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Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 27.06.14 23:02

@NickE wrote:
From MET Police Facebook page  clapping

Not wishing to be a wet blanket, but are we certain it takes that long for cadaver scent to develop? I had also always believed this to be the case. However a few months back, another poster – Chatelaine – said that in fact cadaverine was believed to develop in a far shorter time, but that tests were not available to prove this. https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t9178p550-maddie-cops-at-war-daily-star-18-2-14#227978
I don't know how certain she is of this, or whether any other poster has information on the matter, but obviously if correct, it could affect the "window of opportunity".
What doesn't do is explain the lack of DNA or why any burglar would want to walk out of a flat in which they had left no trace of themselves carrying a child's corpse. But that is a separate matter.
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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 27.06.14 23:10

Yes, it's indeed me, Châtelaine :-)

I started research, when I read that Martin Grimes, the dog handler for Eddie and Keela, mentioned that dogs would smell "death" within minutes. Unfortunately, I have so far not been able to find scientific proof. But that's mainly because there have been few documented tests. And ... for these tests, it's not been possible [yet, that I know of] to use scent of very recently [minutes] deceased ...
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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by PeterMac on 27.06.14 23:11

Popcorn wrote:

Not wishing to be a wet blanket, but are we certain it takes that long for cadaver scent to develop? I had also always believed this to be the case. However a few months back, another poster – Chatelaine – said that in fact cadaverine was believed to develop in a far shorter time, but that tests were not available to prove this.

We may be splitting hairs here.
As soon as vital functions cease then the process of decay begins.  
For some time that will not be detectable by anyone, or any dog.

But gradually it does become detectable, first to a dog, and then to a forensic scientist, and then to an average human.
The 90 minutes rule of thumb is the time we have been told it takes fro the time of death before a dog can detect the scent of human cadaverine.

And remember that death is not an event, it is a process.  It takes some time for everything to shut down completely. "Any fule doctor 'noes that"
Which adds time to the "time line" of falling of the back of the sofa, and makes it even less likely that death occurred on 3rd.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 27.06.14 23:14

I agree with you on the timeline, Peter. I still think about May 2 evening/night and May 3 for cooking up another timeline ...

But for me, the possibility for dogs to recognise the scent of a recently deceased remains a possibility.
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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 27.06.14 23:29

The sensitivity of a dogs nose are just starting to be understood, we now know dogs can recognise cancer in an undiagnosed patient.

There are cases that  seem to show it is possible with very ill dying people for dogs to detect the odour of death before death as the bodies vital organs start to shut down. There are many reports of animal behaviour changing a round people just prior to death.  This would of cause not be the case in a sudden or accidental death.

The trouble with all of this is how do you scientifically prove it all. There would be moral implications to a dog and handler in a hospice for a prolonged length of time.

(PM...by stating this doesn't mean I fully convinced of the idea of Madeleine dying in the apartment on the evening of the 3rd)

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Tony Bennett on 28.06.14 0:03

@DurhamGuy1967 wrote:The sensitivity of a dogs nose are just starting to be understood, we now know dogs can recognise cancer in an undiagnosed patient.

There are cases that  seem to show it is possible with very ill dying people for dogs to detect the odour of death before death as the bodies vital organs start to shut down. There are many reports of animal behaviour changing a round people just prior to death.  This would of cause not be the case in a sudden or accidental death.
@ Chatelaine - of course, the longer the corpse has been dead, the more powerful is the odour of the cadaverine, and consequently the more likely it is that a dog would react with a strong alert, say, three montfhs later. 

There is more on this fascinating topic here, though I think it was written quite a few years ago - and the use of detection dogs has developed significantly in recent years:


http://en.engormix.com/Articles/View.aspx?id=421

CADAVER DETECTION

Human detection dogs can further specialize as cadaver dogs. These dogs are used for the detection of drowned, buried, or concealed human remains and are commonly used by law enforcement (Owsley, 1995).

Recent investigations in Canada demonstrated that cadaver dogs can be effective in detecting scattered partial human remains (Komar, 1999). This ability may be used in the detection of human remains following disasters as witnessed in the days and weeks following the tragedy of September 11, 2001.

Within 15 minutes following death, protein synthesis stops in the body and the microorganisms of the gut and skin begin to degrade the body. As a result of this, degradation odors such as putrescine and cadaverine are released. The concentration of these noxious smells will vary depending on the time of death and environmental conditions to which the body is exposed.

Dogs are generally trained to be cadaver dogs using human tissue or soil obtained from beneath a decomposing body. It is essential that dogs are trained to specifically respond to human remains and to not respond to animal remains.

The detection of drowned victims is possible because the skin cells and body oils of the victim will float to the water surface. The canines are generally worked from boats in a grid pattern across the water’s surface. When the dog passes through an area that contains human scent, the dog will alert the handler to that location. The handler will then move the dog back and forth across the scent until the highest concentration of scent is detected.

