Where did those new e-fits really come from?

by Aoife 28.10.13 18:37

Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played

by worriedmum 28.10.13 18:43

When is the Irish version of Crimewatch going to be screened? It would be interesting to see if there are any adjustments...

by Daisy 28.10.13 18:45

Aoife wrote:Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played

Good first post Aoife, (lovely Irish name) welcome.

I'd say yes, not sure how clever yet though, that remains to be seen.

by Aoife 28.10.13 18:46

worriedmum wrote:When is the Irish version of Crimewatch going to be screened? It would be interesting to see if there are any adjustments...

EAch programme so far has been completely different- obviously aimed at different audiences. I didn't know an Irish special was due. Many people will have seen the UK Crimewatch as there is wide spread viewing of Brit TV.

by Aoife 28.10.13 18:49

Daisy wrote:
Aoife wrote:Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played
Good first post Aoife, (lovely Irish name) welcome.

I'd say yes, not sure how clever yet though, that remains to be seen.

But if the Smiths had no idea of the face in May2007, where did the e-fits come from. This is surely a major plot hole in what we have been told. Aoife is just a pen name and the name of one of my fovorite singers, Aoife O'Donovan. And the name of Mrs Smith!

by tiny 28.10.13 18:50

Aoife wrote:Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played

good question,i think quite a lot of us would like to know where they came from as in Martin Smiths additional statement it is said that he hasn't helped in any photo fits

by Aoife 28.10.13 18:56

tiny wrote:
Aoife wrote:Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played
good question,i think quite a lot of us would like to know where they came from as in Martin Smiths additional statement it is said that he hasn't helped in any photo fits

The second statement was in September, so any e-fits they were involved in would have been more than six months after tey had said quite clearly that they would not recognise the face.

Stranger and stranger.

by oakeso 28.10.13 19:12

Was there another statement (Smith) after Jan 2008? I can't see one. Maybe an efit was done after then?

by galena 28.10.13 19:24

Aoife wrote:Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played

Yes that puzzles me too. I've experimented walking home in the dark trying to observe strangers as they walk past - but no way could I draw an efit of any of those people - you can't see properly because it's dark, they walk past so quickly and you tend not to look at strangers or make eye contact anyway. I wouldn't be able to do an accurate photofit minutes later, never mind months later! But never mind, two more photofits, two more strange looking characters to add to Bundleman, Creepyman and the rest who supposedly populated PDL in May 2007 winkwink

by MRNOODLES 28.10.13 19:52

galena wrote:
Aoife wrote:Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played
Yes that puzzles me too. I've experimented walking home in the dark trying to observe strangers as they walk past - but no way could I draw an efit of any of those people - you can't see properly because it's dark, they walk past so quickly and you tend not to look at strangers or make eye contact anyway. I wouldn't be able to do an accurate photofit minutes later, never mind months later! But never mind, two more photofits, two more strange looking characters to add to Bundleman, Creepyman and the rest who supposedly populated PDL in May 2007

There's a trick to remembering faces if you only see them for a second or two.

What I was told is, when trying to recall the face. You think, do they resemble a well known personality? Then take it from there

by galena 28.10.13 20:01

MRNOODLES wrote:
galena wrote:
Aoife wrote:Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played
Yes that puzzles me too. I've experimented walking home in the dark trying to observe strangers as they walk past - but no way could I draw an efit of any of those people - you can't see properly because it's dark, they walk past so quickly and you tend not to look at strangers or make eye contact anyway. I wouldn't be able to do an accurate photofit minutes later, never mind months later! But never mind, two more photofits, two more strange looking characters to add to Bundleman, Creepyman and the rest who supposedly populated PDL in May 2007
There's a trick to remembering faces if you only see them for a second or two.

