SMITHMAN 2 - What can account for the 17 remarkable similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

cassius wrote:
Still can,t see why you say KM  screams in 5a when she comes across MBM.Mrs Fenn would have mentioned it if it had happened in the flat below her.

Who knows?  My mother isn't as old as Mrs Fenn was back then* but she can sleep through anything. (*Yeah, I know she has sadly passed away since.)

It's my opinion cassius, I'm not here to convince anyone else.

More important to me is that Gerry disappeared off the radar for a significant amount of time, and could have been missing at the time of the Smith sighting.

MarcoG wrote:@whatliesbehindthesofa 
 
Of course I think you're right that the alarm had already been raised before the famous 10 pmish moment. What I don't understand from your theory, and it's late is my easy excuse, this scream heard by the waiter, are you suggesting Kate found Madeleine dead after the actual raising of the alarm?

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

MarcoG wrote:@whatliesbehindthesofa 
 
Of course I think you're right that the alarm had already been raised before the famous 10 pmish moment. What I don't understand from your theory, and it's late is my easy excuse, this scream heard by the waiter, are you suggesting Kate found Madeleine dead after the actual raising of the alarm?

It's more that I consider it a possibility rather than a theory that I prefer to the exclusion of all others.  In the absence of further evidence I've accepted not knowing what happened that evening :)

I recognize the possibility that Kate discovered that Madeleine was missing, the alert was raised and searches began, and then she found her dead body behind the sofa, provoking her to scream as described by Salcedas.  As cassius rightly points out, the weakness in this is that Mrs Fenn did not describe a scream.  However, Salcedas did, but we don't know from where he heard the scream.  I only suggest that it may have been in 5A because the dogs detected behind the sofa, which seems an unusual place to temporarily keep the body.  As Amaral said in his documentary, "as a policeman this must be the place of death", although I'm paraphrasing there as I'm writing that purely from memory.  It is entirely correct that we need to explain why Mrs Fenn did not hear the scream.  There is the possibility that the scream originated from another location - but this must have been some distance from 5A.  Or the possibility that I suggested, that like my own mother is wont to do at a drop of a hat, Mrs Fenn may have been asleep.

For me it would explain how someone could take the risk of carrying a dead body through the streets.  It creates urgency and the requirement for a instant decision - hide the body, or be discovered, as a public search had already begun.  As to why the body had to be hidden, there is no evidence to indicate this, except in my opinion that both twins appear to have been sedated, so there is the possibility that Madeleine also was sedated.

All of the above, obviously my opinion only, and I'm not discounting any of the 'death before the 3rd' theories.  They're all possible.

Tony Bennett wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:I'm tuning in late and haven't read the complete thread, but ... what kind of question is that to hold a poll ...?

Why are there 17 similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

without the possibility to vote, that there are no 17 similarities?

I've been doing a lot of questionnaires and derived statistics from it. This poll reminds me of the very old joke we had about a question: "if yes, why not?"

Chatelaine, your point is well made, but, as the poll creator, here is your opportunity.

Here is my original list of similarities:

1. An unaccompanied male
2. Carrying a child and having no push-chair
3. The child was blonde
4. The child was a girl
5. The child was barefoot
6. The child was wearing light-coloured/pink pyjamas
7. She looked about four years old
8. She was being held on the man’s left side
9. She didn’t have a blanket or other covering
10. The men did not look like tourists
11. They were wearing a dark jacket
12. They were wearing light-coloured trousers
13. They were both about 1.75m to 1.8m tall (5’ 9” – 5’ 10”)
14. They were both aged 35-40
15. They were of average build
16. They were spotted within 600 yards of each other
17. In neither case could the man’s face be seen.

