More rogatory stuff

by uppatoffee 15.02.12 8:17

It's also odd that he says, when trying to recollect what happened,

"it feels like an exam" "it's a test of memory"

If one of the people you are on holiday with "loses" a child, surely the events of that day would be forever ingrained on your mind? You would re run events over and over, wondering if you could have done anything different. However if you are trying to remember a story that you have been told, then I can quite see how it would feel like an exam that you were being tested on how well you remembered it! winkwink

by uppatoffee 15.02.12 8:18

Interestingly Matt also says "Gerry and Kate put their kids back into the crèche each afternoon."

According to MW website this means that they would have had to pay extra, as only one session was included free of charge. So, they were prepared to pay to put three kids in an extra session in the creche in the afternoon, but not for a baby sitter in the evening. Really? This currently looks to be £180 per child per week if they attended all day rather than just one session. Baby sitting is just 12 Euros/hour.

by Liz Eagles 15.02.12 8:50

uppatoffee wrote:Interestingly Matt also says "Gerry and Kate put their kids back into the crèche each afternoon."

According to MW website this means that they would have had to pay extra, as only one session was included free of charge. So, they were prepared to pay to put three kids in an extra session in the creche in the afternoon, but not for a baby sitter in the evening. Really? This currently looks to be £180 per child per week if they attended all day rather than just one session. Baby sitting is just 12 Euros/hour. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I've not seen about the extra session in the creche being chargeable..and if this is the case then there must be a bill for it somewhere presumably paid with a credit card.

by Gillyspot 21.02.12 7:33

Just spotted another interesting quote from Matt's rogatory statement.

"00.33.07 4078 "So you were just going to cover the arrangements that had been put in place for checking on the children?"

Reply "Right. And so the Tapas seemed to fit because, because you didn't feel far away from the room, it felt so quiet and very safe and it was sort of a minutes walk, if that actual distance seemed quite, you were sort of falsely reassured, but obviously at this point you could see the back of your apartment, not hugely clearly, but you can sort of see the apartment block, you could see if the light came on, for instance, or you felt that you'd be able to see if the light came on and because we were sort of going what we thought was every sort of ten or fifteen minutes, basically between courses, then you could go. And rather than go and find another restaurant where not everybody would be able to go because somebody would need to be babysitting, it seemed most sensible just to, to stay put in the same place, because the food was pretty reasonable and just trekking everywhere else was going to make it such a headache for the child care. And then this issue of, well you do just put the kids in with babysitters, because they were in a sort of a Nanny sort of a night drop-off service, but that kind of felt less safe, in that, one, they wouldn't sleep or G***e wouldn't, we'd be worried that she wouldn't particularly sleep and she'd be worried and it'd be difficult to drop her off because she really didn't like being dropped off at the Nursery, which I always tried to avoid that chore, I did it on the Thursday, but she didn't like it and she wouldn't go to sleep particular well with sort of strangers in a room when people would be coming in and out to collect their children".

4078 "It would be unsettling for her".

Reply "So it actually seemed a worse choice than just being close but not actually in the room (inaudible)"."

So Matt said Grace was in the evening creche on the Thursday? This being the day of Madeleine's "abduction".

What did Grace look like, could she be compared to Madeleine on a dark night in the street?

by Miraflores 21.02.12 9:20

So Matt said Grace was in the evening creche on the Thursday? This being the day of Madeleine's "abduction".

I read this as Grace being dropped of at the day sessions, which Matt did on the Thursday, therefore he didn't expect her to settle at night:

"she really didn't like being dropped off at the Nursery, which I
always tried to avoid that chore, I did it on the Thursday, but she
didn't like it and she wouldn't go to sleep particular well with sort of
strangers in a room when people would be coming in and out to collect
their children".

We don't know whether the McCann children disliked being dropped off. If this applied in their case it would make some sense of the McCann's statement of not wanting them to be left with strangers i.e. other parents coming and going.

