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DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

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DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by NickE on 11.08.14 13:16

Polish couple holidaying just 4 Km from Praia da Luz came under scrutiny when a parent reported a case of attempted abduction and of inappropriate photographs being taken of young children.  The apartment where the couple were staying was forensically examined and mitochondrial DNA recovered from hairs samples.  One sample matched with Robert Murat while two others were identical matches to Jane Tanner.

Background
Shortly after the news of Madeleine McCann's disappearance broke, a Portuguese national, then living in Germany, came forward, alleging that on 29th April he had confronted a man taking pictures of his four-year-old daughter on a beach at Sagres (25 Km west of Luz).
The concerned parent had a second encounter with the suspicious individual in a pastry shop later that afternoon and was convinced that his own daughter was about to be abducted had he not stepped in.  He watched the man get into the drivers seat of a grey Renault Clio and noted that this time he was accompanied by a woman who was seated in the passenger seat.  He was so concerned he photographed the vehicle using his mobile phone, noting down its registration on a piece of scrap paper but later discarded it thinking no more of the incident.

Image of the Renault Clio taken at 6.08pm on 29 April 2007.
On the 4th May while waiting in a cafe in Sagres he again saw the suspicious man walking alone this time. When he got home to his mother's residence he was alerted to the events in nearby Praia da Luz the previous evening so he decided that he needed to report the incident to police.  The witness told police that his daughter bears a striking resemblance to Madeleine McCann.
The parent remembered sufficient detail of the cars registration which enabled the PJ to trace it to a nearby car hire office.  They then determined who was renting the vehicle and this information led them to a Polish couple who were staying at Aparthotel Sol e Mar in Burgau (4Km west of Luz). The Polish couple had by then vacated the apartment and was unoccupied which allowed the PJ to carry out a full forensic examination.

Investigations were made in several business premises in Burgau resulting in the couple being identified by one of the bar owners who remembered them as being Polish and had a discussed football with them. The owner of the bar had recalled that they had enquired of him where they could buy some classical music and he had directed them to the FNAC shop at the Algarve shopping centre or to the Chiado commercial centre.
CCTV surveillance footage from the FNAC shop in the Chiado centre was seized and images of various couples extracted. The images were shown to the parent who made the original complaint on 4 May resulting in the Polish couple being identified.

Polish couple identified from CCTV surveillance footage.
Details of the encounter was sent to Warsaw for police to trace and interview the Polish couple.  Using the "PAX-LIST" (passenger list), persons in seats around the couple were shown pictures of Madeleine and all stated that they were not accompanied by any child.  The couple were interviewed in their home apartment, which was searched but the missing child was not found. Read link
Leicestershire Constabulary reported that the female had a criminal record in respect of an alcohol and drug driving offence in 2003 and of obtaining property by deception.
The background to this connection is quite incredible. DNA testing showed that samples identically matched the mitochondrial DNA of Jane Tanner and Robert Murat (Processo n' 2007/000565/PT-B). The reports in question were provided by the Servicos de Genetica e Biologia Forense based in Lisbon at the request of Paulo Rebelo. When we talk about hair samples and hair haplotypes we are talking about mtDNA profiles and a system (called haplogroups) that illustrate how these profiles relate to common ancestry groups. One human cell contains two types of DNA - nuclear and mitochondrial. mtDNA is inherited from a mother to a child. Surprisingly, mtDNA analysis is more sensitive than nuclear DNA profiling. The samples found in the Solimar Apartments were identical haplotype matches to Tanner and Murat. This means that the samples were either from them or two people having the same maternal bloodline.
Mitochondrial DNA is and how it relates to profiling.
For highly degraded samples, it is sometimes impossible to get a complete profile of the 13 CODIS STRs. In these situations, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is sometimes typed due to there being many copies of mtDNA in a cell, while there may only be 1-2 copies of the nuclear DNA. Forensic scientists amplify the HV1 and HV2 regions of the mtDNA, and then sequence each region and compare single-nucleotide differences to a reference. Because mtDNA is maternally inherited, directly linked maternal relatives can be used as match references, such as one's maternal grandmother's daughter's son. In general, a difference of two or more nucleotides is considered to be an exclusion. Heteroplasmy and poly-C differences may throw off straight sequence comparisons, so some expertise on the part of the analyst is required. mtDNA is useful in determining clear identities, such as those of missing people when a maternally linked relative can be found. mtDNA testing was used in determining that Anna Anderson was not the Russian princess she had claimed to be, Anastasia Romanov.
mtDNA can be obtained from such material as hair shafts and old bones/teeth. Control mechanism based on interaction point with data. This is determined by tooled placement in sample.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling#Mitochondrial_analysis;

From the PJ files...
 The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples, (35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.

