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Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

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Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Kepharel on 02.07.13 16:14

Caveat:
 
For all you skim readers, fundamentalist preachers of guilt, and reactionaries of all shades, may I say, once again that I BELIEVE in the McCann’s guilt over the disappearance of their eldest daughter, that she died either as a direct result of something they had done to her or,  at the very least covering up in her death caused as a result of their neglect.
 
OK, having got that out of the way, one quick diversion on why I am writing this. I never achieved complete success in my career, despite achieving all that was required of me academically in my career path, neither was it because of any lack of ability in the jobs I held.  Rather, because I could never resist telling my superiors face to face that I disagreed with their decisions, often together with a dissertation on their character flaws and biases.  I was young then and not wise in the ways of the world, and that’s my only defence.
 
Now in my dotage, this perversity which rejects popular opinion by default still burns bright.  I like lost causes.  Fuel to this fire has been added over recent posts with which I have been involved, so despite my initial decision to withdraw from forum discussions I am going to do the opposite and put forward the case that the McCanns just might be INNOCENT (nice provocative word that) of involvement in the disappearance of their daughter. Together with any other slam dunk certainties that takes my fancy from time to time in the future J
 
Does being obnoxious make you guilty?
 
To call the McCanns psychopaths would undoubtedly draw a warm round of applause throughout this forum, but for the wrong reasons in my opinion. It is to misunderstand what psychopaths are; having said that,  I absolutely do agree that the McCanns are psychopaths.
 
This from the Forbes website:
 
British journalist Jon Ronson immersed himself in the world of mental health diagnosis and criminal profiling to understand what makes some people psychopaths 
 
There are absolutes in psychopathy and the main absolute is a literal absence of empathy. It’s just not there. In higher-scoring psychopaths, what grows in the vacant field where that empathy should be is a joy in manipulating people, a lack of remorse, a lack of guilt. If you've got a little bit of empathy, you’re kind of not a psychopath.
 
I’m sure there will be nods of agreement at that.
 
And elsewhere
 
One out of every 10 Wall Street employees is a clinical psychopath, the CFA Institute (an investment and financial analysis organization) reports in the latest issue of CFA Magazine. That makes psychopathy 10 times more prevalent among New York’s financial elite than among us plebeians, for which the accepted statistic is a more palatable one in 100.
 
So though not an endearing trait, being a psychopath, at least in business, is an essential requirement.  I am not saying though, that Psychopaths are harmless, and they are well represented in prison populations, but there are psychopaths and there are, well, psychopaths.  Again from the Forbes article:
 
It is a spectrum, but there’s a cut-off point. If you’re going by the Hare checklist [the standard inventory used in law enforcement, devised by leading researcher Robert Hare], where the top score is 40, the average would score a 4 or 5. Somebody you have to be wary of would be in early 20s and a really hard core damaged person, a really dangerous psychopath, would score around a 30. In law the cut-off is 29.
 
So how about the possibility of sexual perversion, say within the Tapas 9? Well, a proven sexual pervert may not be at the top of everyone’s Christmas list, and social class, wealth etc. is no barrier to this particular disorder. E.g. Max Mosely and his Nazi whipping orgies, nor is literary genius as from a selection of James Joyces letters published in 1975 which are far too graphic for a forum such as this but involve his exultation at being able to induce episodes of excessive flatulence from his wife during sexual intercourse.  Though the list goes on, I hope you get the point by now.
 
And what is the point in all of this?  As the title of the post suggests, having the nature and symptoms of being a psychopath and a sexual pervert, as some of the Tapas 9 are almost certain to be, are not in themselves proof that a crime was committed on Madeleine McCann resulting in her death.  When I was young, telling the bad guy was easy.  He wore a black hat and lit his cigarillo by swiping a match on his 7 day old stubble.  To view guilt requires proof and no amount of finger pointing at the shortcomings of the sorry bunch that the 9 are, due to compulsive lying, manipulation through evidence tampering and all the rest of it are going to prove the case.
 
