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Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

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Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by coati mundi on 24.06.17 22:13

Was there any significance in the time and day the alarm was supposedly raised by KM? Given the panic and disarray that ensued that night, was the time the alarm was raised the "wrong time"? Should it have been, in the plan, raised earlier or later?

Also, although I don't completely agree with the earlier in the week theory, supposing that had happened, why wait until Thursday to fake the abduction?

Any ideas?

All IMO, etc.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by polyenne on 25.06.17 7:04

The story had to be concocted, rehearsed and remembered and the various damage-limitation assets needed to be mobilized.

Not sure what time the alarm was supposed to be raised but I do agree that Gerry's chance meeting with Jez threw a spanner in the works as I believe Gerry was "up that way" for a reason. His meeting meant that he couldn't do what he was meant to and also put him a few minutes adrift of where he should have been. That is why we have the Jane Tanner confusion.....

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Cmaryholmes on 25.06.17 7:32

B
@polyenne wrote:The story had to be concocted, rehearsed and remembered and the various damage-limitation assets needed to be mobilized.

Not sure what time the alarm was supposed to be raised but I do agree that Gerry's chance meeting with Jez threw a spanner in the works as I believe Gerry was "up that way" for a reason. His meeting meant that he couldn't do what he was meant to and also put him a few minutes adrift of where he should have been. That is why we have the Jane Tanner confusion.....
Yes, was Gerry on his way to jemmy/jammy the shutters? Maybe. IMO?

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by sharonl on 25.06.17 9:51

They were only there for a week and If it is correct that Madeleine died on 29th April and that the body was concealed, a clean up having taken place and abduction staged, then the alarm could not be sounded until all of that had taken place and it was safe to do so.

Then, given the pressure that they must have been under to conceal the absence of Madeleine and avoid being seen as a family of only four,  the alarm would have to sounded at the earliest convenience.  And of course, it could not be during the day when the kids were in crèche, it would have to be in the evening and when the parents were out, just to add some credibility to the abduction story.  They would have been quite keen to get it over with, and it seems that the media were waiting for the story to break.  Not to mention Jim Gambles' CEOP article and all the government officials who were already in PDL.

They only had 3 days of their holiday left, so once the everything was in place, why wait?  But, having said that, they did state that they were planning to settle over there.

Just my opinion, of course

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by nazech22 on 09.10.18 11:13

I also don't understand if MM died accidentally on the Sunday or Monday, then why wasn't her absence in the creche noted? The other thing that bothered me was whatever day it was of the holiday when Gerry was playing tennis til 6 and RO'B went to see KM in their apartment? Why Gerry tell him to go and check on Kate and their kids? Is it possible that Kate was suffering from PND and something happened between her and Madeleine that resulted in her death and coverup?
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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Verdi on 09.10.18 15:58

@nazech22 wrote:I also don't understand if MM died accidentally on the Sunday or Monday, then why wasn't her absence in the creche noted? The other thing that bothered me was whatever day it was of the holiday when Gerry was playing tennis til 6 and RO'B went to see KM in their apartment? Why Gerry tell him to go and check on Kate and their kids? Is it possible that Kate was suffering from PND and something happened between her and Madeleine that resulted in her death and coverup?
Question 1.  A good starting point is here, courtesy of HiDeHo, esteemed forum member and researcher.  There is divided opinion on the subject but the link gives a good idea of how members think the deception was, or could have been, acted out...

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14884-do-you-believe-something-happened-earlier-than-may-3rd-if-so-how-did-the-mccanns-manage-to-deceive-everyone-at-the-creche?highlight=the+creche

Question 2.  Unless you speak of another incident that's escaped my notice, I think you might be referring to David Payne and his alleged visit to Kate McCann on the evening of 3rd May 2007.  I've yet to see any convincing argument to verify this alleged visit, in my view it was invented to further reinforce the impression that Madeleine was alive and well on that evening.  

