Hiding in plain sight

by Paddingtom 06.08.24 13:36

Ive thought long and hard about publishing this info. But have come to the conclusion that it is information that has always been there just perhaps not collated as I have done, so I take no credit for the information.

Apologies to anyone that has already done this research.

It can be challenging reading at times as I have extracted only the paragraphs that I think are relevant so it is not a narrative as such, just several independent paragraphs which I have extracted to create the overall picture.
Some may seem irrelevant. I did think about not using these in the interests of brevity, but did not want to be open to accusations of only selecting paragraphs that supported the narrative, so rightly or wrongly, I have included them. It is for you to decide what is relevant.

I have been looking into the lunch arrangements for the group for the week Sat 28^th April to Thur 3^rd May, utilising all their police statements.

Obviously, with the group arriving on Sat 28^th April they muddled through as best they could with lunch arrangements for that first day and it is from this point onwards that they established a routine.

Items of particular interest are highlighted in bold. Here is what I found.

Kate Mccann
4/5/2007 nothing relevant

6/9/2007 nothing relevant

Gerry Mccann
4/5/2007 nothing relevant

7/9/2007 nothing relevant

Matt Oldfield
4/5/2007
At lunchtime, the habit was to meet up in one of the apartments occupied by the group to have lunch there with the children.

10/5/2007
With respect to lunch, he relates that the couples usually ate it as a group in one of the four apartments, adding that the Payne's apartment was commonly used due to its larger size.

Subsequently the three of them went to the Payne apartment for lunch. He clarifies that he lunched there with the Paynes, their children and mother-in-law, and with ROB and JT. He does not recall if KM and GM were there. (Thursday)

9/4/2008
there wasn't really much in the, in the Tapas Restaurant for kids so much, we tended to bring, come back to the apartment and actually sort of do some pasta and or beans or whatever she fancied eating and we'd sort of feed there. And initially I think we did that in our own apartment and we were sort of like chatting over the walls to Gerry and Kate on one side and when the top tier looked over they could see us as well.

and if we were upstairs eating with Dave and Fiona, as we did much more towards the end of the week, erm, then she'd maybe sleep

picked Grace up from Nursery and, erm, had lunch, but I can't remember where we had lunch that day, it may have been at Dave and Fiona's by that point in the week. (Thursday)

Err I'm not quite sure when I last saw (MM) her because it depending on whether we had lunch together as a group in David and Fiona's, which err we may have done on the last day because it got more common as we went through the week but it was more common for the six in terms of the, David, Fiona, already in the apartment of course with Dianne and err Russ and Jane and Grace and Rachael and I to go up there and have lunch as a group than it was to have err the full complete group (Mccanns) there at lunch time.

Rachel Oldfield
4/5/2007
She made ******'s lunch and then they went to Russell O'Brien or David Payne's apartment, where they all ate together. Only Gerry and Kate McCann had lunch in their apartment with the twins and Madeleine.

11/5/2007
After class, they collected [took up] their daughter and went to the apartment of David Payne and FIONA, where thay had lunch all together. (Thursday)

Questioned, she states that during the holiday period she went to lunch at the apartment of David and Fiona,

When the lesson finished, they collected their daughter and went to David and Fiona Payne’s apartment, where they all lunched together. (Thursday)

When questioned, she states that during the holiday period she went to lunch at the apartment of David and Fiona,

15/5/2007
They all lunched in David and Fionas apartment. The McCanns lunched in their apartment and then went to meet the others. (Sunday)

they went to pick up the children and all had lunch in David and Fionas apartment apart from the McCann family. (Thursday)

9/4/2008
and then that first day I think we just had lunch sort of in the Tapas but you know the menu wasn't really that suitable for your kids

and then after that Sunday, every day after that we ate, we all had lunch in erm Dave and Fi's apartment, erm it was you know, pasta or something for the kids and Diane would make sandwiches for all of us'.

