David Payne: McCann kids dressed in white like angels

[tara]

I was reading David Payne's statement 11.04.2008, 00:01:48, in which he refers to calling in on Kate McCann on the evening of May3rd, 2007, and he describes seeing 'the three McCann children....in their pyjamas....you know they were just like ANGELS ...the night attire...WHITE was the predominant colour.' What came into my mind upon reading this was Peter Hyatt's statement analysis: the words 'angels' and 'white' are an interesting choice.

[plebgate]

Yes, I enjoyed seeing Peter Hyatt's statement analysis and definitely gave me food for thought. 

I am hoping Hobs will be posting any thoughts if there is a tenth year annivesary interview.

[Phoebe]

I've just nagged someone who works in child protection but has zero interest in the Madeleine case to watch some of "Buried by mainstream media". When the section where Richard D.Hall provides a voice-over of David Payne's rogatory statement ended she paused the program and asked if there was any question of paedophilia. I was taken aback as she knows little about the case and has never heard of the Gaspars. In her opinion his statement had several red flags. Apparently, repeated stressing of how happy children are is a warning sign, not for physical abuse but for sexual, as many molesters are privately obsessed with the notion that their actions do not distress children. She also flagged the reference about "angels". I had thought it might have been a Freudian slip about death but she tells me it is very common for sexual abusers to fantasize about the purity and innocence of children and "angelic" is a frequently used term. She did say children are usually groomed over a period before eventual abuse and that if there was no continuous contact abuse on a more intrusive scale is unlikely. In her opinion D.P's language re children is of some concern.

[Verdi]

I've just nagged someone who works in child protection but has zero interest in the Madeleine case to watch some of "Buried by mainstream media". When the section where Richard D.Hall provides a voice-over of David Payne's rogatory statement ended she paused the program and asked if there was any question of paedophilia. I was taken aback as she knows little about the case and has never heard of the Gaspars. In her opinion his statement had several red flags. Apparently, repeated stressing of how happy children are is a warning sign, not for physical abuse but for sexual, as many molesters are privately obsessed with the notion that their actions do not distress children. She also flagged the reference about "angels". I had thought it might have been a Freudian slip about death but she tells me it is very common for sexual abusers to fantasize about the purity and innocence of children and "angelic" is a frequently used term. She did say children are usually groomed over a period before eventual abuse and that if there was no continuous contact abuse on a more intrusive scale is unlikely. In her opinion D.P's language re children is of some concern.

Interesting!

When David Payne talked of how happy the children looked, how they looked like angels all dressed in white, he was referring to the McCann children as a collective.

Tell me, did your 'child protection' source elaborate?  Did the red flag/s apply to one, two or all three children -  or was it only a generalisation about warning signs?  Was your source suggesting a possibility that all three children were being abused by this one person?

Personally, I don't believe David Payne made that visit to apartment 5a when he sai how happy and angelic they all looked - I believe it was another ruse to place a living, healthy, happy Madeleine at apartment 5a on Thursday 3rd May 2007, somewhere between 5.00 pm and 7.00 pm (depending which version you read).   Therefore his comments were pure invention.

[Phoebe]

I've just nagged someone who works in child protection but has zero interest in the Madeleine case to watch some of "Buried by mainstream media". When the section where Richard D.Hall provides a voice-over of David Payne's rogatory statement ended she paused the program and asked if there was any question of paedophilia. I was taken aback as she knows little about the case and has never heard of the Gaspars. In her opinion his statement had several red flags. Apparently, repeated stressing of how happy children are is a warning sign, not for physical abuse but for sexual, as many molesters are privately obsessed with the notion that their actions do not distress children. She also flagged the reference about "angels". I had thought it might have been a Freudian slip about death but she tells me it is very common for sexual abusers to fantasize about the purity and innocence of children and "angelic" is a frequently used term. She did say children are usually groomed over a period before eventual abuse and that if there was no continuous contact abuse on a more intrusive scale is unlikely. In her opinion D.P's language re children is of some concern.

Interesting!

When David Payne talked of how happy the children looked, how they looked like angels all dressed in white, he was referring to the McCann children as a collective.

Tell me, did your 'child protection' source elaborate?  Did the red flag/s apply to one, two or all three children -  or was it only a generalisation about warning signs?  Was your source suggesting a possibility that all three children were being abused by this one person?

Personally, I don't believe David Payne made that visit to apartment 5a when he sai how happy and angelic they all looked - I believe it was another ruse to place a living, healthy, happy Madeleine at apartment 5a on Thursday 3rd May 2007, somewhere between 5.00 pm and 7.00 pm (depending which version you read).   Therefore his comments were pure invention.

