Where is the body?

ROSA wrote:They wanted to secure their mortgage have not since moved and Madeleines bedroom no visitors allowed a shrine their property was never searched .by the police correct me if im wrong Madeleine could of been cremated in England her ashes with the famiily if so there would no longer be a pshysical body.

Honestly Rosa, I can't see a way that a body could be cremated secretly here in the UK ... Pet crematoriums don't use sealable 'coffins', so it's obvious what is being cremated and the official paperwork etc that has to be filed for human cremation is really strict - for precisely this reason.... believe me - if I could figure out a foolproof way of doing it then my ex husband would have been ashes a long time ago [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Also ... for Puzzled .... it's a common misconception that dead bodies don't bleed. True they don't 'pump' out blood, but blood is still in a dead body and settles into the tissues at the lowest point (google post mortem staining/lividity and you will see what I mean). Any punctures in that tissue, or indeed any natural orifices, will leak blood even weeks after death - especially if the body is being moved around.

LittleMissMolly wrote: If I could figure out a foolproof way of doing it then my ex husband would have been ashes a long time ago [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I'm so glad you haven't been out for drinks with my wife! Heaven only knows what direction the conversation would take or indeed whether I'd still be alive the following day!

The Shelfstacker wrote:

LittleMissMolly wrote: If I could figure out a foolproof way of doing it then my ex husband would have been ashes a long time ago [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I'm so glad you haven't been out for drinks with my wife! Heaven only knows what direction the conversation would take or indeed whether I'd still be alive the following day! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

LOL ... my colleague and I have whiled away many a long afternoon with speculating how we might commit the perfect murder and body disposal [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Fortunately we've never come up with a foolproof plan [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Were they not afforded the luxury of a private jet in the early days when the fund was being set up?? I am sure the rich businessman (sorry forgot his name) that helped set up the fund flew them to Rome in his private jet to visit the Pope so perhaps flew them back to UK, could have transported her that way?? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Gerry McCann returned to England on June 19

.Pat Brown, Criminal Profiler

So, search in Portugal and Spain and any other place one can think of. And, yes, search in England: Maddy just might be there.

Would it really be possible for one of the McCanns to cart the body of their daughter back to England? Yes, absolutely. Because of the climate in Portugal, it is possible that should they have buried Maddy in a shallow grave in a sandy substrate, her body would have mummified. Mummification is a desiccation of the corpse where the fluids drain into the ground and the rest of the body dries up. There is relatively little odor associated with a mummified body.
If this occurred, the body would be easier to transport; it would be lighter and drier and lacking the horrible smell of a corpse. Such a body could easily be placed in a sealed bag and placed in a suitcase. Screening of stowed luggage is not likely to uncover a body inside of a suitcase and when the traveler reaches the other end and goes through customs, they enter the "Have nothing to declare line," and just walk through (unless they exhibit concerning behavior that raises a red flag and launches a search of the luggage). As to the McCanns, I seriously doubt they were searched upon arrival, not with all the press surrounding them and the mass of curious onlookers, reporters, and VIPS lurking about.

IF the McCanns were involved and IF Maddy's body was brought home, when this would have happened is another question. Unfortunately, only those inside the organization would (we hope) know the truth about the McCann's movements. For example, Gerry McCann returned to England on June 19, just four days after an exhaustive search for Madeleine was called off. This search was in an arid, desolate area (the kind of climate which might encourage the mummification of a body) near a town called Odiaxere. A letter from an unknown sender had stated she could be found there in a shallow grave. Four days later, Gerry is on a plane home. I don't know if he took any luggage with him, anything more than a rucksack (which I don't know the size of). He only stayed for the day, purportedly to attend some meetings. He claims he had his wallet stolen while getting money from an ATM and later that evening, the wallet was mailed back to him. A rather peculiar story that I wonder might not be a cover for the reason he was late to his meetings; he ostensibly spent the time calling credit card companies to cancel his credit cards.

