Madeleine McCann could not have died from an accident, nor from anything else, after 5.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007

worriedmum wrote:I have said this before, but the 'transference' of cadaver odour theory should surely mean that everything that came in contact with anything contaminated would then spread it endlessly-wouldn't it?

Technically yes, of course you are correct.   The strength of the scent would naturally differ depending on various factors which is pretty obvious but not relevant at the moment.

The personal items belonging to the McCann family collected from their accommodation (the villa) to be taken to another location for inspection by the dogs, Eddie and Keela, were boxed up and marked according to the room they were supposedly kept.  The particular box that contained the items signaled by the EVRD Eddie was marked 'common room'.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the rest of the content of the box was ever itemized.

It's important to remember here that prior to the dogs inspection of the content of the boxes, they had also been deployed to inspect apartment 5a at the Ocean Club complex, the second apartment occupied by the McCanns short term and the villa they rented for their long term stay.  During these prior inspections, the only personal item belonging to the McCann family that was signaled by Eddie the EVRD was...  CUDDLECAT!

This leads to me believe that cuddlecat is the answer to the cadavar scent cross-contamination - it would certainly explain why only Kate McCann's clothing was signaled and why poor old cuddlecat was subjected to a thorough scrub. The important point is however, that ONLY cuddlecat was signaled by Eddie prior to the independent inspection of personal items.

Are you reading me?

What puzzles me is the absence of a trail of evidence following the dogs inspection of the clothing on 2nd August 2007.  The PJ case file states..

Report: 27 Rue das Floras- Praia Da Luz - Lagos  [villa occupied by the McCann family]

'The canine human remains recovery dog started its inspection and "marked" various clothes. The inspection was completed at 23h52. The clothes were returned to their box for later use.'

Martin Grimes reports in his summary of the exercise..

"The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ ofíicers present.
 
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'a cadaver scent' contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
----------

As far as I'm aware, this is where the trail begins and ends, there being no further mention of the items of clothing marked by Eddie the EVRD following the search of the villa occupied by the McCann family.  Ideally I would like to believe the items were sequestered by the PJ and held in their custody pending further investigation.  However, as far as I'm aware, there is no indication in the PJ files that cuddlecat or the two pieces of clothing belonging to Kate McCann or the red T-shirt (most likely belonging to the male twin) were analysed by a forensic laboratory in Portugal or the UK.  Clearly Kate McCann's harlequin pants were returned to her as she was photographed wearing them as she descended from the aircraft on their return to the UK in September 2007 - clutching cuddlecat!

Sean McCann was photographed wearing the red T-shirt with airplane motif but I can't be sure if that was before and after the dogs inspection on 2nd August.  Not sure it has any particular significance anyway as the T-shirt would appear to be for a boy.  I think it most likely the cadavar scent alerted by Eddie was by way of transference rather than having been in direct contact with a corpse.

Does anyone know the origin of this?



The only link I can find is Joana Morais written in Portuguese so I'm at a total loss.  Whatever, if this is what it appears to be, it shows a pair of pyjamas as opposed to the red T-shirt.

You are spot on. I can’t phantom that the McCanns are so cold, heartless, psychotic as to find their daughter dead and their first instinct is to figure how to get rid of her. I believe they, mostly Kate grieved and held Madeline, hence the cadaver scent on her checked pants, and then plotted, probably  at Gerry’s insistence, to get rid of Madeleine and make it out to be an abduction.

There's a strange tweet from Pat Brown.





I am unclear why Pat believes that this could not have happened on Sunday 29th, and the body discovered early morning Monday 30th, and 'hidden' elsewhere, in the Tennis bag, then elsewhere with the bag returned to the shelf to do its work.
We do know that however 'unlikely' it might seem, there are numerous cases of bodies having been hidden in very strange places for very long periods of time.  Even moving them around as Kate's favourite case Wisconsin -v- Zapata showed.

The third observation is very probably correct, but only in isolation from the other two.
We can envisage the scene with the mother, Kate, is beside herself with grief, cuddling her dead child and transferring the cadaverine to her own clothes and to cuddle-cat, whilst the father went into full self-preservation mode, organising tennis bags, making phone calls and longer term plans.
That cannot have been before dinner on Thursday 3/5/7

I believe they, mostly Kate grieved and held Madeline, hence the cadaver scent on her checked pants

I don't go along with that.

Who, in their right mind, would continue to wear the same clothing day after day - even if washed.


9th September 2007

Pat Brown is stuck with her initial thoughts. Pat Brown continues to promote her initial thoughts.

