Robert Murat Revisited

XTC wrote:

Many people are like that but it's not a fault. But I think it was this overwillingness that landed him into arguidoship.

XTC wrote:

HelenMeg wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

XTC wrote:

The only thing I can't understand is why Robert Murat never heard the commotion going on near his mother's house as hundreds of people searched all over and were shouting out Madleiene's name?...his door should have been knocked on very early to assist in the search but apparently it never was and Mr Murat didn't join in the search. That's the only curious non-act for me...

The 'only thing', XTC?

You must be aware that Robert Murat deliberately lied in 17 respects about his movements on 1 to 4 May, when first questioned by the PJ on 15 May?

As you know, he only changed his story when trapped by the 'pings' his mobile 'phone made on local mobile 'phone masts.

When re-interviewed on 10 & 11, July he called for a 'break' in his police interview when the mobile 'phone 'pings' were produced. After the break, he came back, completely changed his story, and pleaded that he'd been 'too tired' to tell the truth when first questioned on 15 May.

Of course Muart knew perfectly well what was happening in Praia da Luz on the night of 3 May as you point out.

But how do you explain his 17 lies?

The more I have read on Murat in terms of this case, the more evident it seems that he was firmly planted there to play a role.

Yes these are all very fair points and my last (and for me the most important question) is why he and his mother apparently didn't
hear the shouting of the searchers and the general urgency that would ensue all round the area of the house.

This is only an opinion but he strikes me as a man who is willing to help as it may gain him likeability and a small bit of status or importance.

Many people are like that but it's not a fault. But I think it was this overwillingness that landed him into arguidoship. It is often forgot that he was made an arguido way before the McCann couple. I genuinely think that he was made an arguido firts for various reasons.

1.) As the media was on his case he might speak to the media. and 2.) It was for his own protection in Law. A third more nebulous reason
could have been that Mr Amaral smelt a rat very early on as to why the British police ( Bob Small et al) were too keen to get Jane Tanner
 to state that he was the man she saw carrying a child on the night of the 3rd. According to our new found friend DCI Redwood
it definitely was not him. Add to that the massive contradiction of people who knew him well ( including Mr Smith if I'm correct?) saying he wasn't there on the night of the 3rd against people who allegedly didn't know him from Adam ( the confrontationers) you have to ask why
those who don't know him would say that he was there? I think this was media inspired like the teacher in the case of the young woman
killed by a neighbour. Easy target for the media and a grand diversion form the main players. It was a good move to make him an arguido and obviously if he was then he would have to be thoroughly investigated. Accordingly he was and no evidence of his involvement with Madeleine's disappearance was shown nevermind indicated. Whereason the other side of the arguido coin indications abound.

Having said all that there may be reasons why he was cagey in answering questions. It's not everyday that the police suspect you of having committed a crime,  a serious one at that. His relationship with Malinka may have been explored deeper but I don't see it in the
published files. This appears to be based on the discussion of an internet site or  a way of setting one up. Possibly a porn site I don't know
under the guise of exploring setting up an esate agent site I just don't know so my comment is a guess.

I will end with the little I know about the Socio Economics of PdL in those days and probably these days. There are big players  medium players and small players. The bigger the player the bigger the power to influence. Influence was at work from hour one in this mystery
where an alleged Socialist Prime Minister asked a favour of another alleged Socialist Prime Minister. The second UK alleged Socialist Prime Minister mad e a phone call allegedly to ask if Mr Amaral had been taken off the case. For myself these are the phone calls that count and not Mr Murat's or even the Tapas 9 calls. Murat was a bystander . Not completely innocent of everything but I'm sure Mr Amaral knew that eventually before being ' removed ' like Madeleine from the investigation.

What I think I do know is that the big players are not Socialists of any stripe and that they were - prior to the crash - just as tied in to the
financial movers and shakers in the world as they are still. Even in the small part of the world called the Algarve. If Murat was involved he
wouldn't be told anything. He is a small fish in a big pond. A stagnant murky pond of economics and politics.

Tony Bennett wrote:

XTC wrote:

Many people are like that but it's not a fault. But I think it was this overwillingness that landed him into arguidoship.

Let me tell you very precisely why Robert Murat was made an 'arguido'.

Because the very day before that, Jane Tanner told police officers, from a police van with a two-way mirror, that when she saw Robert Murat walking by, she was ADAMANT that he was the man she had allegedly seen 10 days earlier allegedly carrying a child near Apartment G5A.

