help needed

Can some one point me in the direction of the person who said the twins were not in the bedroom on the night Madeleine went missing please

tiny wrote:Can some one point me in the direction of the person who said the twins were not in the bedroom on the night Madeleine went missing please

I think IIRC it was Charlotte Pennington...........I might be wrong though.

candyfloss wrote:

tiny wrote:Can some one point me in the direction of the person who said the twins were not in the bedroom on the night Madeleine went missing please

I think IIRC it was Charlotte Pennington...........I might be wrong though.

thanks candyfloss,will go and have a look

it was CP, who had been no duty at the evening crèche and who heard from the last parent to collect a child JUST BEFORE 10PM THAT SOMEONE HAD BEEN HEARD NEARBY CALLING A NAME, GABY OR MADDY.. recognising the name from a group cared for by a colleague, she made her way to 5a, this being the scene


"There were no children in the room. The twins had been taken out already, I think by one of the McCanns' friends. "

 Yet I am sure I read elsewhere that she never entered 5a, will try to find that snippet !

Just read her statement and she did say she never went into the apartment

tiny wrote:Just read her statement and she did say she never went into the apartment

No, it wasn't in her statement, IIRC it was an interview in a newspaper.

candyfloss wrote:

tiny wrote:Just read her statement and she did say she never went into the apartment

No, it wasn't in her statement, IIRC it was an interview in a newspaper.

thanks candyfloss.

This quote rings alarm bells for me:

"There were no children in the room. The twins had been taken out already, I think by one of the McCanns' friends."

It doesn't matter who took them, there's no reason to mention the detail. I see this addition as unnecessary elaboration, which may be an indication of deception.

russiandoll wrote:it was CP, who had been no duty at the evening crèche and who heard from the last parent to collect a child JUST BEFORE 10PM THAT SOMEONE HAD BEEN HEARD NEARBY CALLING A NAME, GABY OR MADDY.. recognising the name from a group cared for by a colleague, she made her way to 5a, this being the scene


"There were no children in the room. The twins had been taken out already, I think by one of the McCanns' friends. "

 Yet I am sure I read elsewhere that she never entered 5a, will try to find that snippet !

Were the twins not taken out much later after the PJ arrived as the PJ commentated later on that they found it strange the twins didn't wake throughout all the commotion........

Andrew77R wrote:
Were the twins not taken out much later after the PJ arrived as the PJ commentated later on that they found it strange the twins didn't wake throughout all the commotion........

'Between 00.00 and 00.30, the police arrived, entered by the main door and went to the kitchen with Gerry. Hotel manager E. L. K. went to the bedroom where Kate and Mrs Payne were. Kate was still upset, crying and calling Madeleine's name, shouting "where is she?" She also banged on the headboard. At that moment Hotel manager E. L. K. went to check on the twins in their room and they were ok. She remembers being in the main bedroom with Kate, Mrs Payne, Gerry, Russell and David who were sitting on the bed and she sat on the floor. At that moment David suggested that the press should be contacted. Russell disagreed, saying they should keep calm and let the police take care of the situation.

...

'PJ Officer V. M. M. arrived on the scene at about 00.40/00.50.
At the scene, there were already some elements from the GNR and some people walking around the OC grounds, searching for the child.

In the apartment where the family was staying, there were different persons, including the friends of the girl's parents, who were immediately invited to leave the apartment, in order to preserve the scene. Inside the room that was indicated as being that of the missing girl, there were two children, babies, who appeared to sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room.

A request was made to the OC services director for the family to be re-allocated and accordingly the babies were taken out of the room, so that the site could be searched.'

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Andrew77R wrote:

russiandoll wrote:it was CP, who had been no duty at the evening crèche and who heard from the last parent to collect a child JUST BEFORE 10PM THAT SOMEONE HAD BEEN HEARD NEARBY CALLING A NAME, GABY OR MADDY.. recognising the name from a group cared for by a colleague, she made her way to 5a, this being the scene


"There were no children in the room. The twins had been taken out already, I think by one of the McCanns' friends. "

 Yet I am sure I read elsewhere that she never entered 5a, will try to find that snippet !

Were the twins not taken out much later after the PJ arrived as the PJ commentated later on that they found it strange the twins didn't wake throughout all the commotion........

Im sure it was a nanny who said this,but I have read all their statements again and couldn't find it,i have been reading silvia Batista.s statement again and she mentions the twins in their cots and that's what made me ask,  a very interesting 3rd statement from her (McCann pj files)                    

This might be of help,


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For me the key issue with Pennington - apart from her ever-changing story and series of extraordinary coincidences - is that if she was there at the time she says was then there simply wasn't time if Kate had raised the alarm at 10pm.

I think that either:

1. Kate raised the alarm much earlier, not before 9:45pm, or
2. Charlotte Pennington was already there, or
3. Charlotte Pennington wasn't there at all and her account is fiction from start to finish.

