The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Secondary drowning

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Post by Verdi 29.04.22 18:10

Arnold wrote:And it’s not my timeline and this investigative forum shows it’s own myth by ruling out something they don’t believe happened.

That is a very unfair comment!

If you take the time to read at least some of the research undertaken by CMOMM/MMRG, you will observe that everything is based on evidence and intelligence taken from the PJ files and other sources of reasoned commentary about the case. If you register with the forum and straight away launch an unsubstantiated theory based only on the word of Neil Berry featured in the Netflix Madeleine McCann production, you will be challenged. As I said previously, the Netflix production is pure fantasy, it has little or no semblance of truth or reality - again if you take the time to watch even part of the show and compare with the evidence available, you will see for yourself.

Your theory is devoid of evidence. You've been given ample opportunity to answer member's questions and comments by reasonably justifying your theory but unfortunately, you've so far failed to convince or even give food for thought. Thus, I'm led towards thinking your presence here is nothing but an idle distraction - prove me wrong, let's see some evidence to support your theory.

I implore you, do take the time to familiarize yourself with the basics and all the key players and try to realise just how unreal you theory is - and yes, it is a theory!
Arnold wrote:
Madeleine is banned by the researchers from the beach on Thursday morning.

Just like the Pj, the Leiscester police and the MET reviewers.

Sorry, I don't understand what this means.


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Post by sandancer 29.04.22 19:45

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Gerry McCann told us he had no problem with people " purporting a theory " 

So , you have purported your theory , but with nothing to back it up , no facts , no evidence . It appears to be based on a comment from Neil Berry which you choose to believe ( ok your choice ) but as many have said this comment has no reliability . 

If you have read Peter Macs ebook remember the " story " of Maddie " whizzing down the water slide " which was created by a reporter , a complete work of fiction ! I suggest this " story " is the same . 

Once again , please tell us how you have reached the conclusion and why , that Madeleine died at 15.00 in apartment 5a from secondary  drowning . 

Give us the " timeline " that leads up to this event containing facts and evidence not hearsay , guesswork and speculation please . 
Otherwise I feel your " theory " is dead in the water .

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Post by Arnold 01.05.22 10:51

“MMRG supports the overall conclusion of the Portuguese Police (PJ) and Gonçalo Amaral, namely that Madeleine died in her parents’ apartment, and that there has been a cover-up of the true facts of her death by the McCanns, their Tapas 7 friends, and by government security services. However, through patient research by the group, and using the best research by others, MMRG respectfully disagrees with the PJ’s conclusion that Madeleine died from an accident after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007, the day Madeleine was reported missing. MMRG’s belief is that Madeleine died much earlier that week. Many facts have emerged during the past 12 years that MMRG now believes are wholly inconsistent with her death on 3 May.”


The MMRG beliefs that this parental hoax story shows that she died on Sunday April 29 2007 or maybe on Monday. 


The last photo (parachute) of Madeleine was taken by the father of Jessica Berry. It was her memory about the dive and near drowning. 


Officially It is called ‘accidental’ death.


Lack of oxygen caused her death. That is the most tragic part of this case. Two doctors who failed in saving her life and perverted the course of justice.


If this forum is a legacy to Madeleine it should review their own crap.
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Post by crusader 01.05.22 11:13

It's well known on this forum that I don't believe Madeleine died before 3rd May.
I can't prove she died on 3rd, but I respect all the research that has been done that indicates it was before this date, it is backed up with a lot of research that backs this chain of thought .
If you [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] have evidence, for secondary drowning, bring it on.
Up to now, all your posts are theory, with only the symptoms of secondary drowning explained.
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Post by onehand 01.05.22 11:30

i am not so nice as crusader, who is fully right. 

well, i had already some leads into it, but this message of you is evidence, your reading skills in the english language are not up to standard, and i think even nobodies standards. 

you have no understanding of the concept of nuances, you have also a absolute own fantastic definition for the concept of theory.

you just have proven, the theory from the mmrg group is not set in stone, but yours is, posters outside the mmrg group like myself have no problem at all to go into discussions with standings, findings and what nots of the mmrg group. i have never have had the feeling i had to just following blind into their findings, conclusions, or theories. 

and the lines you produce yourself are also proof of that, nothing set in stone. 

but please take a look at your words, you choose to state things, you leave no room for any discussion, you just want to tell us, this is what is happened and no other, well let me congratulate you with your sandcastle and the rest of your happy live. have a nice sunday! bye, bye!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], do we have actually a kind of button to not have to view at a certain members messages. you know a kind of i do not like a member, just zap them. never had a need for such a thing til now. 

used information, to reach my conclusions; 
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Post by Verdi 01.05.22 15:19

onehand wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], do we have actually a kind of button to not have to view at a certain members messages. you know a kind of i do not like a member, just zap them. never had a need for such a thing til now.

