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What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by ultimaThule on 14.03.14 23:00

To the erm junction?  What junction would that be and are the roadsides around Luz sandy - presumably they weren't running on tarmac?

Baywatch?  Kate as Pamela Anderson with MO as David Hasselhof?  O well, I guess that's a tad less mindboggling than the remainder of what's laid out before us.
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Mirage on 14.03.14 23:31

@ultimaThule wrote:To the erm junction?  What junction would that be and are the roadsides around Luz sandy - presumably they weren't running on tarmac?

Baywatch?  Kate as Pamela Anderson with MO as David Hasselhof?  O well, I guess that's a tad less mindboggling than the remainder of what's laid out before us.
I am on my phone otherwise I would quote. They were running on roads UT. He has just stated in the rog he doesn't like running then tries to attenuate the ridiculous jaunt with a joke about liking to run on sand. Because of the habitual lies I wondered if there were a grain of truth - no pun intended. I am wondering about a couple of things. The nature of the liaison and/or the exploration of terrain together.

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by ultimaThule on 15.03.14 1:56

On Wedneday 2 May 2007, a day on which Matthew Oldfield stated 'it rained', having found themselves both dressed in running gear at lunchtime by no apparent pre-arrangement, he and Kate McCann "went out on the road all the way up to the main junction", a 6-8 mile round trip, leaving their respective spouses to feed and care for their children.   

It's to be hoped Dr Gerry from the next door apartment was able to minister to Rachel Oldfield and her baby daughter, while single-handedly coping with his own 3 infants, during the 45 minutes or so their other halves were cavorting around the roads of Luz.

Having got halfway through Oldfield's rog my head hurts, Mirage.  God help anyone who seeks directions from this man or has to rely on him to deliver a succinct prognosis of their erm, medical, erm, condition.  

Quelle coincidence that "the shutter we broke, erm, broke for, the outside shutter by the patio door broke for us on the first day".  It seems Oldfield is a doctor who shares 'the Gerry touch'.  The pair of them should have gone into orthopaedics which requires a certain brute force touch to go at it with the Black & Decker and quick fix cement when replacing worn joints. 

And Oldfield saw himself running on sand a la Baywatch while trying to keep up with Dr Hotlips?  From the weather report it sounds to me more like the jogging racy racing couple were exploring the local terrain on a wet weekend in Widnes.  big grin
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Mirage on 15.03.14 8:37

@ultimaThule wrote:On Wedneday 2 May 2007, a day on which Matthew Oldfield stated 'it rained', having found themselves both dressed in running gear at lunchtime by no apparent pre-arrangement, he and Kate McCann "went out on the road all the way up to the main junction", a 6-8 mile round trip, leaving their respective spouses to feed and care for their children.   

It's to be hoped Dr Gerry from the next door apartment was able to minister to Rachel Oldfield and her baby daughter, while single-handedly coping with his own 3 infants, during the 45 minutes or so their other halves were cavorting around the roads of Luz.

Having got halfway through Oldfield's rog my head hurts, Mirage.  God help anyone who seeks directions from this man or has to rely on him to deliver a succinct prognosis of their erm, medical, erm, condition.  

Quelle coincidence that "the shutter we broke, erm, broke for, the outside shutter by the patio door broke for us on the first day".  It seems Oldfield is a doctor who shares 'the Gerry touch'.  The pair of them should have gone into orthopaedics which requires a certain brute force touch to go at it with the Black & Decker and quick fix cement when replacing worn joints. 

And Oldfield saw himself running on sand a la Baywatch while trying to keep up with Dr Hotlips?  From the weather report it sounds to me more like the jogging racy racing couple were exploring the local terrain on a wet weekend in Widnes.  big grin

As I commented in my OP - you can just see GM waving them off with a cheery "Have a great time you two.".  

You can tell they were great pals, old Gerry and Matt, from the mockumentary. Two Alpha males, sparring and competing for ascendancy. No eye contact. MO has helpfully told us all about GM's competitiveness and focus in the rog: that GM knows what he wants "you've seen them on camera" he tells 4078. And MO knew he had to be focussed too while sparring with this character on camera.

The image of GM reading out that first statement in May 2007 was a study. The way GM pulls his arm away from hapless Kate and drags her off caveman style is a vignette that sticks in the memory.

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 15.03.14 8:44

@Mirage wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:On Wedneday 2 May 2007, a day on which Matthew Oldfield stated 'it rained', having found themselves both dressed in running gear at lunchtime by no apparent pre-arrangement, he and Kate McCann "went out on the road all the way up to the main junction", a 6-8 mile round trip, leaving their respective spouses to feed and care for their children.   