I don't find option 3 likely, there must have been some reason for her to have been involved.

IMO the sleeping arrangements and position of cots/beds/who slept in what/when are an interesting aspect in this case and one, like so many others such as windows, doors, checking, photos etc. are confusing.  Kate herself admitted that she slept in a single bed in the room where MBM usually slept on the 2nd because she was annoyed with Gerry for flirting, yet he assumed it was because of his snoring.  However, they didn't appear to discuss it, even though Kate stated that sleeping apart would never have happened at home.  Now, what could have happened on holiday that would have caused them to sleep apart the night before their daughter disappeared?

tiny wrote:

Andrew77R wrote:

russiandoll wrote:it was CP, who had been no duty at the evening crèche and who heard from the last parent to collect a child JUST BEFORE 10PM THAT SOMEONE HAD BEEN HEARD NEARBY CALLING A NAME, GABY OR MADDY.. recognising the name from a group cared for by a colleague, she made her way to 5a, this being the scene


"There were no children in the room. The twins had been taken out already, I think by one of the McCanns' friends. "

 Yet I am sure I read elsewhere that she never entered 5a, will try to find that snippet !

Were the twins not taken out much later after the PJ arrived as the PJ commentated later on that they found it strange the twins didn't wake throughout all the commotion........

Im sure it was a nanny who said this,but I have read all their statements again and couldn't find it,i have been reading silvia Batista.s statement again and she mentions the twins in their cots and that's what made me ask,  a very interesting 3rd statement from her (McCann pj files)                    

CP is as much a pathological liar as Kate, and in narcissism they don't differ too much either. Must be fun to hear these in a conversation.

From Silvia Batiste 3rd statement. 26 July 2007  

  soon after the PJ officers
arrived, the parents took the twins from their beds where they were sleeping, taking them up to the
apartment on the first floor.
so pennington was wrong .

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:For me the key issue with Pennington - apart from her ever-changing story and series of extraordinary coincidences - is that if she was there at the time she says was then there simply wasn't time if Kate had raised the alarm at 10pm.

I think that either:

1. Kate raised the alarm much earlier, not before 9:45pm, or
2. Charlotte Pennington was already there, or
3. Charlotte Pennington wasn't there at all and her account is fiction from start to finish.

I don't find option 3 likely, there must have been some reason for her to have been involved.

There are some odd anomalies in the timeline published on the mccanfiles website which suggest Madeleine was discovered to be missing quite a bit earlier than the 10pm claimed by Kate:-

"21:15/21:30 Between approximately a quarter past nine and half past nine, Ocean Club guest S.C. and his wife left the Tapas bar to go home: "We walked across the MW reception area, crossed the road and a semi-circular path to return to the apartment, were we put the children to bed and a short while later did the same ourselves. I do not remember seeing or hearing anyone during our return to the apartment. When I crossed the road outside the MW reception I remember there were cars parked, I remember taking some time to see if I could cross the road because there were cars parked to my left and I was carrying I****. They were about six metres away from me and I calculate that some (inaudible) metres from the back of Gerry's apartment, I do not remember anything about these cars, it was normal for cars to be parked there and in the morning they were no longer there. My wife mentioned on the following day that she vaguely remembered someone calling "Madeleine, Madeleine", this was after we had crossed the road from the MW reception and before entering our apartment. She does not remember where the sound came from or whether it was in an urgent tone, not paying any more attention to it and only remembered the following day when we heard about Madeleine's disappearance".

21:20, Executive Chef A.E.G.F.P. heard some clamour, which made him leave toward the restaurant, a few metres away, and was then informed that a child had disappeared.

At around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;

Property manager B.J.J.W. heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21:30 – 21:40 from P.B., a Dutchman and owner of the Atlántico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in Praia da Luz, and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine. He then went to the place where the events occurred which was at about 21:45 – 21:50. At this time various local people and MW staff were present. When questioned he said that the police had not yet arrived and that about 5 minutes had passed.

Dinner finished at around 21:45 and some minutes passed where waiter R.A.E.D.L.O. looked towards the table but saw no one—his colleague told him that all the guests of that table left rapidly and abruptly. He remembers having heard shouts in the direction of the McCann apartment;

Between 21.30 and 22:00 Fitness instructor/Waiter J.R.S. went over to the table and joked with Dianne Webster: "They've left you alone?" She responded more of less with these words: "No, they went to see if the little girl was there." I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man, who I knew later to be Madeleine's father, running to the pool and to the children's play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Millennium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21:30 and 22:00 but do not remember with certainty.
Receptionist Ocean Club H.J.S.L. was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 21:30 and 22:00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared. He immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again."

