The Catamaran Trip

by Guest 07.05.14 20:46

Just wanted to start a new thread on this which started being discussed on the 'Maddie cops start digging at resort' thread.

As far as i'm aware it has not been discussed in any depth before on this forum. (Couldn't find anything anyway).

I find this a very interesting subject (might just be me), but we have 2 people from the Tapas group. Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'Brien. 2 people who decide to take a Catamaran a mile out into the Atlantic ocean the very same day that the most famous missing little girl goes... err MISSING.

Coincidence?

MO statement:

And then I went down to the beach with Russell and we actually went sailing for part of the evening, erm, for part of the afternoon,

Freudian slip. Was it the evening they went out? Quieter, darker etc.

Now you have 2 guys by all accounts have never been on a Catamaran before. They go a mile out into the Atlantic which would be almost suicidal for inexperienced sailors.

Now the 'mile out' could be a slight or massive over exaggeration. Remember this is Matthew. The same Matthew who isn't a runner, doesn't go jogging but decided to go for a steady 8 mile run with Kate along the beach.

That doesn't add up and neither does this from his statement:

I fell off the back and so we got sort of stranded in the water and he didn't really know how to sail but managed to bring the boat round and I was sort of like a mile from shore thinking I'm going to have to swim all the way back or he's going to run me down with the boat, but he actually did really well and actually managed to pick me up on the back of the boat.

Snipped from another posters comment that sums the above up very well:

Mmm. A mile from shore something falls off a catamaran, a person slips into the water; the other guy WHO DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO SAIL manages to bring the boat round (= a catamaran; have you ever sailed one, let alone single handed, let alone managed to turn one around?)
Oh, and: how do you pull up a grown up guy from the water into a catamaran, singlehanded?
It cannot be done

From Canada12's comment which is a very interesting thought:

Interesting that the catamaran incident was supposed to have happened on the Thursday afternoon.
Perhaps it was a reconnaissance trip? To drop something (not Madeleine's body) into the water and see where the currents might take it? And Gerry and Kate's jogging trips thereafter, to the top of the cliff where they could see the entire beach area, were to see if what was dropped overboard ever washed up on the beaches and if so, where and when?
So that they might be able to judge what might happen if, eventually (not right away) they finally disposed of Madeleine's body in the water, months later.
Just a thought. In my opinion only.

As i mentioned on a post on the other thread.

It would be interesting to know if GA looked into this Catamaran trip at all (cant find any info)
Where did the Catamaran come from.
Who hired it.
Who paid for it.
What time was it booked out.
What time did it return.
Were there any witnesses of this trip. (and i don't mean David Payne's say so)

Now with the evidence of the Hire Car and likelihood that a body was transported in it then i'm not suggesting a body was dumped into the sea (then). However IMO there was a reason they went as far out as they did. Were they disposing of other items. (blanket, toothbrush, shower curtain etc). Were they testing the sea current and dumping something completely innocent.

I just find it very strange that if true and they did go a mile out in the sea, which is a big safety risk. They just so happened to do it on the very same day that MBM vanished from this planet...

by canada12 07.05.14 20:56

IIRC there were some clothing items or a bag or something that were spotted washed up on some rocks near to the resort around the same time that Madeleine disappeared. There was a lot of speculation about what it might be, and I can't remember if anything was ever retrieved. The info then just sort of quietly disappeared as being not relevant to the search. But this is what started me thinking that perhaps they had done a test drop of some material to see whether it would be washed out to sea or if it would come back to shore. And perhaps because it came back to shore, the idea of disposing of Madeleine's body at sea was ruled out...?

I thought perhaps, too, like you, that it might have been a disposal trip, to get rid of articles of clothing or other objects. Once in seawater for some time, even if they washed up on shore, perhaps the seawater would have rinsed out any incriminating evidence...?

All IMO.

by Guest 07.05.14 21:19

canada12 wrote:IIRC there were some clothing items or a bag or something that were spotted washed up on some rocks near to the resort around the same time that Madeleine disappeared. There was a lot of speculation about what it might be, and I can't remember if anything was ever retrieved. The info then just sort of quietly disappeared as being not relevant to the search. But this is what started me thinking that perhaps they had done a test drop of some material to see whether it would be washed out to sea or if it would come back to shore. And perhaps because it came back to shore, the idea of disposing of Madeleine's body at sea was ruled out...?