What I was told is, when trying to recall the face. You think, do they resemble a well known personality? Then take it from there

Thanks for a tip. I'll try that some time.

by Aoife 28.10.13 20:01

MRNOODLES wrote:
galena wrote:
Aoife wrote:Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played
Yes that puzzles me too. I've experimented walking home in the dark trying to observe strangers as they walk past - but no way could I draw an efit of any of those people - you can't see properly because it's dark, they walk past so quickly and you tend not to look at strangers or make eye contact anyway. I wouldn't be able to do an accurate photofit minutes later, never mind months later! But never mind, two more photofits, two more strange looking characters to add to Bundleman, Creepyman and the rest who supposedly populated PDL in May 2007
There's a trick to remembering faces if you only see them for a second or two.

What I was told is, when trying to recall the face. You think, do they resemble a well known personality? Then take it from there

All the research done on face recognition shows that unless major features are perceived and remembered at the time, anything after that is no better than guess work. There was an excellent page on the internet about this where a face was flashed up and you were then asked to pick which one of none faces you had seen. Most people chose three people who shared a feature with the original and believed they were right. In fact none of the nine looked anything like the original; people just amplified their patchy memory and went for hairstyle, nose size or roundness of face.

by Aoife 28.10.13 20:04

So we seem to be left with e-fits from the Smiths who did not really see the face, or e-fits from some as yet unidentified person.

by galena 28.10.13 20:18

Aoife wrote:
MRNOODLES wrote:
galena wrote:
Aoife wrote:Are SY holding back information?

Smith Family Statements taken 26th May 2007:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”

Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

Now it seems to be claimed that the e-fits were made some time after this- in fact months afterwards. In their statemenst they are quite clear that they have no recall of facial features.

So, how were they able to give information for an e-fit so much later when they said the above in May?
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.” (Martin)
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.” (Aoife)

Or did the Private Detectives draw on other sources for these e-fits? If so, which other sources?

Is a clever game being played
Yes that puzzles me too. I've experimented walking home in the dark trying to observe strangers as they walk past - but no way could I draw an efit of any of those people - you can't see properly because it's dark, they walk past so quickly and you tend not to look at strangers or make eye contact anyway. I wouldn't be able to do an accurate photofit minutes later, never mind months later! But never mind, two more photofits, two more strange looking characters to add to Bundleman, Creepyman and the rest who supposedly populated PDL in May 2007
There's a trick to remembering faces if you only see them for a second or two.

What I was told is, when trying to recall the face. You think, do they resemble a well known personality? Then take it from there
All the research done on face recognition shows that unless major features are perceived and remembered at the time, anything after that is no better than guess work. There was an excellent page on the internet about this where a face was flashed up and you were then asked to pick which one of none faces you had seen. Most people chose three people who shared a feature with the original and believed they were right. In fact none of the nine looked anything like the original; people just amplified their patchy memory and went for hairstyle, nose size or roundness of face.

Interesting post. My experience is if someone is walking towards in poor lighting you only get one really good look at them and unless you've got an amazing memory for faces you can probably remember just one thing - their face/hair/shoes that's why I'm suspicious of all these detailed photofits and the little details remembered. As you say it can't really be more than guesswork ...

by chillyheat 28.10.13 20:34

Maybe the efits are red herrings....Maybe there is something more sinister in the file. Or maybe they were made to look like Gerry as a defence against speculative trolls on the internet big grin

I cant make head nor tails of things lately....

by Fred Up 28.10.13 20:38

Maybe the whole CW appeal was for another actual witness (if it wasn't the Smiths) who helped draw up those e-fits to come forward? Perhaps that's not in the PI files???

Time will tell. We don't know anything yet. We'll be drip-fed the story by the ST. I'm sure of it.

by Guest 28.10.13 20:44

Fred Up wrote:Maybe the whole CW appeal was for the actual person (if it wasn't the Smiths) who helped draw up those e-fits to come forward? Perhaps that's not in the PI files???

It says in the ST article that they flew to Ireland to get them off Mr Smith.