Because we want something to be doesn't necessarily make it so.
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by plebgate on 02.07.13 16:44

@Kepharel wrote:Caveat:
 
For all you skim readers, fundamentalist preachers of guilt, and reactionaries of all shades, may I say, once again that I BELIEVE in the McCann’s guilt over the disappearance of their eldest daughter, that she died either as a direct result of something they had done to her or,  at the very least covering up in her death caused as a result of their neglect.
 
OK, having got that out of the way, one quick diversion on why I am writing this. I never achieved complete success in my career, despite achieving all that was required of me academically in my career path, neither was it because of any lack of ability in the jobs I held.  Rather, because I could never resist telling my superiors face to face that I disagreed with their decisions, often together with a dissertation on their character flaws and biases.  I was young then and not wise in the ways of the world, and that’s my only defence.
 
Now in my dotage, this perversity which rejects popular opinion by default still burns bright.  I like lost causes.  Fuel to this fire has been added over recent posts with which I have been involved, so despite my initial decision to withdraw from forum discussions I am going to do the opposite and put forward the case that the McCanns just might be INNOCENT (nice provocative word that) of involvement in the disappearance of their daughter. Together with any other slam dunk certainties that takes my fancy from time to time in the future J
 
Does being obnoxious make you guilty?
 
To call the McCanns psychopaths would undoubtedly draw a warm round of applause throughout this forum, but for the wrong reasons in my opinion. It is to misunderstand what psychopaths are; having said that,  I absolutely do agree that the McCanns are psychopaths.
 
This from the Forbes website:
 
British journalist Jon Ronson immersed himself in the world of mental health diagnosis and criminal profiling to understand what makes some people psychopaths 
 
There are absolutes in psychopathy and the main absolute is a literal absence of empathy. It’s just not there. In higher-scoring psychopaths, what grows in the vacant field where that empathy should be is a joy in manipulating people, a lack of remorse, a lack of guilt. If you've got a little bit of empathy, you’re kind of not a psychopath.
 
I’m sure there will be nods of agreement at that.
 
And elsewhere
 
One out of every 10 Wall Street employees is a clinical psychopath, the CFA Institute (an investment and financial analysis organization) reports in the latest issue of CFA Magazine. That makes psychopathy 10 times more prevalent among New York’s financial elite than among us plebeians, for which the accepted statistic is a more palatable one in 100.
 
So though not an endearing trait, being a psychopath, at least in business, is an essential requirement.  I am not saying though, that Psychopaths are harmless, and they are well represented in prison populations, but there are psychopaths and there are, well, psychopaths.  Again from the Forbes article:
 
It is a spectrum, but there’s a cut-off point. If you’re going by the Hare checklist [the standard inventory used in law enforcement, devised by leading researcher Robert Hare], where the top score is 40, the average would score a 4 or 5. Somebody you have to be wary of would be in early 20s and a really hard core damaged person, a really dangerous psychopath, would score around a 30. In law the cut-off is 29.
 
So how about the possibility of sexual perversion, say within the Tapas 9? Well, a proven sexual pervert may not be at the top of everyone’s Christmas list, and social class, wealth etc. is no barrier to this particular disorder. E.g. Max Mosely and his Nazi whipping orgies, nor is literary genius as from a selection of James Joyces letters published in 1975 which are far too graphic for a forum such as this but involve his exultation at being able to induce episodes of excessive flatulence from his wife during sexual intercourse.  Though the list goes on, I hope you get the point by now.
 
And what is the point in all of this?  As the title of the post suggests, having the nature and symptoms of being a psychopath and a sexual pervert, as some of the Tapas 9 are almost certain to be, are not in themselves proof that a crime was committed on Madeleine McCann resulting in her death.  When I was young, telling the bad guy was easy.  He wore a black hat and lit his cigarillo by swiping a match on his 7 day old stubble.  To view guilt requires proof and no amount of finger pointing at the shortcomings of the sorry bunch that the 9 are, due to compulsive lying, manipulation through evidence tampering and all the rest of it are going to prove the case.
 