I remember one, I think it might have been on the Monday that they (the Mccanns) came up to Dave and Fi's after, sort of after lunch but otherwise they did their own thing at lunch time and the rest of us went up to Dave and Fi's apartment and the kids had lunch there and you know we'd have a bite to eat as well

and then erm I think we went to Dave and Fi's you know, for lunch as usual, Dave and Fi's apartment, erm (Thursday)

Fiona Payne
4/5/2007
they would go to get the children from the crêche and would have lunch in the apartment, at times with other children.

16/5/2007 no mention of lunch

10/4/2008
we had a slightly bigger apartment. Erm, because of that our apartment seemed to be the meeting point for lunchtimes and things like that, just because it was bigger and had a view, a better view than the others.

And then, erm, come lunchtime we'd pick them up, pick the kids up and meet back at the, at our apartment and, generally, I think, every day, we fed the kids in our apartment and usually Matt and Rachael came, would come up and Russ and Jane were there and the kids and usually Kate and Gerry had theirs in their apartment, mainly because their, they just found it easier'.

Erm, I'm trying to think if they came up earlier on in the week, I don't, I think they might have, might have had the odd lunch, but, on the whole, they'd sort of, they did their own thing at lunchtime. (mccanns)

'Erm, I'm sure they did, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think every, I think every lunch, bar the Thursday, we had people in the apartment having lunch.

'Tut, again, I, I'm ninety-nine percent sure, erm, everybody, bar Kate and Gerry and the children, had come for lunch'. (Monday)

Again, I couldn't tell you. We didn't really see Kate and Gerry for any lunchtimes,

erm, I went up to ours for lunch. And that day, erm, I think was the only day that no-one else came for lunch, erm, tut, I think that was just me, Dave and my mum, and the others, Rachael and Matt, I think, had their lunch with Russ and Jane, erm, so those two families were together, Kate and Gerry on their own and us on our own. (Thursday)

David Payne
4/5/2007 no mention of lunch

11/4/2008
01:01:02 1485 "Okay. I understand that your apartment was like the meeting place.'
Reply "Yes.'
1485 "Can you recall that''
Reply "Yes, definitely. Err you know, I, I, it just happened you know the way it happened you know people just gravitated up to err to our room err you know it's, I suppose some part we'd got Dianne there who is fantastic at you know helping, you know it's a free set of hands whereas you know Russ and Jane obviously they've got two, and we've got two and so you know it was good that we've got someone extra to help out while you know someone's preparing the food, keep an eye on the children, err so often you know we would, you know we'd con, congregate there at lunch time and quite often if I remember Matt and Rachael would bring Grace along and you know we'd eat there together. Err a lot of the time we didn't tend to see you know Kate and Gerry you know it was more Russell and Jane primarily I remember, and sometimes Matt and Rachael and Grace but generally err Kate and Gerry would do their own thing err you know during the day, so that's, but they you know they would still come up you know from time to time.
err we had lunch err in the apartment.

Dianne Webster
4/5/2007 no mention of lunch

11/5/2007
she points out that several families who made up the group met in the PAYNE's apartment to have lunch together, explaining that this was due to the fact that it is the larger apartment.

11/4/2008
Reply    ”Lunch I think we had that in the apartment err there was a Supermarket just down the road, which I think I went a few times and did shopping, err put some stuff in the house because obviously it was an apartment with a kitchen and whatnot. Err I spent a lot of time making sandwiches.”
  4078    ”Did you do the preparing for, because I understand a lot of people visited for lunch time because it was the biggest apartment?”
Reply    ”Yeah, yeah.”
  4078    ”So did you end up doing all the preparations?”
Reply    ”Yeah I used to err I volunteered, I wasn’t expected to but err but I can’t, I can’t, I wouldn’t say that was everyday. You see I get confused now between the actual weeks holiday and the, the weeks after Madeleine was taken.”
Reply    ”Yeah because after that you know I was doing lunch for everybody, and we were all, we were all sort of err having a muck in and, but it was always in, in the apartment we were in because it was the biggest one err

you would go to the Baptista Supermarket to do shopping for lunch. On your return various families that comprised the group used to meet up in the PAYNE’S apartment to have lunch together because it was the biggest apartment.”