I take no responsibility for Arnold's presence here on CMOMM.  

Providing a member, old or new, follows forum rules and keeps within the realms of reality they are welcome to challenge past forum research, just as others are welcome to challenge new theory presented.

We all disagree on many of the finer points of research but one thing remains constant .... Madeleine McCann has not been seen or heard of since her 'disappearance' was reported to the world on the night of 3rd/4th May 2007.

If a new or long standing member presents a theory with no evidence to support their theory, no substance, far removed from even plausible then my patience quickly wears thin.

I do not waver in that respect!

whacky

What should be remembered, CMOMM/MMRG is a serious dedicated platform essentially here to support justice for a little three year old child - almost certainly prematurely taken from this world.  That is where all the evidence points.

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Post by Verdi 01.05.22 15:37

Arnold wrote:If this forum is a legacy to Madeleine it should review their own crap.

Now now Arnold, you're turning nasty.  Behave!

If you want to talk theory excrement, take a look in the mirror.

Not only is your baseless theory focused on a story told years down the line,  about a boating incident - a boating incident allegedly involving Madeleine McCann and the very young daughter of a fellow holidaymaker but now you include the parachute (?) photograph said to show Madeleine in the foreground.

Courtesy of Netflix!!!

You've taken the time to have a cursory look at forum research and identified specific areas you feel are 'crap' [sic], perhaps now you will be courteous enough to explain why you think it 'crap'.  You are welcome to challenge specifics.

Before responding, go back to the specific areas you identify and learn why the conclusions were reached - that is where the importance lies.  Then and only then, reflect on your own baseless theory - and your presence here on CMOMM

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Post by Arnold 02.08.22 10:32

Hello Tony Bennett,

it’s six years ago after this thread was written linked to Daniel Stuk and no respons from Dennissally again. 

Russell O’Brien and David Payne bumped at different moments into this tennis coach after midnight when they both seperately were searching for Maddie nearthe Millennium restaurant and the Mirage Bar. 
Russell saw him in a car with an unknown person. He couldn’t say Dan was a passenger or the driver. David bumped into him in rough’ land close to the Millennium. 
I did some background research lately into this guy because he could be involved in this fake abduction story.
One of his friends in 2007 was the local resident Luis Machado, freelance tennis coach and owner of António’s (Yolo) grill restaurant on the Rua da Praia 4 in Luz.
I wondered if he could be the unknown passenger/driver in the car and maybe even linked to the Tannerman sighting (Oval face and long black hair, 1.70m ) or maybe even in the hiding of her corpse if she died earlier that afternoon cause lack of oxygen.
On May 11 I introduced the ‘secondary drowning’ possibility on this forum as a new member. I know that Sharoni closed a thread about drowning in the OC pool. 
My scenario in linked to a sailing incident at sea which was never mentioned to the PJ in informally interviews of the OC waterfront employees between 10.30am - 
11.00am when Gerry had a tennis lesson from Dan Stuk, the one who 
Could be chosen by Gerry to help him and his wife escaping justice.

Hoping for a reply, 

Arnold.
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Post by Verdi 02.08.22 12:57

Hello again Arnold,

It's three months since you were last here with your baseless theory of 'death by secondary drowning'.

As this latest post of yours is verging on the same subject, I will merge the two in due course.  Your theory does not warrant a place on important  threads, nor does it justify reincarnating six year old threads.

The currents of CMOMM keep flowing, we don't stand still, thus it's not helpful to rekindle old defunct subject matter.

Whilst here can I ask that you be very cautious about making accusations or suggestions about named persons, the forum is under constant watch, it's important to be mindful of this fact when posting unevidenced theory or opinion. To say nothing of an individuals privacy and integrity.

