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DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 12.08.14 20:48

Sorry if I've missed something (wouldn't be the first time) but where is there any suggestion, Markus 2, that Andre Serruys might know the Smiths?
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by sallypelt on 12.08.14 20:58

@Markus 2 wrote:
@sharonl wrote:
@Markus 2 wrote:Re: Robert Murat's links with Oasis Club, Norwich
  Cheshire Cat on 31/3/2011, 14:11Just read this find it very interesting


Harry Serruys,?  surely not this one

http://www.edp24.co.uk/business/insight/my_battle_to_clear_my_name_in_91m_lawsuit_1_741774
Facing unfounded allegations of fraud, a freezing order on his assets and a legal battle against a £10bn conglomerate, the past two-and-a-half years have been a living nightmare for entrepreneur Andre Serruys. WOW friend of the Smiths maybe, the ones  who deff said it was not Murat.
Robert Murat, during his time in Norfolk, was a frequent visitor to the Oasis Club at Thorpe St. Andrew, just outside Norwich.

The Club was established by the late Harry Serruys, and is now owned and run by his son, Andre Serruys

One of Harry Serruys’s main contacts at the Oasis Club was the headteacher of a private high school at Happisburgh (pronounced Hazeboro) on the North Norfolk coast, who was investigated for child abuse.

http://www.darkpolitricks.com/2013/11/madeleine-mccann-and-the-kray-twins/

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Markus 2 on 12.08.14 21:03

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Sorry if I've missed something (wouldn't be the first time) but where is there any suggestion, Markus 2, that Andre Serruys might know the Smiths?
As well as the legal costs - which Mr Serruys was allowed to fund under terms of the freezing order - the situation had a major impact on Mr Serruys’ business interests, which include property development, leisure and tourism.Did the Smiths have connections to Norfolk was he a property developer also. Norfolk a place of interest being  discussed at the moment along with Murat and his Norfolk connections.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 12.08.14 21:07

I certainly am not aware of any connections between the Smiths and Norfolk but no doubt if anyone knows of them they will post them.

The only dodgy property developer who springs to mind is Stephen Birch!
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Markus 2 on 12.08.14 22:24

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I certainly am not aware of any connections between the Smiths and Norfolk but no doubt if anyone knows of them they will post them.

The only dodgy property developer who springs to mind is Stephen Birch!
Some people   believe the Smiths to be genuine others not, I think we have to keep an open mind on this and see if if anything else will be found  in due time.  jmo.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Upsy Daisy on 13.08.14 16:44

The issue of identified haplogroups has come up before.  It is impossible to say with any certainty whether members of the same haplogroup are, in recent times, related, unless you do an ancestry search.  There are relatively few haplogroups yet billions of us share the same ones. For example, Haplogroup S spans most of Australia, aboriginals, Asians, also in Europe so is a haplogroup shared by millions of people.  Haplogroup M also - one of the super groups to which there are many sub groups.  For example, my MtDNA haplogroup is H1, which covers pretty much half of the Iberian peninsula, North Africa and Western Europe including Ireland, Great Britain, plus up to Scandinavia and further east again.  It is not possible to assume people with the same haplogroup are related (albeit historically) unless you specifically search the genealogy of their maternal lines, since only their maternal DNA (Tanner/Murat) can be common (females don't have Y DNA).

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Upsy Daisy on 13.08.14 16:57

From the PJ files...
 The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples, (35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.


Further, what I can read from this is that they are saying there was DNA found which belonged to a person from Haplogroup M.  Murat, from what I can see, belongs to haplogroup M.   DNA was also found from another person who belonged to Haplogroup S - Tanner belongs to haplogroup S.  Nowhere can I see that this relates the two of them.  They are from two different haplogroups, one from M and one from S. The fact that they both belong to these haplogroups is too vague - so do millions of other people. So unfortunately, this could probably never be used as evidence since any number of people could have been there, who were from those haplogroups - millions of individuals.