Because we want something to be doesn't necessarily make it so.



Who says that posters on this site want the points you made" to be so".

People have merely pointed out what has been put into the public domain and tried to make sense of it all and maybe some info. contained in the police files could make some people come to the conclusion that it is possible that certain behaviour could point to those traits.

Nobody here, that I can remember, has said that this is definitely the case, so I cannot see how your assertion that people want it to be so, is right.






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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Kepharel on 02.07.13 17:08

Hi Plebgate,

My argument was based on no-one wanting the points I have made to be so, that's why I made them.  I will hold up my hands concerning your second point that no-one on here has ever said that the McCanns are guilty, if that is what you meant.  What I was trying to say is that, having read the forums for some time now, many on here believe the McCanns are hiding something, and from this their guilt is implicit.  My argument is that, by accepting this implication, some might buy into the theory based on the hyperbole of antagonism against the personal shortcomings of the couple that is so often expressed.
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Cristobell on 02.07.13 17:12

Brilliant Kepheral, obviously your forte was writing!

I'm rather more optimistic than yourself. In a recent link to an old Mail article purportedly to support the McCanns, the two policemen who were the first to attend 5A that night, knew straight away that it was not an abduction.  These are not 'real police' according to the mccanns, but on par with traffic cops, Kate refers to them condescendingly in her book as 'Tweedledum' and 'Tweedledee'.  Now if these two knew, how can it get past 37 of Scotland Yard's finest, who will presumably interview them?

On top of that, this case if far too complex, too many involved who might blow the whistle and other countries involved. The government have thrown more money at it, not wound it up.  Scotland Yard have the eyes of the world on them. But even leaving all of that to one side, who can they pin it on?  Had it been either of the dead paedophiles, the case would have been closed long ago. Had it been a gang of paedophiles or human traffickers, one would think there would be more urgency to the case. Were it the 'living as a Princess' scenario, the recent Scotland Yard announcements would have put her life at risk.  Its also hard to believe the world's most recognisable child has not found this past 6 years.  The idea of a child locked away in a cellar all those years is too chilling for me to contemplate, the mere thought of it would surely drive any genuine parent demented with grief, not doing magazine spreads.  

But I digress.  There are reasons to be cheerful.  However, I will keep my hat on standby, ready to eat it should the need arise. big grin

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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by guest. on 02.07.13 17:33

Is what you're saying is that yes they are likely to score high on the pschopathic scale and yes they are lying and hiding something but it could posssibly not be what we all presume it is and you just wanted to throw that into the mix although your personal opinion is they are guilty

That had crossed my mind at times in the early days, not really now, although it wouldn't completely surprise me if there was something totally bizarre behind it all

Does that make sense? It's been a long day today

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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by guest. on 02.07.13 17:47

And also that you feel on the forum only certain view points are accepted and you decided to stop posting because of it but you've had a change of heart and want to throw your opinions into the mix

I personally welcome all opinions

The ones I don't agree with I'll sometimes debate or sometimes ignore depending but I totally believe everybody is entitled to their opinion and if I don't like it like it that's my problem not theirs

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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by plebgate on 02.07.13 20:10

Kepheral, are you saying that you feel there is excessive antagonism against Mr. & Mrs. on this forum because members feel they are hiding something?

With a little girl gone missing and quesitons not being answered, inconsistencies in statements, etc., trying to jail a pensioner, trying to put fear into a cop who wanted and asked the truth, no I do not feel comments from posters here show excessive antagonism towards them.

I think comments (for the most part) show intelligent thought and logic about what they have read and seen.

Sally66 asked this question of you - "Is what you're saying is that yes they are likely to score high on the pschopathic scale and yes they are lying and hiding something but it could posssibly not be what we all presume it is and you just wanted to throw that into the mix although your personal opinion is they are guilty "

I have seen this question asked before over the years, and my view is that if somebody gives inconsistent answers to police, refuse to answer police questions etc. etc. then of course people will presume they are hiding and guilty of something.

