Why didn't you come last night...?

Merrymo has darn gone done it again!

Blown her own argument out of the water with HER OWN WORDS!

I refer to an earlier post on an earlier thread where she explained why it had to be abduction not a T9 cover-up -"because maybe one person could carry it off, not two or more" and YET: she thinks that a paedophile 'GANG' watched this apartment [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] (sorry!) for months til a suitable child comes along' By definition - a 'gang' is more than two people!

Quite apart from that, paedophile child-traffiking rings DO NOT target holiday resorts! There are easier, instant targets on the streets in inner-cities everywhere.

There we have it. Merrymo can only, will only see one side and like the McCanns completely contradicts her own reasoning.

You cannot fit a non-event into a period of time. You just can't make the 'non-event' fit the known facts.

Tbh, I feel like this...[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And, to be really, really honest Merrymo - don't hurry back. My blood pressure won't miss you...

Merrymo is already back online Rainbow-Fairy (she loves us really) so sit down with a nice cup of tea and think of your blood pressure!

tigger wrote:Merrymo wrote:

An abduction from this particular apartment may have been planned for months. I don't think it is beyond the wit of seasoned criminals to get hold of an apartment key maybe even months beforehand in readiness. .. It's not like a private house key. There is probably more than one key, used by various people going in and out - cleaners, maintenance people etc. Apartment keys do get lost and mislaid - and could be stolen or 'borrowed' and copied. Unless it can be proved that it is impossible for an apartment key go missing at this complex then it has to remain a viable possibility IMO.

According to previous tenants, the cleaners had a key, which opened the door even when their own key was left in the locked door on the inside.
unquote

I didn't want to join this 'discussion' because Merrymo might as well be speaking Klingon. However, the above quote was too good.

I am now envisaging this gang of paedophiles holed up in PdL with phone calls to their 'clients' who are waiting for a suitable child.
'So you got the key? Who's in there now? '
'It's-a no good boss, them's wasn't leaving their kids alone, bin watching all night' (picture of unsavory villain as described by JT)
'Damn! We're waiting for a four year old photogenic toddler with blonde hair - can't wait forever you know .. first no kids at all, just geriatrics, then five times running idiot parents who never left their kids and sat watching telly all night, what's this lot like?'
'Well, we've been watching 5a for five months - lucky no-one's noticed so far what with us hanging around the parking lot - but this lot is leaving them kids alone every night - we've struck lucky.'
'But you're in with a chance now you've got a key?'
'This lot are leaving the patio doors open - we tried the front door last night but it made such a racket that the kid woke up and started bawling'.
'So?'
'We'se a gonna try again tonight boss, still with the key but we're gonna leave the window open so they don't know we got the key.'
'What if she starts bawling again?'
'Got that covered boss, gonna read her bedtime story and give her extra dose of Calpol, then pick her up, open the window and shutters and get out - not using the car cos of people reading number plates...'
'In the dark?'
'Can't be too careful boss .... my mate Ovoid isa gonna take her down the road - he's a strong guy can carry her on the tips of his fingers.....

I got carried away here - my apologies if this is offensive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Fantastic post tigger!

the satire shows the ridiculousness of the abduction scenario very well.



Isn't it sad that Merrymo thought she'd have a go back and just showed herself up instead?!? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Jean wrote:Merrymo is already back online Rainbow-Fairy (she loves us really) so sit down with a nice cup of tea and think of your blood pressure!

ALREADY??? Well come on then Merrymo. Do tell us some more funnies [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I still want Merrymo to answer my questions please or I will stamp and shout and scweam and. Scweam. I may write a bewk about this thread and call it the cotnuing search. To educate Merrymo, and I will give lots of interviews whilst looking doefully sad at the camera and tell the naughty people on the.internet that I really am a good person and how was any of it.my fault.

Great satire tigger, poor response Merrymo, why, because. I said so, you do believe.me don't you?

Merrymo wrote
An abduction from this particular apartment may have been planned for months. I don't think it is beyond the wit of seasoned criminals to get hold of an apartment key maybe even months beforehand in readiness. .. It's not like a private house key. There is probably more than one key, used by various people going in and out - cleaners, maintenance people etc. Apartment keys do get lost and mislaid - and could be stolen or 'borrowed' and copied. Unless it can be proved that it is impossible for an apartment key go missing at this complex then it has to remain a viable possibility IMO.

According to previous tenants, the cleaners had a key, which opened the door even when their own key was left in the locked door on the inside.

Bloody hell I've heard it all now.

So these seasonal criminals with wit and ingenuity to get hold of key got only key to 5A? And they laid waiting where ?
No one has reported suspicious loiterers. Dont tell me they were hiding in the bush in front 5A for months and no one noticed them (must be ghostly invisible) until some moroons bring children to holiday and leave them alone?
And dont tell me they were prepared to wait indefinitely until the right type of child is brought to 5A that they prepared the key in advance and laid waiting?

And you were saying? errr these are a bunch of seasonal criminals with wit who copied every key in the resort but laid in wait only for occupants of 5A. OH......hmmm.only key to 5A? Oh so the cleaners were only careless with 5A key? What is it ? Have you made up your mind merrymole?