I fully accept the challenge and I would be very pleased if you could be as robust as you wish and tell me which ones of the 17 are NOT similar as between Tannerman and Smithman = thanks very much

russiandoll wrote:Here is my original list of similarities:

1. An unaccompanied male -
2. Carrying a child and having no push-chair- 
3. The child was blonde-
4. The child was a girl
5. The child was barefoot  
6. The child was wearing light-coloured/pink pyjamas
7. She looked about four years old  
8. She was being held on the man’s left side
9. She didn’t have a blanket or other covering
10. The men did not look like tourists  
11. They were wearing a dark jacket
12. They were wearing light-coloured trousers
13. They were both about 1.75m to 1.8m tall (5’ 9” – 5’ 10”)
14. They were both aged 35-40
15. They were of average build
16. They were spotted within 600 yards of each other
17. In neither case could the man’s face be seen.
 

I agree that there are many similarities and have voted other reasons, because all of the above are consistent with Gerry McCann realising the implications of the Smith sighting and suddenly needing an alibi for the time the balloon went up, when he was missing.

Jez had been an independent witness but far too early, so poor Jane was called upon to describe her Tannerman of 9.15, who had to look very like Smithman, but not a Gerry double, so there was a tweak or two [hair was one iirc, will check], face not described in detail..,well she wouldn't, would she?

The 2 had to morph into each other, it was the police's job to wonder why an abductor was walking about with a child for 45 minutes.

Jane didn't mention the buttons on the trousers, even though she saw Tannerman side-on. Managed to get the flowers on the pj bottoms in the dark,  though.

So we agree on the similarities Tony but not for why they exist.

sharonl wrote:Not just a dead body but presumably a fresh corpse.

No smell of a cadaver?

No blood stains in her hair, on her skin or on the man?

In her Pyjamas?  What time did she die?  before or after her bath?

No blanket to cover her body and hide any signs of blood or other indications that she was not alive?

A corpse would be quite heavy and awkward to carry wouldn't it?

According to the Smith family, this man was acting perfectly normal and did not really draw attention to himself.  Was he really in a rush?  If he did hurry past the Smith family, how were they able to give such a detailed description of both the man and the child?

sharonl wrote:
A corpse would be quite heavy and awkward to carry wouldn't it?

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

sharonl wrote:Not just a dead body but presumably a fresh corpse.

No smell of a cadaver?

No blood stains in her hair, on her skin or on the man?

In her Pyjamas?  What time did she die?  before or after her bath?

No blanket to cover her body and hide any signs of blood or other indications that she was not alive?

A corpse would be quite heavy and awkward to carry wouldn't it?

According to the Smith family, this man was acting perfectly normal and did not really draw attention to himself.  Was he really in a rush?  If he did hurry past the Smith family, how were they able to give such a detailed description of both the man and the child?

Yes, but none of these issues make the situation impossible.

sharonl wrote:
Ok, but the dogs found blood and cadaver odour in the apartment

If the Smiths could give such a detailed description of what they saw (assuming that it was Gerry & Madeleine) why did they not notice the smell of cadaver and blood stains?

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

sharonl wrote:
Ok, but the dogs found blood and cadaver odour in the apartment

If the Smiths could give such a detailed description of what they saw (assuming that it was Gerry & Madeleine) why did they not notice the smell of cadaver and blood stains?

You could equally ask why the GNR didn't smell cadaver odour or blood in the apartment, which was a closed space where smells linger as opposed to the open space of the street where the Smiths encountered Smithman.

sharonl wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

sharonl wrote:
Ok, but the dogs found blood and cadaver odour in the apartment

If the Smiths could give such a detailed description of what they saw (assuming that it was Gerry & Madeleine) why did they not notice the smell of cadaver and blood stains?

You could equally ask why the GNR didn't smell cadaver odour or blood in the apartment, which was a closed space where smells linger as opposed to the open space of the street where the Smiths encountered Smithman.

The odour would have been less noticeable to humans after a period of time.  The apartment had also been cleaned to the extent that even the curtains had been washed.  I cannot see how all this cleaning took place between 5.30pm and 8.00pm ( a maximum of 2.5 hrs) that night, it just doesn't seem possible, especially when there were other things to tend to.  If Madeleine had died and been removed earlier in the week, then the odour would have been even less noticeable.  Even Michael Wright admitted that there was a dreadful smell from the hire car. 