Question 3.  I can't comment on the state of Kate McCann's health.  From all appearances, she shows the same sociopathic tendencies as her husband.  I believe the conjugal public persona was all part of an act.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by sharonl on 09.10.18 18:35

@coati mundi wrote:Was there any significance in the time and day the alarm was supposedly raised by KM? Given the panic and disarray that ensued that night, was the time the alarm was raised the "wrong time"? Should it have been, in the plan, raised earlier or later?

Also, although I don't completely agree with the earlier in the week theory, supposing that had happened, why wait until Thursday to fake the abduction?

Any ideas?

All IMO, etc.

You find your 3 year old dead, or severely injured and at deaths door.  That is more than any parent could stand, it would take time to come to terms with that.  Remember, Kate lashed out at the bed and walls, argued with Gerry, why?  Was she inconsolable?

It would be impossible for any parent to come up with a plan and get rid of the evidence within a few hours, especially if they weren't in a normal state of mind following her death.

I cannot see how they could possibly overcome the shock, pull themselves together, clean up removing all traces of blood, re-arrange the furniture,  hatch a plan, stage the abduction, hide a cadaver, get the twins to bed and get themselves sitting calmly down to dinner as if nothing had happened, within a few hours.  


If the abduction was staged to a carefully thought out plan it would have taken time and clear minds.   


The McCanns were going home on Saturday so the alarm would have had to be sounded as soon as possible, but everything would have had to be put in place first,  clean up, hide Madeleine, agree a timeline, call for support etc.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Phoebe on 09.10.18 23:20

If Madeleine died on Sunday night, her parents' and their friends' subsequent behaviour must make them the most abnormal people in terms of both emotions and daring, and 9 superlative actors to boot!
When your child dies unexpectedly it is normal to feel shock and grief. How they continued with "life as normal" is beyond me.
Kate and Gerry turned up for the 16 tennis lessons they had booked (Dan and Georgina make no mention of them cancelling any). They went to fetch and deliver the kiddies at creche, mingling with other parents who spotted no signs of strain. Gerry even opted into Social Tennis with other guests. They joined the kiddies at high tea each day and took them to the playground (save for Thursday eve). They dined at the Tapas each night. 
How they all managed to pull this deception off from Sunday night until Thursday night, while they must have been shocked, grieving and on tenterhooks lest the ploy be exposed - defeats me.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Ruffian on 10.10.18 1:26

Why would they not simply say, went out, got in late, checked kids, all asleep, went to bed, not sure if we locked the door. woke up, Madeleine gone
Instead of neglect and abduction

To make your theory fit that MM died earlier in the week means many need to have known, a substitute child had to be produced and then hidden after the 3rd - The group also had to cover one dead child and one hidden substitute child.

All this had to have been planned and orchastrated within 2 days of arriving on a resort none of them had been on before.
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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by nazech22 on 10.10.18 5:51

Verdi - I beg my pardon....I did indeed mean David Payne visiting Kate, not Russell O'Brien. Silly me! 

Ruffian - that is interesting what you are saying. Why didn't they stage the abduction for later at night when they were all asleep in their beds? I guess even if they had done this, it would still have come out about their neglect of their children whilst dining out each night. BUT you would think it would've been easier in that they wouldn't have had to have different members of the Tapas 7 having to come up with their own stories and the subsequent discrepancies? They could've just made out they'd woken in the middle of the night to a strange noise and found MM gone and then gone about their staged abduction (without all these discrepancies in timelines of who checked kids and at what times and who they saw, etc).

If MM had indeed died on the Sunday or the Monday and if I was KM, I would just want to hide out in the apartment and mourn privately. Yet they both clearly went about the business of holidaying without giving anything away. I also don't understand how MM could've died on the Sunday and not been noticed by staff missing at the creche? Can anyone explain this?
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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Sundance on 10.10.18 9:02

@sharonl wrote:
Snipped: 
You find your 3 year old dead, or severely injured and at deaths door.  That is more than any parent could stand, it would take time to come to terms with that.  Remember, Kate lashed out at the bed and walls, argued with Gerry, why?  Was she inconsolable?

