Re: Gerry / Murat - No comment

by suzyjohnson 04.08.14 20:31

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:That was Lori Campbell. There's a brief mention of her here.

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Right, thanks. I remember thinking at the time I couldn't believe what she had done.

by plebgate 04.08.14 23:07

aiyoyo wrote:
j.rob wrote:
Even if Jane had not known or met Murat before the start of the ill-fated 'holiday', surely she would have become aware of his role as interpreter?

And then to turn around and said to the police that the interpreter looked dodgy and they'd seen him loitering around the apartment, yeah right?
Why did they not tell the Police from the off, the moment they saw him with them in the police station interpreting for them? Why did they not alert PJ they did not want him interpreting for them because they are suspicious of him?

I can't recall when they alerted to the PJ their suspicions of Murat but definitely not from the get go; that much seems pretty clear.
JT cognitive ability must be retarded if fresh from memory of having just seen the man carrying a child and then on seeing the man supposedly Murat again less than 24 hours later failed to recognise him as being the man she saw night before. Yet she was later able to say definitively it was him. How does that work?

We never did hear if Murat sued Tanner. All very strange, all very strange.

by j.rob 07.08.14 16:49

dantezebu wrote:j.rob
"I think it is possible she died outside the apartment but her body was brought back when they thought they had got away with the random abductor story. "

How does that work?
The MC's were moved into another apartment (after having a snooze in the Payne's apartment) and 5a was sealed by the police the following day.
So no chance of bringing a body back into 5a.

Well just suppose that Madeleine died outside the apartment (was removed ill/injured etc). And suppose her parents were responsible for this sad state of affairs - they had drugged her/she had suffered abuse/someone had lashed out. The parents would not have wanted evidence of a dead body in the apartment so would have tried to avoid this if possible. Plus they want to frame someone else for the crime ( Murat, say). If cadaver scent is found somewhere outside the apartment this would lead to the finger of suspicion for the crime falling on someone else - someone other than the parents.

If Murat was made a suspect, then presumably he would have made long statements to the police - and, if he had been pulled in by TM to get them out of a sticky situation, then who knows what might happen in order to lay the trail at the right door rather than the wrong door?

Murat, for instance, had keys to properties etc plus many contacts. He also would have had, at one stage at any event, a close relationship with Portuguese police as he acted as interpreter.

Just a possible theory . I know the McCanns themselves claimed the cadaver scent was 'planted' - maybe it was but only so the investigation would lead to the correct suspects.

Just a theory. Sounds far-fetched, perhaps but this case has so many twists and turns.

In any event when-ever and where-ever Madeleine died where was her body kept after death and before transportation in the scenic hired by the McCanns weeks after 3rd May (if sniffer dogs to be believed?)

Presumably Gerry would have known that cadaver scent can be detected even after a vigorous deep clean? He must have bee pretty confident that the trial of death would not lead back to his own doors?

All just ideas, as always.

by Research_Reader 07.08.14 16:53

j.rob wrote:
Murat, for instance, had keys to properties etc plus many contacts. ....

In any event when-ever and where-ever Madeleine died where was her body kept after death and before transportation in the scenic hired by the McCanns weeks after 3rd May (if sniffer dogs to be believed?)

Amaral believed that her body must have been temporarily stored in a freezer before they found the trace of bodily fluids in the scenic. So there would need to have been access to a property with something like a large-ish chest freezer.

by **PeterMac** 07.08.14 17:09

Research_Reader wrote:
j.rob wrote:
Murat, for instance, had keys to properties etc plus many contacts. ....
In any event when-ever and where-ever Madeleine died where was her body kept after death and before transportation in the scenic hired by the McCanns weeks after 3rd May (if sniffer dogs to be believed?)
Amaral believed that her body must have been temporarily stored in a freezer before they found the trace of bodily fluids in the scenic. So there would need to have been access to a property with something like a large-ish chest freezer.

Not so.
A child can "fold up" into a very small space. A normal domestic fridge with the shelves out would be quite big enough.

by comperedna 07.08.14 17:32

A fridge doesn't preserve a large joint of meat for any length of time. It relatively soon goes 'off'. Only a freezer is a reliable place to keep a joint of meat for an indefinite time or anything but a short while.

by Research_Reader 07.08.14 18:20

PeterMac wrote:
Research_Reader wrote:
j.rob wrote:
Murat, for instance, had keys to properties etc plus many contacts. ....
In any event when-ever and where-ever Madeleine died where was her body kept after death and before transportation in the scenic hired by the McCanns weeks after 3rd May (if sniffer dogs to be believed?)
Amaral believed that her body must have been temporarily stored in a freezer before they found the trace of bodily fluids in the scenic. So there would need to have been access to a property with something like a large-ish chest freezer.
Not so.
A child can "fold up" into a very small space. A normal domestic fridge with the shelves out would be quite big enough.