If I were the police investigator, I would follow up this lead. I would want to know what luggage Gerry took with him to England. I would try to see if there was any proof to the wallet theft story. I would find out if he had any "alone" time on the trip. I would find out if he made those phone calls to the credit card companies and if he really got money from an ATM. I would find out exactly where he was that day through any evidence of his movements (phone call tracking, receipts, witnesses, etc.). I would want to know if anyone met him, especially anyone who he could have transferred a package from one suitcase to another.

I would check all the McCann trips and look for possibly ways for them to transport a body away from Portugal. And, again, I would look for all possible places within Portugal or neighboring countries as possible places to hide or bury a body. I would check the possibility of a burial at sea.

If I were the Portuguese police, I would be following all leads, even those that lead away from the McCanns. It never hurts to be thorough. The point is to recover Madeleine, dead or alive, and bring justice to those that hurt her. In the end, it doesn't matter which theory is correct (except as an educational tool for future investigations). It only matters that the case is solved..

LittleMissMolly wrote:

ROSA wrote:They wanted to secure their mortgage have not since moved and Madeleines bedroom no visitors allowed a shrine their property was never searched .by the police correct me if im wrong Madeleine could of been cremated in England her ashes with the famiily if so there would no longer be a pshysical body.

Honestly Rosa, I can't see a way that a body could be cremated secretly here in the UK ... Pet crematoriums don't use sealable 'coffins', so it's obvious what is being cremated and the official paperwork etc that has to be filed for human cremation is really strict - for precisely this reason.... believe me - if I could figure out a foolproof way of doing it then my ex husband would have been ashes a long time ago [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Also ... for Puzzled .... it's a common misconception that dead bodies don't bleed. True they don't 'pump' out blood, but blood is still in a dead body and settles into the tissues at the lowest point (google post mortem staining/lividity and you will see what I mean). Any punctures in that tissue, or indeed any natural orifices, will leak blood even weeks after death - especially if the body is being moved around.

Hi LittleMissMolly

I've been looking for ages for a picture of corpse banding, but could not find one. I would like to use it in the library to explain the changes in hair that occur after death and to ask the question why the FSS never tested any of the hairs found in the car for it.

Can you help with locating a good example of this please ?

Hi Stella ... I can't find any pictures of the phenomenon either, but it is something I only became aware of during the Casey Anthony Trial [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It certainly isn't something which could be viewed with the naked eye, it apparently doesn't take place in every hair.... and even when it does take place it only affects the roots.

Given that the FSS had to use LCN techniques to obtain enough DNA material from the car boot to test, I've always assumed that any hair which was recovered didn't include any root 'bulbs' (as these are an excellent source of DNA which would have rendered LCN redundant).

Sorry not to be more help [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

ufercoffy wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

i think 1 place the police may want to search is maybe the urn type of orniment in the above picture , maybe a shrine kind of gesture on the side at home next to her ashes, so still close to the family , ive seen this pic a few times but when ufercoffy posted it in this topic sent a shiver down my spine.

You might be right the McCann Mansion might hold its own secrets M bedroom a shrine and off limits the photo of M next to a urn and a flower is this the final resting place

Abstract
Weathering or long-term burial may cause profound morphological and histological changes in hair, which may affect the results of forensic and archaeological investigations. We therefore used ultramicroscopic techniques to assay the changes in weathering hair shafts caused by burial for up to 25 years. We found that the middle portion of hair shafts from living individuals shows the expected histological hair structure, while the cuticle layer was absent from the terminal portion of the same hairs, which may be due to the increased weathering experienced by the terminal portion. In hair samples taken 5 years after death, no significant changes in morphology were observed. By 15 years after death, however, we observed losses in various layers of the hair, including the cuticle layer. At 25 years after death, hair shafts showed a number of pores extending into the medulla, with only some hair shafts retaining their cortical layers. To our knowledge, this is the first ultramicroscopic study on weathering of hair for up to 25 years after death. Our results may therefore provide a basis for similar studies in the fields of forensic science and physical anthropology

niknaks08 wrote:

ufercoffy wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

i think 1 place the police may want to search is maybe the urn type of orniment in the above picture , maybe a shrine kind of gesture on the side at home next to her ashes, so still close to the family , ive seen this pic a few times but when ufercoffy posted it in this topic sent a shiver down my spine.