And, err.......you want us to believe these criminals have WIT and they are SEASONAL! Bloody hell be faster to snatch one anyhow from a busy place even if you're a complete dipstick with brain size of an eyelash.

Come on then...any more bright idea how to abduct a child to order from your mud brain? Sorry no disrespect intended. Do us something clever. We all want to know how exactly she was abducted.

anil39200 wrote:I still want Merrymo to answer my questions please or I will stamp and shout and scweam and. Scweam. I may write a bewk about this thread and call it the cotnuing search. To educate Merrymo, and I will give lots of interviews whilst looking doefully sad at the camera and tell the naughty people on the.internet that I really am a good person and how was any of it.my fault.

Great satire tigger, poor response Merrymo, why, because. I said so, you do believe.me don't you?

Never mind the doefully sad eyes...just watch what comes out of the letterbox mouth! junks!

An abduction from this particular apartment may have been planned for months.

These criminals who planned this abduction for so long, and then Waited and waited for months maybe for the right time, and the right family to come along and leave their children unsupervised. But then, after all this planning decided to take a child and have a walkabout round the streets of PDL. Good grief, there was a car park right next to the apartment, why didn't they have a car waiting. You would think being such clever, cunning people as to have this all planned, that would be the first thing they would think of. Oh I expect they did, the abductor decided to walk, and the accomplice drove off in the car

candyfloss wrote:An abduction from this particular apartment may have been planned for months.

These criminals who planned this abduction for so long, and then Waited and waited for months maybe for the right time, and the right family to come along and leave their children unsupervised. But then, after all this planning decided to take a child and have a walkabout round the streets of PDL. Good grief, there was a car park right next to the apartment, why didn't they have a car waiting. You would think being such clever, cunning people as to have this all planned, that would be the first thing they would think of. Oh I expect they did, the abductor decided to walk, and the accomplice drove off in the car

And they waited and waited and waited' cos they had only one key to the entire resort! And then despite the key they stupidly left the window and shutter open knowing the next adult is going to come along and check! ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG

Where is merrymole hiding. We are waiting patiently for answers.

Hiding in a poorly lit mcalley, flooded with Orange light, wearing pink pyjamas, somewhere in rural mcleicestershire, eagerly awaiting the revised book of "truth" for more of that evidence .Avidly taking phone instructions from mctowers and then deleting them and eating the mcphone before returning to taunt us again with blood pressure raising diatribes of mcnothingness , because the told her so, so. It must be true. This post will self destruct in 5 mcseconds, jrmmie the Windows and leave them up, mcwhoosh mcclunk its gone. So,sadly has my Mind with listening to the disneyesque apologists such as merrymo. It had to happen, back on the need I guess. Thanks Doc, oh no its a McDoc, Help me pleeeeease.

Oh, ok. So let's for one minute disregard the fact that 'professional' paedophile gangs DO NOT target holiday camps.
So, our abductors, who had been watching patiently for months, faithfully waiting for that 'perfect' child with a suitably neglectful family (amazing they had to wait months - didn't the McCanns state this is normal behaviour for Brits?) then went on to watch some more!
They had SUNDAY, then MONDAY, TUESDAY andWEDNESDAY to strike but no - we are expected to believe they not only watch the neglectful family for four days, they then choose THURSDAY. The night the T9 stepped up patrol, so much so they were crossing each other on the way back. They chose THAT night?
FGS - wake UP and smell the Kenco Merrymo, your 'arguments' are getting more and more ridiculous by the day...

anil39200 wrote:Hiding in a poorly lit mcalley, flooded with Orange light, wearing pink pyjamas, somewhere in rural mcleicestershire, eagerly awaiting the revised book of "truth" for more of that evidence .Avidly taking phone instructions from mctowers and then deleting them and eating the mcphone before returning to taunt us again with blood pressure raising diatribes of mcnothingness , because the told her so, so. It must be true. This post will self destruct in 5 mcseconds, jrmmie the Windows and leave them up, mcwhoosh mcclunk its gone. So,sadly has my Mind with listening to the disneyesque apologists such as merrymo. It had to happen, back on the need I guess. Thanks Doc, oh no its a McDoc, Help me pleeeeease.

Prozac seems to be the only remedy for you anil, plus a long course of psychotherapy to help you with your mcCCC aversion.

Oh no, not the meds again, please mcdoc, . Tigger, been there,done that. And that was before joining this forum. A dark quiet room awaits me. But not 70m as the liver bird lies from a tapas bar. Incidentally. It's always puzzled me. Why would one have a tapas bar in ones garden?
No hope, bring on t he tablets.

anil39200 wrote:Oh no, not the meds again, please mcdoc, . Tigger, been there,done that. And that was before joining this forum. A dark quiet room awaits me. But not 70m as the liver bird lies from a tapas bar. Incidentally. It's always puzzled me. Why would one have a tapas bar in ones garden?
No hope, bring on t [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] he tablets.

Please, may I have some too? Could be too late for me, but you never know...

