sleeping children

by juliet 06.11.13 22:12

ALL the children apparently slept like logs on command. I don't think one of the Tapas crew said anything like: So and so were late because they couldn't get the baby to sleep, or anything similar. Yet as any parent knows it can take ages o get a child off to sleep especially in a strange place or when the child is unwell (Oldfield baby and elder Tanner girl).
It does suggest they were given something.

by Guest 06.11.13 23:02

juliet wrote:ALL the children apparently slept like logs on command. I don't think one of the Tapas crew said anything like: So and so were late because they couldn't get the baby to sleep, or anything similar. Yet as any parent knows it can take ages o get a child off to sleep especially in a strange place or when the child is unwell (Oldfield baby and elder Tanner girl).
It does suggest they were given something.

Especially if the child had been awake crying the two previous nights looking for her parents. In a strange bed. In a strange appartment. In a strange country.
How would you cajole an intelligent, articulate almost four year old into going straight to sleep on cue in those circumstances?

by Guest 06.11.13 23:16

I'm sure that woman in America who had octuplets a few years ago would love to know how to get eight children to go to sleep on cue at the same time!

by Sockpuppet 06.11.13 23:33

1. In her book, Kate says that she suspected that the twins had been sedated by the 'abductor', but did not relay this suspicion to the police, nor did she ask for the twins to immediately be taken into medical care, due to an unknown substance in their bloodstream.

2. Fiona Payne drew attention in her statement to Kate routinely checking the twins' breathing after the 'abduction'. They didn't wake up even though Kate was screaming her head off right next to them.

Point 1 leads me to suspect strongly that Kate sedated at least two of her children on 3rd May, because the only way that she could know that the twins were not in danger is if she knew what they had been given.

Point 2 leads me to suspect that Kate was concerned that the dose that had been given was too strong, hence her checking of the twins' breathing. I also wonder whether Fiona Payne was 'on board' with the sedation thing, or whether it was known by no-one but the McCanns. Fiona's statement strongly indicates that the twins had been sedated. If I had been in on it, I would surely not have raised this subject.

by Sockpuppet 06.11.13 23:39

Furthermore, I'd like to make this point:

If Madeleine died before the 3rd May and there was a pre-planned staged abduction, it would be utterly absurd to sedate the twins, when you know full well the police are going to be turning up to investigate a crime scene which the twins are sleeping in. It makes no sense whatsoever to create a situation which is going to raise the suspicion of the police. If you're going to stage an abduction, you need to make sure the whole scene looks 'natural'. Sedated two-year-olds would be a major spanner in the works.

So to me, this is one of several indications that Madeleine died on the evening of the 3rd May.

by boo boos 06.11.13 23:52

Hi Juliet, I started a thread called over sleepy children, which no one replied to, so I'm pleased you've got this being thought about as I agree, its not natural for children to sleep when you want them to!

by Guest 07.11.13 0:06

I've just looked up your earlier topic Boo Boos and I certainly didn't notice it at the time. It's such a busy time right now that inevitably some posts get overlooked.

by juliet 07.11.13 0:23

sockpuppet: it is a very good point. But maybe they had to sedate the twins because they couldn't have them wide awake through all the scene setting etc? I wonder if they were ever questioned by the police? Small as they were they could have had interesting info....but not about that night if they were out for the count.
ps: sorry booboos I missed your thread too.

by Sockpuppet 07.11.13 0:26

juliet wrote:sockpuppet: it is a very good point. But maybe they had to sedate the twins because they couldn't have them wide awake through all the scene setting etc? I wonder if they were ever questioned by the police? Small as they were they could have had interesting info....but not about that night if they were out for the count.
ps: sorry booboos I missed your thread too.

You just take them out of the way. Even if there had been a real abduction I would have immediately taken the twins somewhere else, somewhere safe, because it would be upsetting for them, and they would 'get in the way' of the search and dealing with the police.

Do the police question 2 year olds?

by Guest 07.11.13 0:29

It wouldn't be unheard of - thinking of the almost 3-year-old son of the Wimbledon Common murder victim Rachel Nickell.

by boo boos 07.11.13 0:33

Thank you NFWTD, and Juliet. No probs, I just thought as I said, its not how children are. If it was, parenting would be a breeze!
Seems to me that tanner man was made up or he would have had to been carrying a drugged or dead child. The cold would have woken her imo

by Sockpuppet 07.11.13 0:33

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:It wouldn't be unheard of - thinking of the almost 3-year-old son of the Wimbledon Common murder victim Rachel Nickell.

In that case, what if the police wanted to talk to the twins and it became clear that they wouldn't wake up? What would they think?

And there is a very big difference between 2 year olds and 3 year olds :)

by boo boos 07.11.13 0:46

They'd of been rumbled sockpuppet , can't make a decent defence for one child, let alone two!
Charlotte Pennington was first on the scene and told a newspaper? the twins had already been moved out. More like they hadn't been moved back in. Not that she's a reliable witness, but it made sense they needed to bring them in before Dianne Webster came up. Were they in the Paynes flat? I'm sure Jone 'came down' in someones statement.

by Miss Trunchbull 07.11.13 0:47

Many years ago we had a GP as a neighbour. He and his wife came round for a drink a few times before they moved away.

During one conversation, he openly told us that he medicated his dogs (pain relief or sleeping aid).

When my eyebrows shot up, he loftily said it was not a problem, everything was worked out on body weight, every doctor knew this.

