Re: Do you believe something happened earlier than May 3rd ? If so, how did the McCanns manage to deceive everyone at the creche?

by **HiDeHo** 05.02.18 0:46

An extract from the Comparison Timetables for the week for 2pm - 3pm

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They claimed to have stayed at the beach for 20 mins Paddled and ate Ice Creams and Kates Diary claims they bought sunglasses on the way back and dropped the children off at their creches

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The diagram of events according to Catriona claims KATE dropped Maddie off at 2.50 and the children went to the beach at 3.30pm until 4.30pm NOTE: Keep in mind that Kirst Maryan claims to have taken Maddie to the beach on one of the afternoons before taking them to the Tapas for high tea (statement posted above)

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by **HiDeHo** 05.02.18 1:57

I find this interesting...

It needs to be confirmed of course, but it appears that they stayed by the pool after 1.30pm Tuesday (putting on protective creams) and then took the children to the creche until 5 -5.30

Can anyone confirm anything else from this Diagram?

Ill get there in the end but it would be easier if I knew Portuguese :)

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by **sharonl** 05.02.18 8:41

HiDeHo

Look back at my previous post. This is what Kate says happened but it doesn't tie in with the crèche records and what Cat says.

Why the rush to buy sunglasses on the way back? It was raining.

by Doug D 05.02.18 15:02

Sunglasses purchase was important to KM as it ‘proved’ that the last photo couldn’t have been taken earlier than the Tuesday afternoon as he didn’t have any!

by **HiDeHo** 05.02.18 17:53

Tuesday afternoon is probably the most interesting of the drop off schedules and helps explain the purpose of this thread.

From the statements (see above timetable) they claim to have gone to the beach, bought 5 ice creams (5? Attempt to establish all the children were there?) and stopped off for sunglasses (to establish the last photo was taken AFTER Tuesday?) They claim to have stayed there 20 mins.

I have always questioned the coincidence of Ice Creams on the beach followed by (according to records) Gerry dropping of Maddie at 2.30 AND Kate dropping off twins at 2.30 (10 mins away from Maddies creche) and then Maddie beiing taken BACK to the beach for ice creams (I feel sure there is a connection as to why the ice cream comment but haven't figured it out yet)

Catriona's early statements to be interpreted in a very 'generic' way referring to a routine for the week that covered all days. HOWEVER, in April 2008 when she gave her rogatory interview she was there over the course of a few hours and was allowed to be reminded of her original interviews and CHANGE THEM!

We, therefore, do not know exactly what portions of her original statements were changed (and being AFTER her visit to Rothley in November...maybe also at the Secret Rothley Meeting... where I believe the discussions included 'reminders' of what happened that week)

Thanks Sharon for referring to Kates book (I often forget to check that but 'quotes' so just as important as a statement imo)

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So Kate says they put them in creche for last hour and half (meaning 3.15 before they left the creche to walk to the tapas or 4pm before they were picked up?)

What I found particularly interesting was something I had not heard of before which was included in the Diagram above. Just a Google translation of my 'guess' of the text.

Google translation from Diagram for Tuesday lunchtime wrote:'After lunch around 1:30 p.m., the children stayed by the pool of the club for the parents for about 45 mins where they were to be placed in protective creams'

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IN REFERENCE TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD...

With all the above in mind, and with the likelihood that Maddie was not there, HERE IS MY SUGGESTION

Gerry 'supposedly' dropped off Maddie at 2.30pm
Catriona wrote in (at some point) that RoB dropped off Ella AT THE SAME TIME.

Is it possible that only ONE child was dropped off?

Then to the pick up...

There is NO notation of Gerry picking up Maddie but RoB picked up Ella.

Is it POSSIBLE that ONE child (Ella?)was dropped off and the SAME CHILD (Ella?) was picked up?

ALSO, possibly worthy of note, that the PJ analysis of that day was not released in the files

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by mezzyd 05.02.18 21:04

HiDeHo, it looks to me as if the PJ may have constructed the diagram based on Kate's statement of 4th May in which she described the daily routine:
" After lunch, at around 1.30pm, the children spend time close to the club's swimming pool, supervised by the parents, for about 45 minutes, where they play and have sun cream applied."
Rotina = routine.
The diagram is not showing up very clearly to me, but perhaps it is the case that the PJ were not referring particularly to the Tuesday, but assuming from Kate's statement that this was every day, unless stated otherwise.

by polyenne 08.02.18 11:02

I find the whole shenanigans almost beyond comprehension. Is there anyone else with the following mindset ?