What I gathered from her (she's a senior child protection worker and guardian ad litem) was that she suspected Payne's view of all children was skewed and that when put under pressure re this visit to Kate his natural, or should that read unnatural? attitude to children slipped out. I actually found her insights fascinating. Something else she picked up on was his response when asked how well he knew Madeleine (got her to read another bit of his statement and filled her in a bit). She felt his account of physical contact re the "picking her up and whizzing her round" was also a flag. Normally, according to her, when asked if he knew a child well, a man would respond "Yes certainly, I've known her since she was very young. Our families see quite a bit of each other. She's quite friendly with my daughter and would be very comfortable with me as I'm L's daddy". She thought it telling that his measure of knowing a child automatically made him recall physical contact with her. Dunno what to make of it. I told her I was finding it hard to believe "respectable" parents might be iffy in that way and she told me if they weren't she'd be out of a job! Sad world we live in.

[sandancer]

I find​ it interesting that someone who​ works in child protection​ should have zero interest in the​ Madeleine McCann case . When it's been the biggest​ issue talked​ about​ regarding the alleged​ " neglect " .

However​ her reaction​ to Richard's film and David​ Payne's statement​ about " angels" etc​ comes​ from an unprejudiced angle as well​ as a professional​ one .

I sometimes​ wonder about Yvonne Martin who was so​ quickly​ dismissed​ both on the 4th and in the " bewk " and if she has​ kept​ up to date​ and maybe felt she could have done more​ . I know she worked in the North East it did​ cross my mind if D.P has any connections​ to the area ? 
Just a thought​ !

I hope you stay in touch Phoebe​ to see​ if she has anything more​ to add.

[Phoebe]

She swallowed the whole abduction/ sloppy police story at the time and tut tutted over negligence. Its gas though, the same woman could tell you chapter and verse of the Stephen Avery case (which she's set me onto now)  

[Verdi]

I find​ it interesting that someone who​ works in child protection​ should have zero interest in the​ Madeleine McCann case . When it's been the biggest​ issue talked​ about​ regarding the alleged​ " neglect " .

However​ her reaction​ to Richard's film and David​ Payne's statement​ about " angels" etc​ comes​ from an unprejudiced angle as well​ as a professional​ one .

I find it unbelievable!

Payne's alleged visit to apartment 5a late afternoon/early evening on Thursday 3rd May 2007 is also unbelievable, or at best doubtful.  His comment about the three children looking happy healthy white and angelic has raised many an eyebrow - you don't need to be a professional in child care to question his inappropriate choice of words, visit or no visit.

From a professional angle, I would expect Richard D Hall's 'Embedded Confession' video would be more interesting than 'Buried By Mainstream Media', after all, that's the thrust of the professional's opinion - the words used by Payne.

All said and done, Payne wasn't able to be precise about the timing of the alleged visit to apartment 5a.  Five minutes here and there is nothing but two hours?

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The Persistence of Memory - Salvador Dali

[Phoebe]

Ah well Verdi, I found it interesting anyway and thought I'd share it. I don't believe Payne's visit ever occurred. I thought all his talk about happy angelic children sprang from nothing more than a desire to paint a picture of what a good mother Kate was, as well of course, as witnessing Madeleine alive and well that evening. I seem to be the only one of my friends and acquaintance who has continued to keep any interest the McCann saga. For most of them, including this lady, the story they believe is of parental neglect which allowed a child to be abducted a long time ago. All believe she was killed by her abductor and is unlikely to be found. For them, other things are more important, pressing and current. I'm retired and have time to indulge my interest. They are flat-out at work and with families and don't feel it's anything to do with them. There are many unsolved missing persons cases here in our own county too, some involving children and they haven't shown a desire to explore them further either.

[Verdi]

For them, other things are more important, pressing and current. I'm retired and have time to indulge my interest. They are flat-out at work and with families and don't feel it's anything to do with them. There are many unsolved missing persons cases here in our own county too, some involving children and they haven't shown a desire to explore them further either.

That's a bit like a broker on the London stock exchange ignoring the collapse of Bundesbank because he's busy with the school run or the in-laws are in town!  It's instinctive for human beings to tune-in to something that relates to their particular profession or experiences in life or field of interests, you can't just switch-off, nature won't allow.

The case of Madeleine McCann has been splashed across the UK headlines for nigh on ten years, you can't ignore it - it won't go away!  It's not just an unsolved case of a ''missing person', it's the mysterious disappearance of a three year old little girl with evidence pointing accusingly at the parents.  An establishment conspiracy turned into a multi-million pound industry by the more avaricious.