The cops have said what they believe they are guilty of, is it any wonder that many posters here might come to the same conclusion reading the available info. so without being told exactly what hard evidence there is to show that the cops might be wrong, then I think it is they who have possibly antagonised people by asking for help and asking for money and then when an alternative theory is put forward resorting to the courts to stop freedom of speech, banning books etc.

if after all that, that is not what your question was about, then sorry can't come up with anything else.smilie  My head hurts most times re. this case.















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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Kepharel on 02.07.13 20:53

Hya Plebgate
 
I’ll try to respond to your points, so in no particular order:
 


  1. I agree that comments on this Forum are well considered by the hard core of regular contributors, and because they are regular contributors and there are relatively few of them in comparison with the total membership I think we can call them ‘opinion formers’ and to that extent guide the ethos by which the Forum functions.
  2. This leads me on to your second point about the tragedy by which this Forum defines itself.  There is a little girl gone missing and the Tapas 9 are proven liars, in addition to which they have tried to manipulate evidence, and even possibly frame individuals to get them off the hook of their dilemma.  What I am suggesting is that in their bids for self preservation at all costs, rather than exonerate themselves by their lies and innuendo they have tightened the noose of guilt ever tighter around their necks.  This, however, while it might be proof of their complete stupidity, and a shining endorsement of their deeply flawed characters, it is not proof of their guilt.
  3. I don’t think I have used the phrase ‘excessive antagonism’ , but would make the point that the Forum ethos that places them in the firing line of guilt in the death of Madeleine can easily be misinterpreted by certain visitors and fringe members (lurkers etc if you will) as proof absolute of guilt when that just might not be the case. While you may call their characters into disrepute, if there is one scintilla of doubt then the guilty verdict will have to wait. Though obviously this is a personal opinion and not a fact.  Hence my original premise.
  4. Sally 66’s question is not one I can answer having no expertise at all in this field…I’m an accountant by profession J J J.  If I had to guess, I would have thought a score of either of the McCanns or Tapas putting them in a ‘dangerous’ category would have manifested itself much earlier in their lives and proved a barrier to their professional success and not the boon it has been…but hey! What do I know.
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Guest on 02.07.13 22:17

@Kepharel wrote:[...] If I had to guess, I would have thought a score of either of the McCanns or Tapas putting them in a ‘dangerous’ category would have manifested itself much earlier in their lives and proved a barrier to their professional success and not the boon it has been…but hey! What do I know.
***
That suddenly reminded me again of a Mrs. KM [or KH, whichever she/you prefer], a doctor who specialised as gynaecologist and then as anesthetist and ended up being a part-time GP ...
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by plebgate on 03.07.13 0:05

@Kepharel wrote:Hya Plebgate
 
I’ll try to respond to your points, so in no particular order:
 


  1. I agree that comments on this Forum are well considered by the hard core of regular contributors, and because they are regular contributors and there are relatively few of them in comparison with the total membership I think we can call them ‘opinion formers’ and to that extent guide the ethos by which the Forum functions.
  2. This leads me on to your second point about the tragedy by which this Forum defines itself.  There is a little girl gone missing and the Tapas 9 are proven liars, in addition to which they have tried to manipulate evidence, and even possibly frame individuals to get them off the hook of their dilemma.  What I am suggesting is that in their bids for self preservation at all costs, rather than exonerate themselves by their lies and innuendo they have tightened the noose of guilt ever tighter around their necks.  This, however, while it might be proof of their complete stupidity, and a shining endorsement of their deeply flawed characters, it is not proof of their guilt.
  3. I don’t think I have used the phrase ‘excessive antagonism’ , but would make the point that the Forum ethos that places them in the firing line of guilt in the death of Madeleine can easily be misinterpreted by certain visitors and fringe members (lurkers etc if you will) as proof absolute of guilt when that just might not be the case. While you may call their characters into disrepute, if there is one scintilla of doubt then the guilty verdict will have to wait. Though obviously this is a personal opinion and not a fact.  Hence my original premise.
  4. Sally 66’s question is not one I can answer having no expertise at all in this field…I’m an accountant by profession J J J.  If I had to guess, I would have thought a score of either of the McCanns or Tapas putting them in a ‘dangerous’ category would have manifested itself much earlier in their lives and proved a barrier to their professional success and not the boon it has been…but hey! What do I know.