It's to be hoped Dr Gerry from the next door apartment was able to minister to Rachel Oldfield and her baby daughter, while single-handedly coping with his own 3 infants, during the 45 minutes or so their other halves were cavorting around the roads of Luz.

Having got halfway through Oldfield's rog my head hurts, Mirage.  God help anyone who seeks directions from this man or has to rely on him to deliver a succinct prognosis of their erm, medical, erm, condition.  

Quelle coincidence that "the shutter we broke, erm, broke for, the outside shutter by the patio door broke for us on the first day".  It seems Oldfield is a doctor who shares 'the Gerry touch'.  The pair of them should have gone into orthopaedics which requires a certain brute force touch to go at it with the Black & Decker and quick fix cement when replacing worn joints. 

And Oldfield saw himself running on sand a la Baywatch while trying to keep up with Dr Hotlips?  From the weather report it sounds to me more like the jogging racy racing couple were exploring the local terrain on a wet weekend in Widnes.  big grin

As I commented in my OP - you can just see GM waving them off with a cheery "Have a great time you two.".  

You can tell they were great pals, old Gerry and Matt, from the mockumentary. Two Alpha males, sparring and competing for ascendancy. No eye contact. MO has helpfully told us all about GM's competitiveness and focus in the rog: that GM knows what he wants "you've seen them on camera" he tells 4078. And MO knew he had to be focussed too while sparring with this character on camera.

The image of GM reading out that first statement in May 2007 was a study. The way GM pulls his arm away from hapless Kate and drags her off caveman style is a vignette that sticks in the memory.

Tigger, is it only a myth or was GM supporting/backing up MO in a complaint/medical negligence case at the time?
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 15.03.14 9:50

@jeanmonroe wrote:
@Doug D wrote:Poe:
 
‘I think that piece of footage was released for a reason’
 
Did it not help to create the  ‘explanation for the blood’ from M’s cut knees.

No.

"explanation of blood in apartment' came very belatedly from GM (arguido statement "nosebleed") KM "Madeleine "nosebleed"

BUT 'nosebleed' explanation ONLY from McCanns AFTER blood sniffer dog had indicated.

They 'jumped the gun' there, imo.

Because we then have, AFTER the McCanns have cried 'blood found is from nosebleed from Madeleine' (when both made arguido/arguida) a previous occupant of 5A saying he had cut himself 'shaving'

So Mcanns 'claiming' any blood 'found' is from Madeleine 'nosebleed'.

BEFORE the 'shaving' man coming forward!

THEN McCanns saying blood 'found' is from shaving man having previously 'claimed' it was from Madeleine 'nosebleed'!

Weird, huh?

The lawyer for the defence says he wishes the arguido to be ASKED AGAIN if Madeleine bled (WHY would the lawyer wish THAT?) To which he (GM) said it was common for Madeleine to have nosebleeds. He says that he doesn't know if in fact his daughter bled while on holiday in Portugal because he does not want to be influenced by the news in the Press, regarding the detection of human blood in the apartment where his daughter disappeared.
--- At around 22:50 the present interview was ended.
--- He (GM) says nothing further. After reading the document and finding it to be satisfactory, he confirms and signs it.
-------------------------

Processos Vol X
Page 2577

That issue of whether Madeleine had nosebleeds appears also in Amanda Coxon's rog.

"With relation to the question about haemorrhages, I was never present at any episode when Madeleine bled, other than a normal nose bleed when she inserted her finger into her nose and bled.

Nothing different from any other child having a nose bleed".

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMANDA-COXON.htm

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Mirage on 15.03.14 12:09

Further to my other posts about MO and KH 8 mile run (remember he doesn't like running) I find this interesting. Again from his rog where he talks about going out to search in the dark:
------------------------------------------
"And then, erm, after that we did more headless running around, checked on G****, erm, you know, at times we were sort of like crossing each other, there was Dave, and running on my own, and sort of the other way, and I then went out on the coast road a bit further down, erm, I don't know what we thought we could do, but it was just better than being close to them and being there, erm, and so we ran out on that, I think this road unfortunately is called, erm, which road is it, Cemetery Road I think it's called, I seem to remember noticing it because it seemed like a horrible, I think it’s this bit here".
4078 "It covers quite a lot of area".
I quite enjoy it every now and again, but, if it's sort of unusual and you're sort of exploring a bit".
Reply "You're basically out on, I think this is Cemetery Road or one of these roads and it just takes you out down the coast and there's lots of new build sort of resorts going up".