It would be impossible for any parent to come up with a plan and get rid of the evidence within a few hours, especially if they weren't in a normal state of mind following her death.

I cannot see how they could possibly overcome the shock, pull themselves together, clean up removing all traces of blood, re-arrange the furniture,  hatch a plan, stage the abduction, hide a cadaver, get the twins to bed and get themselves sitting calmly down to dinner as if nothing had happened, within a few hours.  

If we employ Occam's Razor, given the above parameters, it is way more likely that she was actually abducted. Therefore if neither happened, then we have another, supposedly more likely alternative - that she died earler in the week.
So again, by employing Occam's Razor to these two possibilities, taking in to account this from Phoebe:If Madeleine died on Sunday night, her parents' and their friends' subsequent behaviour must make them the most abnormal people in terms of both emotions and daring, and 9 superlative actors to boot!
When your child dies unexpectedly it is normal to feel shock and grief. How they continued with "life as normal" is beyond me.
Kate and Gerry turned up for the 16 tennis lessons they had booked (Dan and Georgina make no mention of them cancelling any). They went to fetch and deliver the kiddies at creche, mingling with other parents who spotted no signs of strain. Gerry even opted into Social Tennis with other guests. They joined the kiddies at high tea each day and took them to the playground (save for Thursday eve). They dined at the Tapas each night. 
How they all managed to pull this deception off from Sunday night until Thursday night, while they must have been shocked, grieving and on tenterhooks lest the ploy be exposed - defeats me.



......we are left with 'abduction' again, as being more 'likely'.
 I'm not subscribing to it by the way, but you can see why they garnered so much initial support and general acceptance of the narrative from the public (obviously with the help from their multitudinous friends and MSM)
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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Phoebe on 10.10.18 11:59

@ Sundance. IMO the four and a half hours between 5.30 and 10 p.m. ish would have been perfectly adequate to wash away a little blood, move a sofa and make a decision. I believe that is why David Payne's visit to 5A had to be invented!
 My initial gut feeling was that something was wrong by Thursday afternoon, however, I would need to see proof that Mark Harrison and the P.J. were mistaken in their acceptance that Madeleine had been seen up to 5.30 p.m. on May 3rd for this to be viable. Dr. Amaral was asked in a T.V. interview if he had considered an earlier time of death and replied that of course the police had done so, and that the first thing to establish in any missing persons investigation is when the victim was last confirmed alive.
My hunch about this (and that is all it is, for clarity) was formed by the decision of the Tapas 7 to take themselves and their children well away from the Ocean Club and to have the children eat at the Paraiso instead of partaking of the usual high tea. I also found it odd that this was the sole evening the McCann children did not go to the playground with the children of the Tapas 7 and other holidaymakers. Thursday was the sole evening that the McCanns could not claim that Madeleine had been seen by independent witnesses after tea.
I have grave doubts about anything happening much earlier in the week as, not only the McCanns and their friends, but also the various nannies would have to have been Oscar winning actors in order to sell the deception that they had seen Madeleine during the week to the police during questioning, all the while knowing they were lying.
26 mile marathons have been run in just 2hrs and 3 mins. Complex surgeries are carried out in mush less time. This, IMO, makes 4 and a half hours look positively generous, especially if there was a group helping out!