I don't mind that, and when we spent the time in PdL together it was interesting how we came from
different 'perspectives'.  She a profiler, me a long-since detective and investigator.
I was concerned first with What and When and How, leading to Who and Why
Pat with Who and How and Why, leading back to What and When

That is a crude oversimplification, obviously.

What concerns me is the fallacious argument

If A then B – followed by the non sequitur argument because you are not allowed to consider C

And there is the further issues that any intelligent person, during interview or at any other time
should be open to new information, and prepared to change their mind when presented with compelling new evidence or reasoning.

The days of "I don't care what you say – I'll never believe X or Y"
or "don't confuse me with facts.  My minds is made up" are surely a generation behind us
(except in Politics, obviously.)

Even the UK Police can "Neither Confirm or Deny" Martin Grimes Crime dogs findings,Eddie, Keela, Operation Grange,DCS Andy Redwood, former Assistant Commander, Metropolitan Police service, Mark Rowley, Sir Bernard Hogan Howe?

The Metropolitan Police are still looking for an Alive Madeleine McCann using tracker dogs in Algarve, Portugal, why?

Now why would that be the case, "Ask the Dogs, Sandra"?

Hi Liz Eagles.

Have the Metropolitan Police Service, Operation Grange, "Confirmed or Denied", what Martin Grimes crime dogs,eddie,keela alerted to?

Meredyd Hughes had specific telephone conversations with Mr McCann, as revealed on this forum?

Liz, do you think there is a "Cover Up" as to what might have happened to Madeleine McCann?

willowthewisp wrote:Hi Liz Eagles.

Have the Metropolitan Police Service, Operation Grange, "Confirmed or Denied", what Martin Grimes crime dogs,eddie,keela alerted to?

Meredyd Hughes had specific telephone conversations with Mr McCann, as revealed on this forum?

Liz, do you think there is a "Cover Up" as to what might have happened to Madeleine McCann?

I'm afraid that I can't answer you until you attempt to write correctly.

It's Martin Grime by the way and not Grimes.

hi Liz Eagles, was it a coincidence that an earlier post suddenly vanished, after all you can only delete your own posts?

Your's sincerely, not writing correctly.

willowthewisp wrote:hi Liz Eagles, was it a coincidence that an earlier post suddenly vanished, after all you can only delete your own posts?

Your's sincerely, not writing correctly.

Another thread disrupted by yourself willow.

I have chosen to write in my own name.

Let's see how long it takes for trolls to seek me out on the internet.

willow has already grasped my name.


RIP Brenda Leyland.

It is certainly of note that every time a thread concerning Madeleine's death begins to develop it gets disrupted, and that those with valid contributions to make give up and fade away.
It is behaviour we saw a long time ago, but more recently though we had managed to avoid.
Clearly we were wrong.

Or Pehraps I should write 'cleerly Ww were MetPol, HOganHose, crusade Deick OBE, Jummy Savile, Opertion 
grimes, DCS Andy Redwood, former Assistant Commander, Metropolitan Police service, Mark Rowley,

PeterMac wrote:There's a strange tweet from Pat Brown.



I am unclear why Pat believes that this could not have happened on Sunday 29th, and the body discovered early morning Monday 30th, and 'hidden' elsewhere, in the Tennis bag, then elsewhere with the bag returned to the shelf to do its work.
We do know that however 'unlikely' it might seem, there are numerous cases of bodies having been hidden in very strange places for very long periods of time.  Even moving them around as Kate's favourite case Wisconsin -v- Zapata showed. 

@PeterMac  - Thank you for bringing us Pat Brown's tweet and your comments with which I agree entirely. I have also seen @aquila's comment with which I also agree.

Pat is very insistent that she is right, and when she denounced Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died', she did not give us a detailed rebuttal of his views, but dismissed him as a 'conspiracy theorist' and complained that he was 'giving McCann-sceptics a bad name.  

I did post a full reply on CMOMM to her article denouncing Richards's theory - but can't find it just now

Tony Bennett wrote:

PeterMac wrote:There's a strange tweet from Pat Brown.



I am unclear why Pat believes that this could not have happened on Sunday 29th, and the body discovered early morning Monday 30th, and 'hidden' elsewhere, in the Tennis bag, then elsewhere with the bag returned to the shelf to do its work.
We do know that however 'unlikely' it might seem, there are numerous cases of bodies having been hidden in very strange places for very long periods of time.  Even moving them around as Kate's favourite case Wisconsin -v- Zapata showed. 

@PeterMac  - Thank you for bringing us Pat Brown's tweet and your comments with which I agree entirely. I have also seen @aquila's comment with which I also agree.