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When asked if people will ever learn what really happened, Mr Amaral responded: “Yes, we will, when MI5 opens the case files, we will find out".
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Post by PeterMac on 11.08.14 13:20


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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by noddy100 on 11.08.14 14:20

Why would such detailed evidence not be used to push this case towards court?

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Hicks on 11.08.14 14:44

From the link PererMac posted, there is mention of the Polish couple driving a grey car. IIRC there was a witness,( passed by the car park at the back of 5a) who only saw a grey car parked there on the evening May 3rd? Might be something or nothing.


Found it.   http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-M-M-DE-SILVA.htm.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by sharonl on 11.08.14 21:53

Petermac


Something that niggles me about the whole Murat issue is the circumstances in which Murat got the job as translator for the PJ.  We are led to believe that Murat was in Portugal at the time of Madeleines' disappearance and he merely went along to the PJ to offer his services which were accepted.  I just cannot swallow this, surely there would have been some sort of checks on Murat, a formal interview, contracts drawn up etc.


We know that Murat rushed over to PDL on May 1st 2007.  We also know that Murat worked as translator to the police over here, so is it more likely that he was quickly despatched over to PDL and the UK authorities recommended his services to the PJ as they did with the dogs & the FSS? 

What is the usual procedure for this sort of thing?

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by sar on 11.08.14 23:59

sharonl wrote:Petermac


Something that niggles me about the whole Murat issue is the circumstances in which Murat got the job as translator for the PJ.  We are led to believe that Murat was in Portugal at the time of Madeleines' disappearance and he merely went along to the PJ to offer his services which were accepted.  I just cannot swallow this, surely there would have been some sort of checks on Murat, a formal interview, contracts drawn up etc.


We know that Murat rushed over to PDL on May 1st 2007.  We also know that Murat worked as translator to the police over here, so is it more likely that he was quickly despatched over to PDL and the UK authorities recommended his services to the PJ as they did with the dogs & the FSS? 

What is the usual procedure for this sort of thing?
Yeah, exactly sharonl, how did he just bowl up to a police investigation off the street and get involved in a missing child case?  That is just crazy.  More like he was seconded by the other lot aka "those in the know."  All of course in my opinion and not fact at all.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Gaggzy on 12.08.14 1:45

If this information was relayed to anyone in the street that hairs were found and proven to be from an unrelated man and a woman in a holiday apartment, what's the first thing that person will think?

Probably something like, 'Oh it's obvious they must have been screwing each other.' (Dave from Billericay)

Or, 'Hmmm. If you ask me, they must be having an affair.' (Doris from Wolverhampton)

Or, 'In this case, maybe people who believe there was loads of swinging going on between consenting adults during that week, might have a point.' (Gaggzy from the North West)
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by plebgate on 12.08.14 6:16

Comments from members of public - probably something like -  They're at it like rabbits for sure, those scallies.    (Janet from Liverpool).

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by onehand on 12.08.14 7:46

@hicks,

if you take a look on the official portuguese paper of the files in the sideline, you could see, the grey car outside 5a was a renault laguna and had a different number plate.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 12.08.14 10:02

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5322-bizarre-comment-from-someone-in-the-pub

I was looking into the possibility that Murat and Tanner were related (remembering they both had bases in Exeter) and came across this astonishing thread.
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 12.08.14 11:29

Dee Coy wrote:https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5322-bizarre-comment-from-someone-in-the-pub

I was looking into the possibility that Murat and Tanner were related (remembering they both had bases in Exeter) and came across this astonishing thread.
I too think it is a possibility IMO that Murat and Jane Tanner are related Dee Coy, that is also an interesting thread...who knows.  I can't see how this will solve the mystery at the moment or quite what significance this would have but it would be interesting to do some research.  I will also see what I can find although sorry my progress is painfully slow atm.  Don't want to go off topic here maybe we can start a new thread if anything is found...

