Let's Ask The Dogs .... Again!

by Verdi 17.06.23 13:45

A very interesting member theory to get the forum back on track .... The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann.

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Take it away hat

by Guest 17.06.23 13:55

let's ask the dogs again!

there are some questions i had myself about the findings behind the blue sofa. i am not okay with calling it simply blood because both dogs reacted to that area. the reason given was about one was a blood specialist highly trained and capable dog, only reacting to blood that in advance existed of in situ dried blood. remember this dog could even signal to blood on objects if washed after deposition, only when it had the chance to dry up first in situ.
the other dog was said in his first stages of training also trained on blood deposits of that same kind, but after that was retrained and specialized in recognition of human cadaver scent compositions.

let’s leave it for now by that about these 2 dogs themselves.

i want to go back to the area they marked and put some more forensic insights to that area.
forensics are a young science and lots have to be worked out and the field is growing each day. it often takes a bit of extra time before publications are also available for free to all members of the public.

first let’s take a look at that area, by using the pictures from the pj files.

this links goes to the forensic index articles in the files that are translated, it is a index many times overlooked, but has far more information than the short list on the starting page to the translations.
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this link goes to some pictures of the area near the blue sofa in 5a.
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for this write up i like to look at the type of flooring, it consist of a hard surface, or better hard baked tiles with a withish glazing on it, i have taken from the reportings that the tiles are laid on a concrete base flooring, in a bedding of grout, the spacing between the tiles also are filled in with a grout like substance.

from that we can expect the hard baked and glazed tiles would not be able to take on much with the consistency of fluids, but the grout is traditional more or less existing of a mixture of grout particles with cavities between them.

from the reporting of the officers who have worked with the floor, we can assume they found something of a fluid substance, possibly blood was to be recognized in the grout in the spacings and even under the hard baked and glazed tiles. we can not look into their minds, so for this write up let’s take their observation for granted.

let’s take the dogs back in for a moment. it is accepted that dogs can be used to find smells we can not recognize ourselves, and we have some problems with that, dogs can not talk, and we can not guarantee we have the knowledge and techniques to answer for the dogs.

dogs also can not tell how the material they are trained on gets there, and we can not train them to sniff out a lot of detail. also dogs are not able to tell much about when the material was left there.

so even the best dogs, used under most controlled circumstances, do not tell us who left the material there and not when it was left there. probably that lies because we lack in communications to these dogs, not the dogs themselves.

i do know this area and the deposits found in that area are part of many , often even very different arguments and discussions. most looks to be about how long it has to be there before it was long enough for a dog and these specific dogs could recognize it within their area of scope. blood and blood finding dog has little critics, but the cadaver dog gets a lot.

but are we truly looking in the right manner to that area. we often looks to like it most to use it to put a timeline from these findings, and i do think we could be looking to it in the wrong way.

so to get an alert of a cadaver dog and the specific cadaver dog, he would react to all and everything that decomposes from a human body, blood, bone , everything possible that can decompose and is human. do not make a mistake, a human can survive a lot of take offs in bodily materials before it ends up dead. if you, today chop off a piece of a finger and put it somewhere, that still will decompose, while the rest of you is still living on.
and a lot of these kind of dogs are also trained on human remains, that are just former parts of bodies of living people. full decomposing body modes have in most countries far to much ethical musings to assist better training aids for these dogs, but most trainers are able to use their own network for getting enough suited material or seek training in countries that had better suited regulations.

why is true decomposing human obligatory, because we do know from the scientifical studies, that the smell consist of many different compositions, so a simple can of cadaverine would not work efficient, cadaverine is only one of the volatile compounds that is part of the cadaver scent. and there are much more and the change in how much, or when they are there during decomposition of a human body. cadaverine is also one that we know now can be very late at the scene and like to be together with the body. cadaverine was only with one other, just the first two who have been discovered as being part of the scent of death, or more modern, cadaver scent.

cadaver scent is still not just math. dogs have little problem with it, we have and our techniques are still not as good as the dogs. the other thing is to make of that a usable tool a lot of work is done under the very controllable circumstances of a nice laboratorium.
and that has to be translated to a field that can not be of the same stance.

let’s go back in time before we got a dogs in, more around the time the deposit could have been made. if we accept that the findings have a relation to an event around madeleine mccann, the earliest date it could get there is 28 april 2007. the latest date must be set around 23.00 hours on the evening of may 3, 2007.

my problem arises after a possible direct deposition time, the most likely true deposition time does not even matter that much. if i have to accept it is a relict of a deposition of human blood, i have to get from there and suppose there must have been fluid blood around. so at one moment in time there must have been a living body that still was bleeding out, or a dead body that had leakage or seeping out. the scenario that after a fall and a trauma to the head from a fall with contact with an object during the fall and/or the contact with the hard baked tiles, could explain a situation that a human can leave blood or fluids from the body that also contains blood on the surface of that kind of flooring. if still alive for some time, or after death. the scenario ‘ stayed alive’ does not fit in well in this case.

