The creche enquiry

by mank 03.02.12 15:30

I'm not giving in!

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O.K. back to work now [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by kikoraton 03.02.12 17:17

Thanks, mank. I've left a comment on TTW4's page, and asked to be notified.

by Guest 03.02.12 17:41

I'm very sceptical of this blog. This photo is definitely of Sofia (not Sophie) Murat and, as far as I know, has never been claimed to be one of Madeleine. There are plenty of photos which are unlikely to be Madeleine but that's another story as we all know. Here's a link to Pamalam's page on Robert Murat and his family - this photo is included; yes the child's name is mis-spelt there too.

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I can't readily find her exact date of birth but I know it's round about October 2002 which is "hardly sharing almost identical birthdays" and I would love to see the proof that the McCanns knew the Murats before May 2007.

It's enough to set dear old Carter-Ruck a-twitching!

by kikoraton 03.02.12 20:09

, jean. I'm thinking the same about the claim that the McCs claimed...................

by uppatoffee 03.02.12 20:19

Jean Sofia's Birthday is 31 October 2002.

by Guest 03.02.12 22:20

Thanks for that Uppatoffee. So yes, hardly a near identical birthday to Madeleine (12th May 2003) and even if it was, so what? I don't know anything about this blog writer but I think that this is a wind-up.

by **tigger** 09.02.12 14:12

From Textusa - quite a long post, so I'm just taking this section from it. For the full article go to: Textusa - compare and contrast heading.
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For a start the ‘script’ for that week was written retrospectively, after the final act was ‘performed’ so therefore everything had to be written to fit what had already happened. It was also written by the ‘performers’ and the result is a play written by a committee, much of it ad libbed. The committee members had different roles to play and some didn’t even make a stage entrance, the back stage crew had some input and some players left the theatre with haste never to be seen or heard from again.
To show you what I mean let’s begin by comparing and contrasting witness statements of the cast. I’ll start with Mr Graham MacKenzie, for no particular reason although it may have been more methodical to go in alphabetical order.

Mr and Mrs MacKenzie were booked into room G31 from 30th April to 5th May and in his statement he says during their stay they used the child care facilities. When they picked up their son C*** they would chat to other parents. Why is his child not included in any of the creche lists?
We instantly have a problem because it appears he wasn’t included in someone else’s script, the person who wrote the crèche records. Compare his statement to the crèche records. But also he was only booked for a 5 night holiday from 30th April according to one list so he didn’t take advantage of the Mark Warner package deal. Although comparing and contrasting this to the Mark Warner Property Arrival list the booking was from 28th April to 5th May and his flight details show he flew from Gatwick which is part of the package deal.

He says he got to know Raj Balu from a nearby apartment and another man called Neil, I presume he is referring to Neil Berry as he and Mr Balu had also become friends, even sharing a meal together. Mr MacKenzie says that Neil and his wife booked their stay for 2 weeks but left the resort early.
Is this a deviation from the "official script" or a fact? We need to compare Mr Berry’s statement and then contrast with the room booking sheets which state Mr Berry was booked into room G606 from 28th April to 5th May then room DP01 from 5th to 12th May.
As Mr MacKenzie mentions Mr Berry and Mr Balu in his statement then I think some extracts from their statements should also be included.

by Guest 09.02.12 14:30

tigger wrote:Mr and Mrs MacKenzie were booked into room G31 from 30th April to 5th May and in his statement he says during their stay they used the child care facilities. When they picked up their son C*** they would chat to other parents. Why is his child not included in any of the creche lists?

The child MacKenzie would not appear on any of the released creche lists, because the child was only 18m old at the time. Which means they fell into a creche group called Toddler Club 1, catering for children 12m-23m old. This groups creche sheets were never released. Only Lobsters (Mini club 3-5yrs), which is Madeleine's group and Jellyfish (Toddler Club 2, 24m-3 yrs), which is the twins, were the only ones to be released.

by **tigger** 10.02.12 17:43

Stella wrote:
tigger wrote:Mr and Mrs MacKenzie were booked into room G31 from 30th April to 5th May and in his statement he says during their stay they used the child care facilities. When they picked up their son C*** they would chat to other parents. Why is his child not included in any of the creche lists?

The child MacKenzie would not appear on any of the released creche lists, because the child was only 18m old at the time. Which means they fell into a creche group called Toddler Club 1, catering for children 12m-23m old. This groups creche sheets were never released. Only Lobsters (Mini club 3-5yrs), which is Madeleine's group and Jellyfish (Toddler Club 2, 24m-3 yrs), which is the twins, were the only ones to be released.

That explains it then. I did PM you on this over a week ago, so not finding the name Mackenzie on this topic, I posted it here, hoping for an answer.

by Hummingbird 16.05.12 17:24

Hi, sorry to bring this one up again, something that always bothered me and I am sure someone on here will know the answer perhaps it is explained in KMs book!