I had always assumed this wasn't a factor because the McCann children were left for both morning and afternoon sessions, and according to the book, Madeleine preferred to go back to an afternoon session rather than spend time on the beach with her family. Paying a nanny to sit in the apartment wouldn't have involved other parents coming and going, so that makes their reluctance to pay for a babysitter even more puzzling.

by Guest 21.02.12 10:17

Gillyspot, I think that the Oldfields' child was the youngest of the group, somewhere around 18 months old.

by Genbug 21.02.12 16:45

Jean wrote:Gillyspot, I think that the Oldfields' child was the youngest of the group, somewhere around 18 months old.

Hi Jean, no the Paynes had a younger daughter, I think she was 11 months at the time.

by Genbug 21.02.12 16:48

Gillyspot wrote:
What did Grace look like, could she be compared to Madeleine on a dark night in the street?

Gillyspot, from the pictures I have seen (Pamalams site?) Grace was quite petite and dark haired.

by Snifferdog 01.06.12 15:00

I have not seen this before so have posted it here. Not sure if it has been posted before, if so my apologies.
It is labeled Oldfield Connection. Oldfield and Oldfield

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

On the left is Dr Matthew Oldfield, consultant endocrinologist and friend of Kate and Gerry McCann.

On the right is Mr Adrian Oldfield, Senior IT specialist with Ernst
& Young and a Member of the Board of Directors of PACT, the charity
founded by Lady Catherine Meyer. A recent addition to the Board of
Directors of PACT is Jim Gamble, late of CEOP.

by friedtomatoes 01.06.12 15:33

Apart from the same surname here, what is the connection supposed to be?

by jd 01.06.12 15:36

This is interesting Snifferdog. Good find

On the comments a Stevo (I think this is Steve Marsden aka Brian Johnson of 'Faked Abduction' book) says "Look into Mark Otty of Ernst & Young. Several people wrote to me indicating that he was the 10th Tapas member." A quick search and the following article was published on the 3rd May 2007. Not much interesting info except Mark Otty is a keen runner and ran the London marathon "Mark Otty, the new chairman of Ernst & Young, has just run the London marathon when we speak to him. In a modest three hours and 12 minutes. So did he have to train hard?
‘No’ is the short answer. He barely needed to. It emerges that he ran a 35 mile ultra-marathon two weeks before. Suggestions that Otty likes to jog, which emerged relatively early in his candidacy for the top job at E&Y in the UK, are no joke. ‘I do about 40 miles a week,’ he says."

I know of other people who are keen joggers!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Hummingbird 01.06.12 15:42

jd wrote:This is interesting Snifferdog. Good find

On the comments a Stevo (I think this is Steve Marsden aka Brian Johnson of 'Faked Abduction' book) says "Look into Mark Otty of Ernst & Young. Several people wrote to me indicating that he was the 10th Tapas member." A quick search and the following article was published on the 3rd May 2007. Not much interesting info except Mark Otty is a keen runner and ran the London marathon "Mark Otty, the new chairman of Ernst & Young, has just run the London marathon when we speak to him. In a modest three hours and 12 minutes. So did he have to train hard?
‘No’ is the short answer. He barely needed to. It emerges that he ran a 35 mile ultra-marathon two weeks before. Suggestions that Otty likes to jog, which emerged relatively early in his candidacy for the top job at E&Y in the UK, are no joke. ‘I do about 40 miles a week,’ he says."

I know of other people who are keen joggers!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Sorry to be a bit thick here, was there talk of there being more than 9 members of the Tapas group then? Could you please point me in the right direction?
Cheers

by jd 01.06.12 15:55

Over the years there has been many who have said that there was a 10th tapas member, and the one whose identity is being kept hidden and what the coverup is about. But at this point in time it is more internet speculation and so far nothing concrete to support this 10th Tapas member

by Hummingbird 01.06.12 16:41

jd, thanks for the reply I had heard the 'gossip' about this but wondered if there was actually any proof of it!

I have not seen this thread before and have just read through it - very interesting - what a mumbling person MO is!!