If I am wrong about this, please correct me but this is my understanding of a person's Haplogroup.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by PeterMac on 13.08.14 17:23


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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 13.08.14 17:34

You are absolutely right Upsy Daisy.  This issue has come up on several occasions over the years and there are posts elsewhere on this forum confirming that " maternal bloodline" is not what it seems. Peter Mac has it in one!
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Guest on 13.08.14 18:34

Malinka's sofa also contained hairs 'similar' to Murat.
Same haplo-type confusion, same old red herring.
Forget that herring, long gone
just like Madeleine imo
Let's focus on that squirrel.
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by joyce1938 on 13.08.14 18:38

good you have the distinct answer to this ,I knew there is a reason that we cant link these 2 together ,but did not know how to explain it,so pleased someone can . It can be rather distracting whenwe don't have all the info on a subject ,can become just too important to people  and leads up a street that is just not relevant ,so thanks upsidaisy for your input right now .joyce1938
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Woofer on 13.08.14 18:40

There would be hundreds of millions of people with the same haplogroup.
 
"For example, the following are common divisions for mtDNA haplogroups:

 
So from this, if RM is from group M, his maternal line originated in Eastern Europe/Asia.
 
And JT`s maternal line, if it is S, originated from Australia/Western Pacific Islands
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Upsy Daisy on 15.08.14 11:49

aaahaaaa...(lightbulb in head goes off)...hehe..

Yes, indeed, rather red isn't it....

 laughat

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Tony Bennett on 02.03.15 19:02

@NickE wrote:Polish couple holidaying just 4 Km from Praia da Luz came under scrutiny when a parent reported a case of attempted abduction and of inappropriate photographs being taken of young children.  The apartment where the couple were staying was forensically examined and mitochondrial DNA recovered from hairs samples.  One sample matched with Robert Murat while two others were identical matches to Jane Tanner.

Background
Shortly after the news of Madeleine McCann's disappearance broke, a Portuguese national, then living in Germany, came forward, alleging that on 29th April he had confronted a man taking pictures of his four-year-old daughter on a beach at Sagres (25 Km west of Luz).
The concerned parent had a second encounter with the suspicious individual in a pastry shop later that afternoon and was convinced that his own daughter was about to be abducted had he not stepped in.  He watched the man get into the drivers seat of a grey Renault Clio and noted that this time he was accompanied by a woman who was seated in the passenger seat.  He was so concerned he photographed the vehicle using his mobile phone, noting down its registration on a piece of scrap paper but later discarded it thinking no more of the incident.

Image of the Renault Clio taken at 6.08pm on 29 April 2007.
On the 4th May while waiting in a cafe in Sagres he again saw the suspicious man walking alone this time. When he got home to his mother's residence he was alerted to the events in nearby Praia da Luz the previous evening so he decided that he needed to report the incident to police.  The witness told police that his daughter bears a striking resemblance to Madeleine McCann.
The parent remembered sufficient detail of the cars registration which enabled the PJ to trace it to a nearby car hire office.  They then determined who was renting the vehicle and this information led them to a Polish couple who were staying at Aparthotel Sol e Mar in Burgau (4Km west of Luz). The Polish couple had by then vacated the apartment and was unoccupied which allowed the PJ to carry out a full forensic examination.

Investigations were made in several business premises in Burgau resulting in the couple being identified by one of the bar owners who remembered them as being Polish and had a discussed football with them. The owner of the bar had recalled that they had enquired of him where they could buy some classical music and he had directed them to the FNAC shop at the Algarve shopping centre or to the Chiado commercial centre.
CCTV surveillance footage from the FNAC shop in the Chiado centre was seized and images of various couples extracted. The images were shown to the parent who made the original complaint on 4 May resulting in the Polish couple being identified.