Don't forget that the gang were taking notes. Kate told us so herself.
And she knew. She "knew" - in italics !, so it must be true.

aiyoyo wrote:

Merrymo wrote
An abduction from this particular apartment may have been planned for months. I don't think it is beyond the wit of seasoned criminals to get hold of an apartment key maybe even months beforehand in readiness. .. It's not like a private house key. There is probably more than one key, used by various people going in and out - cleaners, maintenance people etc. Apartment keys do get lost and mislaid - and could be stolen or 'borrowed' and copied. Unless it can be proved that it is impossible for an apartment key go missing at this complex then it has to remain a viable possibility IMO.

According to previous tenants, the cleaners had a key, which opened the door even when their own key was left in the locked door on the inside.

Bloody hell I've heard it all now.

So these seasonal criminals with wit and ingenuity to get hold of key got only key to 5A? And they laid waiting where ?
No one has reported suspicious loiterers. Dont tell me they were hiding in the bush in front 5A for months and no one noticed them (must be ghostly invisible) until some moroons bring children to holiday and leave them alone?
And dont tell me they were prepared to wait indefinitely until the right type of child is brought to 5A that they prepared the key in advance and laid waiting?

And you were saying? errr these are a bunch of seasonal criminals with wit who copied every key in the resort but laid in wait only for occupants of 5A. OH......hmmm.only key to 5A? Oh so the cleaners were only careless with 5A key? What is it ? Have you made up your mind merrymole?

And, err.......you want us to believe these criminals have WIT and they are SEASONAL! Bloody hell be faster to snatch one anyhow from a busy place even if you're a complete dipstick with brain size of an eyelash.

Come on then...any more bright idea how to abduct a child to order from your mud brain? Sorry no disrespect intended. Do us something clever. We all want to know how exactly she was abducted.

Maybe you should look up the words SEASONED and WIT.

Seasoned - To render competent through trial and experience

Wit - practical intelligence


If you think that criminals cannot possibly have the above attributes - then please explain how the phrase 'Criminal Mastermind' came into being? ... I didn't mention the word SEASONAL at all - which any dipstick knows has a completely different meaning. Maybe you had an eyelash in your eye when you were misreading my post.

BTW 6 sightings of 'Suspicious loiterers' were reported by 4 independent witnesses who noticed them during the few days before the abduction - some appeared to be surveilling Apartment 5a.

Will get back to the rest of your post tomorrow if poss.

Night night.

Still waiting for answers to my post please Merrymo.

e:
aiyoyo wrote:
Merrymo wrote
An abduction from this particular apartment may have been planned for months. I don't think it is beyond the wit of seasoned criminals to get hold of an apartment key maybe even months beforehand in readiness. .. It's not like a private house key. There is probably more than one key, used by various people going in and out - cleaners, maintenance people etc. Apartment keys do get lost and mislaid - and could be stolen or 'borrowed' and copied. Unless it can be proved that it is impossible for an apartment key go missing at this complex then it has to remain a viable possibility IMO.

According to previous tenants, the cleaners had a key, which opened the door even when their own key was left in the locked door on the inside.


Bloody hell I've heard it all now.

So these seasonal criminals with wit and ingenuity to get hold of key got only key to 5A? And they laid waiting where ?
No one has reported suspicious loiterers. Dont tell me they were hiding in the bush in front 5A for months and no one noticed them (must be ghostly invisible) until some moroons bring children to holiday and leave them alone?
And dont tell me they were prepared to wait indefinitely until the right type of child is brought to 5A that they prepared the key in advance and laid waiting?

And you were saying? errr these are a bunch of seasonal criminals with wit who copied every key in the resort but laid in wait only for occupants of 5A. OH......hmmm.only key to 5A? Oh so the cleaners were only careless with 5A key? What is it ? Have you made up your mind merrymole?

And, err.......you want us to believe these criminals have WIT and they are SEASONAL! Bloody hell be faster to snatch one anyhow from a busy place even if you're a complete dipstick with brain size of an eyelash.

Come on then...any more bright idea how to abduct a child to order from your mud brain? Sorry no disrespect intended. Do us something clever. We all want to know how exactly she was abducted.




Maybe you should look up the words SEASONED and WIT.

Seasoned - To render competent through trial and experience

Wit - practical intelligence


If you think that criminals cannot possibly have the above attributes - then please explain how the phrase 'Criminal Mastermind' came into being? ... I didn't mention the word SEASONAL at all - which any dipstick knows has a completely different meaning. Maybe you had an eyelash in your eye when you were misreading my post.

BTW 6 sightings of 'Suspicious loiterers' were reported by 4 independent witnesses who noticed them during the few days before the abduction - some appeared to be surveilling Apartment 5a.

Will get back to the rest of your post tomorrow if poss.

Night night.


Oh dear, there you go again. Proving my point that you have mud for brain.

I think you should give us the definition of WIT and SEASONED applying this to criminal mastermind as you know it.

Surely you don't want us to believe that your gang of seasoned criminal with practical intelligence can end up doing a job in such a brain dead manner. Not characteristics of criminal mastermind as far as others know it.

