Dr Roberts again - just a short one. Logical, Captain.

by **PeterMac** Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:51 am

EXCLUSIVE to mccannfiles.com

By Dr Martin Roberts
04 December 2013

THE 'GET OUT' CLAUSE

Excerpt from Fiona Payne's Rogatory Interview (10.4.08)

1485 - "What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that?"
Reply - "She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh".
1485 - "So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking?"
Reply - "Yeah".
1485 - "Did she say whether she had locked or?"
Reply - "No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked".

The key question paraphrased
What was better for Madeleine if she woke up: That she could get out or, finding the door locked, she could not?

The decision
They left through the balcony door, which they left closed but not locked. (KM witness statement 6.9.2007)
'...a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked'. (GM witness statement 4.5.2007)

The resultant status
Balcony door left unlocked, therefore Madeleine could get out if she woke up.

Question 1.
If the sliding glass door was 'always unlocked', then why should the question as to what was best for Madeleine have arisen that Thursday evening? Supposing 'always' to have applied from the outset of the holiday, the decision had long since been made. Wasn't day six leaving it rather late to openly ponder the option of locking the patio door?

Question 2.
Given the resultant status of the apartment (unlocked patio door so that Madeleine could get out if she wanted), why have you since insisted that there was 'no way' Madeleine could get out of the apartment unaided?

Question 3.
Exactly why could Madeleine McCann not have walked from her bed to the patio door, left unlocked for her benefit?

by **PeterMac** Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:52 am

My answer to Q 3
Because she and the twins were so heavily sedated that they were not going to wake for the next 10 hours.

by bobbin Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:03 am

PeterMac wrote:My answer to Q 3
Because she and the twins were so heavily sedated that they were not going to wake for the next 10 hours.

Or that Madeleine was drugged so that all sorts of 'friends' or even 'errant people passing by' could go in and 'check' her, and the twins were in another apartment, to be brought down and placed in their 'no sheet' cots when all the hullaballoo kicked off and the 'abduction' story was played out in loud tones for all to see, and accept, as the only possible explanation for Madeleine 'not being in the bed which was so neatly folded back', as Gerry and Kate had allegedly left her. AIMO.

ETA or that she had been there at all that night.

by dentdelion Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:10 am

I thought fire risk was one of reason for the unlocked door. The children could hardly be expected to get themselves out in such an event but an open door would mean they could be more quickly rescued.

by bobbin Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:31 am

dentdelion wrote:I thought fire risk was one of reason for the unlocked door. The children could hardly be expected to get themselves out in such an event but an open door would mean they could be more quickly rescued.

'rescued' by whom, I wonder, by the McCanns, the parents themselves ? who would be able to enter with their key, or by someone else, who would be being more vigilant and on the scene quicker than the parents. Oh, yes, the shelving of the responsibility for a 'wine up with friends'.
Saving the children could become someone else's responsibility, someone who would detect the smoke before the parents would have had the time to either notice the 'symptoms' of a fire or make the distance back to the apartment in time to spare their three children's lives.
If someone else didn't appear in time, then Maddie would have to realise that time was running out and get her baby siblings out of their cots and herd them on the patio before carefully guiding them down the steps to the safety of the open road, at night, in a foreign country, wearing nothing but their pyjamas on a cold evening.
Yes, I'd call that responsible parenting, if I were totally off the chart.

by **PeterMac** Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:13 am

Where and how was this fire supposed to start.
Madeleine cooking some chips for the twins ?
Doing a bit of last minute DIY soldering round the broken washing machine ?
Having a crafty joint ?

by dentdelion Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:20 am

Yes I agree a ludicrous scenario. But I would be very 'fire' conscious in a multiple unit building and of danger of fumes. I am still surprised at high rate of smoking in some countries.

by Tilly-flop Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:46 am

So when on a previous evening Mrs Fenn heard M crying continuously for 1.5 hours and calling out 'daddy, daddy', are we right to assume the said patio doors were therefore locked? Otherwise, surely she would have made her way outside to find her daddy once she'd woken up and realised she and her siblings were on their own.

Or, does it maybe confirm that K was actually back in the apartment during this crying episode, and that is why M didn't attempt to leave the apartment.

Or, was someone else with M, and that she was crying because........ sorry I can't bring myself to type the rest....

by Liloleme Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:58 am

Or, was someone else with M, and that she was crying because........ sorry I can't bring myself to type the rest....