Hi again Kepharel

Just to point out that Mr. Amaral the lead cop at the time of the investigation, suggested a possible accident. I do not think I have ever read that Mr. A., TB, or most "opinion formers" as you call them, having said differently.

As for lurkers being possibly influenced by what is being said on this forum, it is no different to what is in the police files imo, therefore it would not be forum members possibly influencing readers, but the facts in the police files.

if they want the police to think differently it is in their hands to contact the Portugese and answer all questions and do a reconstruction which might possibly bring to light new evidence. I know if I were in their position, I would be banging down the doors, but they appear not have done that.

I do not think anybody here can be accused of influencing lurkers, they are free to read and make their own minds up after having read the files available.

I am not sure I like the sentence that we have called their characters into disrepute either. The posters on this forum are not the ones with inconsistent statements etc. If anybody has done that, imo it would be themselves.

They asked for help, people around the world are asking and reading, hopefully with the aim of finding out what happened to Maddie.








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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by suzyjohnson on 03.07.13 10:14

No, being obnoxious does not make you guilty. 

With regard to this case what I want is for MM to be found safely and / or for the person(s) responsible to be brought to justice  I don't want the McCanns to be guilty any more than I want anyone else to be guilty. 

It's just that all the evidence points that way.

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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by tiny on 03.07.13 10:48

Does being obnoxious make you guilty

in Gerry mccanns case, yes,horrid little man
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by lj on 03.07.13 15:07

When parents tried to get rid of one of their children, it does not make them guilty of murder. It does however give one piece of the puzzle when it comes to the question: were they involved in her disappearance?

It does not by itself prove guilt when parents refuse to answer questions in the investigation in the disappearance of their daughter. It does throw a suspicion on them.

When parents lie during the investigation into the disappearance of their child, it does not make them guilty, but surely it throws a suspicion on them.

When parents are psychopaths it does not make them guilty, but it fits the picture of parents who are guilty in the disappearance of their child.

Now is obnoxious the same as psychopath? Since you did such extensive research you can answer the question yourself, can't you?

I don't have the numbers, but I can assure you that working in the medical field does not prove you are NOT a psychopath. On the contrary, you will find a high number of them, especially under those who wanna climb the ladder.

As Gerry would say: you have to look at the bigger picture.


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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by aquila on 03.07.13 20:23

Good post Kepharel, nowhere in your post do you speak of  the McCanns as obnoxious.

Confusion is good. You could get a job writing political speeches or helping out Blacksmith.roses
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by wjk on 03.07.13 21:18

@lj wrote:When parents tried to get rid of one of their children, it does not make them guilty of murder. It does however give one piece of the puzzle when it comes to the question: were they involved in her disappearance?

It does not by itself prove guilt when parents refuse to answer questions in the investigation in the disappearance of their daughter. It does throw a suspicion on them.

When parents lie during the investigation into the disappearance of their child, it does not make them guilty, but surely it throws a suspicion on them.

When parents are psychopaths it does not make them guilty, but it fits the picture of parents who are guilty in the disappearance of their child.

Now is obnoxious the same as psychopath? Since you did such extensive research you can answer the question yourself, can't you?

I don't have the numbers, but I can assure you that working in the medical field does not prove you are NOT a psychopath. On the contrary, you will find a high number of them, especially under those who wanna climb the ladder.

As Gerry would say: you have to look at the bigger picture.

