Kate and Maddie on couch; potty-training

Hi, this is my first post to the forum. I would like to get some feedback about a couple of things. Firstly, I had an idea that seemed plausible, related to the photo in Kate's book where she is shown lying back on a couch with Madeleine as a baby. People had mentioned how young Kate looked in the photo, and how different she looked from photos taken around the same time; these other photos show her with bobbed, very blond hair and lots of makeup, almost like a professional modeling look, whereas the photo on the couch shows her looking younger, less made-up, with darker hair. This is the photo I mean:

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Here's my theory, tell me if I'm crazy! :) I think this baby is Gerry and Kate's niece on Gerry's side, John's daughter. I think the girl's name is Fiona. She seemed to be about six to seven years older than Madeleine, based on photos I have seen on her. I really wonder if this is a photo of a younger Kate (she would have been just about thirty years old when it was taken), holding a baby Fiona. I think Gerry's family has pretty strong genes and I can see a resemblance in all of them, especially around the eyes. I think Madeleine had Gerry's eyes too. I know some photos show Fiona with darker reddish-brown hair as an older girl, but it could have darkened. There's nothing in this photo which really dates it, other than the velour jacket on Kate; I think that seems kind of late-90's, personally, which would fit my theory that this is Fiona as a baby. Plus Kate's youthful appearance and darker hair are so different to what she looked like in other alleged pics of herself with Madeleine as a baby, it just seems very strange to me.

My other point is more of a question. Does anyone know if Madeleine was fully toilet-trained when she disappeared? I ask because the only mentions I have come across related to toilet habits or needs have to do with the twins still being in diapers at the time of the disappearance. But I wonder if maybe Madeleine was still having lots of accidents at the time and this could have been a catalyst for an accidental injury; one or both parents became so frustrated and fed up with the situation that something bad happened to her as a result. I was pretty fortunate to have trained both of my kids easily, right after they turned three, but I know it's not so easy for everyone. Difficulty in toileting, combined with Madeleine's alleged hyperactivity and tantruming behavior could have been a pretty explosive combination.

All of the above is my humble opinion, of course. :)

If you blow the photo up a couple of notches there appears to be a coloboma in the left eye

MissesWillYa wrote:Hi, this is my first post to the forum. I would like to get some feedback about a couple of things. Firstly, I had an idea that seemed plausible, related to the photo in Kate's book where she is shown lying back on a couch with Madeleine as a baby. People had mentioned how young Kate looked in the photo, and how different she looked from photos taken around the same time; these other photos show her with bobbed, very blond hair and lots of makeup, almost like a professional modeling look, whereas the photo on the couch shows her looking younger, less made-up, with darker hair. This is the photo I mean:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Here's my theory, tell me if I'm crazy! :) I think this baby is Gerry and Kate's niece on Gerry's side, John's daughter. I think the girl's name is Fiona. She seemed to be about six to seven years older than Madeleine, based on photos I have seen on her. I really wonder if this is a photo of a younger Kate (she would have been just about thirty years old when it was taken), holding a baby Fiona. I think Gerry's family has pretty strong genes and I can see a resemblance in all of them, especially around the eyes. I think Madeleine had Gerry's eyes too. I know some photos show Fiona with darker reddish-brown hair as an older girl, but it could have darkened. There's nothing in this photo which really dates it, other than the velour jacket on Kate; I think that seems kind of late-90's, personally, which would fit my theory that this is Fiona as a baby. Plus Kate's youthful appearance and darker hair are so different to what she looked like in other alleged pics of herself with Madeleine as a baby, it just seems very strange to me.

My other point is more of a question. Does anyone know if Madeleine was fully toilet-trained when she disappeared? I ask because the only mentions I have come across related to toilet habits or needs have to do with the twins still being in diapers at the time of the disappearance. But I wonder if maybe Madeleine was still having lots of accidents at the time and this could have been a catalyst for an accidental injury; one or both parents became so frustrated and fed up with the situation that something bad happened to her as a result. I was pretty fortunate to have trained both of my kids easily, right after they turned three, but I know it's not so easy for everyone. Difficulty in toileting, combined with Madeleine's alleged hyperactivity and tantruming behavior could have been a pretty explosive combination.

All of the above is my humble opinion, of course. :)

Hello again MissisWillYa. A very interesting post and a suggestion that I have never come accross before re the little girl being the older cousin. If this is Madeleine then Kate would have been pregnant with the twins at this time and I read she was confined to a lot of rest during that pregnancy so maybe the old fashioned valour top is just something to chuck on whilst resting. Yes the other photo of the wedding with a baby Madeleine does show a very well made up Kate who does actually look older than this picture. We have a lot of posters who are very good at putting pictures together for comparison and if I say please pretty please they might just oblige as it would be good to compare them. There is also a photo of the cousin at quite a young age that would be good to look at, another .
Re toilet training, I just don't know. The twins were certainly in nappies but never thought that Madeleine may have still being having accidents. And she was due to start school withing weeks.
Anyway, well done you for bringing a good discussion OP to the forum.

PeterMac wrote:If you blow the photo up a couple of notches there appears to be a coloboma in the left eye

You are correct PeterMac, there is a mark on the right eye. Good whilst it lasted

Potty training.
There is reference in the book to M having her last minute "wee-wee" before bed, (after milk and biscuits ! ! ) but not of the twins who one supposes were in nappies after their bath, which suggests she was relatively continent by this stage. You might take more precautions on holiday, on someone else's bed . . . if it were necessary.