Had it been all about the parents and their friends, as they would have you believe, global interest in the case would have waned long ago but it's not is it.  At the heart of the conspiracy is a little lost voiceless child who will never see another spring, never blossom with the seasons.
 

[roz]

Kate - “At around six forty, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio doors and I heard David’s voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me I stepped into the sitting room.”
Kate (book) - “David had popped his head round the patio doors looking for me,”
Why I do not believe that this ‘visit’ occurred;
In order to have a shower, any parent would have locked that patio door first before leaving 3 young children alone in the sitting room.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]       
Lily P (younger than Madeleine) is shown in a photo being able to reach the patio door handle in what I presume is the Payne’s apartment.

[Jill Havern]

Kate - “At around six forty, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio doors and I heard David’s voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me I stepped into the sitting room.”
Kate (book) - “David had popped his head round the patio doors looking for me,”
Why I do not believe that this ‘visit’ occurred;
In order to have a shower, any parent would have locked that patio door first before leaving 3 young children alone in the sitting room.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]       
Lily P (younger than Madeleine) is shown in a photo being able to reach the patio door handle in what I presume is the Payne’s apartment.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Does she look as though she couldn't open a patio door?

[roz]

I actually had the twins in mind also. Lily is I believe about 6 months older than them.

[suzyjohnson]

For them, other things are more important, pressing and current. I'm retired and have time to indulge my interest. They are flat-out at work and with families and don't feel it's anything to do with them. There are many unsolved missing persons cases here in our own county too, some involving children and they haven't shown a desire to explore them further either.

That's a bit like a broker on the London stock exchange ignoring the collapse of Bundesbank because he's busy with the school run or the in-laws are in town!  It's instinctive for human beings to tune-in to something that relates to their particular profession or experiences in life or field of interests, you can't just switch-off, nature won't allow.

Unless, of course, as I suspect, this social worker is already overloaded with cases already. It's only possible to take so much on board, if you didn't switch off at times, you'd probably go mad.

[suzyjohnson]

Kate - “At around six forty, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio doors and I heard David’s voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me I stepped into the sitting room.”
Kate (book) - “David had popped his head round the patio doors looking for me,”
Why I do not believe that this ‘visit’ occurred;
In order to have a shower, any parent would have locked that patio door first before leaving 3 young children alone in the sitting room.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]       
Lily P (younger than Madeleine) is shown in a photo being able to reach the patio door handle in what I presume is the Payne’s apartment.

I can't believe anyone could take a shower leaving three young children alone in the lounge in any case, the havoc they could wreak within 10 or 15 minutes .... accidents, falling out, fighting, crying, calling for their mother, spilt drinks, food everywhere, ripped books, wet clothing, climbing ..... you can't take your eyes off two year olds for two minutes. And then in walks David Payne and says they were all in white like angels?

[Philip Anders]

Ah well Verdi, I found it interesting anyway and thought I'd share it. I don't believe Payne's visit ever occurred. I thought all his talk about happy angelic children sprang from nothing more than a desire to paint a picture of what a good mother Kate was, as well of course, as witnessing Madeleine alive and well that evening. I seem to be the only one of my friends and acquaintance who has continued to keep any interest the McCann saga. For most of them, including this lady, the story they believe is of parental neglect which allowed a child to be abducted a long time ago. All believe she was killed by her abductor and is unlikely to be found. For them, other things are more important, pressing and current. I'm retired and have time to indulge my interest. They are flat-out at work and with families and don't feel it's anything to do with them. There are many unsolved missing persons cases here in our own county too, some involving children and they haven't shown a desire to explore them further either.

Before I retired, the McCanns were the constant talk on building sites, in factories & wherever I went for several years after 2007.

I too haven't shown any interest in the many other missing children cases because I haven't been told anything about them.

[plebgate]

Kate - “At around six forty, as I was drying myself off, there was a knock on the patio doors and I heard David’s voice calling me. Swiftly wrapping my towel around me I stepped into the sitting room.”
Kate (book) - “David had popped his head round the patio doors looking for me,”
Why I do not believe that this ‘visit’ occurred;
In order to have a shower, any parent would have locked that patio door first before leaving 3 young children alone in the sitting room.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]       
Lily P (younger than Madeleine) is shown in a photo being able to reach the patio door handle in what I presume is the Payne’s apartment.