Until the next time ....

Verdi

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Post by Arnold 02.08.22 16:15

If Tony Bennett replies than there will be a next time.
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Post by Verdi 02.08.22 16:33

Arnold wrote:If Tony Bennett replies than there will be a next time.

This is an open forum Arnold, thus allowing all members to contribute to any given topic without restriction, that's to say your post should be addressed to the forum in general, not a specific member unless there is good reason, I see no good reason in this instance for you targeting one member.

There is no obligation for members to contribute if they feel they've nothing to offer.

As you are currently online, just to let you know I will now merge your posts.

howdy

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Post by Arnold 03.08.22 11:46

Hemoglobin described on May 13 2022 accidental death, which secondary drowning also is called. 

This possibility is overlooked by everybody.

 Calling this possibility a baseless theory in this simple case shows how corrupt the human mind is.

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Your reply to Hemoglobin, also a new member, was quite different.

As a forum manager and gatekeeper it looks like you have a hidden agenda. 


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Well, enjoy your role in this global hoax.



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Post by Verdi 03.08.22 12:45

Arnold wrote:Hemoglobin described on May 13 2022 accidental death, which secondary drowning also is called. 

This possibility is overlooked by everybody.

 Calling this possibility a baseless theory in this simple case shows how corrupt the human mind is.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


Your reply to Hemoglobin, also a new member, was quite different.

As a forum manager and gatekeeper it looks like you have a hidden agenda. 


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Well, enjoy your role in this global hoax.



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A hidden agenda big grin ?

I couldn't hide a needle in a haystack, I'd be too anxious in case the poor little needle was lost forever.

I'm sorry if you feel you were singled out.  Please don't let that slight misunderstanding drive you away.

thumbsup

NB: I'm impressed how quickly you've mastered forum tools, it takes some members years - if ever!

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Post by Milo 04.08.22 4:23

Help

I can't find my million-word response on this topic
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Post by Arnold 04.08.22 7:25

This thread is based on an incident that happened on Thursday morning May 3 2007 which is not mentioned in the PJfiles nor in CMOMM’s archive of the complete mystery of Madeleine McCann.


A crucial question needs an straight answer otherwise this never investigated scenario can be removed.

Was there a sailing incident at sea between 10.30am - 11.00am where Madeleine launched herself into Atlantic ocean to save the straw
hat of Jessica Berry or not ?
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Post by crusader 04.08.22 8:03

There is no evidence to suggest this incident took place, Neil Berry said this happened in the Netflix documentary.

Kate never mentioned Madeleine arriving at crèche to pick up a wet through Madeleine.

Even if Madeleine did dive into the sea to retrieve a straw hat, what would that have to do with the McCann's covering it up?

If Madeleine had died under these circumstances, there would be no reason to hide her body.
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Post by Arnold 04.08.22 11:16

So you assume that Jessica Berry's memory produced a lie.


I didn’t watch the Netflix documentary. Why should I when it’s based on a wrong timeline. I read about it in several newspaper articles published in 2019. That’s also when I saw the parachute photo, made on Sunday April 29 2007. I know the so called ‘last’ photo was also made on Sunday. 

The covering up is related to secondary drowning which took place more than 3 hours after the incident. Two symptons were many times mentioned by Kate. She had to carry Madeleine from the pool area to 5A during lunchtime because she was very tired and exhausted as Kate due to the activities that morning she stated. Gerry was also present and walked to 5A.
Maybe you should read about secondary drowning, the symptoms and the possible fatal consequences if you don’t call an ambulance, because she needed oxygen to survive. 

Instead her parents, being doctors, put her in bed. That is the worst thing one can do after inhaling water. Laying down is forbidden.
The twins were brought to the crèche and Kate said to Cat Baker, the nanny, that she would bring Madeleine later. She didn’t cause Madeleine’s physical condition worsened faster. Lack of oxygen caused her sudden and unexpected death. 
Being doctors, I assume they tried to save her life, but failed.
So they made fatal medical mistakes.

An autopsy would have made that clear.  Their careers, their parental
negligence  and their future were at stake. 

In this scenario she died around 2.30pm Thursday afternoon.

The PJfiles show the aftermath of an and the involvement of their friends to covering up her accidental death as secondary drowning is also called.