I noticed this and found it very telling as he seems to talk an awful lot about childcare, seems to be big on his agenda!

quote
& rather than go and find another restaurant where not everybody would be able to go because somebody would need to be babysitting, it seemed most sensible just to, to stay put in the, in the same place, because the food was pretty reasonable and just treking everywhere else was going to make it such a headache for the childcare
unquote.

first, didn't getting up between every course and running back to your apartment every 10 to 15 minutes make it even more of a headache because no sooner have you arrived back you must have had to go again, and I can't imagine the indigestion tablets that must have been consumed that holiday!!

But this is what I noticed, he almost kinda (in my way of reading between the lines) tells us that this is what they did anyway, someone babysat and perhaps this is why there was apparently someone 'ill' and missing every evening - just my way of reading it, it really jumped out at me

by jd 01.06.12 17:04

But this is what I noticed, he almost kinda (in my way of reading between the lines) tells us that this is what they did anyway, someone babysat and perhaps this is why there was apparently someone 'ill' and missing every evening - just my way of reading it, it really jumped out at me

This is what many people have noticed too and is the foundation of why the belief of someone was looking after the kids together each night. I always have the rather strange comment from gerry mccann to jez wilkins that he wished he could be like him and stay in with his kids one night, but he felt the need/pressure to socialise out with his friends instead. it says to me very clearly how not important he valued family life and his kids, especially as they are meant to be there on family holidays. Considering their apartments were all in the same location together (except payne upstairs) I never understood why on some nights at least, they didn't get a take away from the Tapas and had a big family night with all across their apartments and balconies. The kids would love it and be excited they could stay up late with their friends on holiday etc and the adults could look after them properly. The paynes seemed to make lunch for everyone most days if not everyday, so why not dinner in someones else's apartment on some nights. Considering they hardly spent any time with their kids on the holiday, having a big dinner all together would to me be the most obvious thing to do. But instead they 'persuaded' OC to book the same table every night with clearly no other intention than being in the Tapas bar on their own every night since they got there, and then neglecting the kids by leaving them totally exposed to anything for the bulk of the nights as they couldn't keep the proper due care required

by russiandoll 12.04.13 18:41

MO in is rogatory makes it clear that he and RM/O had next to no contact with the McCann family for a number of years before the 2007 holiday.

In relation to Gerry and Kate then, just to clarify what you have said.
You met them at David and Fiona's wedding?"

Reply "Yeah".

4078 "In two thousand and three in Italy. And you stayed, you shared an apartment
with them then. Have you met them socially between then and now very often?"

Reply
"No, no, we, erm, I know that some of the other groups would, but I
think mainly because we
were no longer Leicester based, because we left Leicester in two
thousand and, end of two thousand
and three beginning of
two thousand and four, because I got a job down in Kingston because I
came to the end of my training,
and so we moved out,
erm, from there. But in between the times that we were still at
Leicester, two thousand and three would
have been the wedding,
so the end of two thousand and three, because I started at Kingston in
February two thousand and four
and we didn't sort of
socialise, I don't think we met them at all after the wedding, before,
erm, before we left to go down
to London. But I know
Russ and Jane and Dave and Fiona would have been to sort of the birthday
parties, erm, but more because
they were Leicester
based really. And we weren't, hadn't become sort of that close from that
small visit in Italy".

4078 "So the first time you had seen them or had anything to do with them
really again was this holiday last May?"

Reply
"Yeah, I mean, we knew about them because Fiona, Dave and Fiona were
sort of close friends
with them and I think Fiona and Kate trained at some point (inaudible)
training or knew each other in
that way, so we'd hear
about them, but it was, erm, Gerry and Kate and then Dave and Fi at this
end and then Russ and Jane
sort of sort of thing,
it was like that".

It is on record from other witness statements that this near-stranger was trusted to check on the McCann children. Any one or all of them, had they been awake or in the process of waking when he walked into 5A, would have been frightened.