That the weeks "holiday" included some nefarious goings-on that COULD result in an unfortunate situation/accident. Thus, in the murky world government/spooks etc, there was always a Plan B should the worst happen.

It is my opinion, based on all the current research, that Madeleine met her demise on Sunday or Monday and, even with 4 days until the "abduction" scenario, I just cannot for the life of me comprehend the sheer complexity of the cover-up, the assets moved into place, the layering of the misinformation.

Yes, I accept that some manipulation of the original information either to fit an evolving scenario or to further reinforce the abduction theory is possible but they've done such a damn fine job of it.

Which is why, even with the power of the internet, we are still picking over the morsels almost 11 years later.

by **Jill Havern** 08.02.18 11:13

polyenne wrote:I find the whole shenanigans almost beyond comprehension. Is there anyone else with the following mindset ?

That the weeks "holiday" included some nefarious goings-on that COULD result in an unfortunate situation/accident. Thus, in the murky world government/spooks etc, there was always a Plan B should the worst happen.

It is my opinion, based on all the current research, that Madeleine met her demise on Sunday or Monday and, even with 4 days until the "abduction" scenario, I just cannot for the life of me comprehend the sheer complexity of the cover-up, the assets moved into place, the layering of the misinformation.

Yes, I accept that some manipulation of the original information either to fit an evolving scenario or to further reinforce the abduction theory is possible but they've done such a damn fine job of it.

Which is why, even with the power of the internet, we are still picking over the morsels almost 11 years later.

It's almost as if this was planned before the "I'm not here to f***ing enjoy myself" holiday.

Which has always been my opinion.

I'm going under here again.... hide

eta: I should add that it's not just Gerry's comment that makes me think that. In fact it's not even that comment at all that makes me think it was pre-planned.

by Verdi 08.02.18 12:55

From another angle..

12 Outros Apensos Vol XII Annex 59

PAGE 59

Diagram of Events 59
Day 01-05-2007

Gerald McCann

Kids Club

ROUTINE yesterday she received Madeleine at 09.10, Madeleine was handed over by her father. She looked after Madeleine from Sunday 29-04-2007 daily and until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 â€“ 9.10.00

Beach

Catriona told us that the only days that they went to the beach was on Tuesday in the afternoon (1st May 2007) between 15.30 and 16.30 and on the following day Wednesday at the same time.
Catriona Baker page 870
01-05-2007 15.30.00

Kate Marie Healy

Kids Club

ROUTINE she handed Madeleine over to her mother at 12.25. She looked after Madeleine from Sunday 29-04-2007, daily and until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 12.25.00

Kids Club
ROUTINE she received Madeleine again from her mother at 14.50. She looked after Madeleine daily from Sunday 29-04-2007 until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 14.50.00

Kids Club
ROUTINE she handed Madeleine over at 17.30. She looked after Madeleine daily from Sunday 29-04-2007 until yesterday, always for the same hours.
Catriona Baker page 88
01-05-2007 17.30.00

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by Verdi 08.02.18 13:03

mezzyd wrote:....it looks to me as if the PJ may have constructed the diagram based on Kate's statement of 4th May in which she described the daily routine:

There can be no other acceptable explanation - where else could the PJ have got such information. At the beginning, the entire investigation was based on the McCanns and their friends version of events - and there was the problem.

by Verdi 08.02.18 14:55

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It stands to reason that the outdoor activities would have to be adjusted according to weather conditions , the children are hardly likely to be taken to the beach or the grass or the swimming pool or the tennis courts, if it was wissing with rain or freezing cold.

I venture to suggest, the weekly activities sheet was only a rough roster subject to change according to weather, child attendance etc.

by Verdi 08.02.18 15:24

Mark Warner childcare leavers highlighted in green..

Rhiannon Groves
Elizabeth Mills
Mark shutt
Sarah-Jayne Tily

All four arrived at the Ocean Club on 21st March 2007 and were schedulted to leave on 7th November 2007, neither of them had responsibility for the Lobster club.

The leaving date for the majority of childcare workers was 7th November 2007. Catriona Baker visited the McCanns home in Rothley in November 2007 by their invitation - apparently, although I don't think the precise date has ever been established, an educated guess would be around the time of the Rothley Court Hotel conclave.

