Re: Trip to Huelva

by Woofer 08.05.14 11:04

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Woofer wrote:
I could agree if it was the McCann`s plan working on their own, but IMO they had establishment help and such people would be able to arrange anything.

Ah ok, that's where we differ, I do not believe that they had establishment help, not at the level of body disposal at least. I do think it very likely that some British politicians led by Gordon Brown did their best to impede and close down the Portuguese enquiry, but because of misguided loyalty similar to the stupidity demonstrated by Jacqueline Gold on Twitter.

If they could arrange anything, why was Gerry left to cart a corpse around in his hire-car?

Obviously I do not know for sure, but I think its highly likely that establishment took over all arrangements. But, yes, I concede that leaves a query over the contaminated Scenic.

by MissDaisy 08.05.14 11:05

HelenMeg wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Woofer wrote:
I could agree if it was the McCann`s plan working on their own, but IMO they had establishment help and such people would be able to arrange anything.

Ah ok, that's where we differ, I do not believe that they had establishment help, not at the level of body disposal at least. I do think it very likely that some British politicians led by Gordon Brown did their best to impede and close down the Portuguese enquiry, but because of misguided loyalty similar to the stupidity demonstrated by Jacqueline Gold on Twitter.

If they could arrange anything, why was Gerry left to cart a corpse around in his hire-car?
I tend to agree with Woofer - they had high level support in covering this up. Kate would have likely been demanding that there was a proper resting place for Madeleine and as a loose canon, they would have probably got assistance to ensure that the body reached a decent resting place.
The Mc Canns confidence in the early days could not have been experienced if they were worried about a body being found? But it does remain a possibility that they buried and disposed of her body themselves.

Operation Mincemeat is a great true story - recommend reading this story. Didnt know he was buried at Huelva

Helenmeg, it is an excellent book. If such things were capable in the 1940's it would not amaze me the lengths that could be gone to today to deceive and mislead.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 08.05.14 11:05

HelenMeg wrote:
I tend to agree with Woofer - they had high level support in covering this up. Kate would have likely been demanding that there was a proper resting place for Madeleine and as a loose canon, they would have probably got assistance to ensure that the body reached a decent resting place.
The Mc Canns confidence in the early days could not have been experienced if they were worried about a body being found? But it does remain a possibility that they buried and disposed of her body themselves.

Operation Mincemeat is a great true story - recommend reading this story. Didnt know he was buried at Huelva

A high level cover-up certainly does make for a very good conspiracy theory - I can't think of a conspiracy theory that doesn't include a high level cover-up - but there needs to be some evidence for it before I'll consider it. As it stands, Occam's Razor will do me proud :)

by HelenMeg 08.05.14 11:06

Woofer wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Woofer wrote:
I could agree if it was the McCann`s plan working on their own, but IMO they had establishment help and such people would be able to arrange anything.

Ah ok, that's where we differ, I do not believe that they had establishment help, not at the level of body disposal at least. I do think it very likely that some British politicians led by Gordon Brown did their best to impede and close down the Portuguese enquiry, but because of misguided loyalty similar to the stupidity demonstrated by Jacqueline Gold on Twitter.

If they could arrange anything, why was Gerry left to cart a corpse around in his hire-car?

Obviously I do not know for sure, but I think its highly likely that establishment took over all arrangements. But, yes, I concede that leaves a query over the contaminated Scenic.

Unless 'the establishment' prepared the burial place but it was left to Gerry to deliver the body.

by Woofer 08.05.14 11:15

HelenMeg wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Woofer wrote:
I could agree if it was the McCann`s plan working on their own, but IMO they had establishment help and such people would be able to arrange anything.

Ah ok, that's where we differ, I do not believe that they had establishment help, not at the level of body disposal at least. I do think it very likely that some British politicians led by Gordon Brown did their best to impede and close down the Portuguese enquiry, but because of misguided loyalty similar to the stupidity demonstrated by Jacqueline Gold on Twitter.

If they could arrange anything, why was Gerry left to cart a corpse around in his hire-car?
I tend to agree with Woofer - they had high level support in covering this up. Kate would have likely been demanding that there was a proper resting place for Madeleine and as a loose canon, they would have probably got assistance to ensure that the body reached a decent resting place.
The Mc Canns confidence in the early days could not have been experienced if they were worried about a body being found? But it does remain a possibility that they buried and disposed of her body themselves.

Operation Mincemeat is a great true story - recommend reading this story. Didnt know he was buried at Huelva

I agree with your bolded statement - I may be naive in thinking that, but I find it hard to believe that they would consider just dumping their daughter`s body anywhere. Some may say they would if they were desperate but I`ve never gone along with this. I`m pretty sure they had establishment help.

I don`t know what the PJ/SY are expecting to find by searching the ground around PdL, but I don`t believe they`ll find a body. All IMO.

by **tigger** 12.07.15 14:27

Snook posted something on Huelva in the Poulton topic, so here's my 5 p worth : Huelva, not a hive of activity, especially since they seem to have left around midday. All thos missed chances and those sad photographs of a crowd of 2 in what looks like the bus station.