This stranger was in the apartment between the last sighting of Maddie by her father and the discovery of Maddie missing at 10pm.
Placing myself in the position of either Gerry or Kate, I would want this man questioned closely by the police.
I know next to nothing of his character, his trustworthiness, because we are acquaintances rather than friends.
Why should I trust him? He says he has been in our apartment, has seen 2 out of 3 children, then 30 minutes later, the one he says he did not see is missing.

Who said that the answer to what happened to Maddie lies within the group made up of her parents and their friends?
I quite agree. Wherever, whatever you read, you arrive back at the tapas group.

by russiandoll 12.04.13 19:06

[size=18]and then there is this

4078
"Was there an actual discussion between the group of you as to the sort
of fifteen minute checks
or ten minute checks or whatever or was it something that you as a
couple had decided on and then
the circumstances during
the week meant that everyone had sort of taken it in turns to check?"

Reply
"No, we pretty much checked our, well certainly we checked our own
and it was only the last
night that we offered to check for Gerry and Kate. It just, we are sort
of fairly similar, our sort
of views on sort of
child care and that it was important, we're sort of from the same
background, we have sort of similar
issues about sort of
child rearing, which is why we sort of get on and there was nothing
obvious that anybody would do anything
particularly different. I
mean, Russell and Jane sort of, erm, are sort of fairly relaxed and
easy going, erm, and Dave and
Fi are sort of a bit
disorganised and a bit late and Gerry and Kate are much more organised
and we sort of fit sort of between
that end of between,
between that end of the scale and Russell and Jane. So it was all sort
of, it was just sort of natural,
we didn't decide, oh
we'll do this, it just sort of came at natural breaks, we'd come down
and we'd go between sort of courses
to sort of check, but we
usually, we'd check our own and, as far as I know, that didn't really
change. Although, because it
wouldn't seem, certainly
for Russell and Jane I'd be happy to check for their children because
they know me and if, you know,
they had been awake and I
went in they wouldn't be particularly, erm, you know, they wouldn't be
particularly shocked or surprised
or not know who I was,
but Gerry and Kate and their children I didn't know them so well, so I
wouldn't and certainly at the
beginning of the week
have offered to check their children or assumed that that would be okay,
it was only at the end of the
week when we seemed to
know each other better and our routines and everybody seemed to be doing
the same thing that it seemed
to be a nice thing to do
to offer to save them a trip".

So, we sort of have it.......that by the Thursday MO and other/s felt that they had become more familiar with the McCanns.
They lunched apart from them.
They did daytime activities apart from them.
Maddie was in creche am and pm and had lunchapart from the tapas friends and children.
Maddie was not at dinner with them.
They might have spent some time with Maddie after tea, during pre- bedtime play. But also playing with their own children. Not a lot of time with her, then.
So on what basis did MO and other/s believe that suddenly on the Thursday night, Maddie would not get a fright if she saw him in 5a?

by Liz Eagles 12.04.13 19:20

russiandoll wrote:[size=18]and then there is this

4078
"Was there an actual discussion between the group of you as to the sort
of fifteen minute checks
or ten minute checks or whatever or was it something that you as a
couple had decided on and then
the circumstances during
the week meant that everyone had sort of taken it in turns to check?"