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candyfloss wrote:This might be of help,


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Interesting that Charlotte Pennington played the character of Libby Bailey in the NZ soap Shortland Street, working on the show between 1996 and 1997 just around the time Kate was working in NZ, Gerry following her there to win her heart before returning home with her and marrying her in 1998. Could they have met her over there?

suep wrote:

candyfloss wrote:This might be of help,


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Interesting that Charlotte Pennington played the character of Libby Bailey in the NZ soap  Shortland Street, working on the show between 1996 and 1997  just around the time Kate was working in NZ, Gerry following her there to win her heart before returning home with her and marrying her in 1998. Could they have met her over there?

they could have,but according to her statement she does not say or know much about them.

another interesting thing in Silvia,s statement is that according to Gerry he found Madeleine missing,

Gerry said that when he discovered the disappearance of Madeleine he noticed that the window and the blinds were open and the curtains fluttering.

now I thought kate found Madeleine missing.

Charlotte was born in 1987 so was a child when Kate was in New Zealand; possibly she would not remember if they had met there.

Yes suep, I find the rogatory interview of Jeronimo Salcedas particularly interesting:

"On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.

"I went to find Ze and Ricardo to give them the news and to get their help in searching for the missing girl. I saw the head of the Milenium Restaurant in the Tapas and asked him to telephone the restaurant.

"I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child. We were sent to the beach zone and looked in all the alleys and called out the name of the child but did not find her. Later, we returned to the Tapas where we found John, the Manager of Mark Warner. There were many people now, perhaps 40 including the Mark Warner personnel. We were divided into groups and Ewan and Rob (both employed by Mark Warner), my cousin, Miguel, and I went in a Mark Warner vehicle to search a beach zone which included a construction site. Again, we did not see any signs of the child and after a telephone we returned to the Tapas."

This puts the sequence of events as:

- Sees Gerry running around looking for someone, heading towards the children's play area which is a natural place to look for a missing child
- Tapas staff now know that a girl has gone missing
- Woman screams, J.R.S believes it to be Kate McCann
- Searches being organized by Mark Warner employees

What I want to know is - where did Gerry go after talking to Salcedas (possibly between 9:30pm and 10pm)?  He was seen running towards the pool and the children's play area. After this point, his whereabouts are a mystery.

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ETA - '"I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive" could possibly be the moment that Charlotte Pennington arrived, if she arrived at all.

Yes, Charlotte Pennington, the girl who was an actress in a soap opera in NZ at the same time Kate and Gerry were there before they married.
Edited to add: the girl whose Wikepedia page has been whooshed.

Suep given the amount of young people on Facebook etc these days Id be certain that she is on that.
I personally don't believe she is in anyway involved anymore...

Salcedas statement has always stood out to me also,It throws me off my theory that something happened before 3rd May.

Bellisa wrote:Suep given the amount of young people on Facebook etc these days Id be certain that she is on that.
I personally don't believe she is in anyway involved anymore...

Salcedas statement has always stood out to me also,It throws me off my theory that something happened before 3rd May.

You're probably right about Charlotte, Bellisa, the NZ connection is probably just another of the many strange coincidences that surround this case.

The woman's scream mentioned by Salcedas has always puzzled me. If it was Kate it seems unlikely she would scream simply at finding Madeleine missing from her bed. It seems to have happened whilst they were all out calling the child's name and in my head conjures up images of Kate suddenly discovering her badly injured or dead. The extract from the timeline I posted earlier tells a completely different story to the one eventually told by the Tapas gang of 9 and strongly suggests that their first reaction to finding Madeleine gone from her bed was to assume she'd wandered off and to go out looking for her and calling her name.
If it then transpired that they discovered she'd had a fatal accident they would quickly realise that they were in deep trouble with the law.
ETA and IF the imaginary scenario above took place they would have to think of an alternative story quickly, such as an abduction. In that case it might be expedient to be heard saying something like "they've taken her" and to work out a timeline that demonstrated how conscientious you'd been at keeping an eye on your toddlers.

@Suep

Had that been the case there would have been no need for Payne to lie about seeing the children.
Your theory also doesn't explain the telephone traffic that week, the Murat connection and a host of other events. and most of all doesn't explain the two photos, photoshopped and printed  in the intervening two hours.
All this is based on is someone saying they heard a scream. Imo the accident theory on the night of the 3rd won't fly, although it is much beloved by apologists for the McCanns.
Post event it also doesn't explain why John McCann would give up his job.
An accident on the night with ensuing panic is a sort of halfway house between the abduction believers and the substantial evidence to the contrary.

Salcedas first says that he heard a scream from a woman he did not know. If they'd been at the Tapas every night how come he didn't know Kate?  A scream like he'd never heard before is a bit of embroidery imo.
The scream came after the alarm was raised. He does not say he was anywhere near 5a, so where would the body have been?