Surely we all know criminals can have wit and be seasoned. Just look the who the Police suspect were involved in Maddie's death. You cant say the mccanns dont have wit. As for seasoned, from all accounts it appears they might have been seasoned at neglecting her.

My point is : is that the best your gang of seasoned criminals with wit [/u] can do?

Got hold of ONLY key of 5A and laid in wait for months on end for some moroons to bring the right child then they were going leave unattended. If they had the key why didn't they exit the same way? Out of view way as far as we know. Why open the window? Why when their partners in crime (gang remember) are keeping watch did one of them dipsticks dangle Maddie across his arm and stroll leisurely in uncovered area stepping out right at the moment Janey was there?

OH btw the mccanns were not the only ones leaving their children alone on the 3/5?
Oh are we supposed to believe your [u]wit and seasoned criminals have so much wit and so seasoned that when there are so many apts they managed only to nick key to 5A knowing someone right is going to check into 5A that they laid in wait indefinitely until that happens. And here we're are talking seasoned and clever criminal mastermind? Come on! next you will have us believe your gang of seasoned and not seasonal (my mistake)criminals with wit were particularly waiting for the Madeleine, and only Madeleine will do, not any blond child of that age group will do? You will have us believe they were especially waiting for the mccanns at the rate you dish out mud from mud brain.

Come on.....think about it...if they have wit would they stupidly hang around to be spotted? If they are so seasoned they would have made sure they are not spotted if you think about it or they will never get the chance to become "seasoned" so to speak.
If they have practical intelligence why restrict themselves to stealing only 5A key? Why chose thursday, the worst day to do it? You are not going to tell us they have a suicidal wish are you - your gang of seasoned criminals?

If they are seasoned surely they know better ways and method, and know where to find blond little girls. Don't forget your seasoned criminal with wit had to hide from Gerry while he sing a song if you believe Gerry.
That still doesnt explain why they chose Thursday and why 5A?

I notice you tend to avoid all the questions you cannot answer. We are all waiting for you to tell us exactly how Maddie was abducted. Maybe you can tell us how your gang of clever seasoned criminals could have got from where they laid waiting to snatch her in the 2-3 minutes time span and how one ended up dangling her from his outstretched strolling up the path in full view of Janey?
While you are at it maybe you could tell us why didn't they exit with their key? Why did they open the window if they had the key? How did he use his key when he'd Maddie stretched across both arms? Did he have to place her down first?

Don't tell me your gang of seasoned criminals with wit want the police to come after him /them knowing very well if they'd been FOCUSED ON WATCHING 5A that literally within a few minutes another adult is going to come along for the check to discover the open window and child gone and this joker stroll leisurely on FOOT! carrying the child in a manner he cannot make a run for it! Why not also tell us how the gang know where Madeleine bed was just from laying in wait?

He wasn't using gloves so why wasn't any trace of evidence left behind ..doorknob fingerprints for example - remember he used the key?

Come on, we are waiting for your entertaining answers...maybe you get an adrenaline high from clowning.


p.s. even an idiot for criminal would know better way of snatching a child, and from a dark room in a locked holiday apt constantly checked is not an idiot-proof way.

Reminds me a bit of the Smiths' sighting - on another forum one poster said it couldn't have been Gerry because how would Gerry have known the exact time the Smiths would be in that street?

Would "seasoned" abductors looking for a child for a family (therefore not paedophiles) assuming as you say merrymo that they had been watching the family:

a) pick the only child with a clear defect (Madeleine's eye) as claimed by her parents.

b) Not arrive in a car and park right by the building so as to make a getaway rather than walk right across the front of the road where Gerry was talking to Jez Wilkins. If you believe Gerry's thesis in knowing that the abductor was in the children's room when he checked) would they be so unseasoned as to walk across the road where they would surely know that Gerry would still be there and probably others of T9 as they had apparently stepped up their checks.

Merrymo you appear to prefer to suspect the cleaners (or any other employee) from Ocean Club rather than the usual prime suspects in any missing child case - the parents! Stranger abduction is very rare and for there to be no evidence of an abduction is even rarer.

Merrymo wrote:
Well tell me 'ME' - why does that only apply to my opinions as it seems to me that 90% of the posts on this case are just people's opinions. There's an opinion that the McCanns both suffer from personality disorders - but no medical evidence has ever been produced to prove that. There are opinions about a substitute child - but no evidence to substantiate it. There are opinions that the death scent was Maddies, although there is no way of proving that. No-one seems to get any stick for expressing those opinions.

There is nothing wrong with anyone having an opinion, or to speculate about what happened, providing they don't claim it as fact. I don't see why you have a problem with that.

Because your opinions ignore what facts and information we have and have no foundation in either.

For example we see the way the couple were laughing and joking just days after their child disappeared, the video is on Youtube, so we have an information starting point for theories relating to their mental state.

In relation to the substitute child there is evidence that the crèche records are not genuine so once again we can discuss a theory which has some basis in the facts and gathered information of the case.

Similarly with the dogs we know these highly trained dogs are successful in what they do, we know no one has ever died in that apartment before and that Maddie is the only person to go missing from there.