I can't believe anyone could take a shower leaving three young children alone in the lounge in any case, the havoc they could wreak within 10 or 15 minutes .... accidents, falling out, fighting, crying, calling for their mother, spilt drinks, food everywhere, ripped books, wet clothing, climbing ..... you can't take your eyes off two year olds for two minutes. And then in walks David Payne and says they were all in white like angels?

Would any parents believe that three children of that age could be left alone whilst taking a shower.   The noise of the water for a start would prevent anyone from hearing what was going on so how would anyone know that their three children were all behaving themselves like little angels and then these three ever so well behaved children were put to bed and all went to sleep on cue enabling mummy and daddy to go and meet their friends for dinner.   All of the friends children also happen to have been able to be in bed and asleep on cue too.   My oh my I have never come across such wonderfully, well behaved children ever - not even in my dreams.

If they had charged £50 for their tips on how to do it they wouldn't have needed to start up a fund they would have been multi - millionaires.  They could always set a website and charge for their tips now - what's stopping them - I certainly would.  lol.

[liars a to e]

David Payne strikes me as a most unwilling and unhappy witness. Firstly he makes that phone call on the 4th May. Then his interview from 10/11 May is retained by the PJ. Wonder what he said? Hot on the heels of that was the Gasper statement though that was held back. Then it appears that the Payne family returned to Portugal in July. Again these interviews are retained by the PJ. Then his statement about everything goes through Gerry - he didn't want to get involved at that stage...

But it is Inthe rogatory that he most shows his unwillingness and how uncomfortable he is. Twice when questioned about the time the alarm was raised he makes it very clear how he didn't believe it. Reading between the lines the message is - I didn't believe it but they were acting like it had happened so I have to believe it I suppose. Then his description of the visit to the apartment is so uncomfortable and questionable. Of course by the time of the rogatory - the incentive in the shape of the Gasper statements had been delivered to the PJ. And finally he talks of the other forum where he might raise other issues. I guess that forum could be a witness box.

Since then the Payne's were shown only in very soft focus in the Crime watch recon. Dianne Webster was also unbelieving in the first interviews even trying the shutters and categorically not seeing Matthew. At the rogatory she remains unwilling - forgetting details allows her to not say anything she does not want to say.

This view relies somewhat on viewing the Gasper statements as not being as straightforward as they seem - but I do pick up some dissent from the statements of the Payne's.

[liars a to e]

I forgot to add the video...the video of Madeleine going up the steps and on the airport bus. It was David Payne's video and it doesn't really portray GM very favourably with the f off and all. If it had been released solely as a last video that would have been edited out. But it came out warts and all. Which suggests a little animosity from the person who released it perhaps?

[Verdi]

David Payne strikes me as a most unwilling and unhappy witness.

Au contraire - he was more than willing! 

Firstly he makes that phone call on the 4th May.

What phone call?

Then his interview from 10/11 May is retained by the PJ. Wonder what he said?

David Payne wasn't interviewed on 10th/11th May 2007

Hot on the heels of that was the Gasper statement though that was held back. Then it appears that the Payne family returned to Portugal in July. Again these interviews are retained by the PJ. Then his statement about everything goes through Gerry - he didn't want to get involved at that stage...

Explain ?

But it is Inthe rogatory that he most shows his unwillingness and how uncomfortable he is. Twice when questioned about the time the alarm was raised he makes it very clear how he didn't believe it. Reading between the lines the message is - I didn't believe it but they were acting like it had happened so I have to believe it I suppose.

Explain ?

Then his description of the visit to the apartment is so uncomfortable and questionable.

How so?

Of course by the time of the rogatory - the incentive in the shape of the Gasper statements had been delivered to the PJ.

Explain ?

And finally he talks of the other forum where he might raise other issues. I guess that forum could be a witness box.

Davie Payne did not speak 'of the other forum where he might raise other issues'!

Since then the Payne's were shown only in very soft focus in the Crime watch recon.

David Payne was not featured in the 2013 Crimewatch re-enactment.

Dianne Webster was also unbelieving in the first interviews even trying the shutters and categorically not seeing Matthew. At the rogatory she remains unwilling - forgetting details allows her to not say anything she does not want to say.

What?

This view relies somewhat on viewing the Gasper statements as not being as straightforward as they seem - but I do pick up some dissent from the statements of the Payne's.

Not straightforward - how so?  What dissent do you pick up from the Payne statements?

