry on Doctor !!

Carry on Doctor - exactly what they aimed to do.

by Justformaddie 30.07.14 12:51

Just thinking, if Murat was called in to help, why would 4 (I think) of the tapas7 give evidence against him? If he helped, k&gm would not have let that happen, knowing if he was charged, he would have told on all of them.
IMO

by j.rob 30.07.14 16:28

Justformaddie wrote:Just thinking, if Murat was called in to help, why would 4 (I think) of the tapas7 give evidence against him? If he helped, k&gm would not have let that happen, knowing if he was charged, he would have told on all of them.
IMO

Could it have been deliberate obfuscation? Also, how weird that he was involved in early police translations. What was all that about? Wasn't it a journalist in England that voiced suspicions about him at one stage?

by HelenMeg 30.07.14 16:35

Justformaddie wrote:Just thinking, if Murat was called in to help, why would 4 (I think) of the tapas7 give evidence against him? If he helped, k&gm would not have let that happen, knowing if he was charged, he would have told on all of them.
IMO

A theory is that they used him to deflect attention from the real suspects... remember they then all changed their minds - decided it was definitely not him - for his trouble he got a large payout. I think that up front he was promised he would be rewarded for his troubles

by Justformaddie 30.07.14 16:45

Would that not be like, hello Robert, there's been an accident and we need you here for translations, then we'll give evidence against you but don't worry, you will be paid well once we have the case shelved and you'll not be spending any time in jail either?

by j.rob 30.07.14 17:22

Hicks wrote:Miss Chekeya was invited to join GM at his table sometime between 9.30-9.50 on the Tuesday night. Miss Chekeya said in her statement that there was one place setting unused and she could not remember seeing Kate McCann so Kate was probably back in the apartment by 10.00 or just after.

Between 22.16 and 22.27 KM phone was activated six times in rapid fire, probably whilst in 5a. Was she phoning a friend complaining about her useless husband who was now flirting? The husband who also left her to constantly look after three children, one a real handful who now wouldn't stop crying?

Mrs Fenn stated that the crying started 22.30, Madeleine crying for her father. Did Madeleine know her mother was already in the flat? It is highly likely that she heard her mother enter 5a as she was obviously not asleep. Perhaps Kate had told her to be quiet, or had been into the children's bedroom shouting at her to go back to sleep. Kate would have been stressed, upset, angry with GM for ignoring her and possibly flirting with the pretty Quiz master.
Madeleine continued crying for over an hour.....then suddenly the crying stopped as the doors were opened. Could it be that someone went out instead of entering? Imo this is the time that Madeleine sadly died.

On the Wednesday morning KM was up very early on the phone to her friend Amanda( who's husband is a pathologist). According to the phone records there are no details of how long these calls lasted or whether they were SMSs, they were all deleted. Also on the Wednesday Kate received that call from a landline in Swansea. This was the day that help from the UK was mobilized imo.

On the Tuesday evening, and the Wednesday it is possible to see a pattern of events. An outburst of uncontrolled temper, frustration and anger perhaps unleashed onto Madeleine, who was on the receiving end.

GM stands by his wife as no doubt she has told him that he is equally guilty as his actions that night drove her to such an extreme.

The McCann's must know people in power, or know bad things about people in power, or have had intimate dealings of some kind with people in power to get the protection they have enjoyed.

All my opinion. not factual.

I think this may be getting close to *some* of it. Although it still does not explain the very high level cover-up and the Jeremy Wilkins curiosity. Unless, as I sometimes theorize, there was a plan prior to the holiday to fake an abduction in order to get rich/famous and so on.

The jealousy card provides a MOTIVE. My guess is that Gerry had/has a roving eye. He strikes me as the 'alpha male' type. With three very young children to look after, Gerry may have been feeling neglected and in need of an ego-boost. Inviting the attractive aerobics instructor (who may have caught his eye from day one) to join the group at the table could be seen as a deliberately provocative move.