Reply
"No, we pretty much checked our, well certainly we checked our own
and it was only the last
night that we offered to check for Gerry and Kate. It just, we are sort
of fairly similar, our sort
of views on sort of
child care and that it was important, we're sort of from the same
background, we have sort of similar
issues about sort of
child rearing, which is why we sort of get on and there was nothing
obvious that anybody would do anything
particularly different. I
mean, Russell and Jane sort of, erm, are sort of fairly relaxed and
easy going, erm, and Dave and
Fi are sort of a bit
disorganised and a bit late and Gerry and Kate are much more organised
and we sort of fit sort of between
that end of between,
between that end of the scale and Russell and Jane. So it was all sort
of, it was just sort of natural,
we didn't decide, oh
we'll do this, it just sort of came at natural breaks, we'd come down
and we'd go between sort of courses
to sort of check, but we
usually, we'd check our own and, as far as I know, that didn't really
change. Although, because it
wouldn't seem, certainly
for Russell and Jane I'd be happy to check for their children because
they know me and if, you know,
they had been awake and I
went in they wouldn't be particularly, erm, you know, they wouldn't be
particularly shocked or surprised
or not know who I was,
but Gerry and Kate and their children I didn't know them so well, so I
wouldn't and certainly at the
beginning of the week
have offered to check their children or assumed that that would be okay,
it was only at the end of the
week when we seemed to
know each other better and our routines and everybody seemed to be doing
the same thing that it seemed
to be a nice thing to do
to offer to save them a trip".

So, we sort of have it.......that by the Thursday MO and other/s felt that they had become more familiar with the McCanns.
They lunched apart from them.
They did daytime activities apart from them.
Maddie was in creche am and pm and had lunchapart from the tapas friends and children.
Maddie was not at dinner with them.
They might have spent some time with Maddie after tea, during pre- bedtime play. But also playing with their own children. Not a lot of time with her, then.
So on what basis did MO and other/s believe that suddenly on the Thursday night, Maddie would not get a fright if she saw him in 5a?

Let's remember the assurance 'within the realms of reasonable parenting' !!!

by Guest 12.04.13 20:07

russiandoll wrote:[size=18]and then there is this

4078
"Was there an actual discussion between the group of you as to the sort
of fifteen minute checks
or ten minute checks or whatever or was it something that you as a
couple had decided on and then
the circumstances during
the week meant that everyone had sort of taken it in turns to check?"

Reply
"No, we pretty much checked our, well certainly we checked our own
and it was only the last
night that we offered to check for Gerry and Kate. It just, we are sort
of fairly similar, our sort
of views on sort of
child care and that it was important, we're sort of from the same
background, we have sort of similar
issues about sort of
child rearing, which is why we sort of get on and there was nothing
obvious that anybody would do anything
particularly different. I
mean, Russell and Jane sort of, erm, are sort of fairly relaxed and
easy going, erm, and Dave and
Fi are sort of a bit
disorganised and a bit late and Gerry and Kate are much more organised
and we sort of fit sort of between
that end of between,
between that end of the scale and Russell and Jane. So it was all sort
of, it was just sort of natural,
we didn't decide, oh
we'll do this, it just sort of came at natural breaks, we'd come down
and we'd go between sort of courses
to sort of check, but we
usually, we'd check our own and, as far as I know, that didn't really
change. Although, because it
wouldn't seem, certainly
for Russell and Jane I'd be happy to check for their children because
they know me and if, you know,
they had been awake and I
went in they wouldn't be particularly, erm, you know, they wouldn't be
particularly shocked or surprised
or not know who I was,
but Gerry and Kate and their children I didn't know them so well, so I
wouldn't and certainly at the
beginning of the week
have offered to check their children or assumed that that would be okay,
it was only at the end of the
week when we seemed to
know each other better and our routines and everybody seemed to be doing
the same thing that it seemed
to be a nice thing to do
to offer to save them a trip".

So, we sort of have it.......that by the Thursday MO and other/s felt that they had become more familiar with the McCanns.
They lunched apart from them.
They did daytime activities apart from them.
Maddie was in creche am and pm and had lunchapart from the tapas friends and children.
Maddie was not at dinner with them.
They might have spent some time with Maddie after tea, during pre- bedtime play. But also playing with their own children. Not a lot of time with her, then.
So on what basis did MO and other/s believe that suddenly on the Thursday night, Maddie would not get a fright if she saw him in 5a?