Let us note that the day before that, Jane Tanner had had extensive briefings with unnamed men from Control Risks Group and with Det Supt Bob Small of Leicestershire Police.

The very next day, Rachael Oldfield stepped forward to swear blind to the Portuguese Police that she had seen Robert Murat 'hanging around the Ocean Club' late on the evening of 3 May.

Within hours, so did Russell O'Brien.

And then Fiona Payne did the same. 

Within the space of just over two days, ALL FOUR members of the Tapas 7 had placed Murat as the abductor and then later on 3 May 'hanging around the Ocean Club'.

Murat was arrested because of Jane Tanner's identification evidence - and confirmed in the eyes of the PJ by the three other members of the Tapas 7 the day after Murat was arrested.

Let us not have speculation about why Murat was arrested.

Let us have the actual facts please.

Be it also noted that within weeks of the secret meeting on 13 November 2007 at the 'adults only' Eveleighs' Quinta Salsitas Guest House, Burgau, attended by McCann Team members Brian Kennedy & Edward Smethurst, four members of the Murat family and Murat's Lagos-based solicitor, Francisco Pagarete, all four above slowly changed their stories.

They had all been, well...

..mistaken.

How very convenient.

BlackCatBoogie wrote:Quote from XTC

p.s. Are you sure it was MI5 he worked for- not MFI?  

You are too funny XTC

tigger wrote:

BlackCatBoogie wrote:Quote from XTC

p.s. Are you sure it was MI5 he worked for- not MFI?  

You are too funny XTC

Ah, the proto Ikea - I'd love to see a bookcase put together using instructions from CM!    

petunia wrote:The mccanns and Robert have certainly made a fortune from Madeleine.

Tony Bennett wrote:

XTC wrote:

Many people are like that but it's not a fault. But I think it was this overwillingness that landed him into arguidoship.

Let me tell you very precisely why Robert Murat was made an 'arguido'.

Because the very day before that, Jane Tanner told police officers, from a police van with a two-way mirror, that when she saw Robert Murat walking by, she was ADAMANT that he was the man she had allegedly seen 10 days earlier allegedly carrying a child near Apartment G5A.

Let us note that the day before that, Jane Tanner had had extensive briefings with unnamed men from Control Risks Group and with Det Supt Bob Small of Leicestershire Police.

The very next day, Rachael Oldfield stepped forward to swear blind to the Portuguese Police that she had seen Robert Murat 'hanging around the Ocean Club' late on the evening of 3 May.

Within hours, so did Russell O'Brien.

And then Fiona Payne did the same. 

Within the space of just over two days, ALL FOUR members of the Tapas 7 had placed Murat as the abductor and then later on 3 May 'hanging around the Ocean Club'.

Murat was arrested because of Jane Tanner's identification evidence - and confirmed in the eyes of the PJ by the three other members of the Tapas 7 the day after Murat was arrested.

Let us not have speculation about why Murat was arrested.

Let us have the actual facts please.

Be it also noted that within weeks of the secret meeting on 13 November 2007 at the 'adults only' Eveleighs' Quinta Salsitas Guest House, Burgau, attended by McCann Team members Brian Kennedy & Edward Smethurst, four members of the Murat family and Murat's Lagos-based solicitor, Francisco Pagarete, all four above slowly changed their stories.

They had all been, well...

..mistaken.

How very convenient.

aiyoyo wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

XTC wrote:

Many people are like that but it's not a fault. But I think it was this overwillingness that landed him into arguidoship.

Let me tell you very precisely why Robert Murat was made an 'arguido'.

Because the very day before that, Jane Tanner told police officers, from a police van with a two-way mirror, that when she saw Robert Murat walking by, she was ADAMANT that he was the man she had allegedly seen 10 days earlier allegedly carrying a child near Apartment G5A.

Let us note that the day before that, Jane Tanner had had extensive briefings with unnamed men from Control Risks Group and with Det Supt Bob Small of Leicestershire Police.

The very next day, Rachael Oldfield stepped forward to swear blind to the Portuguese Police that she had seen Robert Murat 'hanging around the Ocean Club' late on the evening of 3 May.

Within hours, so did Russell O'Brien.

And then Fiona Payne did the same. 

Within the space of just over two days, ALL FOUR members of the Tapas 7 had placed Murat as the abductor and then later on 3 May 'hanging around the Ocean Club'.

Murat was arrested because of Jane Tanner's identification evidence - and confirmed in the eyes of the PJ by the three other members of the Tapas 7 the day after Murat was arrested.