Thanks for clarification.

by Research_Reader 07.08.14 18:23

comperedna wrote:A fridge doesn't preserve a large joint of meat for any length of time. It relatively soon goes 'off'. Only a freezer is a reliable place to keep a joint of meat for an indefinite time or anything but a short while.

So it needs to be a freezer then, but perhaps a door freezer with at least some of the trays/drawers removed would surfice (i.e. it wouldn't necessarily needed to have been a chest freezer). Not that it makes much difference. The key thing is they would almost certainly have needed an empty or safe property with some kind of refrigeration.

by comperedna 07.08.14 18:39

Absolutely.

by Research_Reader 07.08.14 18:44

Now who do we know of who could possibly have helped out with that? hmm......

by nglfi 07.08.14 18:45

Is Gerry's disposal of the fridge that was in the apartment a myth or did he really do this? If he did surely it's a massive red flag? Why on earth would anyone take it upon themselves to take a faulty fridge in a rented apartment to the dump, when their beloved daughter was still missing?

by j.rob 08.08.14 9:47

nglfi wrote:Is Gerry's disposal of the fridge that was in the apartment a myth or did he really do this? If he did surely it's a massive red flag? Why on earth would anyone take it upon themselves to take a faulty fridge in a rented apartment to the dump, when their beloved daughter was still missing?

If Gerry did blog that he disposed of a fridge (!!) then someone, somewhere will have 'evidence' of this blog. I presume this was supposed to have been a fridge from another of the Ocean Club apartments where the family were moved to after Madelene's disappearance? Rather than the villa the were eventually obliged to hire after OC finally managed to eject them in the summer?

I think it was also reported that Gerry blogged that the people at the dump had been very friendly - the mind boggles at all this. If true, these people are witnesses to this action. And fridges are difficult to dispose of. Plus if dumps on Portugal are Anything like dumps in the UK, people who work there sift quite carefully through the waste. Separating items - especially big household appliances. Often anything that shows any sign of potential for rescue or repair will be seized upon. If the product cannot be reconditioned it may be stripped down and out. Or there may be rules governing disposal of large items.

If the fridge blog story is true then I imagine that it may have been a message to someone or some people - but what extraordinary arrogance to believe that he could write something so incriminating without arising suspicion.

He might just as well have blogged about disposal of the swag bag, mask and striped top, IMO.

by Research_Reader 08.08.14 10:00

If anyone knows what his blog URL was it might be possible to find an archived version of it here:

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by canada12 08.08.14 15:59

Research_Reader wrote:If anyone knows what his blog URL was it might be possible to find an archived version of it here:

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It's impossible to find. Long whooshed. There are those of us from the old Mirror Forum and the 3A's who distinctly recall reading this and discussing it. There was a blog mention but more than that, there was a story in one of the Portuguese ex-pat English language papers. I remember reading the story. The McCanns had moved to another another villa or flat. I don't think it was the Ocean Club. The owner of the place expressed bemusement that Gerry had removed the fridge, which he had said was broken, and replaced it on his own. The owner of the place said that if Gerry had just come to him to report the fridge broken, he would happily have replaced it. But he wasn't consulted and it wasn't reported to him.. I remember the lengthy discussion on either the Mirror Forum or 3A's, when we talked about all of the things which could cause a fridge to break - including running the motor nonstop for x number of days at the lowest temperature possible. We also discussed fridge sizes and what size of fridge this likely was (very small, apartment sized). So it wasn't a forum myth. It's just all been very much whooshed, and there doesn't seem to be any way to retrieve any of it unless there are records from the old Mirror Forum or 3A's that didn't disappear when the forums disappeared. By the way, I also recall recalling this well after the fact on one of those forums, and there were concerted attempts by several people to try and convince me that I had imagined it or made it up. I know what I read and I know what I discussed, and this was definitely one of those hot potatoes that people worked very hard to expunge from all written records.

ETA: The one way to verify this would be for someone with access to the actual printed archives of all the English language Portuguese ex-pat papers in 2007 to physically try and find the right paper, and then find the story. If it was printed, it existed. I'm almost certain it wasn't just an online journal, but I could be wrong about that.

by Justformaddie 08.08.14 16:54

I remember reading this too, about a yr ago, somewhere, even gm mentioning the people at the dump being supportive. Where did it go? Whooshed, like others.

by Research_Reader 08.08.14 17:01

canada12 wrote:
Research_Reader wrote:If anyone knows what his blog URL was it might be possible to find an archived version of it here:

