New Heights of insanity - Express

tigger wrote:Jeremy Wilkins:
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm

20.45 - 21.15 Jeremy Wilkins meets Gerry. 

21.20 chef AEGFP Tapas hears ‘clamour’ .

21.40 he leaves Tapas restaurant - where until moments before he’d seen the table occupied now empty. 

21.30 to 21.40. BJJW hears from Dutch owner of Atlantico restaurant. 
He then went to 5a (presumably) at 21.45 - 21.50 . 

21.30 to 22.00 receptionist OC HJSL contacted by Tapas rest. He immediately contacted GNR in Lagos. After this father and John Hill arrived and he phoned GNR again. 

21.45.Waiter RAEDLO saw no one at the tapas table. 
Fitness instructor/waiter JRS between 21.30 and 22.00 spoke to DW . 

21.55 Smith family see man and child approx.

21.58 Exact time. MMMdS leaves apt. at (exact time) to car park block 6. Passing block 5 saw no movement of people and no vehicle except small car - grey in colour close to the window of 5a. Saw a light in the apartment above 5a and in 5a. Nothing abnormal. 

22.00 (after) RRSB and wife on veranda in apt. Heard noises . GM seen and spoken to. Both went down and helped search. 

22.00 to 22.30 Waiter JJMB beween in kitchen, alerted that a guest entered the restaurant screaming and entire group left.

Estelle wrote:

tigger wrote:Jeremy Wilkins:
As stated in my original deposition, I believe that I left the apartment around 20h30. I calculate that I met Gerry on the road between 20h45 and 21h15. I am aware of the importance of this hour and am also aware that the media announced our meeting time as 21h05. Even if this were correct, I have no idea from where such information originated. It is not possible to give you a more exact time.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm

20.45 - 21.15 Jeremy Wilkins meets Gerry. 

21.20 chef AEGFP Tapas hears ‘clamour’ .

21.40 he leaves Tapas restaurant - where until moments before he’d seen the table occupied now empty. 

21.30 to 21.40. BJJW hears from Dutch owner of Atlantico restaurant. 
He then went to 5a (presumably) at 21.45 - 21.50 . 

21.30 to 22.00 receptionist OC HJSL contacted by Tapas rest. He immediately contacted GNR in Lagos. After this father and John Hill arrived and he phoned GNR again. 

21.45.Waiter RAEDLO saw no one at the tapas table. 
Fitness instructor/waiter JRS between 21.30 and 22.00 spoke to DW . 

21.55 Smith family see man and child approx.

21.58 Exact time. MMMdS leaves apt. at (exact time) to car park block 6. Passing block 5 saw no movement of people and no vehicle except small car - grey in colour close to the window of 5a. Saw a light in the apartment above 5a and in 5a. Nothing abnormal. 

22.00 (after) RRSB and wife on veranda in apt. Heard noises . GM seen and spoken to. Both went down and helped search. 

22.00 to 22.30 Waiter JJMB beween in kitchen, alerted that a guest entered the restaurant screaming and entire group left.

Thanks, Tigger, I had not seen this before.

DurhamGuy1967 wrote:It seems to me there are 2 incompatible time lines. 
1. The Tapas 9 statements and the sticker book
2. The independant witnesses at the Tapas bar area

sonic72 wrote:

Sockpuppet wrote:

Okeydokey wrote:I agree - if you believe the Smithman sighting is of GMcC you have to also believe that GMcC took this risk despite having bumped into JW about 40 mins earlier.  Surely that would have made you feel that this was a v. high risk strategy! How could you be sure you wouldn't bump into him again, or some other holiday acquaintance?

But less high risk than being found with a dead daughter in apartment 5A.

There was no risk of being found with a dead daughter in apartment 5A. They are not exactly going to report her missing whilst she is still dead in the apartment! So they would not have been found with a dead child in the apartment, unless someone reported it.

StraightThinking wrote:But if they hadn't raised the alarm, nobody would have found a dead M in 5a anyway (unless she was initially missing, alarm raised, then found dead minutes later)

If she was initally found dead, she could just have been taken away and the alarm raised hours later

So I don't think that happened

StraightThinking wrote:But if they hadn't raised the alarm, nobody would have found a dead M in 5a anyway (unless she was initially missing, alarm raised, then found dead minutes later)

If she was initally found dead, she could just have been taken away and the alarm raised hours later

So I don't think that happened

GPD wrote:

sonic72 wrote:

Sockpuppet wrote:

Okeydokey wrote:I agree - if you believe the Smithman sighting is of GMcC you have to also believe that GMcC took this risk despite having bumped into JW about 40 mins earlier.  Surely that would have made you feel that this was a v. high risk strategy! How could you be sure you wouldn't bump into him again, or some other holiday acquaintance?