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Sundance on 10.10.18 12:13

@Phoebe, I've stated previously that Dr Amaral, the man who we virtually universally agree is unimpeachable and conducted an extremely thorough investigation, was adamant that she was verifiably alive up to 17.30. He pinned his whole reputation on it.
It's feasible that the 4.5 hour window was sufficient, but it certainly wasn't sufficient to weave an elaborate conspiracy, roping in multifarious protagonists to skillfully play their part and bolster the narrative - which may explain there was so much revisionism done 'on the hoof'.
I don't believe that something occurred earlier in the week. I think an awful event occurred that night, either discovered by or caused by Kate (as no mother, even one with supposed sociopathic tendencies would conspire with their husband if the roles were reversed, barring a case of domestic mental / physical abuse, which isn't apparent here) and quickly concealed right there. 
It's interesting to note that neither Kate nor Fiona (her bezzie) moved from the table until 10pm, whilst all the menfolk were rushing around like loons while their laungoustine were getting cold.
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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Verdi on 10.10.18 12:38

@nazech22 wrote: I also don't understand how MM could've died on the Sunday and not been noticed by staff missing at the creche? Can anyone explain this?

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14884-do-you-believe-something-happened-earlier-than-may-3rd-if-so-how-did-the-mccanns-manage-to-deceive-everyone-at-the-creche

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by sharonl on 11.10.18 20:07

@Phoebe wrote:If Madeleine died on Sunday night, her parents' and their friends' subsequent behaviour must make them the most abnormal people in terms of both emotions and daring, and 9 superlative actors to boot!
When your child dies unexpectedly it is normal to feel shock and grief. How they continued with "life as normal" is beyond me.
Kate and Gerry turned up for the 16 tennis lessons they had booked (Dan and Georgina make no mention of them cancelling any). They went to fetch and deliver the kiddies at creche, mingling with other parents who spotted no signs of strain. Gerry even opted into Social Tennis with other guests. They joined the kiddies at high tea each day and took them to the playground (save for Thursday eve). They dined at the Tapas each night. 
How they all managed to pull this deception off from Sunday night until Thursday night, while they must have been shocked, grieving and on tenterhooks lest the ploy be exposed - defeats me.

We don't really know what the McCanns were doing on Sunday and we only have their stories on what they did between Sunday and Thursday.

If what you say is correct and you believe that Madeleine died on May 3rd, then why were the McCanns out at the tapas looking perfectly normal on that evening?  They were hardly shocked or grieved, even at that point.  They were running & playing tennis days after reporting Madeleine missing, not to mention the visit to the Vatican and the Whitehouse.  And don't forget how elated they were on Madeleines' birthday. The only time I saw them stressed was when the became arguidos.  How can you say that they wouldn't be able to hide their grief if she had died earlier, but then say that they were at the tapas looking normal within hours? 

So, if they appeared to have got over this in a few hours, why could they not get over it in the more time available had she died sooner?

If they have pulled off this deception for 11 years, why not a few days?

Are the parents that you claim that they mingled with, independent witnesses?  Who are they?  Do you have a link to their official statements please?

Finally, if you believe that the McCanns would have appeared grief stricken for a period of time after Madeleine had died, then you cannot really say that she died just hours before the tapas meal when the McCanns appeared to be relaxed.  You have stated that you don't believe the death on April 29th scenario, which only leaves the McCanns version of events, that Madeleine was abducted late evening.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Tony Bennett on 11.10.18 21:27

Goodness me, there are some determined crusaders on here very deliberately determined to try and wreck, if they can, any theory which suggests that Madeleine died before 6pm on Thursday.

I think it would be a very good idea if each of them had a very good and long look at the Madeleine McCann Research Group article: "FOUR DAYS OR FOUR HOURS", and try to rebut that article, point by point, if they can. I doubt whether any of the crusaders has seen it; if they have, they are clearly deliberately ignoring it.

LINK:
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t14704-planning-the-abduction-hoax-was-it-done-over-four-days-or-four-hours

The four crusaders have been extremely naive, misleading and downright stupid in much of what they have written.

I will just take Ruffian's short and silly post, where s/he claims that the 'earlier death' theory requires a substitute and all sorts of people to lie and change crèche records etc.

I have made this point many times and will make it once again:

Who, by Sunday lunchtime, knew who Madeleine McCann was?

I will tell you.

The McCanns.

The Tapas 7.

Catriona Baker, Madeleine's crèche nanny, who almost certainly was known to the McCann family already.