Jane Tanner
04/05/2007
They would sometimes have lunch together in one of the couples' apartments.
They both went to their apartment (1) taking their daughters with them. Mathew and Rachel and their daughter also appeared and had lunch with them. (Thursday)

10/5/2007
(Wed)
She recalls that after the boat trip she was with her husband and girls, all having gone to lunch at the apartment of FP and DP. She is not sure but thinks that MO and RMO also lunched with them in the apartment. She does not know where the McCanns lunched.

8/4/2008
I don’t know where we had lunch but we often tended to have lunch in err Dave and Fi’s room, again because it was a bigger room and we just tended to congregate there.”
4078    “Did everybody do that?”
Reply    “They did but apart from Kate and Gerry often had it in their own, their own apartment, err I don’t know whether they ever came, I don’t think they ever, I think they tended to have lunch, lunch in their own apartment

4078    “Okay. And you’ve already said that you were in the habit of going to David and Fiona’s for lunch.”
Reply    “Mm, yeah.”
4078    “Because they had the biggest apartment. Did you go into any of the other apartments?”
Reply    “We went in to Matt and Rachael’s apartment but I hadn’t been in to Kate and Gerry’s apartment until, well the night Madeleine went missing.
4078    “Do you remember if you went to David and Fiona’s, was it every day you went there, or?”
Reply    “Err I think, it was every day except I think on the Thursday we actually ate in, Matt and Rachael came to our apartment, it was just us and Matt and Rachael. I can’t remember why we didn’t go up to Dave and Fi’s but I don’t know whether one of their kids had gone to bed already or something but I think every day up to that point we had eaten in their apartment, but on the Thursday it was just Matt and Rachael came, came, came to ours.”
4078    “Okay. So on the Wednesday then you’re likely to have been at David and Fiona’s?”
Reply    “I think so. I’m not sure but I think so.”
And I think that day was the day we had lunch in our apartment with just Matt and Rachael and not Dave and Fi. (Thursday)

My Comments: With the exception of some confusion over Thursday, which I will comment on shortly, I think we can be confident that every day after Sunday, Jane, Russ, Matt and Rachael lunched at the Paynes:

Rachel: and then after that Sunday, every day after that we ate, we all had lunch in erm Dave and Fi's apartment,

Fiona Payne: I think every, I think every lunch, bar the Thursday, we had people in the apartment having lunch.

Fiona Payne: And that day, erm, I think was the only day that no-one else came for lunch, (Thursday)

Jane: every day up to that point (Thursday)we had eaten in their apartment(Paynes)

Everyone agrees that the Mccanns did not join the group for lunch other than one day which Rachael thinks was Monday but we know was Sunday 29^th because the cleaner admired the lights on Maddies pumps.

So, why does this matter? Because we then have Russ' statement:

Russ O'Brien
4/5/2007 no mention of lunch

11/5/2007 no mention of lunch

16/5/2007 no mention of lunch

8/4/2008
We didn’t eat out at lunchtime we generally ate with Rachael and Matt and this was in our apartment or theirs, as well as at David and Fiona’s. After Madeleine disappeared we all began eating lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment.

10/4/2008 - (Russell is asked to read his statement and make any changes necessary)

Yeah, erm, I think, where it says ‘We generally ate with Rachael and Matt’, erm, ‘and this was in our apartment or theirs’, I think it could be worth saying there ‘We also ate in’, erm, ‘Fiona and Dave’s flat’ full-stop. ‘And then after Madeleine disappeared we all began eating in Dave and Fiona’s’, well ‘We all began eating lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment very, very, very regularly’, that became the focus for us all. So just the addition of, erm, ‘and sometimes at Fiona and’”.
1578    “’We didn’t eat out at lunchtime we generally ate with Rachael and Matt’'”
Reply    “’And this was in our apartment or theirs or also Fiona and Dave’s’, that’s probably the easiest way of just adding it without changing the whole thing. So there was a, there was a sort of a circuit of lunches where all the kids would get together and after Madeleine disappeared we generally ate lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment”.
1578    “So we include ‘or theirs/Dave and Fiona’'”
Reply    “Dave and Fi as well, yeah. And then the next bit is fair enough, which is fair enough there that ‘After Madeleine disappeared we began eating’ maybe just ‘lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment regularly’.