------------------------
Well, wuddyaknow.
I wonder how he knew that was called Cemetery Road in the dark.
He only seems to notice it because it seemed like a horrible ---- a horrible what? .
He knows all about the road taking you out down the coast where there are a lots of new resorts going up.
He can't seem to make up his mind whether he is on his own or with DP. In the end he thinks he's safer in company.
Well now I think I understand a particular remark MO made about going on the run the previous lunchtime with KH (notwithstanding it was a busy time of day what with your wife and child sick and KH with three little tots to feed).
Here is what he said:

"  I quite enjoy it every now and again (running), but, if it's sort of unusual and you're sort of exploring a bit"

Now I don't know why the little story of the drunk lying in the road ("we've all been there") pops into my head at this erm juncture, but it sure as hell does. And not having been born this morning, I ask myself what building was that K and G managed to help this guy into, being as he was likely Portuguese, but in any case incoherent if lying sparko in the road. Makes you wonder don't it? The patience of those two coaxing an address out him and coming over all responsible. A veritable soothing couple entering an unlocked apartment no doubt.

I kinda wish I'd been a detective now. G'is a job SY.

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by ultimaThule on 15.03.14 12:12

dantezebu wrote:
@Mirage wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:On Wedneday 2 May 2007, a day on which Matthew Oldfield stated 'it rained', having found themselves both dressed in running gear at lunchtime by no apparent pre-arrangement, he and Kate McCann "went out on the road all the way up to the main junction", a 6-8 mile round trip, leaving their respective spouses to feed and care for their children.   

It's to be hoped Dr Gerry from the next door apartment was able to minister to Rachel Oldfield and her baby daughter, while single-handedly coping with his own 3 infants, during the 45 minutes or so their other halves were cavorting around the roads of Luz.

Having got halfway through Oldfield's rog my head hurts, Mirage.  God help anyone who seeks directions from this man or has to rely on him to deliver a succinct prognosis of their erm, medical, erm, condition.  

Quelle coincidence that "the shutter we broke, erm, broke for, the outside shutter by the patio door broke for us on the first day".  It seems Oldfield is a doctor who shares 'the Gerry touch'.  The pair of them should have gone into orthopaedics which requires a certain brute force touch to go at it with the Black & Decker and quick fix cement when replacing worn joints. 

And Oldfield saw himself running on sand a la Baywatch while trying to keep up with Dr Hotlips?  From the weather report it sounds to me more like the jogging racy racing couple were exploring the local terrain on a wet weekend in Widnes.  big grin

As I commented in my OP - you can just see GM waving them off with a cheery "Have a great time you two.".  

You can tell they were great pals, old Gerry and Matt, from the mockumentary. Two Alpha males, sparring and competing for ascendancy. No eye contact. MO has helpfully told us all about GM's competitiveness and focus in the rog: that GM knows what he wants "you've seen them on camera" he tells 4078. And MO knew he had to be focussed too while sparring with this character on camera.

The image of GM reading out that first statement in May 2007 was a study. The way GM pulls his arm away from hapless Kate and drags her off caveman style is a vignette that sticks in the memory.

Tigger, is it only a myth or was GM supporting/backing up MO in a complaint/medical negligence case at the time?
In May 2007 MO continued to be embroiled in a medical negligence case which related to a patient he had treated when working in Leicester prior to his move south at the end of 2003. 

The length of time involved suggests this may have been a matter which was before the courts.  As far as I'm aware it's not known in whether GM was directly implicated in this case, but it may have been that he acted as character witness or similar for MO.
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by suzyjohnson on 15.03.14 15:09

MO "And then, erm, after that we did more headless running around, ................. erm, you know, at times we were sort of like crossing each other, there was Dave, and running on my own, and sort of the other way, and I then went out on the coast road a bit further down ......''


Did anybody run in the direction of Tannerman?

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 15.03.14 16:11

And where was that veritable champion of jogging: the father of the missing child?
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by ultimaThule on 15.03.14 16:44

According to Dr Oldfield his 8 mile horizontal jog with Dr Hotlips to the, erm, junction, took place at lunchtime while, presumably, Dr Gerry busied himself with preparing a meal for his 3 young children and ministered to an unwell Rachael Oldfield in the next door apartment. 

However, according to Dr Hotlips, as they ran along the promenade a small dog attacked her right calf, neverthless, she carried on as coolly as she could before returning in time to pick up the children with Gerry, have lunch in the apartment, and then take them to the play area for an hour before walking them to their clubs, after which the devoted couple had tennis lessons in their respective groups - her lesson taking place after his. 