I thought perhaps, too, like you, that it might have been a disposal trip, to get rid of articles of clothing or other objects. Once in seawater for some time, even if they washed up on shore, perhaps the seawater would have rinsed out any incriminating evidence...?

All IMO.

Never heard or read anything in regards to items of clothing or a bag being washed up around that time. Very interesting again.

Certainly seems plausible to do a 'dummy run'. A test as to what would happen. To keep something weighted down for a long long time at the bottom of the ocean.. Well you would have to have incredibly heavy weights.

Trail and error job maybe. Bought a few items of clothes from the supermarket. Stuffed it in a bag, dumped it a mile out and see what happens.

I'm certain seawater would get rid of fingerprints of anything handled etc. Not sure about blood, cadaver etc though..

by Nina 07.05.14 21:23

Andrew77R wrote:
canada12 wrote:IIRC there were some clothing items or a bag or something that were spotted washed up on some rocks near to the resort around the same time that Madeleine disappeared. There was a lot of speculation about what it might be, and I can't remember if anything was ever retrieved. The info then just sort of quietly disappeared as being not relevant to the search. But this is what started me thinking that perhaps they had done a test drop of some material to see whether it would be washed out to sea or if it would come back to shore. And perhaps because it came back to shore, the idea of disposing of Madeleine's body at sea was ruled out...?

I thought perhaps, too, like you, that it might have been a disposal trip, to get rid of articles of clothing or other objects. Once in seawater for some time, even if they washed up on shore, perhaps the seawater would have rinsed out any incriminating evidence...?

All IMO.
Never heard or read anything in regards to items of clothing or a bag being washed up around that time. Very interesting again.

Certainly seems plausible to do a 'dummy run'. A test as to what would happen. To keep something weighted down for a long long time at the bottom of the ocean.. Well you would have to have incredibly heavy weights.

Trail and error job maybe. Bought a few items of clothes from the supermarket. Stuffed it in a bag, dumped it a mile out and see what happens.

I'm certain seawater would get rid of fingerprints of anything handled etc. Not sure about blood, cadaver etc though..

I do, it was a black plastic bin liner caught in a crevice in a cave/headland. Gosh that was years ago.

by Guest 07.05.14 21:31

Nina wrote:

I do, it was a black plastic bin liner caught in a crevice in a cave/headland. Gosh that was years ago.

Was it ever said what was in the black plastic bin liner.....

by petunia 07.05.14 21:32

We read in the media SY are going to did around the beach area...maybe they will dig an area when the tide is out rather than an area when the tide would be in.Just a thought on my part.

by Guest 07.05.14 21:43

Nina wrote:

I do, it was a black plastic bin liner caught in a crevice in a cave/headland. Gosh that was years ago.

I wonder if that is anything to do with what Margaret posted on the other thread.

Not heard about that either. Lots more reading up for me.

Copied and Pasted:

Funny how parts of 'stories' overlap. Wasn't it Charlotte Pennington who reported seeing a man, in the dark, after Maddie had been abducted, putting a black package onto a boat at the beach, kicking it, before setting off..... anyone remember this.

by ultimaThule 07.05.14 21:46

RO'B and MO's catamaran trip has been referred to on numerous threads and deserves its own topic in order that various points of information can be drawn together.

However, O'Brien didn't wait until 3 May before taking to the water [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and I seem to recall mention somewhere on this forum of him being an experienced seafarer and more than competent oceanographer, which makes his account of falling into the sea from the catamaran and having to be rescued by his novice sailing pal, MO who would have been completely out of his depth (pun intended), somewhat unlikely, but the fact that RO'B allegedly found himself temporarily at the mercy of the cruel sea provides explanation as to why the pair were late bringing the craft back to shore.

The saying has it that 'things go in threes' and on 3rd May 2007 we find that GM allegedly injured his Achilles tendon, RO'B allegedly almost drowned, and Madeleine McCann was allegedly 'taken' from her bed never to be seen again.