Let us not have speculation about why Murat was arrested.

Let us have the actual facts please.

Be it also noted that within weeks of the secret meeting on 13 November 2007 at the 'adults only' Eveleighs' Quinta Salsitas Guest House, Burgau, attended by McCann Team members Brian Kennedy & Edward Smethurst, four members of the Murat family and Murat's Lagos-based solicitor, Francisco Pagarete, all four above slowly changed their stories.

They had all been, well...

..mistaken.

How very convenient.

Am inclined to think Brian Kennedy & Lawyer were there to discuss compensation for the Hol group having wrongly or mistakenly identified RM; and he accepted a settlement in lieu of going to court.  That's the reason he brought his lawyer along too, a legal settlement that needs legal witnessing.

Else why did he not sue the threesome who put him through hell?
He stands a very good chance of winning the case if he were to take them to court, it's almost a guaranteed win in his situation.

The group will be greatly inconvenienced not only in money terms but also subject to unwanted media focus in much the same way they dragged him into the mud.  

The question is why didn't he - unless he was compensated handsomely to drop the case against the trio, which in turn begs the question why Brian Kennedy went all way out to help Mccanns & Friends.  What's the vested interest for BK to do that ?  
Once the answer to that question is had the case will crumble like pack of cards.  

Its easy to see the wheeling and dealing and who's holding the case together,  the burning question is why?

XTC wrote:

In your earlier comment on why Robert Murat was made a suspect, you wrote: "Many people are like that but it's not a fault. But I think it was this overwillingness that landed him into arguidoship."

I replied with specific details which showed that he became an arguido essentially on the adamant view of Jane Tanner that Murat was the man she'd allegedly seen carrying a child away from G5A on 3 May. I showed how three other members of the Tapas 7 then joined in to say they'd seen him hanging around the Ocean Club later on 3 May.

I have to say I found your original comments about Murat very opaque, and so I do also with your most recent post. I have a few comments and questions on it please:   


Tony lot of convenient dealings have gone on in this case. These are all post fleeing from Portugal of the Tapas 7 and other players as it were.

REPLY: I do not follow what you are saying. All of these, for instance, are very early on, in May:
* Murat's early morning dash to Portugal on 1 May
* Jane Tanner's identification of him
* Murat's 17 lies when questioned by the PJ on 15 May

The problem with the Burgau meeting (and many other meetings) with private investigators is why they were allowed to continue. Judicial Secrecy should have meant just that on pain of penalty and banning from Portugal.

REPLY: Agreed entirely, the activities of Metodo 3, directed by Brian Kennedy, interfered with the PJ investigation and was at best a series of unhelpful distractions - and in the end, as you may know, the PJ told Metodo 3 to stop bothering them. But surely the 'real problem' about the Burgau meeting was:

Why was the McCanns' co-ordinating solicitor' - high-ranking Freemason Edward Smethurst - talking face-to-face in the cosy villa of Quinta Salsalita with the main suspect in the case: Robert Murat.

PLUS:

* Why was the head of the McCanns' private investigation team, Brian Kennedy there?
* Why was it necessary for Murat's lawyer to be there?
....and above all...
* What did they discuss, wjat did they all plan, and what deals did they do?
  
Imagine the situation in reverse. Various Government mouthpieces (including Mitchell ) would be careering round TV stations telling everyone that
a police investigation in the UK should not be interfered with by foreign PI's, never mind foreign police forces.

This why I dearly try to stick to the Amaral investigation as a compass to all that has happened since because once the witnesses and arguidos got to know certain information from the media or police officers on both sides deliberately leaking confidential information to the media it makes it easier to change your step or even evidence. This for last seven years has been what we are all witnessing. It's had so much of an influence that even Scotland Yard believe it!

REPLY: I am really not sure what you mean here, nor how it relates to the subject of this thread, Robert Murat? 

Meanwhile the team that investigated the disappearance and came up with evidence and a conclusion is dismissed as if they never investigated in the first place. True that the AG shelved it due to insufficient evidence but SY milling round deducting possible suspects

REPLY: Did you mean 'deducing'?

isn't going to add to the existing evidence from the former investigation because their starting point isn't from the fresh early evidence and statements
but from a new starting point somewhere between Oldfield and the alarm being raised. This could be anywhere from 9.30 to Mrs Fenn's 10.30pm. Of course DCI Redwood and his team have to squeeze the Smith family in between somewhere. SY are working backwards and this is why a lot of posters and forumites are skeptical as to whether SY will come up with the goods. I prefer to work forwards from the initial investigation and Robert Murat is in the forward group as I see it.