Polish couple identified from CCTV surveillance footage.
Details of the encounter was sent to Warsaw for police to trace and interview the Polish couple.  Using the "PAX-LIST" (passenger list), persons in seats around the couple were shown pictures of Madeleine and all stated that they were not accompanied by any child.  The couple were interviewed in their home apartment, which was searched but the missing child was not found. Read link
Leicestershire Constabulary reported that the female had a criminal record in respect of an alcohol and drug driving offence in 2003 and of obtaining property by deception.
The background to this connection is quite incredible. DNA testing showed that samples identically matched the mitochondrial DNA of Jane Tanner and Robert Murat (Processo n' 2007/000565/PT-B). The reports in question were provided by the Servicos de Genetica e Biologia Forense based in Lisbon at the request of Paulo Rebelo. When we talk about hair samples and hair haplotypes we are talking about mtDNA profiles and a system (called haplogroups) that illustrate how these profiles relate to common ancestry groups. One human cell contains two types of DNA - nuclear and mitochondrial. mtDNA is inherited from a mother to a child. Surprisingly, mtDNA analysis is more sensitive than nuclear DNA profiling. The samples found in the Solimar Apartments were identical haplotype matches to Tanner and Murat. This means that the samples were either from them or two people having the same maternal bloodline.
Mitochondrial DNA is and how it relates to profiling.
For highly degraded samples, it is sometimes impossible to get a complete profile of the 13 CODIS STRs. In these situations, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is sometimes typed due to there being many copies of mtDNA in a cell, while there may only be 1-2 copies of the nuclear DNA. Forensic scientists amplify the HV1 and HV2 regions of the mtDNA, and then sequence each region and compare single-nucleotide differences to a reference. Because mtDNA is maternally inherited, directly linked maternal relatives can be used as match references, such as one's maternal grandmother's daughter's son. In general, a difference of two or more nucleotides is considered to be an exclusion. Heteroplasmy and poly-C differences may throw off straight sequence comparisons, so some expertise on the part of the analyst is required. mtDNA is useful in determining clear identities, such as those of missing people when a maternally linked relative can be found. mtDNA testing was used in determining that Anna Anderson was not the Russian princess she had claimed to be, Anastasia Romanov.
mtDNA can be obtained from such material as hair shafts and old bones/teeth. Control mechanism based on interaction point with data. This is determined by tooled placement in sample.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling#Mitochondrial_analysis;

From the PJ files...
 The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples, (35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person
or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
I have revisited this thread after considering, once again, where the Polish gentleman, Wojcek Krokowski, fits into this whole story.

And I looked again at NickE's posting, especially the bit in red.

If we look at that again, the message is quite clear, one of Robert Murat's hairs was found in the same Solimar apartment as that occupied by the Polish couple, Wojcek Krokowski and his wife/partner. And one of Jane Tanner's hairs was also found there.

Or it could be the hairs of their respective mothers, Murat's mother or Tanner's mother.

There was some nonsense talked up the thread saying that 'these hairs could belong to thousands of people'.

I don't think so.  Having looked once again at what is written in the PJ files and in the lierature about haplotypes, I am satisfied that these hairs were the hairs of Robert Murat and Jane Tanner.

Which leaves us with this conundrum.

Why were the hairs of Robert Murat and Jane Tanner found in the same apartment as the one the Krokowskis stayed in?

Now here's a suggestion.

We know that Krokowski and his wife/partner were on holiday in Burgau for the week 28 April to 5 May.

So were the McCanns.

We know that Jane Tanner (statement 4 May) described a man 5' 7", average build, long black hair, wearing warm clothes, light/mustard-coloured trousers, classic shoes, 'didn't look like a tourist' etc.

We know that early the following morning, a Portuguese-born German national, Nuno Lourenco, contacted the PJ with a cock-and-bull story about a bloke on Sagres beach trying to kidnap his daughter. There's no reason whatsoever to believe his stpory . He described someone 5' 7", average build, long black hair, wearing warm clothes, cream/beige-coloured trousers, classic shoes, 'didn't look like a tourist etc. etc. We now know that this alleged kidnapper was Wojcek Krokowski, the holidaymaker at the Solimar apartments. We also know that Nuno Lourenco for some inexplicable reason delayed reporting the kidnapping for 6 days, only doing so immediately after Krokowski's plane took off for Berlin, en route to Warsaw.

It is almost as if the descriptions of Wojeck Krokowski and that of 'Tannerman' were running to a preordained script, based on what Krokowski was wearing. 

Just suppose for one moment that something really dreadful had happened earlier that week.

Just suppose for another moment that someone came up with the idea of concocting an elaborate abduction hoax that involved Tanner on 4 May and Nuno Lourenco early on 5 May each contacting the PJ with a near-identical description of the abductor.   

It certainly worked, if that was the plan, because as is made clear in a chapter of Goncalo Amaral's book, 'The Truth About A Lie', Amaral practically dropped everything, put out emergency calls to INTERPOL and the German and Polish Police, ensuring that the plane was searched, passengers questioned about a missing girl, and the Krokowskis greeted by a phalanx of police officers when they got back, waiting to search their flat.

Is it just possible that one day that week, maybe Wednesday, there was some sort of planning meeting going on at the Solimar apartment. Krokowski, Robert Murat and Jane Tanner all being present?