------------------------------

Great post, lj thumbup 

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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Guest on 05.07.13 10:01

Hi Kepharel,

In your post heading, If you could use another word instead of obnoxious but which means the same, which word would you chose?
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by PeterMac on 05.07.13 11:23

unpleasant, disagreeable, nasty, distasteful, offensive, objectionable, unsavory, unpalatable, off-putting, awful, terrible, dreadful, frightful, revolting, repulsive, repellent, repugnant, disgusting, odious, vile, foul, abhorrent, loathsome, nauseating, sickening, hateful, insufferable, intolerable, detestable, abominable, despicable, contemptible, horrible, horrid, ghastly, gross, putrid, yucky, godawful, beastly, skanky; noisome. annoying, tiresome, irritating; overbearing, bumptious; unpleasant, nasty; informal bratty, pesky.


That should cover it !

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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Guest on 05.07.13 11:45

spit coffee 

You do have a way with words ... sarcastic 
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Guest on 05.07.13 11:51

@PeterMac wrote:
unpleasant, disagreeable, nasty, distasteful, offensive, objectionable, unsavory, unpalatable, off-putting, awful, terrible, dreadful, frightful, revolting, repulsive, repellent, repugnant, disgusting, odious, vile, foul, abhorrent, loathsome, nauseating, sickening, hateful, insufferable, intolerable, detestable, abominable, despicable, contemptible, horrible, horrid, ghastly, gross, putrid, yucky, godawful, beastly, skanky; noisome.  annoying, tiresome, irritating; overbearing, bumptious; unpleasant, nasty; informal bratty, pesky.


That should cover it !

Thanks PeterMack, a lot to chose from.



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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by aquila on 05.07.13 12:03

@Kepharel wrote:Caveat:
 
For all you skim readers, fundamentalist preachers of guilt, and reactionaries of all shades, may I say, once again that I BELIEVE in the McCann’s guilt over the disappearance of their eldest daughter, that she died either as a direct result of something they had done to her or,  at the very least covering up in her death caused as a result of their neglect.
 
OK, having got that out of the way, one quick diversion on why I am writing this. I never achieved complete success in my career, despite achieving all that was required of me academically in my career path, neither was it because of any lack of ability in the jobs I held.  Rather, because I could never resist telling my superiors face to face that I disagreed with their decisions, often together with a dissertation on their character flaws and biases.  I was young then and not wise in the ways of the world, and that’s my only defence.
 
Now in my dotage, this perversity which rejects popular opinion by default still burns bright.  I like lost causes.  Fuel to this fire has been added over recent posts with which I have been involved, so despite my initial decision to withdraw from forum discussions I am going to do the opposite and put forward the case that the McCanns just might be INNOCENT (nice provocative word that) of involvement in the disappearance of their daughter. Together with any other slam dunk certainties that takes my fancy from time to time in the future J
 
Does being obnoxious make you guilty?
 
To call the McCanns psychopaths would undoubtedly draw a warm round of applause throughout this forum, but for the wrong reasons in my opinion. It is to misunderstand what psychopaths are; having said that,  I absolutely do agree that the McCanns are psychopaths.
 
This from the Forbes website:
 
British journalist Jon Ronson immersed himself in the world of mental health diagnosis and criminal profiling to understand what makes some people psychopaths 
 
There are absolutes in psychopathy and the main absolute is a literal absence of empathy. It’s just not there. In higher-scoring psychopaths, what grows in the vacant field where that empathy should be is a joy in manipulating people, a lack of remorse, a lack of guilt. If you've got a little bit of empathy, you’re kind of not a psychopath.
 
I’m sure there will be nods of agreement at that.
 
And elsewhere
 
One out of every 10 Wall Street employees is a clinical psychopath, the CFA Institute (an investment and financial analysis organization) reports in the latest issue of CFA Magazine. That makes psychopathy 10 times more prevalent among New York’s financial elite than among us plebeians, for which the accepted statistic is a more palatable one in 100.
 
So though not an endearing trait, being a psychopath, at least in business, is an essential requirement.  I am not saying though, that Psychopaths are harmless, and they are well represented in prison populations, but there are psychopaths and there are, well, psychopaths.  Again from the Forbes article:
 
It is a spectrum, but there’s a cut-off point. If you’re going by the Hare checklist [the standard inventory used in law enforcement, devised by leading researcher Robert Hare], where the top score is 40, the average would score a 4 or 5. Somebody you have to be wary of would be in early 20s and a really hard core damaged person, a really dangerous psychopath, would score around a 30. In law the cut-off is 29.
 