Pat is very insistent that she is right, and when she denounced Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died', she did not give us a detailed rebuttal of his views, but dismissed him as a 'conspiracy theorist' and complained that he was 'giving McCann-sceptics a bad name.  

I did post a full reply on CMOMM to her article denouncing Richards's theory - but can't find it just now

I have a lot of respect for Pat Brown. What I struggle with is that an investigation can take itself to wherever the evidence leads and yet Pat Brown is stuck with her first theory.

Team admin are on 24/7 vigil to maintain the high standard of CMOMM and ensure disrupters are dealt with accordingly.

With that due diligence, the forum is now on track and disruption kept to a minimum.  I think team admin can say with pride - we've cracked it.

The only thing disrupting specific threads in more recent times is the continued unwarranted attack by forum members against other members, not by isolated posts that some find meaningless.  

If you pay heed to this simple fact and refrain from pointless criticism, it will avoid unnecessary derailment and the subject matter will continue to flow naturally.

Please leave the moderating to team admin.

Thank you.

1.  Verdi.  Amen to that.

2. Hobs.  Incisive points, again.   We also have to take into account that this entire exchange cannot have taken place as reported. There is no system of 'plea bargaining' in Portuguese law, and Kate's own lawyer had to intervene later to explain that it did not happen in this way.  If at all.

From the book, Ch. 16k the entire thing is repeated, with the lawyer Carlos 'blamed' for the incident.
QUOTED FOR RESEARCH AND COMPARISON PURPOSES

"Then came the best bit. Carlos announced what the police had proposed. If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being charged with homicide.

  Pardon? I really wasn’t sure if I could possibly have heard him correctly. My incredulity turned to rage. How dare they suggest I lie? How dare they expect me to live with such a charge against my name? And even more importantly, did they really expect me to confess to a crime they had made up, to falsely claim to the whole world that my daughter was dead, when the result would be that the whole world stopped looking for her? This police tactic might have worked successfully in the past but it certainly wasn’t going to work with me. Over my dead body. ‘You need to think about it,’ Carlos insisted. ‘It would only be one of you. Gerry could go back to work.’
  I was speechless.
  The incentive to accept this ‘offer’ seemed to be that if we didn’t agree to it, the authorities could or would go after us for murder, and if we were found guilty, we might both receive life sentences. Was this what it came down to? Confess to this lesser charge or risk something much worse?
  Gerry was distraught now. He was on his knees, sobbing, his head hung low. ‘We’re finished. Our life is over,’ he kept saying over and over again. The realization that we were at the mercy of an incomprehensible criminal justice system had hit him hard. It was excruciating to see him like this. I love him so much and he is usually so strong. I was very conscious that my response was different. Maybe I should have been on my knees, too. Why wasn’t I crying? Was my behaviour making me look cold or guilty? Again, my only explanation is that it was beyond comprehension. I might as well have been a character in a soap opera. Any time now the director would call ‘Cut!’ and this scene would be over. Even today, I struggle to believe it actually took place.
  There was a phrase Carlos must have used about twenty times: ‘This is the point of no return.’ I could feel myself shaking. He was a man with three daughters of his own. ‘Do you want me to lie? What would you do, Carlos? If one of your daughters was missing, and this happened to you, what would you do? Would you confess to a crime you hadn’t committed, knowing full well it would mean everyone would stop searching for her?’
  ‘I’d consider it, yes.’
  Heaven help us. My confidence in Carlos was evaporating almost as quickly as my faith in Portuguese justice. I couldn’t tell if he believed us, which, given that his job was to defend us, was a major worry, to put it mildly. Even if he did, I was no longer sure he had the backbone to stand up for us.
  It was one thing to make us aware of the PJ’s proposal, and perhaps Carlos was duty bound to do that; it was quite another, however, to suggest we accept it. I was horrified, and told him so in no uncertain terms.
  My anger and ferocious maternal instinct began to permeate Gerry’s despair. He was regaining his composure, his powers of reason and his fighting spirit.
  ‘They’ve got nothing!’ he fired at Carlos. He began pointing out the many flaws in the PJ’s ‘evidence’ and the complete absence of any logic. ‘This should be your job, not ours!’ he said. He asked Carlos whether he felt he was up to the job. Carlos thought so. Did he need assistance? Not at the moment, but he would if the case came to trial.
  Trisha and Eileen, disturbed by the noise, appeared from their room. Keeping a lid on my anger for long enough to enable me to communicate clearly, I brought them up to speed. Within seconds there were three raging lionesses pacing the villa.
  Recognizing the need to switch into crisis-management mode, we calmed each other down. Gerry and I made it very clear to Trisha and Eileen that if we didn’t return from the police station the next day, they should take the children out of the country as soon as possible.
  It must have been close to 4am when Carlos and Sofia left, saying they would see me at the police station later that morning. On her way out, Sofia came over and gave me a hug. She told me she believed in us, that she was ‘with’ us, and tried to allay my concerns about Carlos. I should trust him, she said. He was ‘very good’. It was a relief to know that somebody in Portugal was on our side.
  Gerry and I just looked at each other, not knowing quite what to do or what was to become of us. We’d experienced many periods of despair since our beloved daughter had been taken away, but this one would take some beating. Our lives, our family, our whole future hung in the balance. We couldn’t just go to bed. We had to do something. Despite the time, Gerry rang Bob Small and, in a voice laced with panic, explained what was going on. Bob was shocked. He wasn’t aware of any forensic results, he told us, and certainly none suggesting what had just been shared with us. He tried his best to reassure Gerry. ‘Just tell them the truth. It’ll be OK,’ he insisted. Perhaps he was trying to convince himself.
  It was almost 5am when we finally got to bed. Extra prayers tonight.
    Madeleine, sweetheart, please don’t forget how much we all love you. We will keep fighting, darling, and we will keep searching for you. Hang in there, Madeleine.
END