I wonder if this is the evening that Kate went off in a huff? The episode that she downplays in her book and pretends happened on another night? When, in reality, Kate stormed off in a rage - feeling publically humiliated in front of a group of friends - and struck out in anger. It could be that she 'blamed' the pitter-patter of tiny feet for the state of the marriage which I would guess was not a bed of roses.

Even the most robust relationship can be strained with very young children to look after.

by j.rob 30.07.14 17:38

Justformaddie wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
Carrry On Doctor wrote:. . . why do you go for Wednesday specifically ?
I don't.
I just go back to a day before Thursday, and Wednesday evening / night seems to fit.
It also involves a lot less complications and a lot fewer people.
The further back you try to push it, the more complicated becomes all the organisation.

If you assume Sunday for example - why not 'dispose' on Monday
Why wait ?

I go along with a day earlier.
The anomalies with creche record and phone record seem strange, no doubt.
Earlier death would have to mean earlier disposal.
I can't see the body left for a few days in full view of the twins.
Then there is the mortis rigor and smell issue.
Died night before and disposed off next morning taken out in blue bag seems more plausible.
Same here, I don't think k&gm, as bad as they are, could cope with the body of their daughter hidden in the apartment for a few days with them and the twins, a short time yes, til the plan was hatched. I also don't think anyone else would agree to store maddie for a few days to help them out either, that's just too far IMO

Why did Rachael and Matt flag up that there was a terrible smell coming from their apartment because their daughter had chronic diarrhea? I just don't understand why they would tell police that? Was it to explain the need to do a lot of washing? Or was it because independent witnesses had possibly noted a smell coming from the apartment, and they needed to provide an explanation for it?

I'm not necessarily suggesting it is suspicious. But obviously if the scent of a dead body was found in the McCann apartment, as the sniffer dogs suggest, then that leads to questioning of everything that the McCanns and their friends have said in their police statements.

While something may have *happened* on Monday evening, Madeleine may not have died until later on in the week. Suppose someone had, accidentally or otherwise, hit her or abused her to overdosed her earlier in the week. There may have been a frantic few days of working out what to do. Suppose she had been in urgent need of medical treatment, but they were reluctant to take her to hospital as it would reveal things that wanted to keep secret.

It is an awful thought, I know. But IF Madeleine had not been given timely access to appropriate treatment, which had in some way contributed to her demise, that alone is a massive reason to cover up and lie. It's negligence of the worst kind.

Again, only purporting a theory. I hope it is not correct.

by j.rob 30.07.14 17:40

j.rob wrote:
Justformaddie wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
Carrry On Doctor wrote:. . . why do you go for Wednesday specifically ?
I don't.
I just go back to a day before Thursday, and Wednesday evening / night seems to fit.
It also involves a lot less complications and a lot fewer people.
The further back you try to push it, the more complicated becomes all the organisation.

If you assume Sunday for example - why not 'dispose' on Monday
Why wait ?

I go along with a day earlier.
The anomalies with creche record and phone record seem strange, no doubt.
Earlier death would have to mean earlier disposal.
I can't see the body left for a few days in full view of the twins.
Then there is the mortis rigor and smell issue.
Died night before and disposed off next morning taken out in blue bag seems more plausible.
Same here, I don't think k&gm, as bad as they are, could cope with the body of their daughter hidden in the apartment for a few days with them and the twins, a short time yes, til the plan was hatched. I also don't think anyone else would agree to store maddie for a few days to help them out either, that's just too far IMO

Why did Rachael and Matt flag up that there was a terrible smell coming from their apartment because their daughter had chronic diarrhea? I just don't understand why they would tell police that? Was it to explain the need to do a lot of washing? Or was it because independent witnesses had possibly noted a smell coming from the apartment, and they needed to provide an explanation for it?

I'm not necessarily suggesting it is suspicious. But obviously if the scent of a dead body was found in the McCann apartment, as the sniffer dogs suggest, then that leads to questioning of everything that the McCanns and their friends have said in their police statements.

While something may have *happened* on Monday evening, Madeleine may not have died until later on in the week. Suppose someone had, accidentally or otherwise, hit her or abused her to overdosed her earlier in the week. There may have been a frantic few days of working out what to do. Suppose she had been in urgent need of medical treatment, but they were reluctant to take her to hospital as it would reveal things that wanted to keep secret.