All imo only.
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 12.08.14 13:23

BlackCatBoogie wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5322-bizarre-comment-from-someone-in-the-pub

I was looking into the possibility that Murat and Tanner were related (remembering they both had bases in Exeter) and came across this astonishing thread.
I too think it is a possibility IMO that Murat and Jane Tanner are related Dee Coy, that is also an interesting thread...who knows.  I can't see how this will solve the mystery at the moment or quite what significance this would have but it would be interesting to do some research.  I will also see what I can find although sorry my progress is painfully slow atm.  Don't want to go off topic here maybe we can start a new thread if anything is found...

All imo only.
ETA...or there is some sort of other connection between them i.e. they knew each other in Exeter beforehand.  I have always thought that there is a connection between these two...I find the DNA found in Burgau fascinating ... All imo
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by sallypelt on 12.08.14 13:27

BlackCatBoogie wrote:
BlackCatBoogie wrote:
Dee Coy wrote:https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5322-bizarre-comment-from-someone-in-the-pub

I was looking into the possibility that Murat and Tanner were related (remembering they both had bases in Exeter) and came across this astonishing thread.
I too think it is a possibility IMO that Murat and Jane Tanner are related Dee Coy, that is also an interesting thread...who knows.  I can't see how this will solve the mystery at the moment or quite what significance this would have but it would be interesting to do some research.  I will also see what I can find although sorry my progress is painfully slow atm.  Don't want to go off topic here maybe we can start a new thread if anything is found...

All imo only.
ETA...or there is some sort of other connection between them i.e. they knew each other in Exeter beforehand.  I have always thought that there is a connection between these two...I find the DNA found in Burgau fascinating ... All imo
And another coincidence in this case is, one of those witnesses who gave a statement to the Portuguese police, was born in Norfolk in the 1990s. I hope no one will question me further on this snippet, and will do their own research, as I don't want say anything more about this particular piece of information, but it's all there for those who know where to look. But if admins want the information, I can send it in a private message, and they can decide whether it can be posted on the forum.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Markus 2 on 12.08.14 16:37

On 15th May, the Daily Mail reported that, in Norfolk, two women leave the house owned by Robert Murat's estranged wife Dawn with police, both carrying children hidden under blankets.

Very much like Maddie in this picture
Just saw this ,is this true QUOTE I wonder how many people know that he's been refused any access to his own daughter
If it does turn out to be a tanner, murat connection I cant see how the Mcanns  will be involved.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by sar on 12.08.14 17:06

Markus 2 wrote:On 15th May, the Daily Mail reported that, in Norfolk, two women leave the house owned by Robert Murat's estranged wife Dawn with police, both carrying children hidden under blankets.

Very much like Maddie in this picture
Just saw this ,is this true QUOTE I wonder how many people know that he's been refused any access to his own daughter
If it does turn out to be a tanner, murat connection I cant see how the Mcanns  will be involved.
does anyone remember an image of a girl with blonde hair in a straight fringe, not sure where it was from but puts me in mind of this girl?

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Markus 2 on 12.08.14 18:03

sar wrote:
Markus 2 wrote:On 15th May, the Daily Mail reported that, in Norfolk, two women leave the house owned by Robert Murat's estranged wife Dawn with police, both carrying children hidden under blankets.

Very much like Maddie in this picture
Just saw this ,is this true QUOTE I wonder how many people know that he's been refused any access to his own daughter
If it does turn out to be a tanner, murat connection I cant see how the Mcanns  will be involved.
does anyone remember an image of a girl with blonde hair in a straight fringe, not sure where it was from but puts me in mind of this girl?
Sorry ,there have been several photos similar but cant recall. Trying to deccifer this , quote And another coincidence in this case is, one of those witnesses who gave a statement to the Portuguese police, was born in Norfolk in the 1990s,sounds interesting.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 12.08.14 18:59

A young person, so perhaps one of the nannies at the creche?
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Markus 2 on 12.08.14 19:05

Ladyinred wrote:A young person, so perhaps one of the nannies at the creche?
Brought over by Murat and that would be telling if we know what their statement said. Or did he have an older child working there.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by NickE on 12.08.14 19:14

sar wrote:
sharonl wrote:Petermac


Something that niggles me about the whole Murat issue is the circumstances in which Murat got the job as translator for the PJ.  We are led to believe that Murat was in Portugal at the time of Madeleines' disappearance and he merely went along to the PJ to offer his services which were accepted.  I just cannot swallow this, surely there would have been some sort of checks on Murat, a formal interview, contracts drawn up etc.