The power of 3 was again at work the following day when O'Brien/Tanner, the Paynes, and the Oldfields, followed the example of the McCanns and ~~offloaded~~ placed their very young children in their respective MW kids clubs despite the events of the previous night..

by HelenMeg 07.05.14 22:02

As you say, its all very interesting. Sailing in such boats is quite technical (even in sailing dinghies). You have to understand sailing manoeuvres e.g. how to jibe and tack and use the wind to get to where you need to.
In the Atlantic it would be surely very dangerous to sail unsupervised unless one of you at least had some experience. I imagine that either Matt or Russel knew what they were doing. To go a mile out would be ridiculous without knowledge.
But why leave it until the 5th or 6th day of your holiday before going sailing?Unless there was some specific reason. It does sound very plausible that they were testing currents or flow of objects. I cant imagine that this was about discarding the body, but perhaps very likely to be trying to dispose of something e.g. clothes / towels etc.

I simply dont believe that one fell in the water .. I suspect that is an excuse to cover for something. Maybe the length of time they were out there or perhaps they thought someone might have been observing them
and would have seen a disturbance as they discarded stuff form the boat. You dont fall out of those things - not if you're experienced and not if you're inexperienced. It would be interesting to compare both of their statements relating to this trip.

Why did they choose to go sailing on the 3rd May? Was it to get away and discuss together the events - or were they on a mission to try and find out how best to discard something? Jane's jeans?

Very good idea to start this thread...

by Guest 07.05.14 22:07

Can any Tom, Dick or Harriet really just rock up and hire an ocean going catamaran, by the hour?

by uppatoffee 07.05.14 22:18

Clay Regazzoni wrote:Can any Tom, Dick or Harriet really just rock up and hire an ocean going catamaran, by the hour?

It is likely that this was just a small racing cat, not a big catamaran. This would make a man overboard situation a lot more likely, as they are pretty lightweight and don't really have proper seats to sit on.
Pretty easy to hire and no qualifications required either.

by Guest 07.05.14 22:20

Clay Regazzoni wrote:Can any Tom, Dick or Harriet really just rock up and hire an ocean going catamaran, by the hour?

Haha - yeah sounds ridiculous.

Oldfield like's to exaggerate and the Tapas do like to tell porkies.

Maybe it was a Pedalo they hired out instead...

by HelenMeg 07.05.14 22:38

uppatoffee wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:Can any Tom, Dick or Harriet really just rock up and hire an ocean going catamaran, by the hour?

It is likely that this was just a small racing cat, not a big catamaran. This would make a man overboard situation a lot more likely, as they are pretty lightweight and don't really have proper seats to sit on.
Pretty easy to hire and no qualifications required either.

Yes very lightweight - but still no reason to fall out
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by wilbeth 07.05.14 23:30

I have been on several holidays with Mark Warner, though have not stayed at Ocean Club in Portugal. All waterfront activities with MW are run pretty much the same way. Included in the price of the holiday is pretty much unlimited access to sailing dinghies and smallish catamaran's, windsurfs, canoes etc.. The boats are usually lent out in the morning, closing for lunch and then again in the afternoon. You are allowed to sail in a designated area only marked out by buoys. Mark Warner staff are out in speed boats on the water ensuring the no one sails outside of the designated areas. The area's are certainly not a mile out. Having nearly sailed out of an area myself - I know how strict the staff are - and was brought back inside very promptly! At all the resorts I have been to there is a final race for those that want to take part at 5pm - once finished its all shut down - so there is no opportunity to take a boat out in the evening. Just some info on how Mark Warner runs things.

by Guest 07.05.14 23:32

HelenMeg wrote:
uppatoffee wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:Can any Tom, Dick or Harriet really just rock up and hire an ocean going catamaran, by the hour?

It is likely that this was just a small racing cat, not a big catamaran. This would make a man overboard situation a lot more likely, as they are pretty lightweight and don't really have proper seats to sit on.
Pretty easy to hire and no qualifications required either.
Yes very lightweight - but still no reason to fall out
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Especially as you need to wear a harness to sail one

by sar 08.05.14 0:13

"look at us! ..just a couple of guys, goofing around in the water, schucks!!!! Aint it swell out here!" [Later]: "Remember when I fell in and you had to save me?? Hilarious!, what with me being the expert n'all. Guffaww...

[Much Later]: Man in police interview recalls every minute detail of f*****g about with his bezzy mate on a boat but can't remember his dinner that night??? Bulls**t

by ultimaThule 08.05.14 4:11

Clay Regazzoni wrote:Can any Tom, Dick or Harriet really just rock up and hire an ocean going catamaran, by the hour?