Reply    “Yeah. I think rather than, erm, at one point I know, erm, Madeleine and Sean and Amelie did eat lunch in, in Dave and Fi’s apartment, so rather than ‘each day’ it might be worth just saying ‘most days’. I think they, they generally, erm, had their lunch separate, I think. So it says ‘Kate and Gerry had lunch in their apartment as they did each day’, but there was certainly an occasion on one of them, sort of a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, erm, that they, that they ate up in, you know, we were all, all the kids were together at one point, it was a bit of a squeeze with everyone in there”.

My Comments:
Now we have Russ telling us that they started eating at the Paynes every day after Madeleine disappeared. It would appear that Sunday and Madeleines disappearance are one and the same.

Regarding the confusion over Thursday, I think this is explainable.

Sunday was the last day before the tragedy that evening. Thursday was the last day before the announcement of the tragedy that evening. Thursday had become the new Sunday.

The friends were relaying the events of Sunday as if they had taken place on Thursday. What I mean by this is that the lunch arrangements of Sunday were spoken about as if they had happened on Thursday.

What I think actually happened is that on the Sunday, the Mccanns lunched at the Paynes.
The Oldfields lunched in Russ and Jane's apartment for the first and only time.

After the tragedy on Sunday night, the Mccanns lunched in their own apartment every day and Russ, Jane, Rachel and Matt lunched in the Paynes apartment every day from then on including Thursday.

The only day that was actually different was Sunday, not Thursday as they will have us believe.

There is one other item in Russ' statement which is unrelated but rather tragic.
When asked to make any changes he wants to his statement he selects the following sentence:

Reply    …..... It says ‘I want out’, erm, erm, I think it should probably say ‘I went out’. I think the conversation we were having there is actually I think me and Matt”.
1578    “It should be ‘went’, shouldn’t it'”
Reply    “It should be ‘Went out in the afternoon to the beach’.

My comment: I think he was probably right first time.

by Bluebagthepirate 06.08.24 14:18

I don't think they faked the creche for a whole week.

I think they did Thursday though.

I think Bernt has it right.

by Cake Lover 06.08.24 14:28

Well done for wading through that verbal treacle, and making sense of it.

by Paddingtom 06.08.24 14:32

Oh Cake Lover, you did make me laugh......so thats what it was!!! Verbal treacle. How apt!!

by AnneCGuedes 06.08.24 14:53

The Payne flat (two bedrooms, but curiously DW slept in the sitting room) was only bigger than the Oldfield flat (one bedroom), DW's presence made all the difference.

by Bluebagthepirate 06.08.24 15:44

I think you have read way too much into Russ's 'after Madeleine disappeared'

I take it you disagree with Bernt Stellander?

by Paddingtom 06.08.24 17:26

I think Bernt has done sterling work and I applaud him. But I think he has got the date wrong. It doesnt alter his achievement thou.

Likewise, I think RDH and many others have done sterling work and achieved enormous amounts, but I do not agree with every conclusion he comes to.

I also think Goncalo has done amazing work at phenomenal personal cost, but again, I do not agree with all his conclusions.

Whether this will matter in the fullness of time, who knows. maybe, maybe not. I just think its worth having as much info. as possible available so that each and every one of us can come to our own conclusions by making sense of the information.

I mostly agree with RDH, but not completely. That doesnt take anything away from RDH or Bernt or Goncalo. If anyone is going to bring a conclusion to this story, then I suspect it will be Bernt. Well done him.

by Paddingtom 06.08.24 17:56

p.s. I also think the reason Wednesday was "the night of all nights" was not because they were thinking of their lost daughter, but because they were thinking of themselves. It was their last night of anonimity, the last night of freedom before their lives were changed forever. If I remember correctly, it was the only night they said they stayed out late. they were having their last fling before their world changed forever. But Im sure you will disagree. we are all entitled to our opinions.

by **PeterMac** 06.08.24 19:17

It’s an interesting theory and a painstaking piece of research digging out all the information.