After taking into account areas of interest and the effect of the environmental and water conditions on the scent movement, efforts to recover the body can begin. In one search in Kentucky, a body was recovered in over 300 ft of water. The canine alerted handlers within 15 ft of where the body was located.

CANCER DETECTION

Williams and Pembroke (1989) reported that malignant tumors emit unique odors that could be detected by dogs. This observation was based on a female patient who sought medical attention after her dog became obsessed with a mole on her leg and eventually tried to bite the mole off. Following biopsy the mole was identified as cancerous.

Since that time chemical markers of melanoma have been reported in the blood and urine (Wakamatsu and Ito, 1990). Researchers at the University of Florida’s Department of Dermatology have subsequently evaluated two dogs trained in the detection of melanoma cells. These dogs demonstrated the ability to detect and accurately locate the presence of the cancerous cells in seven subjects (Pickell et al., 2001).

The potential application of dogs in the diagnosis of cancer is still in debate, particularly since confirmation and treatment would still require surgical procedures. One advantage might be if canine detection provided earlier diagnosis than traditional clinical procedures.

ACCELERANT DETECTION

The first trained accelerant detection dog was reportedly placed into service in 1986 by the Connecticut State Police. These animals are trained to search a fire scene for the presence of common flammable liquids used to start fires. In 1995 over 200 accelerant detection canines were located throughout the US (Tindall and Lothridge, 1995).

The dogs were able to improve evidence selection and arson detection by over 40% in some areas.

The dogs work by moving through the fire scene and alerting the handler to areas with residual flammable materials. Samples of the debris are then collected and sent to a forensic laboratory for confirmation. Problems occur when the detection limits of the analytical equipment are not as sensitive as the dog (Katz and Midkiff, 1997).

EXPLOSIVE DETECTION

Since World War II dogs have been utilized by the military to locate explosives. Unfortunately much of the data describing the detection ability of these dogs is not published in referred journals, but is found in trade publications and government reports.

A field study was conducted in 1975-1976 where dogs averaged over 90% accuracy in the detection of land mines (Nolan and Gravitte, 1977). The Department of Defense has approximately 500 explosive detection canines worldwide with a proficiency requirement of at least 95% (Hannum and Parmeter, 1998).

Currently analytical technologies are being developed to enhance or replace our dependence on explosive detection canines, but at the moment, these instruments still suffer from selectivity problems and the lack of an efficient sampling system. So the detector dogs still represent the fastest, most versatile, reliable, and cost effective real-time explosive detection system available (Furton and Myers, 2001).

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by SchrodingersBody on 28.06.14 7:17

We know that the screaming banshee shill club seem to be working to a burden of proof that is not beyond reasonable doubt, but beyond any doubt whatsoever. Even if the scents picked up by the dogs do develop within sufficient timescales to construct a still technically possible abduction timeline. Which you can bet your house they will jump on. We still have the valid question of how those marker scents have appeared in hire cars, (with somewhat substantiating fluids), on clothing, and on a cuddle cat that was put on a mythical high shelf away from the body. even if they take less time to develop, they still take a "bit of time", did the burglars stop to admire the view, have a fag or brew up ??? You still have the question of how the scents miraculously jump to everything incriminating, and nothing that we know to be innocent.

We know for a fact that the parents are prepared to lie as they see fit, and some of their verbal testimony is not evidence, it's obfuscation. So the only explanation that genuinely fits the empirical evidence is that the parents, and probably some of the Tapas crew, know more than they are prepared to tell the police forces of both countries. The dog markers are evidence, irrefutable evidence (though they are trying), and they tell you that dead bodies were linked with those locations. Those dogs have in my mind confirmed the suspicions I had from day one. One needs look no further than that holidaying party to find the guilty party (whether that's the 9 or any secret ones). Somebody who knew that child knows what happened to her. I don't think theres many sane, informed people that don't accept that very generalised supposition. Proving which one(s) is the issue.
Then it comes down to a case of whether you believe in a conspiracy to protect, or a bandwagon that people jumped on, and police forces that can't sufficiently establish who to prosecute and what with.

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Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

Post by Guest on 28.06.14 9:05

I have only introduced myself before but am an avid reader of this forum and the work done by you all is fantastic as is your knowledge. 

I have 1 experience of the sensitivity of dogs and death... 3 years ago I nursed my mum at home during her final week and her dog displayed very interesting behaviour that made me 100% believe the dogs alerting to cadaver scent in the McCann's appartment.

The dog became more aloof as the week progressed and would often just go and stand at the bedroom door, refusing to go in the day before mum died. On the actual morning mum died at 8am and the dog refused to get out of her bed in the lounge. Once the undertaker had been and removed mum to the funeral parlour she had to be taken for a walk but would only go out of the patio door and through the garden, nothing would persuade her to walk into the hall and out past the ground floor bedroom. It was a week, and after a thorough clean and removal of bedding and and clothing that she would walk through the bungalow and a few weeks until she would enter the bedroom. 

I know she picked up on grief as mum was very well loved, but I am convinced she could smell death and cadaverine. Mum was there about 3 hours before going to the Funeral Parlour.
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