Providing only that they were guests of MW, it would seem that back in May 2007, any old Matt, Russ, or Dave, could indeed rock up and engage in a variety of watersports including catamaraning, Clay.

Given O'Brien's particular expertise at nautical pursuits I wouldn't put too much reliance on him not venturing further than a specified distance and, more especially, as it was early in the season and the weather was unlikely to have produced queues of guests eager for the shout of 'come in no.6 your time is up'.

:flower: After an absence in which you've been sorely missed (see thread in the Member's Lounge), I'm delighted you're posting again and hope all has been well with you and your family. thumbsup

Eta said thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Guest 08.05.14 7:45

@UT,

In regards to Matthew Oldfield.

You quote - 'Experienced seafarer. More than a competent oceanographer. Expertise in nautical pursuits'

Can i ask where you have concluded this from?

Snipped from his Rog:

4078 'Right. And what were your interests, what did you intend to sort of be doing that week''
Reply 'Erm, sailing, for me, because, erm, it's, it's a thing I really enjoy but don't have any opportunity to at home.

And I'd been, we'd been down to the beach a couple of times before but we'd end up going canoeing and I'd always wanted to go sailing because the boats that I'd really like to sale are the big catamarans, they've got some (inaudible) cats, which are, erm, sort of sixteen foot long, but you ideally need, certainly in a breeze, you need two people to weight them down or they tend to turn over, so I'd always been trying to get him out on one of those and he sort of agreed to, erm, and he didn't have confidence in my sailing abilities,

I read that as he yeah he enjoys sailing but never has any opportunity to do so at home. So once maybe twice a year he does a bit of sailing when on holiday. Wouldn't class that as an 'experienced seafarer'?

He would really like to sail a big Catamaran. I read that as in he has never sailed one before?
I would really like to drive a Formula 1 car. I have never driven one before.

He didn't have any confidence in my sailing abilities. If he was experienced in nautical pursuits then surely his mate would have confidence in him?

You said 'he didn't wait until the 3rd of May before taking to the water'. He says that he went to the beach a couple of times before and did some canoeing.

Spot of canoeing for the odd hour is slightly different to going a mile out into the Atlantic.

To top it off. He fall's overboard when he's out there. If he was experienced then he should be harnessed to the boat. Therefore always be in close proximity to the boat. Not thinking that he might have to swim a mile back. However good old Russ manages to take control, sail off, turn it around, and drag him back up in one expert manoeuvre...

So surely it's Russ then who is the experienced seafarer.

He talk's some nonsense does our Matt!!!!

ETA - Sorry UT, just re-read your 2 posts. You actually said it was O'Brien and not Oldfield that is the experienced one. Is that right?

Got the impression that is was supposed to be Oldfield who was the experienced one?

by ultimaThule 08.05.14 8:48

In my two posts on this thread I have referred to Russell O'Brien as being an 'experienced seafarer and more than competent oceanographer' and 'having expertise in nautical pursuits', Andrew, which makes it all the more curious that he fell of the catarman and had to wait for MO to save him from a watery grave, presupposing he wouldn't have been able to doggy-paddle his way to shore or float (presumably they were both wearing life-jackets) until a passing cruise* ship fished him out of the Atlantic.

*As one of a group of ~~self~~ important doctors, I've spared RO'B the indignity of potentially having been dredged up by a sardine fisherman. smilie

by Guest 08.05.14 8:56

ultimaThule wrote:In my two posts on this thread I have referred to Russell O'Brien as being an 'experienced seafarer and more than competent oceanographer' and 'having expertise in nautical pursuits', Andrew, which makes it all the more curious that he fell of the catarman and had to wait for MO to save him from a watery grave, presupposing he wouldn't have been able to doggy-paddle his way to shore or float (presumably they were both wearing life-jackets) until a passing cruise* ship fished him out of the Atlantic.

*As one of a group of ~~self~~ important doctors, I've spared RO'B the indignity of potentially having been dredged up by a sardine fisherman.