And who else?

Can anyone on this forum tell me with certainty of ANYONE ELSE who actually knew who Madeleine McCann was by, say, Sunday afternoon? I can think of no-one.

If Madeleine had 'disappeared' on Sunday afternoon, who, really, would know about it?

ANSWER: The McCanns,  the Tapas 7, Catriona Baker. And very possibly nobody else.


One other point. Phoebe spoke about 'the kids' all having tea with their parents late afternoon every week.

The alleged high tea on Thursday is so full of contradictions between the four witnesses that one cannot rely on any of their accounts. As for there being a 'high tea' on any of the other days of the week, please be kind enough to show us the evidence for that statement, Phoebe.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Verdi on 11.10.18 22:05

Jez Wilkins testimony - 7th May 2007

The following day there was a sombre atmosphere around the complex. I last saw Jerry and Kate on Saturday, 5th May 2007 about 4 pm or 5 pm. We were sitting by the pool. I walked over to Jerry and wanted to let him know that I was thinking about him. I shook his hand. He was quiet but wasn't crying. I thought it was brave of him and his wife to go to the pool. I said hello to Kate, I didn't know what to say in that situation. She looked really upset. That was the last time I physically saw Jerry and Kate.

 bigshock

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by sharonl on 11.10.18 22:46

If Madeleine was alive early evening on May 3rd, why would Kate McCann and David Payne need to make up a statement about his alleged visit to McCann apartment, claiming that he had seen her at tea time? Their statements did not tie up at all, at least one of them, probably both, were not being honest here.  They would only need to make up such a story to falsely claim that Madeleine was alive at that point.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Phoebe on 11.10.18 23:00

@ Tony Bennett, You state above  -


"Catriona Baker, Madeleine's crèche nanny, who almost certainly was known to the McCann family already." 

Could I ask for the EVIDENCE which proves that Cat. Baker was known to the McCanns BEFORE that holiday.
 I have seen it claimed that she was a Facebook friend of Jon Corners's daughter but A) have never seen the supporting evidence of this claim, and  B) I have never posted on Facebook (despite having to register for work reasons) as I was put off by multiple requests to befriend people I had never even heard of! So,even if the Facebook claim could be shown, it would not provide hard evidence that McCanns had ever had previous contact with Cat. Baker. 

I was not referring to High Tea on Thursday. I meant High Tea on all the other days. If the nannies (not just Cat) who claimed to have supervised Madeleine at tea each day were liars or wrong - who was the little girl they were minding each evening whom they believed to be Madeleine.

@ sharonl. As I understand it David Payne did not claim to have seen Madeleine at tea time on Thursday. He could not have made this claim as he and his children ( with the rest of the T7 were having tea at the Paraiso restaurant on Thursday May 3. He claimed to have seen Madeleine later that evening to prove that all was well in the McCann household just before the children's bedtime.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by sammyc on 12.10.18 0:16

@Phoebe wrote:If Madeleine died on Sunday night, her parents' and their friends' subsequent behaviour must make them the most abnormal people in terms of both emotions and daring, and 9 superlative actors to boot!
When your child dies unexpectedly it is normal to feel shock and grief. How they continued with "life as normal" is beyond me.
Kate and Gerry turned up for the 16 tennis lessons they had booked (Dan and Georgina make no mention of them cancelling any). They went to fetch and deliver the kiddies at creche, mingling with other parents who spotted no signs of strain. Gerry even opted into Social Tennis with other guests. They joined the kiddies at high tea each day and took them to the playground (save for Thursday eve). They dined at the Tapas each night. 
How they all managed to pull this deception off from Sunday night until Thursday night, while they must have been shocked, grieving and on tenterhooks lest the ploy be exposed - defeats me.
@Phoebe. This was a group of highly trained and intelligent Qualified Doctors. Qualified Doctors know what to do in an emergency, they HAVE to think on their feet, discuss with each other, ascertain, pros and cons, risk and assess ... I could go on but surely you can't believe said group of Doctors cannot leave emotions behind and deal with an emergency - for all their sakes.
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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Verdi on 12.10.18 0:48

There are documented heinous crimes committed throughout history where the perpetrator has continued with life as if nothing had happened.

