Was Madeleine seen after Sunday?

Verdi wrote: I've always leaned more towards the idea that the McCanns were in the vicinity of Sagres on 30th April...  [SNIPPED]

HiDeHo wrote:I have been posting one, by one the witnesses that CLAIM they saw Madeleine and posting on a new message each time for anyone that disputes to quote and add their comments.

I think you can see that so far, witnesses that many people have believed saw Madeleine are being shown to have probably been incorrect.

Does anyone disagree with the witnesses I have posted so far?

FATIMA
CATRIONA
MARIA (tapas cook)
JERONIMO (Waiter)
CECILIA (Millenium hostess for breakfast)

Tony Bennett wrote:

Verdi wrote: I've always leaned more towards the idea that the McCanns were in the vicinity of Sagres on 30th April...  [SNIPPED]

There's absolutely zero evidence for this, @ Verdi - apart from that flurry of news reports on 11th and 12th May, probably inspired by Team McCann, which put in the minds of the British public that a paedophile had seen Madeleine on  the beach at Sagres.

Neither the creche records nor the account of Monday given by Kate McCann in her book, 'madeleine' mention a visit to Sagres on Monday 30 April, or at any other time.   

Yet the McCann-inspired newspaper articles insisted they were there on 30 April.

Go figure!

(Clue: Smoke...

...and Mirrors).

It really doesn't help us to believe any of these tales when Nuno Lourenco swore that his daughter was nearly captured on Sunday, while the McCann-inspired news stories placed Lourenco and the McCann there on the Monday.

Both stories were immense successes though.

Lourenco's story sent the police on a wild goose chase to Berlin and Warsaw...

...while the 'paedophile-and-McCanns-at-Sagres' invention was the first in a long, long line of tales of abductors, paedophiles, gypsies, sightings, suspects, e-fits, burglars, smelly bin-men' 'persons of interest' and 'people we wish to eliminate from our enquiries', the like of which the world has never ever seen before, nor is ever likely to do so, as long as the world lasts

DaTroof wrote:Beach trip Monday based on creche records. Maddie & twins return to creche late Monday pm i.e. after trip to beach

skyrocket wrote:@TB

I think @DaTroof is probably referring to the Luz beach trip for ice creams and pop rather than Sagres. Two threads of discussion going on so it may help if specifics are stated!

HiDeHo wrote:

Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo PR Millenium   Saw Madeleine at breakfast Mistaken identity?    - saw MBM at breakfast when she worked on Tue, Wed & thurs, but does not specify exactly when seen (Note: conflicting evidence on where breakfast was taken by the family, and when) - Probably mistaken identity as McCanns did not go to breakfast during the week when she was working http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post137.html#p137 Cecilia Paula Dias Firmino do Carmo Date/Time: 2007/05/06 22H00 Occupation: Public Relations Place of Work: Millenium restaurant, OC. When asked, she says that she knows the parents, the siblings and Madeleine. She received them for breakfast on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, she does not know whether they went for breakfast on Sunday or Monday, as these were her days off. She says that breakfast was served between 08.00 and 10.00 and that the McCanns would arrive between 08.00 and 09.00. She says that the McCanns appeared to be a normal family and that the relation between the members of the family was very good. Madeleine appeared to be very attached to her father and was always clinging on to him. Given her public relations function she was always very nice to the guests and would get involved with the children, saying that Madeleine was very shy and did not respond to her. She says that the only contact she had with guests was at the entrance to the Millenium restaurant, she did not have a view of the tables or the Buffet area.

REASON FOR QUESTIONING - Cecila did not work on the ONLY day we 'know' that Madeleine went to the Millenium for breakfast. Sunday.

She may have been describing E**a on Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday and her description of her being shy DOES describe E**a's personality and not Madeleine.
NOT PROOF THAT SHE SAW MADELEINE

pennylane wrote:

HiDeHo wrote:

pennylane wrote:Good work HdH

If I may start with what Goncalo Amaral told Kazlux directly when asked in person whilst launching his book in Amersterdam on 5th May 2009.  
 