'Cause she was dead?

by Guest 12.04.13 20:20

It is indeed the most peculiar of things, and I am repeating myself, that someone who didn't know the children and thus might have frightened them if they would wake up, went to check on them.
Correction: he went on checking Madeleine.
Subsequently it IS somewhat strange, that he isn't able to describe apartment 5A ... Curtain colour wrong, shape of table wrong, non-existing bookshelf wrong ...

by russiandoll 13.04.13 9:47

Putting myself in the place of either McCann parent at 9.30 P.M. 3rd May.
Circumstances : at dinner as usual. One difference, a change in the checking routine. Up until this evening all adults have been checking only their own children.
One friend now offers to check our children as he goes to check on his own.
This holiday is the first time in a few years that our family have seen him. He has only spent any substantial amount of time in the evenings with us so far and is as good as a stranger to our children who have spent their days at a creche.
He seems a decent and reliable man, but there is a quick mental list of advantages and disadvantages we need to make, to his doing the check. We are well acquainted with him, but is he a family friend as such, and will a possibly awake child be comfortable seeing him in the dark and not alert enough to recognise him?
We have not long started dinner, we don't want to be interrupted more than by the routine checks.
It's like being in our garden here, we are very fit adults with our running and tennis. Hardly a chore for either of us to make the very short walk to 5a and back. A mild inconvenience as on every evening.
One advantage, neither my partner nor I have to leave our meal and chat with friends.
Disadvantages, multiple. Any or all of our 3 very young children might be disturbed by MO entering the apartment, might wake and be terrified by the strange voice and face. How much have they seen of him during this holiday, to become more familiar with him? If they are sleeping lightly because outside noise or something else has partially roused them , one or all might well wake up fully and see MO.
We don't want them scared and we don't want our evening to end at 9.30 as it possibly will if we have to settle back to sleep our distressed child/children [ all in same room, one crying will surely wake the others]
It makes no sense to accept his kind offer.
So why do we say yes thanks to MO ?

by Guest 13.04.13 10:45

Exactly. What we're told is obviously not what happened.

by Guest 13.04.13 10:50

First DP lurking around apt 5a, allegedly 'to help with the children' but waylaid by Kate-in-a-towel;
Then MO 'to ?? Madeleine'

Why would these gentlemen even want to look in upon somebody elses little children?

Did Gerry look in on theirs? If so: why did he do that, or rather: why didn't he, if that was such a common holiday occupation: looking after somebody elses little children? At bath/bedtime.

What were the qualities possessed by the two gentlemen causing them to be freely admitted to the McCann children at bath- and bedtime?

Causing them to want to be admitted to these small children at bath/bedtime?

Why did we not see a single one of their wives with the McCann children, during daytime, let alone during bath/bedtime?

by russiandoll 31.07.13 16:51

Although, because it
wouldn't seem, certainly
for Russell and Jane I'd be happy to check for their children because
they know me and if, you know,
they had been awake and I
went in they wouldn't be particularly, erm, you know, they wouldn't be
particularly shocked or surprised
or not know who I was,
but Gerry and Kate and their children I didn't know them so well, so I
wouldn't and certainly at the
beginning of the week
have offered to check their children or assumed that that would be okay,
it was only at the end of the
week when we seemed to
know each other better and our routines and everybody seemed to be doing
the same thing that it seemed
to be a nice thing to do
to offer to save them a trip".

will double check but recall ROB saying that he listened at apartments other than his own and occasionally checked..........implicit went inside, but I do not recall him elaborating.

End of the week..... the Thursday was the only evening MO went inside 5a.

That was 30 minutes before alarm was raised by the woman who had ok'd him entering 5a.

Interesting.

And the tapas crew are not on the list of 38?

They sure must be on some other list given this very simple fact.

by marconi 31.07.13 17:33

jd wrote:Over the years there has been many who have said that there was a 10th tapas member, and the one whose identity is being kept hidden and what the coverup is about. But at this point in time it is more internet speculation and so far nothing concrete to support this 10th Tapas member

Imo, Tapas 10 is the one who helped the McCanns to hide the body, some days later or even 24 hs later. It is the one who knew the resort better, who had a freezer, etc.
Probably he got money from the parents. The body could not stay on the beach for a longer time.