So these opinions are borne out of genuine information which allows us to throw around theories based on that knowledge.

Your theories have none of that they rely on things like "just because there is no evidence of abduction it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen" or "evidence relating to an abduction could have been destroyed" despite nothing, not a grain of anything supporting them.

That's the difference.

Merrymo wrote:In relation to Tanner's statement you conclude she is sane and intelligent yet she put Wilkins and Gez in a different location and she saw things which it was later proved to be impossible in that light at that distance.

She put Jez and GM in the same location as Jez did. Someone would have to be at the same location on a 3rd May at the same time in the same weather conditions and exactly the same lighting arrangements that existed at that time to form such a judgment as you claim. Has anyone done that?

But not the same location Gerry did and Jez and Gerry did not even see her which given the parked cars that were on the road at the time would have made it impossible for her to walk past them there on that road without being seen unless she had turned into an apparition!

I think you may find that the Truth of the Lie documentary did just that with the lighting.

A more simple test would be to go outside of your own house at 9.15 next month and see if you can see pyjama colour details from the distance she claims she saw them.

Not 100% scientific i know but indicitive and I guarantee you won't be able to.

Merrymo wrote:Blacksmith's analysis.

With respect to Blacksmith - I find his/her analysis to be flawed.

Ok then, what is flawed and how in Blacksmith's analysis?

You're doing it again, making sweeping statements with no evidence to back it up and it really is making you look silly now.

No I am not. I said IMO the analysis was flawed and gave my reasons why. If you think it is possible for 9 people to all have perfect and identical recall about times/events that took place the day or 2 days before, and of which at the time they had no idea they would later need to recall then I am very surprised. Can you say without looking how many posts you and I posted yesterday and what time they were posted ? At least allow the group to have the normal human frailties that the rest of us have.

No your sole rebuttal relies only on the idea that the times the witnesses gave in their signed and sworn statements must have been incorrect and that it is natural to expect that.

Except it isn’t and it begs the question why did they sign them?

Merrymo wrote:It doesn't matter what times the group wrote down - the plain fact is those times cannot be veried as accurate. They are the correct times only as far as the group can remember. Different people have vastly different perceptions of time - and unless a person can say...... 'I know it was such and such a time because....blah blah blah'' - then there is no way of proving whether they are right or not.

Once again you spectacularly miss the point of the witness statements. You are inferring that witness statements are useless because if people contradict one another then it must be because their recollections are different

No I am not. I am saying that 100% reliablity of accuracy cannot be attributed to times/events recalled from the day before. Only best estimates can be achieved - which may be accurate but equally may not be.

Ok so i take it then that you agree that memory does not better with time? So if events cannot accurately be recalled the day after there is no chance of events being recalled accurately months and years later?

Do you agree with this?

If so please explain how the statements changed over the months and years and how things were remembered which previously weren't.

There comes a point where a witness’s accuracy of events arouses suspicion, particularly as their memories seem to improve over time. Do you agree with that?

Do you not think that saying for example, that you came in the locked front door the morning after and then changing it to the open patio door is simply an issue of recall or something which should arouse suspicion because to not remember that the following day suggests lying rather than poor recall?

Do you not think it odd that memories improve with age and stories change and all these changes always, without fail, help to promote or strengthen the “abduction” theory put forward by the McCann’s?

If the recall was genuine and random then surely there would have been a more random nature to the recollections rather than a symmetry of events, from all the witnesses in the later statements which defy science in terms of memory recall.

Instead we have Jane Tanner saying in her first statement she left 5 minutes after Gerry. Then in later statements this became 5-10 minutes because to stick with 5 minutes would have left no gap in time for an abductor to take the child after Gerry left the apartment and started talking to Jez.

Similarly Gerry in his first statement said he returned from his visit at 9.10-9.15 but that then changed because to do so would have meant he could not have been there when Jane said she saw him.

He later recalled looking at this watch saying he left at 9.04. Is it plausible he wouldn’t have remembered that to begin with?

Staying with Gerry he said he went in the front door which was locked in his first statement. He then said he didn’t, he went in via the patio door which was open and lo and behold the front door wasn’t locked either.

Why? Because to stay with the first story would have weakened the abduction story and given an abductor no way of getting in.

So all these changes come together, as one, to suggest that the witnesses have got together and agreed on timelines and stories in contradiction to their first statements and to the benefit of the McCann’s version of events.

And indeed we know this happened in their infamous meeting in Rothley. Which then begs the question why would they need to do that? what are they trying to achieve in clearly working on their later statements together and contradicting their earlier ones which contain glaring contradictions?

Merrymo wrote:
Why do you think police in all countries still use witness statements as the bedrock of all investigations if they are, as you think, so unreliable?

See my reply above. I am talking about one specific area of statements - i.e. the recall of TIMES

But the group were doing regular checks on their children weren’t they? So are you saying they have no recollection of time yet they were performing regular 15 or 30 minute checks? How did they know when to go?