We know that Murat rushed over to PDL on May 1st 2007.  We also know that Murat worked as translator to the police over here, so is it more likely that he was quickly despatched over to PDL and the UK authorities recommended his services to the PJ as they did with the dogs & the FSS? 

What is the usual procedure for this sort of thing?
Yeah, exactly sharonl, how did he just bowl up to a police investigation off the street and get involved in a missing child case?  That is just crazy.  More like he was seconded by the other lot aka "those in the know."  All of course in my opinion and not fact at all.
Personally,I don´t trust Carpenter, but this is what he told the police.



Stephen Carpenter: 
Yes. This garden is situated at the other side of the passage way from my apartment block and is enclosed by net fence of about 1.80 m in height, the garden is thick and it was not possible to see inside, there was also a passageway along the garden without a wall that was on the way from our apartment to the Millenium restaurant. At some stage I managed to see clearly inside the garden, but I did not know who was the owner of the house and I never saw anyone inside the garden or the house or see anyone leaving until the moment that I heard a voice calling me. Then a voice called me from over the hedge. "What is happening, or what is going on'", I replied that a three year old girl had disappeared, he said "I am going to come round to talk to you" and he did this, walked round to come over towards me and said "I have lived here for fourteen years, I speak Portuguese fluently and I can help to translate", and we introduced ourselves, he told me he was Robert and this was the first time I had seen this man. Robert mentioned that he had a daughter in Norfolk who was the same age as Madeleine, and that is why he was able to understand what they were going through. We walked back along the path that I had taken to Gerry's apartment and I explained that Robert spoke Portuguese fluently, he told Gerry that it was important to have someone who spoke the language so that nothing would be lost in translation.. And that was how Robert Murat was presented as a translator.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 12.08.14 19:29

Ladyinred wrote:A young person, so perhaps one of the nannies at the creche?

Sallypelt has me pondering too  smilie . Born in the nineties, so that makes the witness between the age of 10-17 when Madeleine disappeared.
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Markus 2 on 12.08.14 19:42

Dee Coy wrote:
Ladyinred wrote:A young person, so perhaps one of the nannies at the creche?

Sallypelt has me pondering too  smilie . Born in the nineties, so that makes the witness between the age of 10-17 when Madeleine disappeared.
Murat could have a daughter 17, quick work though, working in the complex. Or a child of a witness , does state I think in that group as well as the younger ones there were those 10 to 17

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 12.08.14 19:53

Duh! I mean 7-17!!

Other than Aoife Smith, were any children asked for statements?
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Markus 2 on 12.08.14 20:12

Re: Robert Murat's links with Oasis Club, Norwich
  Cheshire Cat on 31/3/2011, 14:11Just read this find it very interesting

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by sharonl on 12.08.14 20:30

Markus 2 wrote:Re: Robert Murat's links with Oasis Club, Norwich
  Cheshire Cat on 31/3/2011, 14:11Just read this find it very interesting


Harry Serruys,?  surely not this one

http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/insight/my_battle_to_clear_my_name_in_91m_lawsuit_1_741774

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Markus 2 on 12.08.14 20:40

sharonl wrote:
Markus 2 wrote:Re: Robert Murat's links with Oasis Club, Norwich
  Cheshire Cat on 31/3/2011, 14:11Just read this find it very interesting


Harry Serruys,?  surely not this one

http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/insight/my_battle_to_clear_my_name_in_91m_lawsuit_1_741774
Facing unfounded allegations of fraud, a freezing order on his assets and a legal battle against a £10bn conglomerate, the past two-and-a-half years have been a living nightmare for entrepreneur Andre Serruys. WOW friend of the Smiths maybe, the ones  who deff said it was not Murat.

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