That poor child did not deserve parents like that

by Guest Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:42 pm

Spent a weekend with some grandchildren and their father

The moment he went out of the door, the kids started crying for their MOTHER

This, to me, illustrated that kids cry for their mother first, no matter what, as she is the parent whose name they pronounce most easily

I think a child would cry Daddy, if (a) Daddy was there with them or (b) They knew from experience that it was of no use to cry for their mother or (c) Mammy was doing the manhandling or whatever and they wanted Daddy to come to their aid

But, one cautionary remark, who was it that did the actual crying?
Could it have been one of the other Tapas babies left in the lurch?

by bobbin Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:42 pm

[quote="PeterMac"]Where and how was this fire supposed to start.
Madeleine cooking some chips for the twins ?
Doing a bit of last minute DIY soldering round the broken washing machine ?
Having a crafty joint ?[/quote
deleted double posting

by bobbin Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:45 pm

PeterMac wrote:Where and how was this fire supposed to start.
Madeleine cooking some chips for the twins ?
Doing a bit of last minute DIY soldering round the broken washing machine ?
Having a crafty joint ?

Accidentally knocking a switch on, on the hob, whilst reaching up for a can of beans because Tea at the Tapas and/or 'pasta', with milk and biscuits hadn't assuaged the hunger of a growing girl, and with a tea towel left on the rings 'irresponsibly'.
Or, an electrical fire ? I live in France and buildings are regularly going up in smoke for faulty electrics, sometimes even genuinely and not just for insurance reasons.

by Bishop Brennan Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:02 pm

If this is a logic thread, then:

Q. How many people leave their holiday house / apartment unlocked when they go out?
A. None

Q. How many of the T7 left their patio doors unlocked?
A. None.

Q. How many of the previous nights in the holiday did the McCanns leave it unlocked?
A. None.

Q. How many times did any 'watching abduction gang' see them use the patio for the 'checks'?
A. None.

And then:

Q. If Maddie had a history of waking up / crying / getting up. How many think it's a good idea to leave the doors open?
A. No-one

Q. If there had been a fire, how many think Maddie could have escaped - presumably getting the twins out their cot first?
A. No-one

The McCanns are smart people. They are middle class, home-owning professionals. They lock their doors, cars, windows, offices. They've done it all their life. They see 'thieves' everywhere - especially abroad. And especially if their apartment leads directly onto a side-street.

It is just not logical (or credible) to believe that on one night they changed the habits and logic of a lifetime and left that patio door unlocked.

Q. Chances of McCanns leaving the patio doors unlocked that night for no apparent reason?
A. Zero.

QED.

by Praiaaa Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:15 pm

bobbin wrote:[sometimes even genuinely and not just for insurance reasons.

by mysterion Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:30 pm

Sorry, but on a holiday in Crete, I found a toddler in our hotel corridor in her pjs. She was German so couldn`t communicate.Someone else went to reception to try and find the parents. They eventually turned up from their dinner with a "What is all the fuss about?" looks. So some parents do leave very young children alone in an unlocked room.

by Bishop Brennan Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:16 pm

mysterion wrote:Sorry, but on a holiday in Crete, I found a toddler in our hotel corridor in her pjs. She was German so couldn`t communicate.Someone else went to reception to try and find the parents. They eventually turned up from their dinner with a "What is all the fuss about?" looks. So some parents do leave very young children alone in an unlocked room.

Right - but as you say, your holiday experience was in a hotel. All but the most primitive hotel doors lock automatically when they are shut, but can always be opened by someone inside.

That's not the case with an apartment which can be fully secured, and I believe (for middle class parents such as the McCanns) always would be.

by The Rooster Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:04 pm

The Bishop is right. The McCanns are strangers to the truth and therefore they must be liars.

by lj Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:02 pm

mysterion wrote:Sorry, but on a holiday in Crete, I found a toddler in our hotel corridor in her pjs. She was German so couldn`t communicate.Someone else went to reception to try and find the parents. They eventually turned up from their dinner with a "What is all the fuss about?" looks. So some parents do leave very young children alone in an unlocked room.

Yes, some "parents" do. Some "parents" also leave children in boiling hot cars to be slowly cooked. Some "parents" also beat children until they are quiet. Some "parents" also shake babies until they shut up.

I have never seen any of these actions described as "responsible" parenting though.

On the contrary most of these "parents" are in jail.

Where these pathetic "parents" should be too.

All imo of course.

by Daisy Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:10 pm

lj wrote:
mysterion wrote:Sorry, but on a holiday in Crete, I found a toddler in our hotel corridor in her pjs. She was German so couldn`t communicate.Someone else went to reception to try and find the parents. They eventually turned up from their dinner with a "What is all the fuss about?" looks. So some parents do leave very young children alone in an unlocked room.
Yes, some "parents" do. Some "parents" also leave children in boiling hot cars to be slowly cooked. Some "parents" also beat children until they are quiet. Some "parents" also shake babies until they shut up.