It is an awful thought, I know. But IF Madeleine had not been given timely access to appropriate treatment, which had in some way contributed to her demise, that alone is a massive reason to cover up and lie. It's negligence of the worst kind.

Again, only purporting a theory. I hope it is not correct. And I do think it is suspicious that the McCanns AND their friends did not wake up the twins that evening to check they were okay. In my opinion that was negligent, given what they claim happened to Madeleine.

by Hicks 30.07.14 18:01

j.rob, the McCann's always seemed to have a Nanny around to look after the children back home. Amanda Coxon was on the scene when Madeleine entered the world, ready I bet to start looking after her.

I can't find any real info on the Nanny who was supposed to go on holiday with them to Portugal. Some rumours say they all had a row, others that the Nanny had to go back to Canada due to sick relatives, either way, there was possibly a child minder at Rothley who did the lions share of looking after the children.
On the holiday Kate was left completely alone, none of the help that always seemed to be on tap with various friends/ child minders. The fact that all the children were put into the crèche most of each day bares witness to the fact that Kate doesn't like to do 24 hour child care.

Kate reminds me of a person I knew years ago. The same characteristics, always softly spoken, calm and quiet on the surface but goodness me, they could lose their temper in a heartbeat, and get in a rage that was frightening. There was never ever sign it was coming. Green straight to red, no warning. Kate has rages we know, smashing beds is not a normal response to the situation they were in imo.

There is a vid where GM is talking about Madeleine as a baby, and how she cried with colic continuously. He goes on to say that Kate looked forward to his return from work but if he was late there would be hell ....... he then changes the subject. Perhaps not those exact words but in the same vein. We nearly got a glimpse into Kate and her temper there. I must try and find it later.

by canada12 30.07.14 18:40

I've had a thought about the possibility of concussion.

Sometimes you can have a concussion, and you can appear perfectly ok for up to 24 hours afterwards, but then, it does happen that people can suddenly die from a concussion, with no advance warning, other than a very bad headache.

I'm wondering if perhaps that's what happened to Madeleine. A combination of events...

1. Madeleine suffers a concussion. It could be from a fall. It could be from an accidental, or a deliberate, blow to the head.
2. Madeleine appears to be ok. But because of circumstances, medical treatment beyond the Tapas 9 is not sought.
3. While Kate and Gerry are away from the apartment, or not otherwise aware, sometime after the concussion, Madeleine dies. The "crying child" that Mrs. Fenn heard could have been, variously, Madeleine crying in pain because of a severe headache, the twins crying because something awful has happened to Madeleine, or Kate crying because she's discovered Madeleine dead.
4. The events following this unfold as we have witnessed. The coverup may be because of the circumstances surrounding Madeleine's original injury, because of what may have been discovered beyond that during an autopsy, the negligence factor in two doctors not seeking medical help for their child, the absence of said parents at the time when death actually occurred, or a combination of all of these factors.

by AndyB 30.07.14 18:46

canada12 wrote:I've had a thought about the possibility of concussion.

Sometimes you can have a concussion, and you can appear perfectly ok for up to 24 hours afterwards, but then, it does happen that people can suddenly die from a concussion, with no advance warning, other than a very bad headache.

I'm wondering if perhaps that's what happened to Madeleine. A combination of events...

1. Madeleine suffers a concussion. It could be from a fall. It could be from an accidental, or a deliberate, blow to the head.
2. Madeleine appears to be ok. But because of circumstances, medical treatment beyond the Tapas 9 is not sought.
3. While Kate and Gerry are away from the apartment, or not otherwise aware, sometime after the concussion, Madeleine dies. The "crying child" that Mrs. Fenn heard could have been, variously, Madeleine crying in pain because of a severe headache, the twins crying because something awful has happened to Madeleine, or Kate crying because she's discovered Madeleine dead.
4. The events following this unfold as we have witnessed. The coverup may be because of the circumstances surrounding Madeleine's original injury, because of what may have been discovered beyond that during an autopsy, the negligence factor in two doctors not seeking medical help for their child, the absence of said parents at the time when death actually occurred, or a combination of all of these factors.