Goncalo Amaral claimed that the cadaver had been frozen. So where exactly was Gerry heading with Madeleine?  Surely the Smith family would have noticed if she had already been frozen?

Sorry to be negative about this but it doesn't make sense

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

sharonl wrote:
A corpse would be quite heavy and awkward to carry wouldn't it?

Surely it would be roughly the same weight as a live child.

As for awkward carrying, Martin Smith stated  "that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual."

Cristobell wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

sharonl wrote:
A corpse would be quite heavy and awkward to carry wouldn't it?

Surely it would be roughly the same weight as a live child.

As for awkward carrying, Martin Smith stated  "that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual."

Martin Smith did not say that WLBTS - those words are Kate's.  She changed what he said just as she changed the position in which the man was carrying the child to connect it to the cackhanded way in which Jane Tanner's 'abductor' was carrying the child.

sharonl wrote:Not just a dead body but presumably a fresh corpse.

No smell of a cadaver?

No blood stains in her hair, on her skin or on the man?

In her Pyjamas?  What time did she die?  before or after her bath?

No blanket to cover her body and hide any signs of blood or other indications that she was not alive?

A corpse would be quite heavy and awkward to carry wouldn't it?

According to the Smith family, this man was acting perfectly normal and did not really draw attention to himself.  Was he really in a rush?  If he did hurry past the Smith family, how were they able to give such a detailed description of both the man and the child?

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

Cristobell wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

sharonl wrote:
A corpse would be quite heavy and awkward to carry wouldn't it?

Surely it would be roughly the same weight as a live child.

As for awkward carrying, Martin Smith stated  "that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual."

Martin Smith did not say that WLBTS - those words are Kate's.  She changed what he said just as she changed the position in which the man was carrying the child to connect it to the cackhanded way in which Jane Tanner's 'abductor' was carrying the child.

I beg to differ Cristobell :)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

sharonl wrote:
The odour would have been less noticeable to humans after a period of time.  The apartment had also been cleaned to the extent that even the curtains had been washed.  I cannot see how all this cleaning took place between 5.30pm and 8.00pm ( a maximum of 2.5 hrs) that night, it just doesn't seem possible, especially when there were other things to tend to.  If Madeleine had died and been removed earlier in the week, then the odour would have been even less noticeable.  Even Michael Wright admitted that there was a dreadful smell from the hire car. 

Goncalo Amaral claimed that the cadaver had been frozen. So where exactly was Gerry heading with Madeleine?  Surely the Smith family would have noticed if she had already been frozen?

Sorry to be negative about this but it doesn't make sense

Cristobell wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

Cristobell wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

sharonl wrote:
A corpse would be quite heavy and awkward to carry wouldn't it?

Surely it would be roughly the same weight as a live child.

As for awkward carrying, Martin Smith stated  "that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual."

Martin Smith did not say that WLBTS - those words are Kate's.  She changed what he said just as she changed the position in which the man was carrying the child to connect it to the cackhanded way in which Jane Tanner's 'abductor' was carrying the child.

I beg to differ Cristobell :)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith assumed the pair were father and daughter - therefore not being used to carrying a child is a contradiction.  I will stand corrected if you can pinpoint that exact sentence in his statement.

Tony Bennett wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

Châtelaine wrote:I'm tuning in late and haven't read the complete thread, but ... what kind of question is that to hold a poll ...?

Why are there 17 similarities between Tannerman and Smithman?

without the possibility to vote, that there are no 17 similarities?

I've been doing a lot of questionnaires and derived statistics from it. This poll reminds me of the very old joke we had about a question: "if yes, why not?"

Chatelaine, your point is well made, but, as the poll creator, here is your opportunity.

Here is my original list of similarities:

1. An unaccompanied male
2. Carrying a child and having no push-chair
3. The child was blonde
4. The child was a girl
5. The child was barefoot
6. The child was wearing light-coloured/pink pyjamas
7. She looked about four years old
8. She was being held on the man’s left side
9. She didn’t have a blanket or other covering
10. The men did not look like tourists
11. They were wearing a dark jacket
12. They were wearing light-coloured trousers
13. They were both about 1.75m to 1.8m tall (5’ 9” – 5’ 10”)
14. They were both aged 35-40
15. They were of average build
16. They were spotted within 600 yards of each other
17. In neither case could the man’s face be seen.