Thank you both for your replies.

Re: the coloboma, wasn't this one of the photos where it was in question because it seemed to have changed position? I thought this was a photo where it was referred to as being in the "six-o'clock" position, but I may be misremembering.

No, you remember correctly, MissesWillYa. There's a discussion about the 6 and 7 o'clock positions of the [non-existing?] coloboma.

BTW I do get the impression that Kate is pregnant in this picture. It's in the eyes ... So it may well be Madeleine [and a photoshopped coloboma?].

Châtelaine wrote:No, you remember correctly, MissesWillYa. There's a discussion about the 6 and 7 o'clock positions of the [non-existing?] coloboma.

BTW I do get the impression that Kate is pregnant in this picture. It's in the eyes ... So it may well be Madeleine [and a photoshopped coloboma?].

Thanks, Chatelaine. That could very well be the case. The coloboma certainly seemed to be on the move in these old photos so this could be one of them.

MissesWillYa wrote:Hi, this is my first post to the forum. I would like to get some feedback about a couple of things. Firstly, I had an idea that seemed plausible, related to the photo in Kate's book where she is shown lying back on a couch with Madeleine as a baby. People had mentioned how young Kate looked in the photo, and how different she looked from photos taken around the same time; these other photos show her with bobbed, very blond hair and lots of makeup, almost like a professional modeling look, whereas the photo on the couch shows her looking younger, less made-up, with darker hair. This is the photo I mean:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Here's my theory, tell me if I'm crazy! :) I think this baby is Gerry and Kate's niece on Gerry's side, John's daughter. I think the girl's name is Fiona. She seemed to be about six to seven years older than Madeleine, based on photos I have seen on her. I really wonder if this is a photo of a younger Kate (she would have been just about thirty years old when it was taken), holding a baby Fiona. I think Gerry's family has pretty strong genes and I can see a resemblance in all of them, especially around the eyes. I think Madeleine had Gerry's eyes too. I know some photos show Fiona with darker reddish-brown hair as an older girl, but it could have darkened. There's nothing in this photo which really dates it, other than the velour jacket on Kate; I think that seems kind of late-90's, personally, which would fit my theory that this is Fiona as a baby. Plus Kate's youthful appearance and darker hair are so different to what she looked like in other alleged pics of herself with Madeleine as a baby, it just seems very strange to me.

My other point is more of a question. Does anyone know if Madeleine was fully toilet-trained when she disappeared? I ask because the only mentions I have come across related to toilet habits or needs have to do with the twins still being in diapers at the time of the disappearance. But I wonder if maybe Madeleine was still having lots of accidents at the time and this could have been a catalyst for an accidental injury; one or both parents became so frustrated and fed up with the situation that something bad happened to her as a result. I was pretty fortunate to have trained both of my kids easily, right after they turned three, but I know it's not so easy for everyone. Difficulty in toileting, combined with Madeleine's alleged hyperactivity and tantruming behavior could have been a pretty explosive combination.

All of the above is my humble opinion, of course. :)

It's funny you should say that, I never thought it was Maddie, Kate looks about 28 to me there and imo that was never Maddie. The coloboma was of course handy and easy to add - certifying the brand so to speak. The coloboma is fake and they've admitted that in an interview in 2011 saying it was just a fleck and they never made much of it.
The note about the velour top too,

It's funny you should say that, I never thought it was Maddie, Kate
looks about 28 there and imo that was never Maddie. The coloboma was of
course handy and easy to add - certifying the brand so to speak. The
note about the velour top too, [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hi Tigger! Thanks for your reply. As a longtime lurker here, I feel so honored to be chatting with people I consider to be the "all-stars" of this forum! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I really feel something isn't right with this photo. This baby looks just different to me, not like the other photos of Madeleine at a similar age. And that top, I don't know...it looks too slummy for Kate as she has usually presented herself. It's very possible she was on bedrest (I've been there and done that myself, in both of my pregnancies, and trust me, it was even worse when I already had the first child to care for) but still...something seems off to me.

Could be sporty, she's always made up and with earrings so that's no help.
She looks the way she could have looked if they'd been satisfied with their lot. That is really sad.

What a difference with the photo in the garden with baby Maddie on her hip and a glass of wine in her right hand. Maddie looks for all the world like a new handbag being shown off. Sorry, can't find it just now. It's in the book.

I just got word from my Maman [still in the Netherlands, but will be here soon again]. She claims I was potty-trained at 12 months. But then ... she says: I was always a fast one. So better take my younger brothers as an example: between 20 and 24 months. For the record: Madeleine was 47 months, and ... statistically girls tend to be potty-trained earlier than boys.
For what it's worth as a contribution [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

the sofa look's like the same one where Kate gave an interview saying she just wanted to shake maddie and ask her when was this maddie.

Is the pink thing cuddlecat?

If so, this is the only sighting of Madeleine with cuddlecat that I can think of.

I don't know whether it's Madeleine or not.

It's certainly the only photo that's been made public of Madeleine (if it is her) with a cuddly toy that could have been Cuddlecat - odd when supposedly she never went anywhere without it.

It certainly was well-travelled after May 2007 though!

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