So how about the possibility of sexual perversion, say within the Tapas 9? Well, a proven sexual pervert may not be at the top of everyone’s Christmas list, and social class, wealth etc. is no barrier to this particular disorder. E.g. Max Mosely and his Nazi whipping orgies, nor is literary genius as from a selection of James Joyces letters published in 1975 which are far too graphic for a forum such as this but involve his exultation at being able to induce episodes of excessive flatulence from his wife during sexual intercourse.  Though the list goes on, I hope you get the point by now.
 
And what is the point in all of this?  As the title of the post suggests, having the nature and symptoms of being a psychopath and a sexual pervert, as some of the Tapas 9 are almost certain to be, are not in themselves proof that a crime was committed on Madeleine McCann resulting in her death.  When I was young, telling the bad guy was easy.  He wore a black hat and lit his cigarillo by swiping a match on his 7 day old stubble.  To view guilt requires proof and no amount of finger pointing at the shortcomings of the sorry bunch that the 9 are, due to compulsive lying, manipulation through evidence tampering and all the rest of it are going to prove the case.
 
Because we want something to be doesn't necessarily make it so.

Kepharel, would you indulge me (I only attained GCE O Level in English Language) and explain why the thread title uses the word 'obnoxious' and doesn't speak of this trait at all. In fact it is to speak of psychopathy and sexual perversion. I'm a bit confused Kepharel.
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Guest on 05.07.13 14:26

I always think of Jeremy Vine and his bitch queen from hell guest Nina Myscow when I hear the word obnoxious! One or both of them used it to describe people who doubted the sainted couple.

I think that Kepharel is saying that someone might be a dreadful person with no saving graces whatever but it doesn't mean that they are guilty of anything illegal.

Yes I will agree with that.

There is however a lot more to go on when it comes to suspecting the McCanns than that they are a thoroughly unpleasant pair of individuals.
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by aquila on 05.07.13 14:36

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I always think of Jeremy Vine and his bitch queen from hell guest Nina Myscow when I hear the word obnoxious! One or both of them used it to describe people who doubted the sainted couple.

I think that Kepharel is saying that someone might be a dreadful person with no saving graces whatever but it doesn't mean that they are guilty of anything illegal.

Yes I will agree with that.

There is however a lot more to go on when it comes to suspecting the McCanns than that they are a thoroughly unpleasant pair of individuals.

I'm still interested in Kepharel's carefully worded topic and his explanation as to why obnoxious isn't mentioned in the post and yet psychopathy and sexual perversion is.

After all, psychopaths and sexual perverts aren't always obnoxious are they, or have I missed something.

So come on Kepharel, explain the use of the word 'obnoxious' in the title of your thread - you chose it and I'm struggling to understand.

I'm editing to add the snip from Kepharel's post that I'm struggling with.


As the title of the post suggests, having the nature and symptoms of being a psychopath and a sexual pervert, as some of the Tapas 9 are almost certain to be, are not in themselves proof that a crime was committed on Madeleine McCann resulting in her death.
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Kepharel on 05.07.13 16:06

Hya Aquila,

So why obnoxious?  Well, i did say that research as shown that psychopaths have a complete lack of empathy.  It is the one universal trait that must be present.  Take the post of Prime Minister for example.  While I'm not saying all Prime Ministers are 'dangerous' psychopaths, or even psychopaths at all in some cases, they have to demonstrate the trait of 'lack of empathy'.  A Prime Minister has to get along with people he hates personally, sometimes with very good reason, for the sake of his own political career and the country too. Call this capacity to back slap, one of manipulation of that individual. Manipulation too in offering promises tomorrow to the awkward squad in his party through a three line whip as another example. And what about when a cabinet reshuffle is required.  he must be able to sack friends and promote enemies both for his political career and the countries good.  being able to do this requires a lack of empathy..classic psychopathic trait.  All I'm saying is that to be able to do this and sleep at night is not an endearing trait, and certainly not something that average Joe Public could do.