So there was no abduction, no murder, no fatal accident in 5A. 

Her death was a tragic event which cause was overlooked by all who were involved in this investigation.

If you know the cause and time of her death you will understand why they behave and acted the way they did till today.

I call them grieving victim players. The grieving is genuine and true.
Their role is horryfying.



P
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Post by crusader 04.08.22 12:46

The only person who has ever mentioned Madeleine jumping into the sea is Neil Berry, who never mentioned it in any of his police statements.

I don't know what happened to Madeleine any more than you do, I do however think if Madeleine had jumped off the boat into the sea, the evidence would have been obvious.

If a = jumping off the boat leads to B = lethargy and hours later death by secondary drowning, experienced doctors would know the signs  and what to look out for.

That's always assuming they had been told Madeleine had jumped off the boat and that is why she was being returned to her parents wet through.

Madeleine was a much loved Daughter in my opinion, do you honestly believe if they had been told she had jumped in the sea and was showing symptoms of unusual tiredness, they would not have put 2 and 2 together and just put her to bed then left her for God knows how long?

If they did put her to bed and leave her knowing she was suffering from the effects of secondary drowning, that is manslaughter, is that what you think happened?
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Post by sandancer 04.08.22 13:08

Jessica Berry has never stated herself anything about the so called jumping into the sea incident , it came from her father who was not present so it's hearsay . 

Kate allegedly carrying Maddie back to  apartment was after high tea not at lunch time , according to Kate anyway no independent witnesses . 

Can you show us where  you get the information that Kate told Cat Baker  she would bring Maddie along later ? In Kate's " truthful " book they sit by the pool where she takes the so called " last photo " then take the children to their creche . 

Cat Baker in non of her statements makes any references to Maddie jumping in the sea to rescue a hat , not something that would be easily forgotten by anyone ! 

 " Was there a sailing incident at sea between 10.30 - 11.00 am where Madeleine launched herself into the Atlantic Ocean to save the straw hat of Jessica Berry or not? " 

No , simple answer . I will put imho though .

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Post by Verdi 04.08.22 13:37

Milo wrote:Help

I can't find my million-word response on this topic

Allow me .... censored

spam

hat

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Post by Verdi 04.08.22 13:48

Arnold wrote:A crucial question needs an straight answer otherwise this never investigated scenario can be removed.

Was there a sailing incident at sea between 10.30am - 11.00am where Madeleine launched herself into Atlantic ocean to save the straw
hat of Jessica Berry or not ?

The answer to that straight question is no - and that's an emphatic no!

If any evidence, even a hint, can be produced to support this theory then it might be worthy of further thought.  Until such time, which I can say with certainty will never happen, your theory is not worthy of attention.

A mention of the alleged incident shown on the Netflix documentary many years down the line, does not constitute valid evidence.

We've been this way before, you can regurgitate your theory until the cows come home but alas, it won't make it any more believable.

howdy

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Post by Arnold 04.08.22 14:35

There is a £5000 reward offered on the internet (Twitter) to the one who can irrefutable proof that the secondary drowning scenario is not true.

Kate and Gerry are very grateful for your endless loop support.

Enjoy your dead end investigation.

Gerry was smart enough to make not only three police forces but also you the blindfolded fools in this simple case.

CASE CLOSED.



They are dancing behind their front door.
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Post by crusader 04.08.22 15:16

I don't think they will be thanking you Arnold, you make them sound like imbecile's.

Stand and fight your corner if you think you are right, after all we are only blindfolded fools going around in circles and can't see what is so obvious to you.
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Post by Arnold 04.08.22 16:36

So no murder, no abduction, no wandering off, no fatal accident in 5A, no secondary drowning (accidental death) 



So what are you investigating all those years ?

What happened to her ? 

Abducted by an alien ?

Taken by God ?

Madeleine is really banned from the beach despite the witnesses ( 2 nannies, at least two waterfront employees, David, Fiona, Rachel, Jane She went twice in the dinghy and yellow catamaran.  One with Ella, one with Jessica. 

Hearsay ? Baseless crap theory ? Ask Russell, he admitted in April 2008 that he didn’t see her in the crèche that afternoon. He had to stop lying. 

A reply from OJ.