Its an interesting idea, but what it fails to do is explain two of the biggest red flags for me: The remainder of the holiday group going along with it to the extent of agreeing a pact of silence, which is still being maintained, and the involvement of high levels of the establishment at a very early stage, far higher than anyone else would or could expect.

by Hicks 30.07.14 18:58

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During this interview they both feel very uncomfortable at around 15.00 when the interviewer mentions the Wednesday morning and Madeleine asking why they didn't come when she was crying. GM pauses, looks to the heavens, stutters. KM coughs. Madeleine was not alive on the Wednesday morning.

by Justformaddie 30.07.14 19:04

Being doctors they should have known all about concussion so they could've helped her, it wouldn't have been their fault, but, if it was deliberately, then they would need to conceal IMO

by Guest 30.07.14 20:12

Hicks wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

During this interview they both feel very uncomfortable at around 15.00 when the interviewer mentions the Wednesday morning and Madeleine asking why they didn't come when she was crying. GM pauses, looks to the heavens, stutters. KM coughs. Madeleine was not alive on the Wednesday morning.

Aside from the "unprecedented" comment about sleeping in that room on the wednesday night (a sure sign for any Policeman, look at changes to normal behaviour)....

This is total BS from Gerry....

"The next morning (note! thursday morning) she said er.. mummy... I can't remember if it was mummy or daddy now.... why didn't you come when sean and I were crying.... we both looked at each other and though that's odd.. crying... we didn't hear anything... and we had been back checking... and so we asked and said when did you cry.. sometimes when you first put them to bed they cry.. she just dropped it.. as we've said Madeleine is very articulate... and we kind of looked at each other and thought did they wake up or was it the night before when Amelie woke up and Kate had obviously slept in that room... (Kate moves her hand over his at this point, to tell him he's slipped up)... so at the time we weren't even sure they had woken up.. but now... (Gerry looks uncertain, he knows he's said something wrong)..."

Also "when did you cry".... for godsake... according to their own story they were NOT there for 30 minutes at a time!!!

Total BS as I said.

Very interesting.

by Guest 30.07.14 20:29

I guess that begs the question... did Kate sleep in there on Tuesday night as well?

To watch over her because something had happened?

by Hicks 30.07.14 20:38

BlueBag wrote:
Hicks wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

During this interview they both feel very uncomfortable at around 15.00 when the interviewer mentions the Wednesday morning and Madeleine asking why they didn't come when she was crying. GM pauses, looks to the heavens, stutters. KM coughs. Madeleine was not alive on the Wednesday morning.

Aside from the "unprecedented" comment about sleeping in that room on the wednesday night (a sure sign for any Policeman, look at changes to normal behaviour)....

This is total BS from Gerry....

"The next morning (note! thursday morning) she said er.. mummy... I can't remember if it was mummy or daddy now.... why didn't you come when sean and I were crying.... we both looked at each other and though that's odd.. crying... we didn't hear anything... and we had been back checking... and so mwe asked and said when did you cry.. sometimes when you first put them to bed they cry.. she just dropped it.. as we've said Madeleine is very articulate... and we kind of looked at each other and

The whole interview is BS! Kate....' I thought, he's snoring, my*three* lovely kids are *in that room*...How telling.

At 23.00 Kate says..' there is absolutely no way a three year old could open those shutters and window, simple as that. People say, are you sure she didn't wander off? Well, the shutter was up, the window open....I'm not lying about that.

by Guest 30.07.14 21:04

Hicks.. look at Kate when Gerry slips up.

She lets him now and he looks lost for a second.

by Claire25 30.07.14 21:06

That video is so interesting! 2:17 KM shaking her head when saying she's alway wanted kids, then goes on to describe how her want for them was no secret, seems an odd thing to say.
Maybe it was more to do with the fact that they struggled to conceive made them cross and had a point to prove (narcissists)

Then them describing MMs life and after the first five month colic period they just look deflated and not full of loving memories and instead say that she was always awake.. They go on to say alert but I think she really means that she never napped. There's no compassion.