"After that it was the usual routine: tea with the children, playtime, bathtime, milk, stories, kds' bedrime, get ready, Tapas at 8.30pm."
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 15.03.14 21:00

Has anyone ever figured out why Kate said the dog bit her while on that particular run?
Given some of MO strange comments about the erm junction and exploring and cemetery road,did someone see her with blood on her and she wanted to get her excuses in first?
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 15.03.14 21:04

Bellisa wrote:Has anyone ever figured out why Kate said the dog bit her while on that particular run?
Given some of MO strange comments about the erm junction and exploring and cemetery road,did someone see her with blood on her and she wanted to get her excuses in first?
Because a bloody footprint was found matching her trainers?

Am I mistaken, is this a forum-myth or is this in the PJ files? I forget
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What direction is Cemetery Road in

Post by worriedmum on 15.03.14 21:14

Bellisa wrote:Has anyone ever figured out why Kate said the dog bit her while on that particular run?
Given some of MO strange comments about the erm junction and exploring and cemetery road,did someone see her with blood on her and she wanted to get her excuses in first?
Looking at a map, cemetery road looks to me like it is in a different  direction to the beach and the cliffs?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.0874359,-8.7297297,17z

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 15.03.14 21:19

@worriedmum wrote:
Bellisa wrote:Has anyone ever figured out why Kate said the dog bit her while on that particular run?
Given some of MO strange comments about the erm junction and exploring and cemetery road,did someone see her with blood on her and she wanted to get her excuses in first?
Looking at a map, cemetery road looks to me like it is in a different  direction to the beach and the cliffs?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.0874359,-8.7297297,17z
Makes sense: if you spent time reconnoitering Cemetery Road and its opportunities to hide a dead child, wouldn't you rather prefer directing the casual and not so casual observer away from there to, lets say, the beach or the cliffs?

So maybe those dogs were at the cemetery rather than on the beach or the cliff? 

Like those hounds at the gates of Hades?
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 15.03.14 21:30

I'll try to find that in the files,thanks portia.

Will have a look at your map too worriedmum,definitely not like the tapas group to cause deliberate confusion !
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by PeterMac on 15.03.14 21:56

@Portia wrote:Like those hounds at the gates of Hades?
There was only one.
With three heads, (One for Sea Bass, one for Rotting meat, and one for nappies ?)
Cerberus was his name.
And the three heads meant he never slept, and was able to ensure no one ever escaped escaping from Hades.

Rather like Keela and Eddie are ensuring that the McCanns are never able to escape from their own person Hades.

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by PeterMac on 15.03.14 22:00

@worriedmum wrote:
Bellisa wrote:Has anyone ever figured out why Kate said the dog bit her while on that particular run?
Given some of MO strange comments about the erm junction and exploring and cemetery road,did someone see her with blood on her and she wanted to get her excuses in first?
Looking at a map, cemetery road looks to me like it is in a different  direction to the beach and the cliffs?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.0874359,-8.7297297,17z

That is a dreadful map, please don't rely on it. It is highly misleading.

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by whmon on 15.03.14 22:50

One thing that I do believe is true is that KM wrote the bewk. It has been suggested before that a ghost writer was involved but the bewk is too badly written for a professional to have been involved. Also of course, KM wanted her 'version of the truth' to be published. I think the real reason for the bewk was that it was a marvellous opportunity to let slip various suggestions that form many of the 'truths' that we need to examine.

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 15.03.14 23:04

Glad to know the map is no use thanks,another of clarries inventions.
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by tigger on 16.03.14 7:10

@Hobs wrote:Unfortunately many cops believe the subject/ suspect is lying from the get go and thus doesn't actually listen to what is said.

The most common phrase i hear is they were lying cos their lips were moving.

The problem is, is this.
if you assume the subject is lying from the get go then you miss all the true lies, the lying by ommission, the  dropped pronoun, even the faked reality.
You miss all the red flags.

However, if you assume the subject is telling the truth about everything, then anything they say that is unexpected, the dropped pronoun, the temporal lacuna, the faked reality will stand out.
Once it stands out you can then ask for clarification and thus we get to the truth.

The perfect way to start any interview is what happened?

Ince they have done speaking, the next vital question must be, what happened next.

never ask compound questions since they can then pick and choose what to answer and you won't know what they were answering to.

Ask single questions

ask open ended questions, this allows the subject to pick and choose where to start.
Where they start is what is important to them.

Don't introduce new language, let the subject do that, it is a great way to learn what is on their maind at that moment, what is important to them.

If they introduce new language you can then use it in a question.