But less high risk than being found with a dead daughter in apartment 5A.

There was no risk of being found with a dead daughter in apartment 5A. They are not exactly going to report her missing whilst she is still dead in the apartment! So they would not have been found with a dead child in the apartment, unless someone reported it.

I think that's Sockpuppet's point sonic. Weighing up the risks in the short time available to action a plan, it was better to risk being seen than to risk the latter.

Sockpuppet wrote:

GPD wrote:

sonic72 wrote:

Sockpuppet wrote:

Okeydokey wrote:I agree - if you believe the Smithman sighting is of GMcC you have to also believe that GMcC took this risk despite having bumped into JW about 40 mins earlier.  Surely that would have made you feel that this was a v. high risk strategy! How could you be sure you wouldn't bump into him again, or some other holiday acquaintance?

But less high risk than being found with a dead daughter in apartment 5A.

There was no risk of being found with a dead daughter in apartment 5A. They are not exactly going to report her missing whilst she is still dead in the apartment! So they would not have been found with a dead child in the apartment, unless someone reported it.

I think that's Sockpuppet's point sonic. Weighing up the risks in the short time available to action a plan, it was better to risk being seen than to risk the latter.

Yes, indeed - and if you read the rogatory interview of J.R.Salcedas, it seems that a search was already underway and people outside of the Tapas group were aware *before* he heard a woman scream.  This could indicate that Madeleine was found at this point, leaving GM two choices - to face the law and the media (something a narcissist would avoid at all cost), or to hide the body.

Although I have now spoken to Tony privately about his reasons to disbelieve Smith, I have concluded that I am still of the same opinion that I held previously and I totally agree that the entire episode was carried out in a state of panic, leaving no time to weigh up the pro's and cons of the situation.

Furthermore, in my opinion, the McCanns would have been forensically aware re: cadaver scent and probably wanted to get Madeleine out of the apartment as quickly as possible to avoid this (didn't work though) and I imagine they just wanted to get her as far away from the apartment (and of course their other children) as soon as they could.

This is why I also believe that whatever happened was on the 3rd rather than before, because if they did have time to plan it more carefully, it would not have been the shambles that it turned out to be, and doubtless they would have had time to jemmy the shutters and leave a false trail, but they didn't have time for that in my opinion.

GPD wrote:
This is why I also believe that whatever happened was on the 3rd rather than before, because if they did have time to plan it more carefully, it would not have been the shambles that it turned out to be, and doubtless they would have had time to jemmy the shutters and leave a false trail, but they didn't have time for that in my opinion.

PeterMac wrote:

GPD wrote:
This is why I also believe that whatever happened was on the 3rd rather than before, because if they did have time to plan it more carefully, it would not have been the shambles that it turned out to be, and doubtless they would have had time to jemmy the shutters and leave a false trail, but they didn't have time for that in my opinion.

For me the actions took place on 3rd, but the death probably during the evening / night of 2nd / 3rd, with the body, stiff, cold and leaking fluids and found behind the sofa on 3rd.
Hence all the frantic washing of random garments for "tea stains" - ( why bother when you are going home in 2 days anyway.)  
Gerry taking the afternoon off tennis for his ruptured Achilles tendon, which miraculously healed before the evening session
Dodgy photo
Even more dodgy explanations of Madeleine being tired and having to go to bed before anyone else saw her
Tapas group making themselves scarce and ALL going to the Paraiso
and so on

notlongnow wrote:Wondering if there is any milage that someone was paid to take maddies body away during the evening?

GPD wrote:Portugal itself does not actually exist.

PeterMac wrote:

GPD wrote:
This is why I also believe that whatever happened was on the 3rd rather than before, because if they did have time to plan it more carefully, it would not have been the shambles that it turned out to be, and doubtless they would have had time to jemmy the shutters and leave a false trail, but they didn't have time for that in my opinion.

For me the actions took place on 3rd, but the death probably during the evening / night of 2nd / 3rd, with the body, stiff, cold and leaking fluids and found behind the sofa on 3rd.
Hence all the frantic washing of random garments for "tea stains" - ( why bother when you are going home in 2 days anyway.)  
Gerry taking the afternoon off tennis for his ruptured Achilles tendon, which miraculously healed before the evening session
Dodgy photo
Even more dodgy explanations of Madeleine being tired and having to go to bed before anyone else saw her
Tapas group making themselves scarce and ALL going to the Paraiso
and so on

bristow wrote:

PeterMac wrote:

GPD wrote:
This is why I also believe that whatever happened was on the 3rd rather than before, because if they did have time to plan it more carefully, it would not have been the shambles that it turned out to be, and doubtless they would have had time to jemmy the shutters and leave a false trail, but they didn't have time for that in my opinion.