On the 29th April I believe a Sunday the creche records show that Madeleine was left at the creche by KM at 9.45 and collected by GM at 12.15. The twins it appears were not left at their creche during that morning - now unless the creche records are missing for the morning slot why was Madeleine left and not the twins bit of a cruel thing to do that to your kids - yes love you go to the creche today we are taking Sean and Amelie for an ice cream -imagine how Madeleine would have felt about that sad

by Guest 16.05.12 20:11

Guest wrote:
sun mon tue wed thur
Lobsters 29 30 1 2 3
AM in 9.45 9.30 9.30 9.20 9.10
AM out 12.15 12.10 12.20 12.30 12.25
PM in 2.45 3.15 2.30 2.45 2.50
PM out 5.30 3.30 5.30 5.30
Jellyfish 29 30 1 2 3
AM in missing 9.20 9.20 9.10 missing
AM out missing 12.15 12.20 12.25 missing
PM in 2.35 3.25 2.30 2.40 2.45
PM out 5.30 5.20 5.20 5.20 5.25
KM signed
GM signed
Madeleine not siged out

This is a chart I have produced to show who signed the McCann children in and out that week.

Why was Madeleine not signed out in the afternoon on May 1st ?

On the 2nd of May at 12.30, Cat nanny signs Madeleine out. (in yellow above)

On the 3rd in the morning, for the first time that week Kate signs Madeleine out. Where was Gerry and what was he doing ?

Why was the twins creche sheets witheld from the DVD for the 3rd ?

If you look at the above chart you will see that the sheet is missing for the 29th April Hummingbird. Don't know if it is held back, or was never put on the DVD i.e omitted by accident.

by friedtomatoes 16.05.12 20:18

I have just seen one of the sheets where Naylors child is signed for and Madeleine being signed in was in the exact same handwriting. It certainly was. I am not going to go into the theories for this, but just to say, keeping it simple, why would it be suspicious, perhaps the mccanns were in a hurry and asked him to pop madeleines name down for them, you know, late for tennis lesson or something. Then again it could have been a nanny signing them both in?

by russiandoll 12.06.12 18:50

can anyone decipher the signatures for Ella OBrien during the week? I see ROB's initials although some of that writing looks like a person trying an imitation...it is when he does not sign for Ella, I cannot make out the other signatures.can anyone else read them? thank you

I am unable to post the relevant sheets, sorry.....means someone needs to take a look; they are at the start of this topic somewhere.

by Guest 12.06.12 18:56

Heres a couple I just posted on other thread........

candyfloss wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

No where near that amount of children as Bridget says. The above is for 3rd May, am and pm.

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Above for the 2nd May

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by david_uk 13.06.12 9:00

the most disturbing thing is how little time they wanted to spend with their young children!!!?
I dont know about anyone else , but I go on holiday with my kids to spend time with them! the best thing about going away is that I get to spend all day everyday with them!! and I miss them all the more when I have to go back to work! Sad

its one thing to let your kids go to the holiday Kids club for a couple of hours! its another to dump them in a creche the most of the time and grace them with your company for an hour or so at lunch and `bathtime`! then dump them alone in the apartment on a night! disgraceful!

by russiandoll 13.06.12 9:20

thanks for those creche sheets CF, sorry but to enlarge to a size I need to look closely, I still need to go to McCann files !

I notice a ROB signature with initials occurring more than once that looks like a person is imitating it. Makes me think these sheets were tampered with after the event. When the initials are not used but a full name, it looks like it begins with a P or R not J for Jane Tanner, if it is Russell using his name not initials the writing style looks somewhat different.

I can't find examples of ROB or JT signatures anywhere... but checked creche sheets again, greatly magnified. Looks like when a full name signed it is Jane Tanner, fancy J...
However, getting back to ROB initials, there are def signs of an imitation on more than one sheet, so am more than ever convinced sheets rewritten after the event before handed to police. why? am still trying to figure out..

by Guest 13.06.12 9:57

david_uk wrote:the most disturbing thing is how little time they wanted to spend with their young children!!!?
I dont know about anyone else , but I go on holiday with my kids to spend time with them! the best thing about going away is that I get to spend all day everyday with them!! and I miss them all the more when I have to go back to work!

its one thing to let your kids go to the holiday Kids club for a couple of hours! its another to dump them in a creche the most of the time and grace them with your company for an hour or so at lunch and `bathtime`! then dump them alone in the apartment on a night! disgraceful!

If this is right, the twins were in the creche the next day after Madeleines disappearance [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] and D. Webster took them??.............

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by russiandoll 13.06.12 9:59

sorry my last post took up so much space as it was very brief......don't know what happened there.
cannot copy and paste magnified image of creche sheets that I can only get at mccannfiles...
but there are some undated sheets. However, on those dated there appear to be imitations of ROBs initials April 30th also 2nd and 3rd May.

by russiandoll 13.06.12 10:01

yes true....the parents were really busy, remember Kate told Jane Hill from BBC..working really hard.this is a ref to their meetings after the alleged event.

by **tigger** 13.06.12 10:04

That is curious. I read here that the creche was closed on the 4th - another poster and can't remember where.

Also, Yvonne Martin said that she saw David Payne with the twins, morning of the 4th - it made her think that he was trusted by the mcCanns, very much so to have charge of the twins when they'd just lost a child.
Unless it was lunch time and he'd collected them.

by Guest 13.06.12 10:05

russiandoll wrote: yes true....the parents were really busy, remember Kate told Jane Hill from BBC..working really hard.this is a ref to their meetings after the alleged event.