Q: Have you any doubt as to the validity of Madeleine attending the creche on 3/5?

A: No doubt whatsoever.



My own belief is that GA would not have said this if there were any doubts as it's a vital part of the initial investigation to establish when Maddie was last seen.  I know some say 'we know a lot more now,' however, my feeling is that GA is the one who knows a lot more than we do, and is one smart cookie.  Just saying.....

 You are absolutely correct pennylane and certainly IS something that I have taken into consideration.

What we DON'T know is what he based his information on.

Goncalo was the coordinator of the case and not the man on the ground interviewing.  He would recive the information from his officers.

Some of the nannies statements claimed to have seen Maddie during the week as well as a general statement from Catriona that she was there all week.

She was signed in an out every day and all of the information and statements points to her being there.

The investigation had no reason at that point to suspect she wasn't there, and even if they DID suspect anything was not credible, they cannot claim it in public unless it is proved to be wrong.

Once the rogatory interviews were in place, many things started to become questionable. Not because of memory but for many other reasons.

The police (after Goncalo was the coordinator) asked many questions that would have no relevance if something did not happen until that night.

Many of the witnesses were asked if they saw the McCanns in a car during the week...

Rachel claimed the LAST TIME she saw Madeleine was at mini tennis, but she claimed it was THURSDAY morning, but that was the Sharks that were playing, the lobsters played on TUESDAY.  Was Tuesday the last time she saw Madeleine?  

The police QUESTIONED Rachael and asked her WHICH COURT they played on...WHY?  Rachael responded with the incorrect answer, but whether Tuesday or Thursday they questioned her and that shuld not have been relevant if nothing happened until THURSDAY even ing...

Gerry started receiving the first of text messages, (which he deleted and denied) at 8am Wednesday morning.  These messages were so important to the investigation that they applied to SUPREME court about a month before the shelving to try to get info on these messages.  They were refused, but if nothing happened until Thursday night WHY would these text messages be of such importance from Wednesday morning? 

Goncalo Amaral claimed in his documentary, while pointing to Madeleine's bed that it didn't look like it had been slept in.  Goncalo Amaral knew the cleaner had made the bed Wednesday morning, so was he suggesting she hadn't slept in it since Tuesday night?





There are other indications also about discrepancies DURING the week that the police had questioned.


I have no idea what Goncalo based his knowledge on and whether it was his opinion or based on the investigation 'facts' (that hadn't been proven)  my effort is not to prove him wrong...


I am just asking for ANY indication that could be considered PROOF she was seen...

Also, any reason the discrepancies started to happen on Tuesday

Thank you HiDeHo 

I'm not disagreeing with you at all.  In fact I would say you have hit on something else that was going on, that is perhaps the reason the McCanns got all their protection?  I'm just not comfortable believing so many are lying, not credible, or mistaken re M being alive that week. I still feel she met her demise on 3rd and there was last minute panic and shambolic backfitting, and I cannot shake that feeling off whenever I go back over the events of that evening.

HiDeHo just to add a thought  

Tony Bennett wrote:

pennylane wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with you at all.  In fact I would say you have hit on something else that was going on, that is perhaps the reason the McCanns got all their protection?  I'm just not comfortable believing so many are lying, not credible, or mistaken re M being alive that week...

Here's one very important 'sighting' of Madeleine that week which looks like it was certainly mistaken, and not credible.

We haven't spent any time looking at it, though IIRC HideHo might have referred to it briefly way up the thread.

It's a sighting that IMO deserves much much more attention than it has had so far.

It's the one by Luisa Anade Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho - one of the Ocean Club receptionists:    
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUISA_COUTINHO.htm *

Here's what she says:

QUOTE

She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the individuals of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.

When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company.

The man justified his request by saying that the group had many small children whom they would leave alone when they went to dine. She said that at intervals some two parents would go to the apartments to see if everything was OK.

UNQUOTE

Some say that this account only makes sense if the individual concerened was Dr Russell O'Brien - and the girl with him was not Madeleine but his own daughter, Ella.