Was Catriona Baker really shipped off to another resort a week or so after Madeleine McCann's alledged disappearance - has there ever been any official source to confirm the veracity of this claimed early departure? It appears rather a coincidence that Baker's contract was due to end on 7th November 2007 and within days, she was visiting the McCanns and their home. How did they know how or where to contact Baker?

During her rogatory interview, Baker claims to have been moved from the Ocean Club a week or so after Madeleine disappeared, as she claims to have privately visited the McCanns 'to see how they were getting on' in November 2007. I believe her departure from the Ocean Club was mentioned by the UK press many moons ago - that can't be considered an official souirce in any way shape or form.

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thinking

by **HiDeHo** 08.02.18 17:41

The date on Catriona pics establishes she was there around the time of the Rothley Secret Meeting. Just in time for her (and others?) to be guided as to what to say in their rogatories.

In Catrionas case she was able (in April 2008) to remind herself of what was in her original statements and change them.

What you read from her original statements are not necessarily what she said in 2007.

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by **sharonl** 08.02.18 19:21

So they did met up to discuss what they may say to the police in another interview, but they wanted to keep this meeting secret.

wow

Very telling

by Basil with a brush 08.02.18 20:29

It has to be before the "They've taken her!" night. In all reality, they'd have to have been far too damn lucky to pull off what they have in such a short space of time. I also don't believe she was moved in their hire car a few weeks after this, but that..something very close to her...was.

by **Jill Havern** 08.02.18 20:34

Basil with a brush wrote:It has to be before the "They've taken her!" night. In all reality, they'd have to have been far too damn lucky to pull off what they have in such a short space of time. I also don't believe she was moved in their hire car a few weeks after this, but that..something very close to her...was.

Like what?

Didn't Amaral say there was bodily fluids in the car that could only come from a refrigerated/frozen body?

by Verdi 08.02.18 20:53

Photographer: Jamie Jones/REX/Shutterstock

McCann Family Going to Church, Rothley, Leicestershire, Britain - 25 Nov 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann walking to church with the twins Sean and Amelie
25 Nov 2007

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by sandancer 08.02.18 22:57

Verdi wrote:Photographer: Jamie Jones/REX/Shutterstock

McCann Family Going to Church, Rothley, Leicestershire, Britain - 25 Nov 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann walking to church with the twins Sean and Amelie
25 Nov 2007

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Maybe it's just me , but jeans , trainers all round and a tatty old jumper for Gerry looks more like they're taking the kids to play in the park or a country walk than going to church ?

Am I just old fashioned ( not a church goer either ) I was always under the impression that people wore decent clothes attending church ?

Neither of them are exactly known for their sartorial elegance though are they ?

by Verdi 09.02.18 0:23

sandancer wrote:Neither of them are exactly known for their sartorial elegance though are they ?

Madeleine McCann's parents thank public for their support as they attend prayer service on seventh anniversary of their daughter's disappearance

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eyebrows

I rest your case big grin

.

by MayMuse 09.02.18 0:27

That particular image is 6 months after Madeleine vanished, not seven years...or were they doing monthly "anniversaries" back then? It still wouldn't be the seventh would it?

by Basil with a brush 09.02.18 4:38

Get'emGonçalo wrote:
Basil with a brush wrote:It has to be before the "They've taken her!" night. In all reality, they'd have to have been far too damn lucky to pull off what they have in such a short space of time. I also don't believe she was moved in their hire car a few weeks after this, but that..something very close to her...was.
Like what?

Didn't Amaral say there was bodily fluids in the car that could only come from a refrigerated/frozen body?

Hmm, I may need help on that one Get'emGoncalo, but it could surely be a number of items that were very close to the cadaver early on. Maybe whatever she was initially wrapped into. Blanket, sheet, other clothing, and maybe to the point of saturation. I think it was from that which the traces were found. Although it's a mystery of all mysteries and anything is still possible, I have to follow a feasible path to some degree. I don't think transporting your deceased child to another destination a few weeks after reporting her missing is even reasonably feasible. Even if they were to think ''Nobody would dare to do this, so who's going to notice?'' It's still one hell of a risk. Transportation of just materials which may be soiled or saturated with bodily fluids is another matter and is more feasible.