Well, the parents were interviewed the next day at the Police headquarters, but surely they should have stayed in an apartment with the friends, and not taken to the creche...... surely you would not feel safe leaving them with strangers after what had happened [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] again!!

by Guest 13.06.12 10:07

tigger wrote:That is curious. I read here that the creche was closed on the 4th - another poster and can't remember where.

Also, Yvonne Martin said that she saw David Payne with the twins, morning of the 4th - it made her think that he was trusted by the mcCanns, very much so to have charge of the twins when they'd just lost a child.
Unless it was lunch time and he'd collected them.

I think someone was pondering about taking their child the next day, it may have been Bridget O'Donell, but decided to and said that the kids were all there the next day. Will have a look.

The creche sheet is for pm, so I think they (twins) only went in the afternoon.

by Guest 13.06.12 10:12

Here it is, the creche was open the next day, this from BOD.......

The next morning, we made our way to breakfast and met one of the Doctors, the one who had come round in the night. His young daughter looked up at us from her pushchair. There was no news. They had called Sky television - they didn't know what else to do. He turned away and I could see he was going to weep.

People were crying in the restaurant. Mark Warner had handed out letters informing them what had happened in the night, and we all wondered what to do. Mid-sentence, we would drift in to the middle distance. Tears would brim up and recede.

Our daughter asked us about the kiddie club that day. She had been looking forward to their dance show that afternoon. Jes and I looked at each other. My first instinct was that we should not be parted from our children. Of course we shouldn't; we should strap them to us and not let them out of our sight, ever again. But then we thought: how are we going to explain this to our daughter? Or how, if we spent the day in the village, would we avoid repeatedly discussing what had happened in front of her as we met people on the streets? What does a good parent do? Keep the children close or take a deep breath and let them go a little, pretend this was the same as any other day?
We walked towards the kiddie club. No one else was there. We felt awful, such terrible parents for even considering the idea. Then we saw, waiting inside, some of the Mark Warner nannies. They had been up most of the night but had still turned up to work that day. They were intelligent, thoughtful young women and we liked and trusted them. The dance show was cancelled, but they wanted to put on a normal day for the children. Our daughter ran inside and started painting. Then, behind us, another set of parents arrived looking equally washed out. Then another, and another. We decided, in the end, to leave them for two hours. We put their bags on the pegs and saw the one labelled "Madeleine". Heads bent, we walked away, into the guilty glare of the morning sun.

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by **tigger** 13.06.12 10:13

candyfloss wrote:
tigger wrote:That is curious. I read here that the creche was closed on the 4th - another poster and can't remember where.

Also, Yvonne Martin said that she saw David Payne with the twins, morning of the 4th - it made her think that he was trusted by the mcCanns, very much so to have charge of the twins when they'd just lost a child.
Unless it was lunch time and he'd collected them.

I think someone was pondering about taking their child the next day, it may have been Bridget O'Donell, but decided to and said that the kids were all there the next day. Will have a look.

The creche sheet is for pm, so I think they (twins) only went in the afternoon.

I think the creche sheet above is for the morning, the twins and Lily signed in by DW at 10.10 and out by DP? 12.2... as I can see when I blow it up a lot!

In June the diary records that one day 'they had to collect the twins from the creche themselves'..... it's a hard life!

by Guest 13.06.12 10:16

tigger wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
tigger wrote:That is curious. I read here that the creche was closed on the 4th - another poster and can't remember where.

Also, Yvonne Martin said that she saw David Payne with the twins, morning of the 4th - it made her think that he was trusted by the mcCanns, very much so to have charge of the twins when they'd just lost a child.
Unless it was lunch time and he'd collected them.

I think someone was pondering about taking their child the next day, it may have been Bridget O'Donell, but decided to and said that the kids were all there the next day. Will have a look.

The creche sheet is for pm, so I think they (twins) only went in the afternoon.

I think the creche sheet above is for the morning, the twins and Lily signed in by DW at 10.10 and out by DP? 12.2... as I can see when I blow it up a lot!

In June the diary records that one day 'they had to collect the twins from the creche themselves'..... it's a hard life!

Yes, you are right tigger, but at the TOP of the page it says PM session. How confusing!! Still they were all up night so I suppose they made a mistake

The creche enquiry

The creche enquiry

Re: The creche enquiry

Yet another dodgy photo

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Creche Records

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	sun	mon	tue	wed	thur
Lobsters	29	30	1	2	3

AM in	9.45	9.30	9.30	9.20	9.10
AM out	12.15	12.10	12.20	12.30	12.25
PM in	2.45	3.15	2.30	2.45	2.50
PM out	5.30	3.30		5.30	5.30


Jellyfish	29	30	1	2	3

AM in	missing	9.20	9.20	9.10	missing
AM out	missing	12.15	12.20	12.25	missing
PM in	2.35	3.25	2.30	2.40	2.45
PM out	5.30	5.20	5.20	5.20	5.25


		KM	signed
		GM	signed
		Madeleine not siged out