It was MO that fell overboard. Not RO'B????

by Guest 08.05.14 9:29

Snipped from RO'B's rog:

1578 “Let’s start with going to the beach and it was late afternoon I understand?”
Reply “Well we, me and Matt had gone down to the beach to go on, as I say, Matt’s a good, quite a good sailor and we took one of the, the, erm, the catamarans out. So we’d gone down, erm, just after lunch, probably after the kids had gone back to the Kids Club, so two, two o’clock, two or three o’clock, and had quite a long sail, erm, we were out for a long time, Matt sailed for a bit and then I sailed for a bit and he kind of gave me a bit of a lesson really. Erm, as I said, he, he got bounced overboard and the kind of wire snapped and I had to learn quite quickly how to turn a catamaran round and not run someone over in the water with it. So we pick, you know, we picked him back up, erm, a boat came back out and repaired, you know, kind of repaired the, the bit that had snapped, erm, it was the harness.

by Guest 08.05.14 9:52

Ladyinred wrote:Snipped from RO'B's rog:

1578 “Let’s start with going to the beach and it was late afternoon I understand?”
Reply “Well we, me and Matt had gone down to the beach to go on, as I say, Matt’s a good, quite a good sailor and we took one of the, the, erm, the catamarans out. So we’d gone down, erm, just after lunch, probably after the kids had gone back to the Kids Club, so two, two o’clock, two or three o’clock, and had quite a long sail, erm, we were out for a long time, Matt sailed for a bit and then I sailed for a bit and he kind of gave me a bit of a lesson really. Erm, as I said, he, he got bounced overboard and the kind of wire snapped and I had to learn quite quickly how to turn a catamaran round and not run someone over in the water with it. So we pick, you know, we picked him back up, erm, a boat came back out and repaired, you know, kind of repaired the, the bit that had snapped, erm, it was the harness.

Sounds a bit fishy..

Very vague on timings. 'Gone down just after lunch and probably after the kids had gone back to the kids club. Maybe 2, maybe 3 pm?

'Long sail. Out a long time'. What's a long time then. 2 hours, 3 hours, more? And what time did you get back???

'Quickly learned how to turn a catamaran around'. Yeah right mate!!

What's the chances of a harness just snapping?.

'WE picked him back up'. Who is WE?

So how did they call for 'another' boat to come out to do a quick repair job when a mile out in the Atlantic?

You would be hard pushed to even see them from the shoreline being a mile out?

Why didn't Matthew mention any of this codswollop about another boat?

Any proof of this repair job at sea i wonder??

As usual - it doesn't make sense.

by Guest 08.05.14 10:03

Snipped from ROB's rog, discussing Thurs 3rd May (from McCannfiles):

1578 “And you then took her back down to the beach?”
Reply “We went back down to the beach. I suppose be a bit more specific about what happened on the beach. Erm, yeah, ‘We didn’t stick to the usual routine that day’, erm, ‘ate their tea at the bar on the beach called the Paradiso. Everyone was there except Kate, Gerry and the kids’. It might be worth just saying ‘I believe Dianne was there as well’, because that’s the only person, I’m not entirely sure, we did, we did, erm, occasionally pop there during the day on a number of occasions, rarely in the week or after the abduction, but I’m pretty sure Dianne was there. I think, I say ‘I think Dave went to his apartment and Kate and Gerry’s’”.

by Liz Eagles 08.05.14 10:07

Ladyinred wrote:Snipped from ROB's rog, discussing Thurs 3rd May (from McCannfiles):

1578 “And you then took her back down to the beach?”
Reply “We went back down to the beach. I suppose be a bit more specific about what happened on the beach. Erm, yeah, ‘We didn’t stick to the usual routine that day’, erm, ‘ate their tea at the bar on the beach called the Paradiso. Everyone was there except Kate, Gerry and the kids’. It might be worth just saying ‘I believe Dianne was there as well’, because that’s the only person, I’m not entirely sure, we did, we did, erm, occasionally pop there during the day on a number of occasions, rarely in the week or after the abduction, but I’m pretty sure Dianne was there. I think, I say ‘I think Dave went to his apartment and Kate and Gerry’s’”.

The 'usual routine' oh for goodness' sake - they'd only been there for five days! what on God's earth could convince anyone that there was a 'routine'?

by **PeterMac** 08.05.14 10:18

They are just little toy catamarans, effectively two canoes strapped together, with a sail smaller than a windsurfer.
If they went more than 250m of shore they would be called back.
A MILE is 'ludicrous' and would attract air-sea rescue.
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Just out of interest, there is someone in a black cossie digging and burying something ! !