Don't get me wrong - I believe that the McCanns know exactly what happened to Madeleine, but in all fairness I do a lot of work with parents who's young children/babies have died and been buried ... and setting up a 'shrine' or memory corner at home is something that a lot of them do and which I recommend to them to do.

Their child is buried elsewhere of course, but many bereaved parents worry that they will forget their child's face or that others will brush their existence under the carpet and they really need to feel their child's 'presence' within their home, so a shrine like the one shown can really help them to feel that their little one is still 'with them'.... it's a great tool in helping the healing process

The urn may well contain little items that were Madeleine's ... lots of bereaved parents keep 'memory boxes' so that they can take bits out during private moments of remembrance - indeed midwives dealing with stillbirths these days make sure that the parents have plenty of little items (like hospital wristbands, locks of hair, hand and footprints etc) for just this purpose.

So, for me at least, this little shrine isn't suspicious at all in and of itself - it's use as I've described ( to keep the memories alive and to bring the absent child into the heart of the family) is equally applicable to a dead child or one that has been abducted.

hey missmolly :) i agree a shrine is nothing unusal, i have a friend who lost a child (by that i mean passed away not as in lost cant find) she has what i suppose you could call a shrine area in her home to. it was just that when this topic came up and then photo posted , i noticed the urn type orniment , i dont think it would b the kind to keep precious keepsakes in as the neck of the urn looks very small and each time you wanted to look at these items you would have to turn it upside down and shake out ,(my friend keeps her keepsakes in a lovely box with tissue paper to protect them). just struck me as an unusal thing to have if this was a maddie shrine, unless it does have a connection, also it sometimes seems the mccans release worrying photos on purpose ....(the makeup one) could this photo be yet another goading one from the mccanns , a bit like a criminal returning to the scene. just my opinion but imagine if all this time maddies remains/ashes have been sat at home on the mantelpiece !! nothing would suprise me with the mccanns and co. i just hope the day comes they have the decency and respect for madeleine to confess to the truth so she can finally rest in peace. :)

again just my observation , but the wooden train spelling out madeleine , the urn behind is in the centre of that name train , could just be a coinsidence or could be to identify something?

Could be saying l _ e add i to mean in side the urn
i dont think they would leave her body in Portugal they would want her body close to them that is my view

LittleMissMolly wrote:
Also ... for Puzzled .... it's a common misconception that dead bodies don't bleed. True they don't 'pump' out blood, but blood is still in a dead body and settles into the tissues at the lowest point (google post mortem staining/lividity and you will see what I mean). Any punctures in that tissue, or indeed any natural orifices, will leak blood even weeks after death - especially if the body is being moved around.

OK, thanks for that. I've always found the hire car the most puzzling aspect of this case. Out of interest, I suppose the police checked who had the hire car on the night of the disappearance?

Also, I'd like to know, after death does the chemical composition of the blood change, and would this make any difference to a sniffer dog?And is there a point at which it stops producing cadaverine? Would freezing or mummification make any difference to this (as I know some people have suggested the body would mummify if it was buried)?

The police checked out all previous hirers of the car

In regards to blood ... at a certain stage of the decomposition stage it does start to change, in that the red blood cells break down, but that wouldn't make a difference to a blood dog and I'm not sure if it would even be detectable with chemical testing ... after all shed blood must begin to break down too?

Cadaverine is produced in flesh that is breaking down by bacteria... the whole process starts in the stomach and intestines straight after death, when the bacteria in there start to multiply and then take over. Basically it will continue to be produced until either the flesh has all drained and dried out (mummification) or the body is skeletonised - even freezing doesn't stop it, although it slows it down. We do sometimes get bodies in which have been frozen and the body fluids from them are really watery - kind of like meat from a supermarket if you see what I mean?