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It's impossible to find. Long whooshed. There are those of us from the old Mirror Forum and the 3A's who distinctly recall reading this and discussing it. There was a blog mention but more than that, there was a story in one of the Portuguese ex-pat English language papers. I remember reading the story. The McCanns had moved to another another villa or flat. I don't think it was the Ocean Club. The owner of the place expressed bemusement that Gerry had removed the fridge, which he had said was broken, and replaced it on his own. The owner of the place said that if Gerry had just come to him to report the fridge broken, he would happily have replaced it. But he wasn't consulted and it wasn't reported to him.. I remember the lengthy discussion on either the Mirror Forum or 3A's, when we talked about all of the things which could cause a fridge to break - including running the motor nonstop for x number of days at the lowest temperature possible. We also discussed fridge sizes and what size of fridge this likely was (very small, apartment sized). So it wasn't a forum myth. It's just all been very much whooshed, and there doesn't seem to be any way to retrieve any of it unless there are records from the old Mirror Forum or 3A's that didn't disappear when the forums disappeared. By the way, I also recall recalling this well after the fact on one of those forums, and there were concerted attempts by several people to try and convince me that I had imagined it or made it up. I know what I read and I know what I discussed, and this was definitely one of those hot potatoes that people worked very hard to expunge from all written records.

ETA: The one way to verify this would be for someone with access to the actual printed archives of all the English language Portuguese ex-pat papers in 2007 to physically try and find the right paper, and then find the story. If it was printed, it existed. I'm almost certain it wasn't just an online journal, but I could be wrong about that.

Canada12, is it not possible that someone has the link to that blog stored somewhere - in an email perhaps ? Just the link is all we'd need. I understand that the page itself is down now, but that link I gave (http://archive.org/web/) has archives of a lot of the web going back years.

by canada12 08.08.14 18:11

Research_Reader wrote:

Canada12, is it not possible that someone has the link to that blog stored somewhere - in an email perhaps ? Just the link is all we'd need. I understand that the page itself is down now, but that link I gave (http://archive.org/web/) has archives of a lot of the web going back years.

Gerry's mention of it is long gone and probably permanently deleted. He deleted or changed some of his blog entries over time. It wasn't the subject of an entire blog. Just a mention in one of his blogs.

The better source of information would be the newspaper story. If anyone could locate that, it would be like gold.

by Research_Reader 08.08.14 18:21

canada12 wrote:
Research_Reader wrote:

Canada12, is it not possible that someone has the link to that blog stored somewhere - in an email perhaps ? Just the link is all we'd need. I understand that the page itself is down now, but that link I gave (http://archive.org/web/) has archives of a lot of the web going back years.

Gerry's mention of it is long gone and probably permanently deleted. He deleted or changed some of his blog entries over time. It wasn't the subject of an entire blog. Just a mention in one of his blogs.

The better source of information would be the newspaper story. If anyone could locate that, it would be like gold.

Yes I understand that he's deleted it. What I'm asking is whether anyone might have had the link to where it was when it was still up and live? The page that I referred to has extensive *archives* of webpages: ie saved 'snapshots' of pages that no longer exist.

by logical 08.08.14 18:43

Check out

fortum2.aimoo/Madeleine Mc can.com/individual _topics/fridge

According to sources there, A Mr &Mrs Hubbard owned the apartment

Gerry supposedly replaced the fridge freezer.

by Research_Reader 08.08.14 18:43

I've found the archive but I don't think that particular blog was archived at the time. Does anyone know approximately what day it would have been?

You can see some archived snap-shots of the official site from May 13th 2007 onwards here: http://web.archive.org/web/20070201000000*/http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com

And there is an archive of 'Day 20' onwards here:
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by canada12 08.08.14 20:07

logical wrote:Check out

fortum2.aimoo/Madeleine Mc can.com/individual _topics/fridge

According to sources there, A Mr &Mrs Hubbard owned the apartment

Gerry supposedly replaced the fridge freezer.

Thanks logical - this is the correct link:
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It's really just a discussion board, with someone remembering the same newspaper story and blog mention that I remember. There isn't any actual newspaper story or blog capture, though the discussion is interesting about whether or not the villa mentioned with the new kitchen appliances is the same one that the McCanns stayed in.

by Guest 08.08.14 21:08

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Hi, Research_Reader. This was discussed a couple of months ago on the above thread. One of the screenshots of the blog on Pamalam's site shows the old URL, I've copied it below.

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AndyB had a look on the archives for fridge mentions to no avail. He reckons any reference must have been whooshed before the blog was archived.

If you can use the redundant URL to recover any editions of the the blog that Pamalam didn't screenshot then that could be a useful excercise, though. Bet there's all sorts of amendments and interesting snippets hidden within.

by Guest 08.08.14 21:14

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The above is a link to the blogs Pamalam saved. Pretty comprehensive, and a fascinating read.