KM struggling to remember the two books

Very insistent that they never row (bruises)

Nonsense reason about why they argued (even though they didn't!)

GM saying YES the shutters could be opened from the outside!

KM about her (not) being able to wonder off "well the shutters were up and the window was open, I'm not lying about THAT"!!!

They didn't call the media, Rachel did

That interviewer knows the score IMO, he's giving them enough rope, nicely nicely dropping in them laughing and the sedation and the dogs, GM looks like he's been punched in the chest with that one.

Never seen that before

by Hicks 30.07.14 21:37

It's on this vid, the part where GM says, if he came home later than six........ Kate cuts in to stop him saying more about how cross she would be at being left alone with crying Madeleine. That bit imo is very telling.
@4.20.

by j.rob 30.07.14 23:12

AndyB wrote:
canada12 wrote:I've had a thought about the possibility of concussion.

Sometimes you can have a concussion, and you can appear perfectly ok for up to 24 hours afterwards, but then, it does happen that people can suddenly die from a concussion, with no advance warning, other than a very bad headache.

I'm wondering if perhaps that's what happened to Madeleine. A combination of events...

1. Madeleine suffers a concussion. It could be from a fall. It could be from an accidental, or a deliberate, blow to the head.
2. Madeleine appears to be ok. But because of circumstances, medical treatment beyond the Tapas 9 is not sought.
3. While Kate and Gerry are away from the apartment, or not otherwise aware, sometime after the concussion, Madeleine dies. The "crying child" that Mrs. Fenn heard could have been, variously, Madeleine crying in pain because of a severe headache, the twins crying because something awful has happened to Madeleine, or Kate crying because she's discovered Madeleine dead.
4. The events following this unfold as we have witnessed. The coverup may be because of the circumstances surrounding Madeleine's original injury, because of what may have been discovered beyond that during an autopsy, the negligence factor in two doctors not seeking medical help for their child, the absence of said parents at the time when death actually occurred, or a combination of all of these factors.
Its an interesting idea, but what it fails to do is explain two of the biggest red flags for me: The remainder of the holiday group going along with it to the extent of agreeing a pact of silence, which is still being maintained, and the involvement of high levels of the establishment at a very early stage, far higher than anyone else would or could expect.

If there had been a plan for a faked abduction of an (alive) Maddie along the lines of the Elizabeth Smart case in the US (I know very different but nevertheless has all the hallmarks of a faked abduction and the family were warmly received by President Bush when there was the miraculous 'reunion') and something went wrong during the week such as accident/abuse/overdosing. Then it is possible that the McCanns and their friends were in a position where it was exceedingly awkward for them to admit to the 'disaster'. Because to have done so would have revealed too big a can of worms. Not just neglect but sedation, for instance. Or even signs of abuse of some kind. Plus if Madeleine did not receive timely and appropriate medical treatment, because no-one wanted to put their hand up and be honest about exactly what had been going on, then that is a shocking indictment of the whole group of doctors.

Plus Gerry had his eye on the 'wider agenda' (whether pre-planned or whether hastily planned) and taking your child to accident and emergency when you have left all your children without a baby-sitter so they are vulnerable to accidents etc does not bring fame, fortune and an ambassador role for Missing Children. Or an audience with the Pope. It risks ruining your career and possibly having your other children taken away.

And didn't at least one of the Tapas say in their police statements that there were plenty of doctors who could have revived a child. Yes - but perhaps they tried and failed. Or perhaps they didn't try because none of them wanted to be held to account for trying and failing or for the consequences and/or evidence of such treatment. Or perhaps Madeleine needed emergency hospital treatment (which is what is required for an over-dose of sedatives, for instance.) But none of them were prepared to put their hands up and admit what had gone wrong.

Doctors can be terrible at admitting mistakes, imo. They will go to extraordinary lengths to deny a mistake or error, particularly if the consequences are disastrous.

Only in my opinion.

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