Also discussed here:

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t10602-was-wojcek-krokowski-sagres-man-with-a-camera-the-template-for-both-tannerman-and-smithman

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by LombardySkeptik on 02.03.15 23:40

Tony - I think you are misreading this information

Does it state they found Tanners hair in this apartment??
At best - What it states is the 'samples' mtDNA profile matched...... that of the mtDNA profile ....obtained from Tanners hair ...and the same can be said for Robert Murat

No more and no less...and almost meaningless

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by ultimaThule on 03.03.15 0:51

@LombardySkeptik wrote:Tony - I think you are misreading this information

Does it state they found Tanners hair in this apartment??
At best - What it states is the 'samples' mtDNA profile matched...... that of the mtDNA profile ....obtained from Tanners hair ...and the same can be said for Robert Murat

No more and no less...and almost meaningless


As I recall, Robert Murat was made an arguido c20 May 2007 at which time, presumably, he was required to provide DNA samples.

While it is understandable that Murat's DNA profile was on file, I find it curious that Jane Tanner's DNA profile was also on file as this suggests that hair/saliva samples were taken from all of the Tapas 7 and, should this be the case, it would be remarkable if samples weren't also taken from the McCanns and possibly all of the group's surviving children.

Fwiw, to my mind the grand reunion of 20+ 40+ members, including long dead Uncle Hughie? or Dewey, who was dug up for the occasion, of clan McCann in Donegal at Easter 2007 leads to Burgau and the sighting of a family resembling the McCanns on Zaival Beach at that time https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3749p30-mccanns-easter-break-donegal-2007#80920

Thanks to the marvels of photoshopping modern technology it's possible to appear in two, or more places, simultaneously - or in places where you've never been and/or have no intention of going to.
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by mad world on 03.03.15 1:07

You know there's a hiatus in action on this case when a thread like this appears. It's meaningless at best really.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by ultimaThule on 03.03.15 1:32

'Meaningless', mw?  

Are you not curious as to whether the McCanns were in Donegal or the Algarve at Easter 2007, or how hair found in a Burgau apartment may indicate a blood relationship between Tanner and Murat when all accounts suggest that, despite her living in Exeter and him making frequent trips to that city to visit his sister, a) they did not meet before Madeleine's disappearance and b) the McCanns and the Tapas 7 claim to have stuck close to the Ocean Club in Luz for the duration of their ill-fated holiday?
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Tony Bennett on 03.03.15 7:42

@LombardySkeptik wrote:Tony - I think you are misreading this information

Does it state they found Tanners hair in this apartment??
At best - What it states is the 'samples' mtDNA profile matched...... that of the mtDNA profile ....obtained from Tanners hair ...and the same can be said for Robert Murat

No more and no less...and almost meaningless
Er, do you agree, or do you disagree, with this statement by the PJ, as reported by NickE in the OP:


From the PJ files...

The Haplotype identified by the letters M e M*, present in 49 samples, (35 in the Residencia Liliana, 13 in the vehicle Volkswagen and 1 in the bathroom of the apartament in Burgau), and identical to that of Robert James Queriol Eveleight Murat (RQMU), meaning those samples were from that person or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.
The Haplotype identified by the letter S, present in 2 samples, (apartment in Burgau), and identical to that of Jane Michelle Tanner (JT), meaning those samples were from that person
or individuals of the same maternal bloodline.

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by mad world on 03.03.15 8:11

I don't mean meaningless in the sense of info...just meaningless in the sense that until og changes remit,the mc canns and tapas nine are pulled in for questioning separately and a reconstruction os done its over egging the pudding. Until this happens you can point out rm is reated

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by mad world on 03.03.15 8:13

I don't mean meaningless in the sense of info...just meaningless in the sense that until og changes remit,the mc canns and tapas nine are pulled in for questioning separately and a reconstruction os done its over egging the pudding. Until this happens you can point out rm is related to elvis for all it matters to madeleine

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by HelenMeg on 03.03.15 11:38

@ultimaThule wrote:'Meaningless', mw?  

Are you not curious as to whether the McCanns were in Donegal or the Algarve at Easter 2007, or how hair found in a Burgau apartment may indicate a blood relationship between Tanner and Murat when all accounts suggest that, despite her living in Exeter and him making frequent trips to that city to visit his sister, a) they did not meet before Madeleine's disappearance and b) the McCanns and the Tapas 7 claim to have stuck close to the Ocean Club in Luz for the duration of their ill-fated holiday?
The hair found in Burgau apartment is fascinating really - with regard to Tanner /  Murat connection. Tanner
was also connected or friends with Jim Gorrod, 34, the solicitor from Exeter (he was on holiday in Praia da Luz on the Algarve with his pregnant wife Charlotte and toddler son when Madeleine vanished).