REPLY: This is like a riddle. Murat is part of the 'forward group'?? What is the 'forward' group? nd who is in it?

Yes he could have done a deal but it's who he was 'dealing' with as you say that should be a cause for concern for our current boys in blue.

REPLY: Again I don't follow. We know EXACTLY who Murat was dealing with on 13 November 2007:
* His lawyer
* Brian Kennedy
* The McCanns' co-ordinating lawyer, Edward Smethurst.

What is missing is WHAT deal was done. Brian Kennedy's excuse for this meeting was that he wanted to offer Murat a 'job' helping to find Madeleine? Yet he was a current, active suspect for having abducted and or killed Madeleine! 

But do you think the interferers will get their knuckles rapped? They didn't in Portugal and it looks like they never will.

On a positive note it's gone very quiet. Perhaps no-one wants to spoil Mr Mitchell's "blooding" as a prospective Parliamentary Candidate in Brighton. He's got no chance in my view.

p.s. Are you sure it was MI5 he worked for- not MFI?

REPLY: You did well with that comment - it's led to a spate of follow-up posts about Mitchell and MFI. Let's back to examining Robert Murat more closely

Despite the BBC being criticised as a Left wing outfit a great amount of employees high and not so high work for MI5 and MI6 I hear. Of course if you asked him he couldn't possibly comment. Self important doesn't even begin to sum him up I'm afraid.

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Is that right about Brian Kennedy (not the uncle) taking holidays in PDL? I may be having a senior moment (not being helped by the bad air conditions at present either) but I don't recall hearing that.

Edward Smethurst I know about but not Brian Kennedy.

Tony Bennett wrote:

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Is that right about Brian Kennedy (not the uncle) taking holidays in PDL? I may be having a senior moment (not being helped by the bad air conditions at present either) but I don't recall hearing that.

Edward Smethurst I know about but not Brian Kennedy.

Edward Smethurst has taken one or other of his three families on holiday to Praia da Luz every year since 1999. He rents an apartment for the week/fortnight.

Brian Kennedy (Latium Group Chairman) is not known to have holidayed in PdL or anywhere in Portugal. He is known however to have a mansion in Spain where he is reputed to spend up to half the year - and it is more than likely that from this Spanish base he had already had contact with Metodo 3 well before 2007.

It seems more than an amazing coincidence that on Wednessday 12 September 2007, just 3 days after they had returned from Portugal, the McCanns were offered legal help from Edward Smethurst, a man who had been holidaying there regularly for the past eight years - and still does. Two days later, Angus McBride drove up, chauffeur-like, from London, to whisk the McCanns to a high-powered meeting in London with Brian Kennedy and 5 top lawyers. It is my belief that Metodo 3 was already working on the case before that meeting. So - Smethurst holidays annually in PdL - and then comes out of the blue to offer ready-made, high-powered, legal and financial assistance.  

Fancy that!

Kennedy met with the Murat family on 13 November 2007 and on the same day brought two of his Metodo 3 men along to Portimao Police Station to meet the PJ. Kennedy and the Metodo men offered him three 'credible and highly promising leads'. None of them led to anything.

Fancy that!

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Is that right about Brian Kennedy (not the uncle) taking holidays in PDL? I may be having a senior moment (not being helped by the bad air conditions at present either) but I don't recall hearing that.

Edward Smethurst I know about but not Brian Kennedy.

aiyoyo wrote:

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Is that right about Brian Kennedy (not the uncle) taking holidays in PDL? I may be having a senior moment (not being helped by the bad air conditions at present either) but I don't recall hearing that.

Edward Smethurst I know about but not Brian Kennedy.

Rich BK owns a golf course there isn't it?  Not far from the resort?

HelenMeg wrote:

aiyoyo wrote:

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Is that right about Brian Kennedy (not the uncle) taking holidays in PDL? I may be having a senior moment (not being helped by the bad air conditions at present either) but I don't recall hearing that.

Edward Smethurst I know about but not Brian Kennedy.

Rich BK owns a golf course there isn't it?  Not far from the resort?

Vigia owns the golf course and is developing the resorts - a company originating in Leicester - and linked to Rothley Park Golf club, whose member hired the same hire car as Gerry used (but a few weeks earlier)..