Don't give them answers via the question such as you did such and such at 9pm, they will answer yes or no even if it isn't the truth.

make lots of notes and ask for clarification, repeat questions phrased differently to see what, if anything changes.
Ask them say what happened backwards or at different starting points.

get them to write their statement down allowing one line through a word/phrase if they make a mistake so it can still be read ( it is amazing what can be learned from a crossed out word or phrase)

ask why they crossed something out.

most of all LISTEN to what they are actually saying, not what you think they are saying.

I use statement analysis daily when listening to news reading anything online , even tv ads are a good way to tune your ears in.

the downside is once learned it cannot be unlearned and never use it on your family and friends if you want to keep them (unless it is vitally important)

'No! It doesn't make you look fat!'
'Of course we'll help you weed the garden/ paint the walls/clear up, it's no trouble!'
'That dress was twohundred pounds? Ir really suits you, I meant that electric pink doesn" t suit everybody...'

Thanks for those rules Hobs, I've copied them  roses 

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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 16.03.14 8:39

Bellisa wrote:Glad to know the map is no use thanks,another of clarries inventions.

I don't think you can blame the odious one for that. They give those away for free in the resorts there.
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by joyce1938 on 16.03.14 9:30

I was under impression that the pack of dogs and the bite was running up the hill to top on cliffs ,the run that seemed to be used most? not along a road ? maybe 2 occasions ?  joyce1938
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Guest on 16.03.14 10:12

Re things we have accepted as true, etc...Just thinking about some of the things that I have accepted but that have nonetheless left a bit of a 'what a shame/if only' feeling. thinking  Just points really. May or may not be worth a second thought.

That there were no immediately post-birth photograph of her with her parents
That there was no footage of the children arriving at the holiday venue to go with the leaving for holiday footage
That there was no footage of inside the holiday apartment and kids all playing together for posterity
That Madeleine was visible only from the back when boarding the flight; face not visible
That the plane itself wasn't clear enough to identify
That her image was blurred on the mobile phone footage

Be interested to read what similar 'moments' others have had.
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Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

Post by Mirage on 16.03.14 12:36

Re: What do we accept as true (that we should perhaps reconsider)?

It is impossible to accept as true anything said by the Tapas 9. They are all variously omitting, adding, distorting and outright lying. And what is worse, these blatant lies have gone unchallenged for almost seven years.

As some may know I have been trawling through Matthew Oldfield's rogatory. I have now started to look more closely at Rachael Mampilly's rogatory.
First thing that I was looking for was a reference to her husband going on a run with KH so I pricked my ears up when the interview turned to the events of Wednesday 2nd May. Here's what she says:

Reply 'Racquets and stuff, yeah, yeah we took our racquets, nobody else did, erm then we booked a private lesson, erm ( erms have the affect of putting me on red alert with this lot) which we supposed to have on the Wednesday but I was ill on the Tuesday night, erm (red alert) so on Wednesday, actually on Wednesday it was raining anyway, so I think all, all the tennis lessons and everything were cancelled, erm (red alert) but ]so I was ill so, I was in bed'.

1578 'And when you say we, you're referring to yourself and Matthew''
 Oh look 1578 is interested in the booked tennis lesson. Is he about to ask what Matthew was doing being at a loose end, what with cancelled tennis, ill Rachael, ill daughter although RM fails to mention that. Thank goodness for MO sometimes or you would never know And what about the child care arrangements while she lies ill in bed? Incurious GIERC doesn't ask. Does incurious GIERC know MO has gawn off running in the rain with KH because they both found themselves dressed for running. And did everyone agree a busy lunchtime with her ill and alone with the sick child plus Gerry and his 3 little tots to feed and get back to kids' clubs seemed the ideal time for the two of them to go running together, even though MO didn't like running. He doesn't ask her so we shall never know

Reply 'Yes, yeah, erm so yeah Wednesday was slightly different I suppose (now dive in there girl and tell that GIERC ) cos it rained and things were off, (including MO - with KH, exploring. Tell him, just tell him) although by the afternoon it had cleared up, erm (red alert. Fast forward to that night) and so on Wednesday night I didn't go to dinner cos I'd thrown up the night before, you know ( 24 hours ago.) it was just another weird thing about the holiday (another weird thing, Cue incurious GIERC to ask what else she had found weird on holiday. As you were, he doesn't bite.) cos I'm never ill, (A medical first. And on a weird holiday) neither is Matt, (it's getting weirder than GIERC imagined possible. Help her out man she's screaming to let something out.) as long as I've known him I've never known him be sick, erm'. ( Get in there GIERC. Ask her if she knows what made them both sick)

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