It's human coping mechanism. 

Whichever way you look at it, whether Madeleine 'disappeared' any time on any day between Saturday 28th April and Thursday 3rd May - the parents and their friends showed no sign of raw emotion.

The whole affair was a masquerade designed to fool the investigation and the world - it worked to perfection!!!

Hence here we are 'probing' the case eleven + years down the line.  Looking for the truth, something the UK police have never tried.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by polyenne on 12.10.18 7:32

@ Tony Bennett
So who did the cleaner see going up the stairs to lunch at the Payne’s ?

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Tony Bennett on 12.10.18 8:51

@polyenne wrote:@ Tony Bennett
So who did the cleaner see going up the stairs to lunch at the Payne’s ?

The cleaner saw:

Gerry McCann
Kate McCann
Madeleine McCann
Sean McCann &
Amelie McCann.

This cleaner has given no evidence of having seen Madeleine again after Sunday lunchtime, the time the Last Photo was almost certainly taken if we go by the overwhelming evidence available.

As Lizzy 'HideHo' Taylor has patiently and admirably set out as the result of intensive research, and presented on CMOMM, not one subsequent sighting of  Madeleine was from a credible or independent witness.

If you think you can identify ONE credible and independent sighting of Madeleine after Sunday lunchtime (apart from the Make-Up Photo), please say what it is and give the link so that we can discuss it.

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by Tony Bennett on 12.10.18 9:14

@polyenne wrote:@ Tony Bennett
So who did the cleaner see going up the stairs to lunch at the Payne’s ?
The cleaner who was in the Ocean Club apartments at around 1.15pm to 1.30pm on Sunday, 29th April, saw the following members of the McCann family:

Gerry McCann
Kate McCann (or Kate Healy as I believe she was calling herself until then)
Madeleine McCann
Sean McCann &
Amelie McCann.

According to overwhelming evidence the 'Last Photo' was almost certainly taken no more than an hour or so later, and there are no other credible photos of Madeleine that week apart from (probably) the Make-Up Photo, likely taken on the Sunday afternoon.

The cleaner has given no evidence of having seen Madeleine McCann later in the week. Therefore her evidence is no evidence of her being seen alive after Sunday afternoon.

As CMOMM member Lizzy 'HideHo' Taylor has patiently researched, she cannot find one credible, independent 'sighting' of Madeleine for the rest of the week. That evidence, which took hundreds of hours of research, is available on this forum and I feel sure you must have read and digested it.

Therefore could you please tell me if you can find ONE genuinely independent and credible 'sighting' of Madeleine McCann later that week, and if you can, please give us the link so that we can discuss it.

____________________

Kate McCann, in her book 'madeleine', page 5: "Since 3 May 2007, there has undoubtedly been much going on behind the scenes we haven't known about and perhaps never will".  Goncalo Amaral: "We will know the truth about what happened to Madeleine when the MI5 files on her case are made public".   

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Re: Why was the alarm raised at the time it was? Any ideas

Post by skyrocket on 12.10.18 9:37

@polyenne - the cleaner sighting was at lunchtime on Sunday 29th.

@Phoebe - although it is difficult to believe that there was a concerted cover up being carried out from early on in the week, which included the nannies, I am convinced of it. If you compare the nanny statements they appear contrived and there are glaring (GLARING) irregularities.

For example, Shinead, who was responsible for the twins in Toddler2's, states:
She affirms that she saw Madeleine McCann once when she arrived during the week, but that she did not know, as the deponent was working only with the Toddler group;
. She did recognise the family, as she was responsible for the twins, children of the couple and siblings of Madeleine McCann;



And yet, we have Stacey, who was in charge of both Toddler groups stating this:
Knew the McCann family since 29th of April as they would drop off their toddlers, Sean and Amelie, in the Toddler Club;
--- From 29 April until 3 May she was with those children every day.
--- She also knew Madeleine as she would frequently come talk to her brother and sister when picked up by her parents;



If someone can explain to me how that is possible I will listen.