Do you believe a group of 9 didn’t have a watch between them? Do you believe they didn’t have mobile phones and do you honestly believe that having left their kids alone and in performing regular checks they weren’t aware of the time in between their checks?

How would they know when was the time of their next check if they had no watches or concept of time?

You can’t credibly claim you were doing regular 15 or 30 minute checks on the one hand then claim you had no concept of time when asked about that evening’s movements.

They either lied about the regular checks or they lied about the vagueness of timings but it can’t be both.

Do you think given that it is plausible to think they could have been so imprecise on the times or is possibly likely that they were being deliberately elusive?

Merrymo wrote:You also fail to remember that the group colluded together to product 3 different timelines (remember the sticker book). Two on the night then a typed one the day after. So to say it is normal to expect differences in time in this case is completely wrong because they all worked on producing an accurate timeline.

It doesn't follow that the times they came up with were accurate down to the last minute. You say 'colluding' - I say they were 'pooling' their information in order to arrive at the most accurate times events took place in order to help the police. What one person may have forgotten another one may have remembered or memories may have been jogged when discussing it as a group. That seems a perfectly normal thing to do to me.

If that exercise was a devious one, purely for their own benefit - they would hardly have handed the written/typed EVIDENCE of their 'collusion' on a plate to the police. That makes no sense at all.

Well of course as a McCann believer you would say it was "pooling" but clearly it goes against the central tenant of a witness statement and that is that a statement should be your version of events and not what others have told you they were doing but your own version.

It was up to the police to do that job of sifting through their recall.

Of course they would have handed it in!! They now have a joint "narrative" that they can all chant as gospel. Between them they agreed on a set timeline irrespective of whether it contradicted their earlier statements.

They can then (as they did) claim "we're pooling our information to help you" but in reality each of them now has a group version of events and "script" from which to work from irrespective of what they actually saw and did.

It removes the police's ability to pick holes in each person's statements and to play each witness’s version against one other to get to the truth, if they are all singing from the same “pooled” hymn sheet.

It looks bad, arouses suspicion and leaves investigators wondering why they would do this.

Merrymo wrote:If you read the groups statements they rarely mention a time without preceding it with the words 'about' or 'around' - so are all approximations. So to use times that are not verifiable as correct and are therefore unreliable - as the basis of an analysis - makes everything that follows unreliable too IMO.

Again, absolute nonsense. See the sticker book and then in a later statement Gerry's sudden memory recall of wearing a watch and a leaving time of 9.04.

The sticker book is not a witness statement. The only one time which is claimed to be indisputable is the one by GM of 9.04 None of the others make that claim.

The sticker book and subsequent printed timeline were presented as evidence to the police by the group and entered into the files as such. This is clearly a case of the group putting their name to a version of events and handing it.

The time is not indisputable because how can we prove Gerry did wear a watch when he previously hadn’t mentioned it? We are relying on his word and nothing else.

Merrymo wrote:To be a few minutes adrift here or there wouldn't matter in many circumstances, but it does in this one because an abduction can take place in minutes - and so accuracy is important.

Exactly which is why they got together and produced 3 different timelines. And despite working on 3 different timelines these contradictions remain. What does that tell you?

It tells me what I already knew i.e. that perfect and identical recall by 9 different people sharing the same events over a period of time is highly unlikely. I remember seeing a TV prog on exactly this a couple of years ago. Several people were taken to a pub and witnessed a scene which unbeknown to them was being carried out by actors. They were then each asked to give descriptions of what happened and in which sequence. Their recollections differed wildly.

I agree accuracy is important so why did Gerry say he entered via the front door in his first statement and then changed it to the patio door in later statements? How can he be so mistaken about that?

I don't know. ..There was confusion regarding the descriptions of the doors. This is referred to by a policeman during JT rogatory interview, where they decided for the sake of clarity and because of previous confusion to call the patio doors the 'poolside door' and the front door the 'roadside door'. This is because in some cases the front door (i.e. the timber door) was being described as the back door. JT does it in her statement.

Whatever the reason with GM it must have been cleared up satisfactorily as it would appear no mention was made about it again. If it has I have missed it. I would have expected it to be one of the 48 questions if there was any doubt about it.

ALL IMHO.

No there was no confusion about the doors. See above it was a change in order to facilitate the group’s general pooled story.

The patio door could not be opened by a key from outside so it was quite clear which door he was referring to.

That of course doesn’t explain either why he claimed it was locked and then later recanted to say it was unlocked.

Of course there was doubt in it because any normal person the morning after would be able to remember which they door they went through.

No it wasn’t cleared up properly because there was no explanation given by Gerry as to why it changed.

It would have been something that would have been looked at had they performed the reconstruction instead of refusing to do so.

Could this be, perhaps, one of the reasons why they refused to take part in that reconstruction? So these contradictions didn’t come up and have to be explained further ?

good post Me.I like to read these debates,but bloody hell Merrymo is making right prat of herself/himself.

Given the statements of all concerned, the theory of an actual abduction taking place seems implausible if not actually impossible. The notion that an abduction was carried out by a group of criminal masterminds really stretches things beyond belief.