The same goes with sexual perversion.  We have to accept that this character flaw is not necessarily a bar to literary genius, or power and privilege, as I tried to suggest in my post.  We accept the 'obnoxious peccadilloes' of James Joyce because he is a literary genius.  So there you have it, is being obnoxious a sign of guilt, or in other words can we restrain ourselves from damning someone because of our repugnance in the personal flawed traits of that individual.
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by aquila on 05.07.13 16:27

@Kepharel wrote:Hya Aquila,

So why obnoxious?  Well, i did say that research as shown that psychopaths have a complete lack of empathy.  It is the one universal trait that must be present.  Take the post of Prime Minister for example.  While I'm not saying all Prime Ministers are 'dangerous' psychopaths, or even psychopaths at all in some cases, they have to demonstrate the trait of 'lack of empathy'.  A Prime Minister has to get along with people he hates personally, sometimes with very good reason, for the sake of his own political career and the country too. Call this capacity to back slap, one of manipulation of that individual. Manipulation too in offering promises tomorrow to the awkward squad in his party through a three line whip as another example. And what about when a cabinet reshuffle is required.  he must be able to sack friends and promote enemies both for his political career and the countries good.  being able to do this requires a lack of empathy..classic psychopathic trait.  All I'm saying is that to be able to do this and sleep at night is not an endearing trait, and certainly not something that average Joe Public could do.

The same goes with sexual perversion.  We have to accept that this character flaw is not necessarily a bar to literary genius, or power and privilege, as I tried to suggest in my post.  We accept the 'obnoxious peccadilloes' of James Joyce because he is a literary genius.  So there you have it, is being obnoxious a sign of guilt, or in other words can we restrain ourselves from damning someone because of our repugnance in the personal flawed traits of that individual.

I know people I find obnoxious - who doesn't in this world. I don't consider every person whose behaviour I find obnoxious renders them psychopaths or people with sexual perversion. I'm still no clearer from your reply (and I thank you for your reply) than I was with your initial post.

You continue to speak of psychopathy and yet don't explain why you use 'obnoxious' without qualifying it in terms of psychopathy and sexual perversion which you seem to use to underpin your post and for me gives no clarity.

I'm not part of a debate team - thankfully I lack the necessary guile. I apologise if I'm too dim to understand your message.
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Re: Does being obnoxious make you guilty?

Post by Guest on 06.07.13 11:27

Kepharel' your question and answer run a bit too deep for me, seems like a question that could be asked of students of Psychiatry. The simplest version I know of a psychopath is, someone who will stab you in the back and think nothing about it,

My questtion is, why did you pose the question and what were you realy trying to point out in The Purporting Therories Section?


aquila, does this help?

Psychopath
A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse

(Psychiatry) a person afflicted with a personality disorder characterized by a tendency to commit antisocial and sometimes violent acts and a failure to feel guilt for such acts Also called sociopath
psychopathic.
psychopathically

a person having a character disorder distinguished by amoral or antisocial behavior without feelings of remorse; psychopathic person

psychopath - someone with a sociopathic personality; a person with an antisocial personality disorder (`psychopath' was once widely used but has now been superseded by `sociopath')
sociopath
mental case, neurotic, psychoneurotic - a person suffering from neurosis

Psychopath
madman, lunatic, maniac, psychotic, nutter (Brit. slang), basket case (slang), nutcase (slang), sociopath, headcase (informal), mental case (slang), headbanger (informal), insane person She was abducted by a dangerous psychopath

Obnoxious:

Very annoying or objectionable; offensive or odious

Deserving of or liable to censure

extremely unpleasant

Obsolete exposed to harm, injury,

highly objectionable or offensive.

exposed or liable to harm

obnoxious - causing disapproval or protest; "a vulgar and objectionable person"
objectionable

offensive - unpleasant or disgusting especially to the senses; "offensive odors
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