I have never seen any of these actions described as "responsible" parenting though.

On the contrary most of these "parents" are in jail.

Where these pathetic "parents" should be too.

All imo of course.

Touché

by Guest Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:17 pm

lj wrote:
mysterion wrote:Sorry, but on a holiday in Crete, I found a toddler in our hotel corridor in her pjs. She was German so couldn`t communicate.Someone else went to reception to try and find the parents. They eventually turned up from their dinner with a "What is all the fuss about?" looks. So some parents do leave very young children alone in an unlocked room.
Yes, some "parents" do. Some "parents" also leave children in boiling hot cars to be slowly cooked. Some "parents" also beat children until they are quiet. Some "parents" also shake babies until they shut up.

I have never seen any of these actions described as "responsible" parenting though.

On the contrary most of these "parents" are in jail.

Where these pathetic "parents" should be too.

All imo of course.

Also most of them would shrink from benefitting from their offsprings demise

by Smokeandmirrors Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:20 pm

PeterMac wrote:
EXCLUSIVE to mccannfiles.com

By Dr Martin Roberts
04 December 2013

THE 'GET OUT' CLAUSE

Excerpt from Fiona Payne's Rogatory Interview (10.4.08)

1485 - "What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that?"
Reply - "She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh".
1485 - "So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking?"
Reply - "Yeah".
1485 - "Did she say whether she had locked or?"
Reply - "No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked".

The key question paraphrased
What was better for Madeleine if she woke up: That she could get out or, finding the door locked, she could not?

The decision
They left through the balcony door, which they left closed but not locked. (KM witness statement 6.9.2007)
'...a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked'. (GM witness statement 4.5.2007)

The resultant status
Balcony door left unlocked, therefore Madeleine could get out if she woke up.

Question 1.
If the sliding glass door was 'always unlocked', then why should the question as to what was best for Madeleine have arisen that Thursday evening? Supposing 'always' to have applied from the outset of the holiday, the decision had long since been made. Wasn't day six leaving it rather late to openly ponder the option of locking the patio door?

Question 2.
Given the resultant status of the apartment (unlocked patio door so that Madeleine could get out if she wanted), why have you since insisted that there was 'no way' Madeleine could get out of the apartment unaided?

Question 3.
Exactly why could Madeleine McCann not have walked from her bed to the patio door, left unlocked for her benefit?

Question 2 sums up a lot for me, why I don't tend to believe a single word from Team McCann. It is completely frustrating that they have used litigation to silence dissent, when their own words and explanations for things are completely and utterly contradictory. Why on earth have their numerous advisors and lawyers not pointed out this simple fact? They left the door unlocked so Madeleine could escape a fire or look for her parents yet they claim it was impossible for her to leave the apartment by herself? WTF???

Absolutely ludicrous.

by Mirage Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:38 pm

Smokeandmirrors wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
EXCLUSIVE to mccannfiles.com

By Dr Martin Roberts
04 December 2013

THE 'GET OUT' CLAUSE

Excerpt from Fiona Payne's Rogatory Interview (10.4.08)

1485 - "What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that?"
Reply - "She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh".
1485 - "So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking?"
Reply - "Yeah".
1485 - "Did she say whether she had locked or?"
Reply - "No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked".

The key question paraphrased
What was better for Madeleine if she woke up: That she could get out or, finding the door locked, she could not?

The decision
They left through the balcony door, which they left closed but not locked. (KM witness statement 6.9.2007)
'...a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked'. (GM witness statement 4.5.2007)

The resultant status
Balcony door left unlocked, therefore Madeleine could get out if she woke up.

Question 1.
If the sliding glass door was 'always unlocked', then why should the question as to what was best for Madeleine have arisen that Thursday evening? Supposing 'always' to have applied from the outset of the holiday, the decision had long since been made. Wasn't day six leaving it rather late to openly ponder the option of locking the patio door?

Question 2.
Given the resultant status of the apartment (unlocked patio door so that Madeleine could get out if she wanted), why have you since insisted that there was 'no way' Madeleine could get out of the apartment unaided?

Question 3.
Exactly why could Madeleine McCann not have walked from her bed to the patio door, left unlocked for her benefit?
Question 2 sums up a lot for me, why I don't tend to believe a single word from Team McCann. It is completely frustrating that they have used litigation to silence dissent, when their own words and explanations for things are completely and utterly contradictory. Why on earth have their numerous advisors and lawyers not pointed out this simple fact? They left the door unlocked so Madeleine could escape a fire or look for her parents yet they claim it was impossible for her to leave the apartment by herself? WTF???