  • Madeleine died of secondary drowning after a sailing incident at sea on Thursday, the day she disappeared. It was Jessica, the daughter of Neil Berry who was present when it happened, who told her dad. In 2019 this incident was mentioned in an interview about the last hours of Madeleine McCann. One can find it on the internet. It shows also a photo of Madeleine. The straw hat of Jessica was blown by the wind when the kids were on the catamaran and Madeleine launched herself in the water to get the straw hat. At that incident she swallowed water, she was rescued by a staff member one thing which makes this condition ( secondary drowning) so difficult to detect its slow acting nature.
    A victim may breath in a very small amount of fluid and believe she has succesfully expelled it though coffing.
    In reality the water may fill up some oxygen rich pores of the lungs reducing the lungs ability to oxygenate the blood passes through. The heart does not slow down appreciably during this proces. so the victim can still talk and walk.
    The only symptoms may be sudden change of personality or level of awareness as the blood oxygen level drops over time. vomiting or unvoluntary defecation immediately following a swimming ( or bath) session should be considered as a red flag. The symptons are coughing, chestpain, trouble breathing, feeling extremely tired ( as Madeleine was according to Kate McCann in several interviews and in her book) and lack of sleep.
    Secondary drowning can also come from something as simple as getting water in your mouth or getting dunked.
    If the symptoms don’t go away or if they get worse the urgent advice is to bring the child to an emergency room, not to your pediatrician’s office. chest XRay and IV and be admitted for observation. breathproblems needed a breathing tube for a while. He or she should be observed for several hours for signs of labored breathing and altered mental status.
    Death may occur between one or 48 hours! Cause of heartfallure.


    Gerry McCann and his wife are doctors who probably thought they could handle the unexpected situation in which they were confronted with very serious medical problems. Maybe they tried to resuscitate Madeleine but failed to save her life.
    The nanny of the children was moved by the mark Warner firm to Greece ten days after the disappearance.
    The sail instructor nor the safety boat employee and other waterfront employees, all from the UK, contracted by the firm were never formally interviewed by the Portugese police nor the MET except the nanny, but in the PJ files this sailing incident was never mentioned.
    Maybe it is time for the four members of Operation Grange to investigate the possibility of a secondary drowning as a cause of death. Till now all their efforts to solve this case are dead end streets.

    March 26, 2020
  • On Twitter you can see what I did.







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Post by Verdi 04.08.22 16:41

Methinks the enigmatic Netflix star, Neil Berry, got his wires crossed about the alleged boating incident.

I recall..

Matt Oldfield wrote:And so we went back down to the beach and took one of the cats out and we were out a bit longer than expected because part of the boat's strapping fell off and I fell off the back and so we got sort of stranded in the water and he didn't really know how to sail but managed to bring the boat round and I was sort of like a mile from shore thinking I'm going to have to swim all the way back or he's going to run me down with the boat, but he actually did really well and actually managed to pick me up on the back of the boat. Erm,

Jane Tanner wrote:Matt and Russ went down to the beach and I think they took a boat out, erm, Matt fell off the boat and nearly lost Matt off the side of the boat and we thought that would be the drama of the day

Russell O'Brien wrote:Well we, me and Matt had gone down to the beach to go on, as I say, Matt’s a good, quite a good sailor and we took one of the, the, erm, the catamarans out.  So we’d gone down, erm, just after lunch, probably after the kids had gone back to the Kids Club, so two, two o’clock, two or three o’clock, and had quite a long sail, erm, we were out for a long time, Matt sailed for a bit and then I sailed for a bit and he kind of gave me a bit of a lesson really.  Erm, as I said, he, he got bounced overboard and the kind of wire snapped and I had to learn quite quickly how to turn a catamaran round and not run someone over in the water with it.  So we pick, you know, we picked him back up, erm, a boat came back out and repaired, you know, kind of repaired the, the bit that had snapped, erm, it was the harness.

Rachell Oldfield wrote:Matt and Russell came in from their sail and Matt had fallen overboard and Russell had managed to go back and rescue him so, cos it was, it was quite windy and I think they were quite big waves and Matt couldn't see the boat and it was like, well this will be the story of the holiday, you know, the story to tell the grandchildren which is, you know which is what we said at the table at dinner that night, erm, erm,

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