Just going on the hair found in the apartment - it seems more than reasonable to say that Tanner and Murat were acquainted.  What other explanation can there be.
A number of people seem to believe there is very good reason to suspect the Mc Canns were in the Algarve for Easter 2007, and Donegal was a fairytale - and looking at the photos of the kids in Donegal I can see why... if you look at their ages there is a discreppancy

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by ultimaThule on 03.03.15 11:59

Gerry is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, nevertheless, he was careful not to commit himself when asked if he knew Murat before Madeleine disappeared.

@mad world

I can't see how changing the remit of Operation Grange can make any difference to what has become a murder investigation and the only 'reconstruction' I wish to see is one that is enacted in a criminal court of law.
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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Tony Bennett on 03.03.15 12:01

@HelenMeg wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:'Meaningless', mw?  

Are you not curious as to whether the McCanns were in Donegal or the Algarve at Easter 2007, or how hair found in a Burgau apartment may indicate a blood relationship between Tanner and Murat

REPLY: Why do you say it indicates that, uT? I think you may have misunderstood. The haplotype of Robert Murat's hair indicates that it is HIS hair, or that of his MOTHER, or HER MOTHER, and so on. Realistically, it is almost certain to be Robert Murat's. The same with Jane Tanner; it is her hair - her mother doesn't seem to be have been out there any time.
   

when all accounts suggest that, despite her living in Exeter and him making frequent trips to that city to visit his sister, a) they did not meet before Madeleine's disappearance

REPLY: That is a very curious statement of yours, uT. 'All accounts suggest'? What accounts are these please? Can you give us links? We have Dr Gerald McCann's reaction to being asked if he already knew Robert Murat? He reacted IMO shiftily, uneasily, embarrassed and a touch angry: "I am not going to comment on that". Why on earth not?  And IF Gerry DID know Murat, that creates a real possibility that he also knew Jane Tanner.

and b) the McCanns and the Tapas 7 claim to have stuck close to the Ocean Club in Luz for the duration of their ill-fated holiday?

REPLY: You believe all their claims?
The hair found in Burgau apartment is fascinating really - with regard to Tanner/Murat connection.

REPLY: Exactly right. It cannot possibly be ignored.  

Tanner was also connected or friends with Jim Gorrod, 34, the solicitor from Exeter (he was on holiday in Praia da Luz on the Algarve with his pregnant wife Charlotte and toddler son when Madeleine vanished).

REPLY: Yes, although that's not evidence that Jane Tanner or the Gorrods knew Robert Murat (though they might have done).

Just going on the hair found in the apartment - it seems more than reasonable to say that Tanner and Murat were acquainted.  What other explanation can there be.

REPLY: Agreed, though more narrowly it effectively proves that at some time, no doubt that very week, each of them was in the holiday Solimar apartment occupied by Wojcek Krokowski and his wife/partner. They may or may not have been there at the same time as each other.

I think the probability must be that they were there at the same time. Some up the thread have mischievously suggested that Murat and Jane had a physical liaison there.

No, more likely, I think, is that certain parties had a discussion there. Was Krokowski there as well as his wife/partner? It does seem mightily odd that, following her visit to Krokowski's holiday pad, first Jane Tanner and then Nuno Lourenco tell the PJ about a man fitting the description of Krokowski    
 

A number of people seem to believe there is very good reason to suspect the Mc Canns were in the Algarve for Easter 2007, and Donegal was a fairytale - and looking at the photos of the kids in Donegal I can see why... if you look at their ages there is a discrepancy

REPLY: To quote Gerry McCann: I am not going to comment on that, except to say that unless much more persuasive evidence is advanced, I think they DID go to Donegal as stated  

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Re: DNA connects Tanner and Murat with apartment in Burgau

Post by Tony Bennett on 03.03.15 12:07

@ultimaThule wrote:Gerry is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, nevertheless, he was careful not to commit himself when asked if he knew Murat before Madeleine disappeared.

WHY?

@mad world

I can't see how changing the remit of Operation Grange can make any difference to what has become a murder investigation and the only 'reconstruction' I wish to see is one that is enacted in a criminal court of law.

SIMPLES. The official remit 'to investigate the abduction' means that DCI Nicola Wall and her staff can't investigate any other hypothesis.

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"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" - Paul's first letter to his disciple Timothy,  1 Timothy 1 v 15

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