there is some unknown time needed and enough bodily fluids consistent with blood or others with blood, to seep through the grout in between the hard tiles and even seep under these tiles. usually it will ask for testing such an hypothesis for how much time really is needed to make that happen. but if we accept for this write up, there was a bodily fluid containing also blood left behind on that floor , that indeed seeped into small cavities in the grout between the tiles and even under the tiles, we can look into that.

what did the dogs get to work on, that scene is to see on the pictures and video of their work. there was no body there. so all information the dogs could deliver was marketing and alerting to blood deposit dried in situ and relict cadaver scent.

do both dogs only could have reacted on the blood dried in situ in that area? yes and no.
there is a slight chance it is yes, because both had the training in that line. but no is even very likely, the area is not small enough to discriminate for the scent they alerted on. it is big enough to let them both alert to their own speciality. the alert of one of them does not prove there was only scent of in situ dried blood, both alerts are even valid if we say they reacted both to their speciality, one to dried blood, the other to cadaver scent.

we are technically still not that able to make a hard declaration about what the two dogs made to bring out their alert. we can of course ask the handler if he knows from how both are trained if the form of alert is specific enough to decide about only blood dried in situ or both.
look up in the files all reporting of the handler, and make up your own mind about his answer.

the handler puts only one disclaimer in, and he is right in doing so, that we can only put juridical stance on the alerts if it leads to a kind of finding that we can actually support with techniques. no one can talk for the dogs, but they are a very good tool to lead us to evidence that can talk for them, and be of assistance in the police investigation and after that maybe in a court of law. we are getting better at that kind of work, but still these dogs are better than men. it are still the humans who are the losers, not the dogs.

and it is such an easy question to these dogs, do you sniff were you are trained on, yes or no.

but there is another problem. there is the debate about how long a cadaver must be lying about before it makes enough cadaver scent from decomposition and reaches the threshold of the canine nose.
i want to ask a complementary question, and that is also about a bit of a problem i have with a lot of discussion. my question is, do there really have been a specific time that a body was there lying about, i do think not.

if in this situation was indeed seeping or leaking of bleeding from said body, i do think these are also human remains, and it is known these bodily fluids do have their own decomposing, into much the same components as a full body will have.

and even if the body would be removed, if there was deposit into the cavities between the grout and enough to seep under the hard tiles, that means there would be material left behind, that would decompose. the signs of bodily fluids in the grout and under the tiles i have to trust the reporting officers, it was not a so called marginal find. not just a speck of two, but visible by the naked eye.

even when that surface was cleaned from bodily fluids there could have been enough to start decomposition. even there is a chance because the surface was cleaned in between the time they left behind and the dogs signaling, that the fluid used to clean the surface, also kept that decomposition in a more active state, it simply could miss the chance to dry out, drying that could stop further decomposition.

also because of the contact during cleaning, and the not uncommon practice of ending of a wet cleaning round near a outside door, that disposing of that cleaning water, that would have each time gotta freshen up in decomposition scents was done just over the balcony, it is a very dry country, so disposing of watery fluids even with household cleaning products, or soap in it throwing out on some plants would be fairly common practice.

household cleaning products containing bleach are why the use of luminol on hard tiled floors are often not usable, because bleach stains equal to blood relics.

and that disposing could have lead to the faint alert under the balcony of the parents' room balcony in that flower bed.

my hypothesis in this matter is, that bodily fluids, containing blood or even serum from blood could have their very own decomposition cycle, and on itself can be enough to provide the cadaver dog enough scents to react too. this could mean the time the body itself was around matters far less than we often understand. i do think we do not have to hang up on the presence of a body to get to the threshold of enough cadaver scent from said body and use that to put it in a timeline.

still based on the reports of the police officers the relicts in the grout and under the tiles have not been a marginal sample, the location within 5a, does not present a most logical place for living people that have a bleeding wound from shaving, or a simple nose bleed to be standing around leaking blood out. other contributions like from a maintenance person, or handy man, cleaner is less likely. nothing surfaced from recent tile laying, large renovation activity, or dead on that scene of others.

there are after 2007 a lot of new studies done, one tells about a correct result of a scent dog on blood seeped into concrete in an outside environment after it stayed a month out in the elements. also relics of blood between freshly deposited and up to 6 months have been proven traceable by these same kinds of dogs.

so to only keep looking from a whole body and times of death, if there are deposits of blood or bodily fluids left behind, that could be another explanation why a good quality scent dog still will recognize the cadaver scent. the decomposition of blood is very well documented by now.

the result could be that it opens up other timelines in crimes, where the body has not stayed behind, or only for a short while was there.

if such a event happened, as in the blood left behind as reason why the dog ands dogs reacted, it still is an open question if that could resulted in other findings, like the possibility of transfer of air to parts of the parents bedroom, it would highly unlikely it also contaminated objects later left in the closet in the parents, or on objects stored in the hired car. none of these objects would be long enough in 5a. most will have left at a time during the night from 3 to 4 may 2007.

by Verdi 17.06.23 16:11

onehand wrote:
this link goes to some pictures of the area near the blue sofa in 5a.
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by Verdi 17.06.23 16:43

I'm trying to locate the Portuguese police examination of Ocean Club apartment 5a to weave into this work. as the case slowly but surely fades into oblivion it's becoming increasingly more difficult to locate important information. The search archives seem to favour press and media reports over and above factual documented information.

waiting

This might appear useless in itself but bear with me, I don't want to leave anything out if it could correlate with more relevant information..