LittleMissMolly wrote:The police checked out all previous hirers of the car

In regards to blood ... We do sometimes get bodies in which have been frozen and the body fluids from them are really watery - kind of like meat from a supermarket if you see what I mean?

Thats an ugghh moment I think. :puke:

Still I get your point thanks for sharing

I remember Molly from the 3As and am very glad she's here giving us her expert opinion

Kate said she had been in contact 6 corpse in the UK what if one of those was Madeleine and really had died at their uk home but they wanted to cover that up it is also possible that they can bring her body to Portugal to the apartment then dispose of it it straight away another theory

honeybunch wrote:

LittleMissMolly wrote:The police checked out all previous hirers of the car

In regards to blood ... We do sometimes get bodies in which have been frozen and the body fluids from them are really watery - kind of like meat from a supermarket if you see what I mean?

Thats an ugghh moment I think. :puke:

Still I get your point thanks for sharing

Sorry Hon ((((HUG)))) I do tend to forget sometimes that this kind of stuff isn't part of most people's everyday experience

ROSA wrote:Kate said she had been in contact 6 corpse in the UK what if one of those was Madeleine and really had died at their uk home but they wanted to cover that up it is also possible that they can bring her body to Portugal to the apartment then dispose of it straight away another theory

1 I don't think it was Kate who spoke about the corpses. I think it was a relative
2 That is a several theories too far ! Occam's Razor would be blunted on that one.

i think if she was alive on the 28th when she arrived in 5a she then died on the same date 28th it makes sense to me when you look closely at the creche records
That is why i dont agree with Pats theory that Madeleine went missing on the 3 may

ROSA wrote:i think if she was alive on the 28th when she arrived in 5a she then died on the same date 28th it makes sense to me when you look closely at the creche records. That is why I don't agree with Pats theory that Madeleine went missing on the 3 may

My problem with that is that it involves far too many people in the conspiracy.
It is not just Occam's razor, but the sheer impossibility of getting so many people to tell the same untruths, and for not one of them to break ranks and sell the story, even after 4 years. The first one who does so will make a tabloid fortune. Surely the creche girls could use that money, and I doubt if the "Fund" is being used to buy their silence.

PeterMac wrote:
Surely the creche girls could use that money.

Only one nanny was responsible for Madeleine, for the whole week, Catriona Baker.

If the child that pitched up for the first time in creche on the morning of the 29th was handed over to her as just Madeleine or Maddie, how would Catriona Baker know that the little girl she has just met was not Kate and Gerry's biological daughter ?

Did the creche ask to see every child's passport?

Excluding the tapas pact (x12), how many other people would know who the real Madeleine McCann was ? = 0

How many people had close contact with the substitute Madeleine? = 1, Catriona Baker

Just one person was all they would have needed to deceive. Not many.

Then came the disaster recovery plan. After the alarm was raised, release as many different aged photo's as possible to confuse. Make an appeal to other guests to send in ALL of their holiday pictures to see if the other Madeleine appeared on any of them. Even Bridget O'Donnell couldn't be sure if Madeleine was at tennis, all little girls in pink !!!

Can you even say for certain that the Tapas friends could all definitely say the child on the holiday was Madeleine? They didn't all live near her and may not have seen the child for several months. And when they met up in the past, were the children dumped somewhere - did they spend much time together as families or was it the adults socialising?


Madeline like any child of her age would have been growing, changing. If a friend I didn't see that often wanted to fool me she probably could providing the child produced was similar to the child I would have seen last time, and as I say it would depend if my earlier contacts with the child were superficial or I actually had a relationship with the child. You would just assume the mother knew her own child. I remember how one of my children changed a lot in a few months - going from having a very chubby face(she was not overall chubby) to a much slimmer face. It made her look very different but it was the same child! Personally I have a very bad memory for faces so I would be easy to fool.