Ella was said to look very much like Madeleine.  

Luisa Ana Coutinho, along with other witnesses, was probably shown a photograph of Madeleine - in order to identify her - which was one of those circulating in the early days, maybe the 'First Photo', so probably only 'recognised' this girl as Madeleine from the photographs of her being circulated.

This has led a number of people, very understandably, to suggest that a number of the claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine that week were actually of Ella, and not of Madeleine at all.


* acknowledgement to pamalam  

Doug D wrote:Pennylane,
 
Based on KM’s book, Cecilia had to be mistaken (and we all know that everything in there is completely factual don’t we?)
 
‘Sunday 29 April, we woke up bright and early and feeling refreshed. After a quick wash, we returned to the Millennium
restaurant,…….......
 
Gerry had made a trip to Baptista, a supermarket a short distance from the Ocean Club on Rua Dr Gentil Martins, to get in a few bits and pieces for lunch, plus some cereal, to save us making the trek to the Millennium restaurant for breakfast each morning………….
 
The following days settled into a similar pattern: we’d have breakfast in the apartment,……………..’
 
Should have been easy for the PJ to confirm either way as it would be usual for all-inclusive guests to sign a register when they go for a meal to stop all & sundry just walking in off the street.

pennylane wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

pennylane wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with you at all.  In fact I would say you have hit on something else that was going on, that is perhaps the reason the McCanns got all their protection?  I'm just not comfortable believing so many are lying, not credible, or mistaken re M being alive that week...

Here's one very important 'sighting' of Madeleine that week which looks like it was certainly mistaken, and not credible.

We haven't spent any time looking at it, though IIRC HideHo might have referred to it briefly way up the thread.

It's a sighting that IMO deserves much much more attention than it has had so far.

It's the one by Luisa Anade Noronha de Azevedo Coutinho - one of the Ocean Club receptionists:    
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUISA_COUTINHO.htm *

Here's what she says:

QUOTE

She remembers that on Sunday 29th April one of the individuals of the group arrived with the child Madeleine McCann, she does not know his name and can only say that he was male and tall and thin and that he approached her to request a booking for the whole group, for the whole week and always at 20.30.

When questioned, she confirms that the man was not the father of the girl but one of the members of the group whom was often seen in his company.

The man justified his request by saying that the group had many small children whom they would leave alone when they went to dine. She said that at intervals some two parents would go to the apartments to see if everything was OK.

UNQUOTE

Some say that this account only makes sense if the individual concerened was Dr Russell O'Brien - and the girl with him was not Madeleine but his own daughter, Ella.

Ella was said to look very much like Madeleine.  

Luisa Ana Coutinho, along with other witnesses, was probably shown a photograph of Madeleine - in order to identify her - which was one of those circulating in the early days, maybe the 'First Photo', so probably only 'recognised' this girl as Madeleine from the photographs of her being circulated.

This has led a number of people, very understandably, to suggest that a number of the claimed 'sightings' of Madeleine that week were actually of Ella, and not of Madeleine at all.


* acknowledgement to pamalam  

Thank you Tony, 

Yes it could indicate the two girls looked alike.

kaz wrote:How does Tony feel about HDH's assertion that Fatima's (the cleaner) sighting of Madeleine at 1.30 ish on Sunday was in her opinion credible? How can the 'Last Photo' have been taken on Sunday if HDH is right?

pennylane wrote:Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd. 

Tony Bennett wrote:

pennylane wrote:Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd. 

@ pennylane     Cat Baker testifies that Madeleine went sailing on the morning of Thursday 3rd May.

Do you believe that statement?

pennylane wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

pennylane wrote:Personally I don't believe Catriona Baker would say she was with little Maddie throughout the week if she was not. I agree she doesn't say Maddie was at High Tea, but she does say Maddie was brought in by Gerry on the morning of May 3rd. 

@ pennylane     Cat Baker testifies that Madeleine went sailing on the morning of Thursday 3rd May.

Do you believe that statement?

 
Hi Tony, what time was that please?