Absolutely ludicrous.

IMO this level of pathological lying is an unhealthy environment for children to be growing up in.

by Woburn_exile Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:45 pm

Mirage wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:
PeterMac wrote:
EXCLUSIVE to mccannfiles.com

By Dr Martin Roberts
04 December 2013

THE 'GET OUT' CLAUSE

Excerpt from Fiona Payne's Rogatory Interview (10.4.08)

1485 - "What were the circumstances regarding her telling you that?"
Reply - "She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying 'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, 'or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh".
1485 - "So she asked you what your thoughts were regarding locking?"
Reply - "Yeah".
1485 - "Did she say whether she had locked or?"
Reply - "No, that was the point, I think they said they'd left it, well she'd said she'd left it unlocked".

The key question paraphrased
What was better for Madeleine if she woke up: That she could get out or, finding the door locked, she could not?

The decision
They left through the balcony door, which they left closed but not locked. (KM witness statement 6.9.2007)
'...a sliding glass door at the side of the building, which was always unlocked'. (GM witness statement 4.5.2007)

The resultant status
Balcony door left unlocked, therefore Madeleine could get out if she woke up.

Question 1.
If the sliding glass door was 'always unlocked', then why should the question as to what was best for Madeleine have arisen that Thursday evening? Supposing 'always' to have applied from the outset of the holiday, the decision had long since been made. Wasn't day six leaving it rather late to openly ponder the option of locking the patio door?

Question 2.
Given the resultant status of the apartment (unlocked patio door so that Madeleine could get out if she wanted), why have you since insisted that there was 'no way' Madeleine could get out of the apartment unaided?

Question 3.
Exactly why could Madeleine McCann not have walked from her bed to the patio door, left unlocked for her benefit?
Question 2 sums up a lot for me, why I don't tend to believe a single word from Team McCann. It is completely frustrating that they have used litigation to silence dissent, when their own words and explanations for things are completely and utterly contradictory. Why on earth have their numerous advisors and lawyers not pointed out this simple fact? They left the door unlocked so Madeleine could escape a fire or look for her parents yet they claim it was impossible for her to leave the apartment by herself? WTF???

Absolutely ludicrous.
IMO this level of pathological lying is an unhealthy environment for children to be growing up in.

Nail on the head there. What is going to happen when they start to question things (as ALL teenagers will)? Are they going to just continue with their lies? Are they going to tell them the unmitigated truth and get them sworn to secrecy under a promise of some great inheritance when they graduate? Children of evil parents often turn out to be just as evil themselves. IMO (I know this).

by brixham Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:53 pm

mysterion wrote:Sorry, but on a holiday in Crete, I found a toddler in our hotel corridor in her pjs. She was German so couldn`t communicate.Someone else went to reception to try and find the parents. They eventually turned up from their dinner with a "What is all the fuss about?" looks. So some parents do leave very young children alone in an unlocked room.

I too have heard of people leaving their kids in a hotel bedroom whilst they ate but IMO that would be a lot different to leaving them in an unlocked apartment. For one thing a hotel door can not be 'left open' you would always need a key to enter although you don't need a key to get out, also any potential abductors would be seen walking into reception and then back out again with a child - no-one would risk this in my opinion.
Personally I can't believe anyone would leave an apartment unlocked, especially one so accessible from the street and that is not clearly visible from where you are dining.
I have never known anyone leave an apartment door open on holiday, you wouldn't want someone coming in and nicking a few euros or your camera, let alone your children.

by suzyjohnson Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:54 pm

'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or'

It's shocking really that the mother of a three year old child, can even contemplate this. To find them Madeleine would have had to open the patio door, close it behind her to keep the twins safe, carefully go down the steps in the dark, walk past an alleyway, wander around a swimming pool, and then find her parents inside the Tapas restaurant, And for Madeleine to even find them there instead of going somewhere else then her parents must have told her where they were, otherwise how would she know where to look?

And she must have been told this that particular evening, otherwise she would have gone to find them on the Tuesday night or the Wednesday night instead of crying? In my experience if you put an idea like that into a child's head, then they will be back out of bed the minute you go out of the room and following you round to the restaurant.

But nobody saw MM in the vicinity of the Tapas bar that night, and would any parent really tell a three year old, the door's open, come and look for us if you want? I don't think so.

I was thinking that the McCanns had possibly made this up, to mention at the Tapas that the patio door was open, later to be given as a possible way in / out for an abductor, but if that were the case, then why the open window story?