There are plenty of blonde kids in Portugal (and Spain come to that) either native or tourists. Having lived in small-town Spain and being close to the Portuguese border I can testify that if someone was inclined to do so they could probably, in a day, cover half a dozen towns at least and abduct a child in daylight from each town with a fairly safe chance that they'd be well away before being caught. Busy areas, kids playing out of sight of their parents with a freedom long gone in Britain is pretty common there. It'd be a piece of cake.

Alternatively hit busy beach areas or leisure malls - sure there may be CCTV at the malls but getting round such things should be a piece of cake to such criminal masterminds.

The notion that, instead of any of the above, they'd stake out an apartment waiting for the right child to come along and then the right opportunity...it just don't add up.

tiny wrote:good post Me.I like to read these debates,but bloody hell Merrymo is making right prat of herself/himself.

Agreed tiny. And well said Me. But, like herpes, I fear Merrymo will return...
It was funny for a while but the joke is wearing thin now. Why has nobody pressed the button yet?
I am yearning for the day when we get a 'Pro' who actually says something NEW, something sensible!
I am sorry to say I think my yearning will be thwarted. What CAN they say? No evidence to back it up is the problem.

aiyoyo wrote:e:
aiyoyo wrote:
Merrymo wrote
An abduction from this particular apartment may have been planned for months. I don't think it is beyond the wit of seasoned criminals to get hold of an apartment key maybe even months beforehand in readiness. .. It's not like a private house key. There is probably more than one key, used by various people going in and out - cleaners, maintenance people etc. Apartment keys do get lost and mislaid - and could be stolen or 'borrowed' and copied. Unless it can be proved that it is impossible for an apartment key go missing at this complex then it has to remain a viable possibility IMO.

According to previous tenants, the cleaners had a key, which opened the door even when their own key was left in the locked door on the inside.

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Bloody hell I've heard it all now.

So these seasonal criminals with wit and ingenuity to get hold of key got only key to 5A? And they laid waiting where ?
No one has reported suspicious loiterers. Dont tell me they were hiding in the bush in front 5A for months and no one noticed them (must be ghostly invisible) until some moroons bring children to holiday and leave them alone?
And dont tell me they were prepared to wait indefinitely until the right type of child is brought to 5A that they prepared the key in advance and laid waiting?

And you were saying? errr these are a bunch of seasonal criminals with wit who copied every key in the resort but laid in wait only for occupants of 5A. OH......hmmm.only key to 5A? Oh so the cleaners were only careless with 5A key? What is it ? Have you made up your mind merrymole?

And, err.......you want us to believe these criminals have WIT and they are SEASONAL! Bloody hell be faster to snatch one anyhow from a busy place even if you're a complete dipstick with brain size of an eyelash.

Come on then...any more bright idea how to abduct a child to order from your mud brain? Sorry no disrespect intended. Do us something clever. We all want to know how exactly she was abducted.

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Maybe you should look up the words SEASONED and WIT.

Seasoned - To render competent through trial and experience

Wit - practical intelligence


If you think that criminals cannot possibly have the above attributes - then please explain how the phrase 'Criminal Mastermind' came into being? ... I didn't mention the word SEASONAL at all - which any dipstick knows has a completely different meaning. Maybe you had an eyelash in your eye when you were misreading my post.

BTW 6 sightings of 'Suspicious loiterers' were reported by 4 independent witnesses who noticed them during the few days before the abduction - some appeared to be surveilling Apartment 5a.

Will get back to the rest of your post tomorrow if poss.

Night night.
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Oh dear, there you go again. Proving my point that you have mud for brain.

I think you should give us the definition of WIT and SEASONED applying this to criminal mastermind as you know it.

Surely you don't want us to believe that your gang of seasoned criminal with practical intelligence can end up doing a job in such a brain dead manner. Not characteristics of criminal mastermind as far as others know it.

Surely we all know criminals can have wit and be seasoned. Just look the who the Police suspect were involved in Maddie's death. You cant say the mccanns dont have wit. As for seasoned, from all accounts it appears they might have been seasoned at neglecting her.

My point is : is that the best your gang of seasoned criminals with wit [/u] can do?

You misread my post. Full stop. ..A simply 'Oops sorry' for the comments made as a result of that error would have sufficed. ..We all make mistakes.

If Maddie was abducted by a gang then how can you describe them as braindead? 5 years on and she has never been found. You can't have it both ways.


Got hold of ONLY key of 5A and laid in wait for months on end for some moroons to bring the right child then they were going leave unattended. If they had the key why didn't they exit the same way? Out of view way as far as we know. Why open the window? Why when their partners in crime (gang remember) are keeping watch did one of them dipsticks dangle Maddie across his arm and stroll leisurely in uncovered area stepping out right at the moment Janey was there?

OH btw the mccanns were not the only ones leaving their children alone on the 3/5?
Oh are we supposed to believe your [u]wit and seasoned criminals have so much wit and so seasoned that when there are so many apts they managed only to nick key to 5A knowing someone right is going to check into 5A that they laid in wait indefinitely until that happens. And here we're are talking seasoned and clever criminal mastermind? Come on! next you will have us believe your gang of seasoned and not seasonal (my mistake)criminals with wit were particularly waiting for the Madeleine, and only Madeleine will do, not any blond child of that age group will do? You will have us believe they were especially waiting for the mccanns at the rate you dish out mud from mud brain.