Based on the statements (and Mark Warner website info from 2007), the creche workers were responsible for their afternoon groups until 5.30pm at high tea when the nannies signed the children back over in to the parents care (i.e. their shifts ended). Shinead took the Mc twins to the covered area next to the tapas daily for their tea and remained with them. Similarly, the Minis (3-5 year olds) were taken to high tea in the same location, at the same time, by their nannies. Irrespective of whether Stacey is referring to the end of the morning or afternoon creche sessions, whatever she saw Shinead should have seen (particularly as Stacey states 'frequently'). Simple as that, and if you study the nanny statements carefully they are full of other apparently impossible/conflicting scenarios regarding Madeleine 'sightings'.



Then we have statements like this one from Stephen Carpenter:

DCF: Oh yes, not from there, it was even before Madeleine disappeared. Did you see them with Madeleine and the other two children'
.
SC: Humm...I don't remember what I said in my statement, I am not sure about this because when I think about the past, and I know that he was playing tennis and I imagine something different, that's why...humm I can't specify hours and dates.

DCF: Ok. If you can remember the occasion upon which you saw them, how was the children's behaviour'.

SC: Humm. I can't reply because I was not concentrating on this type of thing, that's why...hmmm, I cannot even reply to this.

DCF: No, but I was thinking from the point of view of common sense, after the disappearance of Madeleine, any doubt that you could have had.

SC: Oh, after the disappearance'

DCF: No, what I was thinking here was that after her disappearance, you would probably have reflected upon whether you saw anything.

SC: Hummm... I remember talking to Gerry, because I had to go and fetch I*** and they were playing in the small garden and he was (inaudible), I***** and I thought it was Maddie, I am not absolutely sure but
,


I find this a strange thing to say. He certainly isn't sure now (rogatory April 2008) and it sounds to me that he only assumed it was Madeleine at the time because she was with Gerry. Recognition by association - I do it all the time with children/parents/etc.

My opinion, for what it's worth but after multiple readings of the statements in question, is that as @HiDeHo/Tony and others have pointed out on many occasions, there is very little reliable evidence that Madeleine was around after the Sunday 29.

Getting back on topic - I believe that the alarm was raised twice. A false start at around 9.15pm just after the Carpenters had left the tapas restaurant, leaving no more witnesses to the proceedings there - the executive chef arriving moments later to see
only 3 couples sitting (together) on the tapas esplanade. Carolyn Carpenter thought she'd heard shouts of 'Madeleine' just before she entered her apartment across the road. At 9.40pm the exec chef sees an empty table but belongings still in place.

Incidently both Carpenter and the chef state that there were cars parked up from the reception - something Jane Tanner failed to mention (or draw) in her statement when describing how she had somehow managed to squeeze past to the left of Gerry on the pavement, or was it Jez
(depending on which dated statement you read), without either man seeing her. Let's be clear - Tanner says that on a pavement of about 1 metre (3 feet) width, she walks past a man (ON the pavement) and he doesn't see her approaching, passing or walking away. Not only that, but the man talking to the man on the pavement (and therefore one would have thought facing the pavement in some way) didn't see her either. What's the chances? Or perhaps the question should be: Why this storyline? The 'passing' was supposedly at around 9.15pm.

For some reason, whether it was the Wilkins encounter (who makes it clear that he isn't sure what time he met Garry between 8.45pm and 9.15pm) or something else, it appears from the statements(!) that the second alarm was then raised almost exactly an hour later. I do believe that there were 2 timelines running - hence the confusion with the reported times of witnesses hearing that a child was missing. Perhaps this confusion from the word go was also planned.


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