I fully accept the challenge and I would be very pleased if you could be as robust as you wish and tell me which ones of the 17 are NOT similar as between Tannerman and Smithman = thanks very much

Chatelaine, I hope you might find time today to answer my point above in bold.

I took great care, looking at all the Jane Tanner statements and then those of the three Smiths, to list all the 17 similarities, and if you think even one of them is incorrect, I would like to know from you, and have the opportunity then of responding to you. Many thanks

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

Cristobell wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

Cristobell wrote:

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:

sharonl wrote:
A corpse would be quite heavy and awkward to carry wouldn't it?

Surely it would be roughly the same weight as a live child.

As for awkward carrying, Martin Smith stated  "that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual."

Martin Smith did not say that WLBTS - those words are Kate's.  She changed what he said just as she changed the position in which the man was carrying the child to connect it to the cackhanded way in which Jane Tanner's 'abductor' was carrying the child.

I beg to differ Cristobell :)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith assumed the pair were father and daughter - therefore not being used to carrying a child is a contradiction.  I will stand corrected if you can pinpoint that exact sentence in his statement.

It's in the link, I directly quoted from there.

— Urged, he states that the individual did not appear to be a tourist. He cannot explain this further. It was simply his perception given the individual's clothing. He states that the individual carried the child in his arms, with her head laying on the individual's left shoulder, that being to the right of the deponent. He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual.

russiandoll wrote:Tony I told you on another thread where you addressed my explanation that I neither named MADELEINE in it, I did not state when she died nor did I say Gerry deposited her somewhere in PdL before returning to the tapas bar.

I am glad that you are no longer going to comment on what I said, that is twice now that you have added things to my post claiming these came from me.  They are your interpretations of what I said.

Tony Bennett wrote:

russiandoll wrote:Tony I told you on another thread where you addressed my explanation that I neither named MADELEINE in it, I did not state when she died nor did I say Gerry deposited her somewhere in PdL before returning to the tapas bar.

I am glad that you are no longer going to comment on what I said, that is twice now that you have added things to my post claiming these came from me.  They are your interpretations of what I said.

I am baffled.

These are your exact words:

QUOTE RUSSIANDOLL

"I agree that there are many similarities [between Tannerman and Smithman] because all of the above are consistent with Gerry McCann realising the implications of the Smith sighting and suddenly needing an alibi for the time the balloon went up, when he was missing...poor Jane was called upon to describe her Tannerman of 9.15, who had to look very like Smithman, but not a Gerry double, so there was a tweak or two [hair was one iirc, will check], face not described in detail...well she wouldn't, would she?

END QUOTE

You are quite clear here in saying that Gerry told Jane to describe someone 'who had to look very like Smithman, but not a Gerry double, so there was a tweak or two...'

Just so I don't misunderstand you, you say that Gerry needed an alibi - because he was seen by the Smiths? Am I right so far?

If not, please explain, I am trying to make sense of something that is not plain.  

So, you say that Gerry McCann was seen by the Smiths at 10.00pm, and therefore needed an alibi 'for the time the balloon went up' (I presume you mean 10.00pm?).

So he tells Jane something like: "Tell them you saw me at 9.15pm, make your description sound like me, but tweak it a bit, so it's a bit different from me". Is that right?

And according to your statement above, Gerry was not carrying Madeleine at 10.00pm, but another child? Have I got that right?

If I haven't got that right, please explain your hypothesis for 'Smithman' in plain terms, so we cn all understand it, I'd appreciate it.

Plus, if you say that Smithman was Gerry McCann,

how do you explain the witness evidence that Gerry McCann was indeed in the Ocean Club/Tapas bar area during the 9.30pm - 10.30pm time zone?

Many thanks