Come on.....think about it...if they have wit would they stupidly hang around to be spotted? If they are so seasoned they would have made sure they are not spotted if you think about it or they will never get the chance to become "seasoned" so to speak.
If they have practical intelligence why restrict themselves to stealing only 5A key? Why chose thursday, the worst day to do it? You are not going to tell us they have a suicidal wish are you - your gang of seasoned criminals?

If they are seasoned surely they know better ways and method, and know where to find blond little girls. Don't forget your seasoned criminal with wit had to hide from Gerry while he sing a song if you believe Gerry.
That still doesnt explain why they chose Thursday and why 5A?

I notice you tend to avoid all the questions you cannot answer. We are all waiting for you to tell us exactly how Maddie was abducted. Maybe you can tell us how your gang of clever seasoned criminals could have got from where they laid waiting to snatch her in the 2-3 minutes time span and how one ended up dangling her from his outstretched strolling up the path in full view of Janey?
While you are at it maybe you could tell us why didn't they exit with their key? Why did they open the window if they had the key? How did he use his key when he'd Maddie stretched across both arms? Did he have to place her down first?

Don't tell me your gang of seasoned criminals with wit want the police to come after him /them knowing very well if they'd been FOCUSED ON WATCHING 5A that literally within a few minutes another adult is going to come along for the check to discover the open window and child gone and this joker stroll leisurely on FOOT! carrying the child in a manner he cannot make a run for it! Why not also tell us how the gang know where Madeleine bed was just from laying in wait?

He wasn't using gloves so why wasn't any trace of evidence left behind ..doorknob fingerprints for example - remember he used the key?

Come on, we are waiting for your entertaining answers...maybe you get an adrenaline high from clowning.


p.s. even an idiot for criminal would know better way of snatching a child, and from a dark room in a locked holiday apt constantly checked is not an idiot-proof way.

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We could argue all day about these points. EG. We know the McCanns didn't have a car but we don't know whether the abductors did or what they did after they left 5A. All we know is where one of them was sighted at 10.00p.m. We have no way of knowing what happened in the meantime.

Unfortunately much as I would like to - I don't have time to spend hours posting on forums so to move things along - I'll put the following points to you.

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I do not believe Maddie died between the hours of 5.30 and 8.30p.m on the 3rd May whilst she was with her parents at the apartment..

(1) If she had died during that time because of an accidental fall - then there is no reason in the world why her parents would not have simply dashed to Reception and asked for help - in exactly the same way anyone else would. What possible 'prosecution' could have resulted from their child tragically dying as a result of a fall - say - going up the steps, or on the patio, or a fall off the settee etc whilst they were with her. . Absolutely none. imo.

(2) If, on the other hand, she had died from a sedative overdose, either accidentally or given to her deliberately - then once again they simply had to call for help and say their daughter had collapsed and died - and claim at some stage that she must have found some of their pills and taken them .

Whether that was the truth or not - who was there to contradict them?

So once again why even consider a hugely complicated fake abduction plan involving disposing of a childs body, without the aid of a car, cleaning and scrubbing the place, washing curtains etc etc and implicating 7 other people when it was completely unnecessary?

All they had to say was ' We blame ourselves for not putting the pills out of her reach' - and though it would not be quite as straightforward as (1) above - it would not result in a prosecution IMO. ..We do hear of children - especially of Maddies age taking pills meant for others - which is why the warnings to keep medicine out the reach of childre are so prevalent.

I don't know what the time-lines are for a child to die due to an overdose of sedative. It may be possible that it would take hours on end. Does anyone know?

In both the above scenarios the babychecking arrangements are completely irrelevant - and no-one else would need to be asked to join in a cover-up.

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I believe she was alive on the 3rd May - simply because there are far too many independent witnesses who saw her- right up until she was having her tea to believe otherwise. Not just the witnesses who have given evidence but I'm sure there were many more amongst the other holidaymakers and their children who saw her that day - but who were allowed to go home without being interviewed. .. I've never heard any reports that Amaral or any other policeman believe she was not alive on the 3rd. If I'm wrong I'm sure you will correct me.

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So if I rule out the possibility of her death while she was with her parents in the apartment - then she could only have died after they left between 8.30 and 9.00ish p.m . .either from an accident or from an overdose of sedative. We know there was one check by GM - after which he was talking to JW at around 9.15 - he then returned to the restaurant and had his meal. So if anyone can tell me how he managed to fake the abduction in the time remaining before the alarm was raised at 10.00p.m when he was at the table - then I would be very interested to hear it. If you could also explain how he could be in two places at once(Smith sighting) that would be appreciated.

If you're just going to take the easy way out and dismiss any evidence by the Tapas 9 that doesn't suit - by saying they were lying - then don't bother unless you can prove they were lyilng. ... Anyone can build a case with those tactics.