However, Huelva is or was home to a laboratory of AstroZeneca, the pharma giant who employed John McCann. Is John McCann in any of the photographs? Iirc I had a feeling he was and the photo in question looked like fairly early to mid-morning. (somebody worked out the shadows) so if Snook is around Huelva at this moment... this is the topic to consult! nod

by ryanm 12.07.15 17:48

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GM's Phone history suggests they were homeward bound at 13.38, interesting there were no masts pinged on their outward and homeward journey except one instance at Santo Antonio.

by Guest 12.07.15 20:47

[quote="ryanm"][img][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

GM's Phone history suggests they were homeward bound at 13.38, interesting there were no masts pinged on their outward and homeward journey except one instance at Santo Antonio.[/quote]

Question: how does one stop one's GSM being pinged?
In this case from 07.22.13 till 16.28.53

by Verdi 12.07.15 21:11

tigger wrote:Snook posted something on Huelva in the Poulton topic, so here's my 5 p worth : Huelva, not a hive of activity, especially since they seem to have left around midday. All thos missed chances and those sad photographs of a crowd of 2 in what looks like the bus station.

However, Huelva is or was home to a laboratory of AstroZeneca, the pharma giant who employed John McCann. Is John McCann in any of the photographs? Iirc I had a feeling he was and the photo in question looked like fairly early to mid-morning. (somebody worked out the shadows) so if Snook is around Huelva at this moment... this is the topic to consult!

There is much controversy surrounding the rather curious visit to Huelva which on the surface makes no sense whatsoever, I don't think the McCanns or any of their elected representatives have ever given a plausible reason for the visit. I think there was talk of John McCann being with them on this little jaunt but there was not evidence to suggest he was there, there is however evidence to prove the presence of Jon Corner - easy to mistake one for the other.

Most important to my way of thinking is the reason for the visit (during a public holiday) and the reason for the missing time when they disappeared off the radar.

by ryanm 12.07.15 21:31

Portia wrote:Question: how does one stop one's GSM being pinged?
In this case from 07.22.13 till 16.28.53

I think PJ only received phone data for GM's time in Portugal. There are no records from his UK trips and Morocco. So we don't know if he made/received calls in Spain that day. There is that one text at Santo Antonio at 13:38. Other than that it seems it was a quiet day for GM's phone or it was turned off.

by **tigger** 13.07.15 9:43

PeterMac wrote:It does get very interesting / confusing.
They clearly are at the bus station, which is almost deserted, as they often are once a bus has left. Huelva is not a transport hub - it is a fairly small town on the coast.
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And they look so 'happy'
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There is a cameraman in the background of that photo, taking video of something else entirely.
And here they are harassing innocent locals
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But why go to a Bus station? By definition half the people are leaving Huelva, so if Madeleine had been there that would be entirely useless.
Of the others, many will have been coming to the Feria, (though there is no evidence of that, incidentally) so again, unless they suspected Madeleine was at the Feria what would be the point of that, as those people wil have been going home later.

These were the photographs I had in mind. The one on the terrace cannot be Jon Corner as he is completely bald. A little fat to be John McCann?
Probably Jon Corner who took the shot.
The long shadows would make it mid morning at the latest. I believe the time they left PdL according to the book was about 9.00 iirc- however that is unlikely, far more likely it was between 7 - 8.

@Portia: considering they were aware of mobile date as from zero hour and must have had expert advice not long after that, I expect there are devices that will block a signal being sent and they may have had the use of one? It is interesting that they managed to block the Huelva signals as many other signals around PdL after 3/5/07 are listed and surely they should have triggered a few other masts in Portugal on the way?
Again iirc Goncalo Amaral said that the signal they triggered wasn't on the expected route from Huelva.

In the bus station, it seems that Gerry has found a punter to actually buy a good quality wristband. The woman seems to hold her purse in her left hand.

by Guest 13.07.15 10:35

I don't see that purse, tigger.
It looks like a folded fan to me.

kindest regards
parapono

by **tigger** 13.07.15 13:32

parapono wrote:I don't see that purse, tigger.
It looks like a folded fan to me.

kindest regards
parapono

The woman seems to hold her purse - unquote:

The wristbands were being sold at the time, but as I can't be sure the verb I used:

Dictionary
[size=34]seem

\ˈsēm\
: to appear to be something or to do something : to have a quality, appearance, etc., that shows or suggests a particular characteristic, feeling, etc.
—used with it to make a statement about what appears to be true based on what is known
[/size]

by Guest 13.07.15 13:47

Let's agree to differ.
I don't need a dictionary to get the gist.
I wrote 'looks like',
pretty much the same as the verbs you proposed.
All imo and with the kindest regards
parapono

by **tigger** 13.07.15 14:05

parapono wrote:Let's agree to differ.
I don't need a dictionary to get the gist.
I wrote 'looks like',
pretty much the same as the verbs you proposed.
All imo and with the kindest regards
parapono

I don't see that purse' is a definitive statement of something that is present or stated to be present.
Therefore the rest follows.
I tried to delete all my last posts but apparently that is not possible. So let's hope this intellectual discussion sinks to the bottom of the heap asap.

by snook 13.07.15 15:18

Hi Tigger. I only mention Huelva as having now been there in the middle of summer, I am even more surprised at the choice for the trip to publicise Madeleine's disappearance as it is sooo quiet ! Also ( please don't think I'm one of the British abroad who expects Johnny foreigner to be fluent in English ), hardly anyone speaks our language, even in the resort areas, such as they are.