Put another spin on it. Assume that most of the time they are telling the truth
G&K+ 3 go to the Payne’s for lunch on Sunday - M’s shoes light up- and she is carrying a sandwich on a plate - independent witness
After Sunday G decides that with 3 children it is too much hassle and the McCanns eat in their own apartment , but the rest do whatever they do.
From Friday the Tapas all have lunch in the Payne’s apartment every day - as he unnecessarily emphasises - as they realise that Amaral and the PJ don’t believe them,
and that G and JT have fouled up the sighting of Tannerman, and they are on the brink of being caught.
Council of War, committee room 5H. 1400. daily
and I bet G ‘popped in’ whilst K was making sandwiches or baked beans for TWO

The facts are the same. Only the date has been moved by two days.
I believe it passes the Occam’s Razor test
Just a thought.

by Silentscope 06.08.24 19:59

Keeping (generally) things True, with minor Adjustments to fit their requirements seems to be the McCann way.

Agreed.

by AnneCGuedes 06.08.24 20:09

What would you call issuing a missing child's alert when your child has been dead and cold for some twenty hours, waiting to be moved to another location? Certainly not a "minor adjustment", then how ?

by Silentscope 06.08.24 21:38

I agree with the Suspicion that the 'Team McCann' Members have been briefed or agreed to certain changes to what were true and known facts by all. Whichever percent of Truth was added to with how much Lie is the Question.

For example:
The Crying incident(s).
The Mallorca holiday.

Obviously the greatest Lie was told on Thursday night.

Not just a minor Adjustment, a Major one for sure.

by Paddingtom 07.08.24 7:22

PeterMac wrote:It’s an interesting theory and a painstaking piece of research digging out all the information.

Put another spin on it. Assume that most of the time they are telling the truth
G&K+ 3 go to the Payne’s for lunch on Sunday - M’s shoes light up- and she is carrying a sandwich on a plate - independent witness
After Sunday G decides that with 3 children it is too much hassle and the McCanns eat in their own apartment , but the rest do whatever they do.
From Friday the Tapas all have lunch in the Payne’s apartment every day - as he unnecessarily emphasises - as they realise that Amaral and the PJ don’t believe them,
and that G and JT have fouled up the sighting of Tannerman, and they are on the brink of being caught.
Council of War, committee room 5H. 1400. daily
and I bet G ‘popped in’ whilst K was making sandwiches or baked beans for TWO

The facts are the same. Only the date has been moved by two days.
I believe it passes the Occam’s Razor test
Just a thought.

Iknow exactly where youre coming from Peter and I thought exactly the same thing initially. But going thru the statements it was apparent that they were being asked to talk about the events of 29th - 3rd. only not the events of the week after,.
The documents are full of other incidents that happened in that week as a narrative . I know I have made it look like random comments by extracting the lunch details, but I can promise it wasnt. In all cases they were telling a story and lunch was only a small part of that story .
For a made up example it would say something like " Us four adults went fishing that morning as the sea was calm. We didnt catch anything and had to get back for lunch to pick up the girls from creche so we could have lunch at the Paynes as we always did."
Do you se what I mean? If anyone has got any doubts about how I have compiled this, I would respectfully suggest you pich a random person and find their lunch comment, You will see it is part of a description of the things they did on the day in question. - it is that week and that week only that we are talking about. I stand by the documents, IMHO they are only talking about the week 29th - 3rd.

However, I totally agree with you about the council of war. IMHO, I think, Sunday night was the night of the awful events and the reason the mccanns stayed in their flat thereafter was for fear someone would do a headcount. (witness maddies shoes) And also to do some serious bleaching and rearranging.