Outros Apensos I, Vol 1 Page 67
01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_67

Date: 2007-08-01

Service Information

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, Dr Amaral

From: Inspector Joao Direito

Subject: Collection of eventual vestiges

I bring to your knowledge and following superior orders that today at about 20.00 the Assistant Specialists from the LPC Fernando Viegas and Lino Rodrigues, after seeing the recorded images from the sniffer dog inspection carried out on 31-07-2007 in Apartment 5 A of the Ocean Club Resort, duly explained in the report adjoining the inspection, proceeded to collect the tiles where the dogs used in the exercise signalled the eventual existence of blood vestiges as well as the presence of a cadaver in this same site.

The tiles in question were taken from the flooring with the aim of preserving the eventual vestiges existing there, in order to be subjected for competent laboratory examination.

The procedures were filmed in their totality with the aim of illustrating the way in which the lifting of the tiles was done and the tools that were used, thereby enabling forensic scientists to have a better perception of the circumstances inherent to the action taken. This resulted in the recording of two video cassettes (mini Dv) which are attached.

The LPC officers will prepare the corresponding report.

Signed

Inspector Direito

by Verdi 17.06.23 17:13

08 Processos Vol VIII Pages 2213 - 2214
08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2213

08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2214

Fax

Urgent

Ref: 640

Date: 13 August 2007

To: Scientific Police Laboratory. Crime Scene.

Addendum to Fax 638, 10th August

In addendum to our fax mentioned above we inform you of the means of treatment to be given to the vestiges/articles collected.

01 August 2007

Conditioned and sent to British laboratory (accompanied by the SPL).
1. Mosaics from the floor of the living room of apartment 5 A, OC.
2. Bushes from the garden of apartment 5 A, OC.

Conditioned and to preserved at SPL:
3. Fibres.
4. Hairs.

04 August 2007

Conditioned and sent to British laboratory (accompanied by the SPL).
5. Vestiges, eventually biological.

06 August 2007

Conditioned and sent to British laboratory (accompanied by the SPL).
6. Vestiges, eventually biological.
7. Vestiges/fibres.

With compliments

Chief Inspector

Tavares de Almeida

by Guest 17.06.23 18:16

i put the link to the forensic index in there , because i do think many never really looked much into it.

i do read also a lot on other sources, for me personally everything that helps to look again or from another angle, to it all can brings out something. but much to often it is only disappointing, this week again, someone got out about the forensic cleaning of 5a.

every one can take a look in the pj files, there are different sources, you even can try to get a own copy from portugal, it would not be different, than the mccann pj files from pamalam, and in todays world you do not have to trust others, there are apps that can translate text from pictures, okay is is a google product, i do like the site from pamalam very much, easy to navigate, translations are more than sufficient, the originals are directly near them, so you can do a simple check by typing the text into deepl and if you are very distrustful, use some others too, translations are not math.

but only if you have not been reading the files itself, you can get the idea that 5a was in any way or manner forensically cleaned, because it was not. it only tell you are a lazy person, who uses observations right or even very wrong of others. i think such approaches deserves their own proverb, i think german sandcastle building fits nicely.

even the work of the cleaning ladies was very suboptimal, probably because of their bosses who instructed them, but if you do read up in the forensic reports in this case, you can never dare to think something was good cleaned in a standard manner, and certainly not in a way that can be called forensically cleaned.

forensics never give all the answers, and often we, as in everyone, are not able to look into specific aspects as much as everyone would like, it still is pretty young science, but also quite populair so there are each year fresh youngsters out looking into questions, usable for a thesis, the best growing into many good publications.
all need to get implemented in the world of police investigations, there is so much progress each year, but you need often a bit of luck about just that little bit you actually have a need of yesterday.

there is much to suspect the pj and the portuguese forensic service have stored a lot of the samples of parts thereof, so the only thing this case needs is a true review, who just can start from the case itself, this case can be solved, if it also leads to a conviction is very questionable. still i dare to think the public can live with that. as long as the answers are there.

by Verdi 17.06.23 20:58

Yes, I think I've exhausted all sources of information where the name Madeleine McCann is the focus.

I prefer the PJ files, it is a concise compendium of the recorded documentation of the original Portuguese police investigation - and of course Mr Amaral's summary of the investigation contained in his published book. For my purposes the PJ files are the most reliable in terms of truth, without embellishment passed down by hearsay and misinterpretation.

Pamalam's gig is brilliant in many respects and the only forum, apart from CMOMM, to remain intact over the years.

I know where to go for case information and such like, my only complaint is the fact that mccannfiles is no longer maintained, so it's nigh on impossible to quickly find what I'm looking for. Certainly not interested in the many bizarre theories spread far and wide over the years, my aim has always been to rid the forum of baseless theorising - it's not productive.

But I digress ....