Quote:

Instead, they focused on the Smith sighting, travelling to Ireland to interview the family and produce E-Fits of the man they saw. Their report said the Smiths were "helpful and sincere"

by View-from-Ireland 28.10.13 20:46

Wasn't Martin Smith interviewed by the Irish police c. January 2008? In that interview I think he said that it was when he saw Gerry McCann carry Sean from the plane on the BBC news that it triggered his memory of the night Madeleine disappeared and he realised that the person he had seen had a 60-80% resemblance to Gerry McCann.

Perhaps the relevant material is on mccanfiles.

by Fred Up 28.10.13 20:48

candyfloss wrote:
Fred Up wrote:Maybe the whole CW appeal was for the actual person (if it wasn't the Smiths) who helped draw up those e-fits to come forward? Perhaps that's not in the PI files???
It says in the ST article that they flew to Ireland to get them off Mr Smith.

Quote:

Instead, they focused on the Smith sighting, travelling to Ireland to interview the family and produce E-Fits of the man they saw. Their report said the Smiths were "helpful and sincere"

Ah yes, thanks! yes

by dentdelion 28.10.13 20:50

I thought one of Smiths spoke to this man? 'is the child asleep?'......

by Aoife 28.10.13 21:03

View-from-Ireland wrote:Wasn't Martin Smith interviewed by the Irish police c. January 2008? In that interview I think he said that it was when he saw Gerry McCann carry Sean from the plane on the BBC news that it triggered his memory of the night Madeleine disappeared and he realised that the person he had seen had a 60-80% resemblance to Gerry McCann.

Perhaps the relevant material is on mccanfiles.

That was movement and posture- he denied any specific information about facial features.

by View-from-Ireland 28.10.13 21:18

Aoife wrote:
View-from-Ireland wrote:Wasn't Martin Smith interviewed by the Irish police c. January 2008? In that interview I think he said that it was when he saw Gerry McCann carry Sean from the plane on the BBC news that it triggered his memory of the night Madeleine disappeared and he realised that the person he had seen had a 60-80% resemblance to Gerry McCann.

Perhaps the relevant material is on mccanfiles.
That was movement and posture- he denied any specific information about facial features.

They guessed an age range gave some details on hair, clothes. Yeah, you are right, nothing really on facial features. Maybe there are more details behind the scenes.

by Guest 28.10.13 21:18

Recognising someone, remembering people, faces, is a complicated process. It CAN be straight-out remembering a face. It can also be the "sum" of subconscious registration, which can be triggered by a new recognition.

I'll give you an example: two weeks ago I had a lumberman presenting himself at the gate, requiring whether I could use his services. I had a feeling I knew him, but we hadn't met before. Asking questions - apart from his qualifications - e.g. his address, I remembered that two years earlier I had spent quite some time opposite of HIS house on the other side of this little street, whilst waiting for someone on a hot summer day. I had never given it a second thought, hadn't consciously registered him, but I did recognise him ...

by sami 28.10.13 21:30

dentdelion wrote:I thought one of Smiths spoke to this man? 'is the child asleep?'......

Thank you for posting this. I had in my mind it was Mrs Smith said this and I had read it in her statements. Then when looking at the statements more recently, I could see nothing from her. Strange that.

She said ah she's asleep to the man and he looked away without replying. That's in my mind but I can no longer find it.

by Woofer 28.10.13 22:20

So we have concluded that the E-fits were done by the Exton team?

Martin Smith gave his second statement in January 2008 saying he had not done any photo-fits.

Exton team hired after that statement in Spring 2008 when they went to "Ireland to interview the family and produce E-fits of the man they saw" - as quoted by ST.

So presumably the McCanns had Exton`s report plus the E-fits with their files (which they removed before handing over to SY).

SY find out about these E-fits (presumably from interviewing Martin Smith).

SY get in contact with Henri Exton to ask if he has his own copy. He says yes but cannot hand them over without permission from the fund.

SY force the fund to give Henri Exton permission to hand his copy over.

SY use the E-fits on Crimewatch.

Henri Exton is shocked that SY said it was a NEW lead.

This is IMO only