https://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2018/05/plea-bargain-police-proposal-that-only.html

“Police were still questioning Gerry McCann when, already, his sister Philomena was telling Sky they had offered Kate McCann a reduced two-year sentence if she admitted to killing her daughter accidentally, hiding the body and then secretly disposing of it weeks later (…) On this occasion the police officers were right to be angry. Like many things said about the McCann affair over the past days and months, the story was wrong. There was no offer of a plea bargain. It had all been "a misunderstanding", the McCann lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, explained the following day.”, “The Guardian” wrote. 
END

Another interesting feature is that this alleged exchange took place the day BEFORE they were taken to Portimão and shown the video of the dog's alerts to the Sofa and to the BAG !    (And were made 'arguido' to protect them from self-incrimination)
So if the order of events is correct, Kate informs us of the storage system – "in a bag" – before this has been suggested by the PJ.  If indeed they did, rather than merely showing the dog alerting and inviting a comment.

Back to Basics.   Squirrel hunting time.
According to the official story
GM went to 5A, and is the last person to see M alive.
He only leaves the immediate vicinity at 2120 after talking to JW and notoriously not seeing JT
This is a graphic of the movements pst the side and front of 5A.
All have to be completed in around 35-40 minutes.
It takes at least 3 minutes to do the full trip round to 5C and 5D.
Add viewing and 'parental pride' and normal hygiene time.

Ludicrous ?   
I think so.

PeterMac,

'So if the order of events is correct, Kate informs us of the storage system – "in a bag" – before this has been suggested by the PJ.  If indeed they did, rather than merely showing the dog alerting and inviting a comment'


I hope this has been brought to the attention of  Tiny Operation Grange. It's  a gamechanger.

Kate  tells us " I panicked and hid the body in a bag " , why would she choose a bag I wonder ? An element of truth leaking out , she is prone to " leaking " herself ! 
There was a bag photographed in the wardrobe , then like the pink blanket never seen again ! If this was said before she was shown the videos of the alerts by Eddie and Keela and Eddie alerting to  area of the wardrobe the bag is relevant . 
Interestingly despite his alert no forensics were done in the wardrobe , Eddie alerts to " dead body odour " and to " body fluids "( from a corpse ) including blood , but as Keela gave no alert there - no blood ! Forensics were taken from outside where Eddie alerted , veranda etc but none from the wardrobe ? Curious ! 
From Martin Grime -" the scent will build up in a particular area , if there isn't scent source in here i.e a physical article where the scent is emitting from , any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat .
What I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area for him to give me  bark indication , but the source may not be in that cupboard , the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing it into that corner " . 
Just my thoughts , is focusing on the wardrobe right , was Madeleines body elsewhere in the parents room leaving the scent residue which by the end of July due to air flow had settled by the wardrobe ? 

Like I say , just thoughts I'm putting together .

Where does this information about Kate and the bag come from?

The only recollection I have was by way of a UK tabloid report of an alleged interview with Kate McCann in September 2007, after the preliminary PJ interrogation - before Ms McCann exercised the right to remain silent.

Considering the Portuguese secrecy policy current at the time, I strongly suspect this alleged interview is pure fiction, or if you prefer supposition.

If anyone can point me towards a video link where Ms McCann can be heard to verify this alleged statement, I would be grateful. Otherwise it amounts to nothing.

I'll try and find the tabloid report later.