I've often looked back on this insight into the cavalier attitudes of some medics, and wondered about the little McCanns.

by Guest 07.11.13 0:54

I'm sure the police would have left it a day or two before trying to interview the twins, not just woken them up there and then.

I agree that an age difference of 8 months does make a difference to a child's speech and memory capability but you never know what the two of them might have been able to tell the police.

by suzyjohnson 07.11.13 0:58

juliet wrote:ALL the children apparently slept like logs on command. I don't think one of the Tapas crew said anything like: So and so were late because they couldn't get the baby to sleep, or anything similar. Yet as any parent knows it can take ages o get a child off to sleep especially in a strange place or when the child is unwell (Oldfield baby and elder Tanner girl).
It does suggest they were given something.

Yes, you're right juliet. And one other thing I've always thought was odd, is the way they behave as though it were very easy to get young children to go to sleep ..... the chances of three children (never mind the rest of the party) staying asleep on cue for five nights in a row is imo very slim (and, of course, as Mrs Fenn said, at least one was crying for over an hour on the 1st)

I wondered whether the comment supposedly made by MM on the morning of the 3rd, 'why didn't you come when we were crying last night' could have been to prove that there was no sedation on the previous evening

by suzyjohnson 07.11.13 1:05

Sockpuppet wrote:Furthermore, I'd like to make this point:

If Madeleine died before the 3rd May and there was a pre-planned staged abduction, it would be utterly absurd to sedate the twins, when you know full well the police are going to be turning up to investigate a crime scene which the twins are sleeping in. It makes no sense whatsoever to create a situation which is going to raise the suspicion of the police. If you're going to stage an abduction, you need to make sure the whole scene looks 'natural'. Sedated two-year-olds would be a major spanner in the works.

So to me, this is one of several indications that Madeleine died on the evening of the 3rd May.

Very good point Sockpuppet, although I would say that this is technically not 'an indication that MM died on the evening of 3rd May' but rather an indication that she did not die on a previous evening. It is, of course, possible that the parents sedated both MM and the twins so that they would sleep, which could mean that MM did not wake when somebody else took her from the apartment.

by Sockpuppet 07.11.13 1:15

suzyjohnson wrote:Very good point Sockpuppet, although I would say that this is technically not 'an indication that MM died on the evening of 3rd May' but rather an indication that she did not die on a previous evening. It is, of course, possible that the parents sedated both MM and the twins so that they would sleep, which could mean that MM did not wake when somebody else took her from the apartment.

Technically, yes :) I am working on the assumption that she had died by the time that the police arrived, due to the cadaver dog's detection in the apartment.

by Guest 07.11.13 2:08

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I'm sure the police would have left it a day or two before trying to interview the twins, not just woken them up there and then.

I agree that an age difference of 8 months does make a difference to a child's speech and memory capability but you never know what the two of them might have been able to tell the police.

***
NFWTD, do yo remember one of Gerry's blogs, sometime June 2007 I guess, in which he mentioned how amazingly vocal the twins had become? IIRC it was around the time, that they'd gone to sleep in a bed [he said ...] and Sean had developed a taste for seabass ...

by lj 07.11.13 2:40

I think all 3 were routinely medicated, that probably be the cause of whatever happened. (Kevin that just my theory). Best proof for that: Gerry on vodeo when asked if they sedated the children. I've never seen so much or and nos plucking.

Children of 2 and even younger remember a lot, especially when it was emotionally "heavy". My daughter was 18 months when my husband died. While she was not around and we never told her, she completely stopped talking for months. Her first words again were, out of the blue sky I don't remember what we were talking about, "my daddy is dead "harstikke" dead". Harstikke is dutch for "very, very". Thank God a friend of mine, who is a clinical psychologist specialized in early childhood trauma had warned me that even at that age children know/feel what dead is. They know much more than we realize and can remember as early as their first birthday.

I never thought as much as the deep sleeping (my kids could be completely unconscious after a busy day) , but the fact that the parents never wanted them to go to a hospital to check for sedatives, and didn't beg for them to be interviewed by specialized interviewers speaks a thousand words.

by Sockpuppet 07.11.13 2:46

I'm very sorry about your tragedy lj Sad

by Guest 07.11.13 2:49

I may have mentioned here before, that it is my personal opinion, that Sean being carried by Gerry off the plane, was drugged. As the cadaver scent on his airplane t-shirt keeps bothering me too, I have contemplated, that there may have been attempts to prevent him from talking about something ... I "hate" myself for having such thoughts, but they keep coming back :-(

As for childhood memories, I have a photograph of Maman, myself and my baby brother. I must have been just a bit over 2 years then. But I distinctly remember into detail that photo being taken. I've checked with Maman and she was amazed, but confirmed that I remembered correctly.

by justthinking 07.11.13 2:54

sorry about what happened lj

by Guest 07.11.13 2:54

Sockpuppet wrote:I'm very sorry about your tragedy lj

***
So am I, lj. I know how hard it is to lose a very much loved one so young. But I hope that for you too the classic "If it doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger" does count.

by Genbug 07.11.13 3:03

Châtelaine wrote:I may have mentioned here before, that it is my personal opinion, that Sean being carried by Gerry off the plane, was drugged. As the cadaver scent on his airplane t-shirt keeps bothering me too, I have contemplated, that there may have been attempts to prevent him from talking about something ... I "hate" myself for having such thoughts, but they keep coming back :-(

Chatelaine, I fly frequently with my small grandchildren and never once have any of them slept through landing or getting off the plane. Never seen any other children do it either.