It's very possible I'm wrong of course, and probably am. But Im a trier facepalm

You've have now thrown a spanner in my works, when you mentioned above that you lean strongly towards it being pre-planned before the holiday.......Thanks for that thud

Back to the drawing board I go.

Do I think this mystery will ever be solved? .......Probably only when I stop feeling intrigued by it all. If I ever get that feeling, I'll let you know I'm heading off in to the sunset, and that the end to it all is now in sight Wink

Love Basil

by Crackfox 09.02.18 13:31

Basil with a brush wrote:
Get'emGonçalo wrote:
Basil with a brush wrote:It has to be before the "They've taken her!" night. In all reality, they'd have to have been far too damn lucky to pull off what they have in such a short space of time. I also don't believe she was moved in their hire car a few weeks after this, but that..something very close to her...was.
Like what?

Didn't Amaral say there was bodily fluids in the car that could only come from a refrigerated/frozen body?

Hmm, I may need help on that one Get'emGoncalo, but it could surely be a number of items that were very close to the cadaver early on. Maybe whatever she was initially wrapped into. Blanket, sheet, other clothing, and maybe to the point of saturation. I think it was from that which the traces were found. Although it's a mystery of all mysteries and anything is still possible, I have to follow a feasible path to some degree. I don't think transporting your deceased child to another destination a few weeks after reporting her missing is even reasonably feasible. Even if they were to think ''Nobody would dare to do this, so who's going to notice?'' It's still one hell of a risk. Transportation of just materials which may be soiled or saturated with bodily fluids is another matter and is more feasible.

It's very possible I'm wrong of course, and probably am. But Im a trier

You've have now thrown a spanner in my works, when you mentioned above that you lean strongly towards it being pre-planned before the holiday.......Thanks for that Back to the drawing board I go.

Do I think this mystery will ever be solved? .......Probably only when I stop feeling intrigued by it all. If I ever get that feeling, I'll let you know I'm heading off in to the sunset, and that the end to it all is now in sight

Love Basil

Just a thought but could it be the fridge that was transported in the hire car? I tend to agree that the other scenario is too risky.

by sar 09.02.18 14:31

...did someone not expect them to take her? and if not why not

by **HiDeHo** 09.02.18 16:21

Basil with a brush wrote:
Get'emGonçalo wrote:
Basil with a brush wrote:It has to be before the "They've taken her!" night. In all reality, they'd have to have been far too damn lucky to pull off what they have in such a short space of time. I also don't believe she was moved in their hire car a few weeks after this, but that..something very close to her...was.
Like what?

Didn't Amaral say there was bodily fluids in the car that could only come from a refrigerated/frozen body?

Hmm, I may need help on that one Get'emGoncalo, but it could surely be a number of items that were very close to the cadaver early on. Maybe whatever she was initially wrapped into. Blanket, sheet, other clothing, and maybe to the point of saturation. I think it was from that which the traces were found. Although it's a mystery of all mysteries and anything is still possible, I have to follow a feasible path to some degree. I don't think transporting your deceased child to another destination a few weeks after reporting her missing is even reasonably feasible. Even if they were to think ''Nobody would dare to do this, so who's going to notice?'' It's still one hell of a risk. Transportation of just materials which may be soiled or saturated with bodily fluids is another matter and is more feasible.

It's very possible I'm wrong of course, and probably am. But Im a trier

You've have now thrown a spanner in my works, when you mentioned above that you lean strongly towards it being pre-planned before the holiday.......Thanks for that Back to the drawing board I go.

Do I think this mystery will ever be solved? .......Probably only when I stop feeling intrigued by it all. If I ever get that feeling, I'll let you know I'm heading off in to the sunset, and that the end to it all is now in sight

Love Basil

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Just because the car was rented 3 weeks later does not mean that if her body was moved that it was then

Indications show that the smell from rotten meat, which was end of July, were suspicious.

Goncalo Amaral points this out in this video (see approx 2.00 mins)...

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by Basil with a brush 10.02.18 7:52

Thanks HiDeHo.

To save me trawling through threads again, can you just confirm to me that the hire car (Renault Scenic) was the very same car which was hired a few weeks after 3rd May, and was kept by them through July and right up until their return to the uk?

It doesn't change my thoughts on them moving their deceased child in their car, but it is interesting with regards to the refrigerator and other items being moved.

Apologise if that's a pain, but your research, I value.

Basil

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