Later..

I can't find the actual tabloid report but this is as good as..

Madeleine's parents' return to UK 'heartbreaking'

September 10, 2007

ROTHLEY, England (CNN) -- Madeleine McCann's father says the return of his family to Britain without his missing daughter is heartbreaking but it does not mean they are abandoning the search for her.

Gerry McCann also insisted Sunday he and his wife Kate played no part in the disappearance four months ago of Madeleine despite being named by Portuguese police as suspects in the case.

The McCanns flew from Faro in southern Portugal with their two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie. At East Midlands airport in central England, Gerry McCann said the events of the last few days had been deeply disturbing.

"While it is heartbreaking to return to the UK without Madeleine, it does not mean we are giving up the search for her," he said. The McCanns, their friends and relatives say they are holding out hope that Madeleine is alive and will be found.

We have played no part in the disappearance of our lovely daughter Madeleine," he added.

The family then traveled to their home in the Leicestershire village of Rothley, 170 kilometers (110 miles) north of London, where dozens of TV camera crews and journalists were waiting.

Madeleine's aunt, Philomena McCann, said it was "unbelievable" that the couple had been named as suspects, and urged the police to focus their investigation on finding the little girl.

"No-one believes the Portuguese police," she told GMTV. "To think they are so callous and psychopathic that they could have done that... two more loving parents you could not hope to meet."

In a separate interview with the BBC she said the family wanted the "investigation changed round to look for Madeleine alive, as we reckon she is."

She added that the parents were prepared to return to Portugal to under go further questioning.

The McCanns reported that Madeleine had gone missing days before her 4th birthday on May 3 from their holiday apartment in Praia Da Luz in southern Portugal.

The parents told police they had left the girl and her siblings asleep in the unlocked apartment as they dined just meters away, checking on them frequently. However, later in the evening they discovered she was missing.

The case became a sensation in the British press and then internationally, with celebrities, including soccer icon David Beckham, offering their help. The parents traveled abroad to drum up support and even met Pope Benedict XVI.

But on Friday police in Portugal named the couple suspects after finding Madeleine's blood in a car the family rented 25 days after reporting her disappearance, a family spokeswoman said.

Officers in Portimao put the couple through intense rounds of questioning over the past few days, and declared them "arguidos," which, under Portuguese law, allows investigators to pose certain types of questions.

Arguidos also get certain legal protections that are not extended to mere witnesses. The term "arguido" is generally translated as "suspect." Portuguese authorities have not commented on the investigation.

The couple had vowed to stay in Portugal to clear their name, but on Sunday family spokeswoman Justine McGuinness said the McCanns were "returning to Britain after careful thought" and to give their twins a more normal life.

"I would like to emphasize that their return is with the full agreement of the Portuguese authorities and the police," McGuinness added.

The McCanns have consistently denied any wrongdoing.

In an interview published in the Sunday Mirror, Kate McCann is quoted as saying of the Portuguese police, "They want me to lie -- I'm being framed."

Philomena McCann told the British news network ITN that police "tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer" in which she would say she killed Madeleine by accident "and then disposed of the body."

The Sunday Mirror quoted Kate McCann discussing the offer.

"They are basically saying, 'If you confess Madeleine had an accident, and that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month then got rid of it in a hire car, I'd get two or three years' suspended sentence,'" she is quoted as saying, adding, "Police don't want a murder in Portugal."

The paper also quoted her as saying Portuguese police don't want "the publicity about them not having pedophile laws here, so they're blaming us." The U.S. State Department's latest annual report on human rights practices in different countries calls the Portuguese government "strongly committed to children's rights and welfare," and cites the "high-profile trial of a pedophilia operation" in Lisbon.

Numerous friends and relatives of the McCanns have called any allegations of them having harmed the girl ridiculous.

On Saturday, Kate McCann's mother Susan Healy told ITN, "It's ludicrous. It's bizarre ... Kate never raises her voice to her children. She's the most loving and gentle mother."

"She's kind, gentle, funny, she has a good sense of humor -- a person with a good sense of integrity, as is Gerry," Susan Healy said.

A friend who has known Kate McCann for 30 years agreed that it was "unthinkable" that the McCanns would have harmed their child.

"I've not spoken to them in the last say two or three days, but I'm sure they're probably struggling," Nicky Gill told ITN in Liverpool.

"To even think that someone might harm the children. They're just family people. They love the children to death. ... I'm sure they have to be devastated to know someone would even think that."

Gill said she is convinced that the girl is still alive.

"I think she's out there somewhere. I like to think it's just a phone call away."

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/09/madeleine.mccann/index.html