I cannot think what Mr & Mrs Mc hoped to achieve unless it was in fact a subterfuge? There must be hundreds of more suitable places to 'search/spread the word' in Spain.

by worriedmum 13.07.15 15:43

The thing that strikes me about the trip to Huelva, is what they DIDN'T do....

They didn't line up school children with paintings and photos of Madeleine

They didn't shake hands with local dignitaries

They didn't meet priests and go into church

They didn't release balloons

Did they appear in the local press?

Were they on local television and radio?

Why oh why was this event so different?

by **PeterMac** 13.07.15 16:53

They didn't notice the most important Feria in Southern Spain
They didn't notice that the town was packed and parking was impossible
They didn't notice that there were people dressed up traditional costume
They didn't notice road closures
They didn't notice signs for public parking, and "park and ride" systems to get the thousand of visitors to the Bull ring and the Feria site

Where were they ?
And when ?
And why ?

by worriedmum 13.07.15 18:11

Would the Feria be televised? Is that why we can see a camera in the background?

by Nina 13.07.15 18:29

PeterMac wrote:They didn't notice the most important Feria in Southern Spain
They didn't notice that the town was packed and parking was impossible
They didn't notice that there were people dressed up traditional costume
They didn't notice road closures
They didn't notice signs for public parking, and "park and ride" systems to get the thousand of visitors to the Bull ring and the Feria site

Where were they ?
And when ?
And why ?

And the bands, and the processions, and the horses with riders or pulling carts and landaus. The stalls selling all manner of delicious food. The fairground rides, the noise, the crowds etc etc.

by notlongnow 13.07.15 20:39

They are being filmed in the 2nd picture,looks like the same cameraman as in the 3rd one.

by **tigger** 14.07.15 9:34

worriedmum wrote:Would the Feria be televised? Is that why we can see a camera in the background?

I think the cameraman we see is Jon Corner, I also think they were in Huelva very early in the morning, surely the feria would not start till after 12.00. My guess is they were there between 9 and 10 am, even allowing for the one hour difference in Spain. They left as someone posted earlier, around 13.45, thus missing all the fun. ( they were also seen at 11.20 in the centre of Huelva)

The trip was as it were 'advertised' in Gerry's blog, held up by a day because of a one day virus Gerry suffered from.
We also have that strange sequence of loading the car with posters, presumably the start of their trip to Huelva. I'm pretty sure that was Jon Corner filming. Around that time he must have made that peculiar film with the famous 'Whoosh, clunk' from Kate in it.

The women accosted by the McCs don't even look as if they're at all interested - certainly the lady getting a wristband and her friend don't look as if they're happy being filmed.

So we have:
filmed 'evidence' of the car being filled with boxes of posters
a snapshot at a petrol station on the way
only one antenna triggered by Gerry's mobile during the whole trip
shots of a near-empty bus station with imo rather posed photographs
the Espace seen on the way out of town at a traffic light around 13.45
Almost certainly three people in the car as the witness stated.

Question: who is the short fat man on the terrace? He seems too fat to be John McCann, who would have a business reason to be in Huelva for his pharma firm. Why on earth was that pointless photo released or taken at all?
This trip was delayed by the search of the villa - so one keeps in mind that the dogs have been all over 5a (Gerry made a special trip to block G to see what the police were doing) the villa too has been checked out by the dogs. Exactly why was this trip scheduled for this date - if it was scheduled and not occasioned by the search? Just a thought.
I've seen a lot of boring holiday films but never one that lingered so lovingly on the boot of a car with cardboard boxes in it.

And then all those things they didn't do, not even pray2

a quick blessing in the church.

by worriedmum 14.07.15 11:06

yes , here is the 'packing clip', 4.40 onwards

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by **tigger** 14.07.15 13:42

worriedmum wrote:yes , here is the 'packing clip', 4.40 onwards

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Just read back from page one - Hicks gave the link for the sighting at the traffic lights and it is in fact 11.20 the woman saw them. Probably four people in the car, so where the time when they left town comes from, I've forgotten..

The dogs inspected the cars on the 6th of August. Still doesn't throw light on that clip of the boot but in any case, but as the car had been aired for a considerable time according to the neighbour (Always had the rear door wide open all night when parked at the villa) the McCs were 'boot aware' so to speak. The dogs started work about the end of July iirc.

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