[liars a to e]

Hi Verdi. I didn't mean to be cryptic but I also have not much time to be typing away. This is just an alternative opinion but it is an impression I get that DP and his family had some doubts about it all but these doubts were suppressed.
Q1 the 100 sec phone call to special branch/child protection.
Q2 no interview was released but I am surprised if there wasn't one - all the others were interviewed again on those days why not DP? Certainly there is an interview with him we have not seen as it is referred to in the email that accompanied the Gasper statement
Q3 An alternative view is the Gasper statement was made by very helpful McCann friends. What better incentive to toe the line than the threat of being exposed as being dodgy around children? I think it came pretty early in the investigation 15 May - there was no public indication that DP was involved so why make the statement?
Q4 in the rogatory he does mention a few times that he just couldn't believe it and was talking to Kate about that as they rushed back to the apartment. Just offering a different opinion on why that was said
Q5 I think most on this forum have doubts about the Payne visit to the apartment. This could be for a number of reasons one of which could be being DP being very uncomfortable about making this statement.
Q6 As above. They may have been held back by LP as they coincided with Murat being questioned and were deemed by LP to be not relevant at that point.
Q7 Re the question about the material truth in the rogatory - he doesn't mention another forum you are correct but mentions that this one ( the rogatory) is not it.
Q8 Well they were "featured" as "three others who sit at the table" - but that is it.
Q9 in an early statement DW says she tried the shutters and they would not open from the outside? Why drop that in the interview when that is the way the abductor came in? At this stage she is not singing off the same sheet as everyone else that is for sure. In the rogatory she cannot remember JT leaving the table until she went to relieve ROB. If the rogatory answers were to a predetermined script but the person wants to tell the truth "I cannot remember" is much safer to say then "JT didn't leave the table twice" or "JT did leave the table twice."
So these are little nuggets within the Payne statements which jar with the other statements - you could of course take the view that this all adds to the confusion (confusion is good) - but they stick out to me above some of the other inconsistencies.
All opinion through - I have read so much about this case - seen all the videos- and still cannot get any further than the dog evidence. So I am just turning the telescope the other way round as it were to see if another way of looking at things turns up something not yet discussed. So the key question would be what if the Gaspers statements are not as straightforward as they seem?

[Phoebe]

Vol. XIII, Pages 3909-3915 

To: Ricard Paiva - Polícia Judiciária
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL - Leicester Police Constabulary
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

Ricardo,

As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.

I read carefully the written statements given by David Payne but was not able to extract any other information besides what is already known.

He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann’s apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. Similarly he does not indicate for how long he stayed.

When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and he cannot remember if anyone else was there.

He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon.

He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield.

He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters. 

For many of the questions, he does not give a complete answer, affirming simply that he has already given this information/declaration to the Portuguese police.

I examined again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states that 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to, if to Gerry or her own husband.

Her responses to the written questionnaire are vague, given that, she continues to answer to the questions with “they conform to my earlier deposition” or some similar statement.

Is this referring to an extra written statement by David Payne? It is dated 24th Oct. 2007 so not his statement of 4/5/07 and before his rogatory interview of April 11th 2008? Does anyone remember a rumour that a tapas couple, allegedly Paynes wished to alte/ amend their statements?

[liars a to e]

Hi thanks. Here he is paraphrasing a statement from DP I think a statement that is not published anywhere else. As regards Fiona this is either a statement not seen or a misinterpretation of her early statement to the PJ where she says she went back to the (her Fiona's) apartment with her ( Fiona's) mother where the husband ( DP) returned ten minutes later. Might be a translation issue there with the early statement either with me reading the PJ files translation wrong or LP reading it wrong. The written questionnaire is unseen as well.

[liars a to e]

Also worth noting is that in the Truth of the lie the white angels description is mentioned which means that either Amaral had access to the rogatory interviews or DP had already made a statement with the white angelic children described in it. A statement not published.
In Gerry's blog he refers to friends coming over to give further statements in July I think and it was reported in a Portuguese newspaper that they were "changing Thier statements". There were - according to the newspaper- three of them.

[Verdi]

13-Processos Volume XIII, Pages 3909-3915

Document missing from DVD: Processo Volume XIII, Page 3909. In a memorandum dated 24 October 2007 (Processo Volume XIII, Page 3909) reference is made to a document written by Dr David Payne which document had been read carefully by British Detective Constable Mike Marshall, the author of the memorandum. The document written by Dr Payne is not in the DVD.

13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3909 [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] 13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3910 To: Ricard Paiva From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL Ref: David Payne Date: October 24, 2007 Leicester Police Constabulary Ricardo, As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar. "I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne." but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed. When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and cannot remember if anyone else was there. He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon. He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield. He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters. For many questions, he does not give a complete response, affirming simply that he has already given this information to the Portuguese police in his declarations. I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to. Her responses to the questions are vague. She continued to respond to questions with "they conform with my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.