For me the actions took place on 3rd, but the death probably during the evening / night of 2nd / 3rd, with the body, stiff, cold and leaking fluids and found behind the sofa on 3rd.
Hence all the frantic washing of random garments for "tea stains" - ( why bother when you are going home in 2 days anyway.)  
Gerry taking the afternoon off tennis for his ruptured Achilles tendon, which miraculously healed before the evening session
Dodgy photo
Even more dodgy explanations of Madeleine being tired and having to go to bed before anyone else saw her
Tapas group making themselves scarce and ALL going to the Paraiso
and so on

I tend to agree with your thoughts PeterMac but the only thing I just don't understand is how anyone could act normally and go to dinner that evening, surely it is beyond most people, if you had found your child dead you would be in an utter state, to the point of being mad and inconsolable with grief?

PeterMac wrote:

GPD wrote:
This is why I also believe that whatever happened was on the 3rd rather than before, because if they did have time to plan it more carefully, it would not have been the shambles that it turned out to be, and doubtless they would have had time to jemmy the shutters and leave a false trail, but they didn't have time for that in my opinion.

For me the actions took place on 3rd, but the death probably during the evening / night of 2nd / 3rd, with the body, stiff, cold and leaking fluids and found behind the sofa on 3rd.
Hence all the frantic washing of random garments for "tea stains" - ( why bother when you are going home in 2 days anyway.)  
Even more dodgy explanations of Madeleine being tired and having to go to bed before anyone else saw her
Tapas group making themselves scarce and ALL going to the Paraiso
and so on

Sockpuppet wrote:

notlongnow wrote:Wondering if there is any milage that someone was paid to take maddies body away during the evening?

There would be mileage in it if there was any evidence that pointed in that direction.  Is there any?

Okeydokey wrote:

sonic72 wrote:I don't think people are claiming the Smith's are lying, just that the person they saw might not have much relevance.

Personally I think Gerry and co would not have carried a dead child through the streets, he/they would have concealed her in something, perhaps the blue bag that has been talked about.

It's too high risk if you are trying to claim the child was abducted.

This is why I personally feel Smithman is no relevance to this in the grand scheme of things..

Any thoughts?

I agree - if you believe the Smithman sighting is of GMcC you have to also believe that GMcC took this risk despite having bumped into JW about 40 mins earlier.  Surely that would have made you feel that this was a v. high risk strategy! How could you be sure you wouldn't bump into him again, or some other holiday acquaintance?

galena wrote:

Okeydokey wrote:

sonic72 wrote:I don't think people are claiming the Smith's are lying, just that the person they saw might not have much relevance.

Personally I think Gerry and co would not have carried a dead child through the streets, he/they would have concealed her in something, perhaps the blue bag that has been talked about.

It's too high risk if you are trying to claim the child was abducted.

This is why I personally feel Smithman is no relevance to this in the grand scheme of things..

Any thoughts?

I agree - if you believe the Smithman sighting is of GMcC you have to also believe that GMcC took this risk despite having bumped into JW about 40 mins earlier.  Surely that would have made you feel that this was a v. high risk strategy! How could you be sure you wouldn't bump into him again, or some other holiday acquaintance?

I have to agree that with you on this and am kind of wondering what could have made Gerry take such a high risk strategy of carrying a child's body around PDL, without even the precaution of placing it in a bag of some sort?  Some argue that it would seem more natural to carry a 'sleeping' child but if he had to hide the body when he met with JW and then get JT to invent 'bundleman' to cover his encounter with the Smiths clearly it was a strategy which would only work if he met nobody - which seems unlikely in the circumstances. (And it could have been worse, the Smiths might have gone to the PJ the very next day with the sighting when their memories would have been fresh).

People are arguing that an abductor would never have taken the risk of carrying a child like that - so why would GM take that risk either?

I wouldn't go as far as Tony in saying that the story is made up but I don't feel convinced enough of its veracity to incorporate it into any theories.  If it is true, I can only say that the whole idea of a Tapas conspiracy must be wrong and that Kate and Gerry must have acted alone.  Tannerman very likely did exist and JT really believed that she had seen the abductor. I simply can't believe that a group of highly intelligent professional people wouldn't be able to come up with a better way of body disposal than the father carrying the child in pyjamas throughout a resort from 21.30 - 2200 hrs at a time when people were likely to still be around.