I even wondered at one point whether they were still keeping it from DW and didnt want her doing a head count. But after some outside influence (you know who you are) I think now that it was an opportunity for everyone else to discuss and act out their roles. Maybe they were passed some written instructions that they passed arround and decided who would do what? I dont know. But I totally agree it was a cobra meeting taking place over lunch. As has been pointed out to me, they didnt want to use thier phones for fear the police would question them about it. Shutting themselves in a room to discuss it was safer. I stand by the documents.

by crusader 07.08.24 11:39

I don't know why the tapas lot always say the Payne apartment was the biggest, I'm sure it was the same size as the McCann's apart from the outside area which was a lot smaller.
The O'Brien apartment was the same size as the McCann's with a slightly smaller outside space.
I would have thought it would have been much easier to all meet at the McCann apartment for lunch.
On the ground floor, with bigger outside space.

by Cake Lover 07.08.24 11:50

Perhaps their apartment stank of bleach, or other chemicals, or is that grasping at straws?

by Paddingtom 07.08.24 14:24

I think it was useful to have DW volunteering for sandwich making and it might have been as innocent as that why they chose the Paynes apartment.
It was also the only one that wasnt ground floor - ive got no idea if this is significant

I think Cake Lover's bleach theory of why they didnt use the Mccann flat, is spot on. No pun intended.

by Paddingtom 07.08.24 14:51

just discovered flat 5c was empty. This is directly below the Paynes flat.

Mrs Fenn was next door to the paynes flat but it is possible the other ones were empty as it was early in the season. It might be that their flat was chosen to avoid as much as possible, any overhearing. They probably hoped Mrs fenn was a bit mutton Jeff as she was elderly.

This might have no significance at all.

I think it was probably just the presence of DW's and her willingness to make sandwiches.

by Paddingtom 07.08.24 14:55

crusader wrote:I don't know why the tapas lot always say the Payne apartment was the biggest, I'm sure it was the same size as the McCann's apart from the outside area which was a lot smaller.
The O'Brien apartment was the same size as the McCann's with a slightly smaller outside space.
I would have thought it would have been much easier to all meet at the McCann apartment for lunch.
On the ground floor, with bigger outside space.

I think the Mccanns were far too busy bleaching to host loads of people for lunch. Everyone says they did not attend lunch with everyone else so I would put this down to them being busy.

by sandancer 07.08.24 16:39

Can anyone please point me to the actual Evidence that apartment 5a was cleaned with bleach by Kate and Gerry ?
I've read many comments about it over the years but never seen anything that proves it happened ?

by crusader 07.08.24 17:37

I think it's one of the Main Stream Media made up remarks where it stated the cleaner reported a strong smell of bleach in 5a.
It was also said, surgical gloves and a syringe were found.

by sandancer 07.08.24 19:31

Main stream media are responsible for the majority of " myths " , made up stories that surround the disappearance of Madeline ! But hey isn't that what the media is for , muddy the waters as much as possible so no one is certain what is fact or fiction !

by Cake Lover 07.08.24 19:37

I don't recall having heard or read of the apartment having been bleached, that's just guesswork, because of traces of blood which G.Mcann attributed to nose bleeds.

by Bluebagthepirate 07.08.24 20:56

I don't think they found traces of bleach. But they didn't find traces of anything and something cleaned them.

by Cammerigal 08.08.24 2:38

The McCanns and and co were all medical doctors, educated in hospital sanitation and hygiene. After blood spills, they would know how to deep clean. Bleach is most effective, but biological washing powder would do and this would also erase all DNA, aka evidence. Spraying bleach in a room was also used by the 'cleansing' teams after vicious sectarian murders in Northern Ireland.

We know from the PJ files that there was very little 'normal' DNA that one would expect to find at the scene from a holidaying family with a week in a room, such as everyone's hairs, sticky children's fingerprints, shed skin particles etc. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!

We also know that the PJ found dilute cadaver blood underneath the floor tiles, thanks to the indications from dogs Eddie and Keela. To get there would indicate water dilution and scrubbing of cracked tile grout (perhaps using a missing toothbrushes). The dilute blood had 15 out of 19 DNA genetic markers from Maddie.

NB Where is the Verdi(s) to contradict any Dog related evidence, or attempt to put down and denigrate @silentscope ? I do miss him/her/them. woof!