WHO STILL THINKS THIS IS A WHITEWASH?

After the dramatic events of the past few months, most significantly:

*  the removal of Tannerman
*  the mention of death
*  the excavations in Portugal
*  the change in reporting from abduction to disappearance

There are countless more.  Kate looks as though she is having a nervous breakdown, and it was apparent that she was strictly forbidden from speaking when the couple last addressed their public outside the Lisbon Court.

The McCanns are clearly not singing from the same hymn sheet as Scotland Yard.  Tannerman still holds pole position on their webpage, and the message is they are looking for a live child.  Scotland Yard by contrast, are searching for a body. 

I am no expert on whitewashes, but surely in order for a whitewash to succeed, all the parties involved should be co-operating with each other? 

I also think, that if you were about to embark on a whitewash, you would not choose to do so in a blaze of publicity.  Whitewashes are by their very nature, covert and secretive.  They should also involve the least of amount of people possible, as every individual is a potential whistleblower.  The size and scale of Operation Grange, takes the cast list to hundreds. 

However, the most significant argument against a whitewash is the involvement of Scotland Yard.  Why are they involved?  Why are they investigating a crime that was committed in Portugal?  Putting it bluntly, its none of their business.  Has there ever been a crime, anywhere in the world, where a nation has said, we do not accept the findings of your police, so we will investigate it ourselves?  Did the USA send out a task force of FBI, or CIA to overrule the evidence in the Amanda Knox case?  The idea is absurd.

Before the investigation began, senior officers from the CPS flew out to meet their counterparts in Portugal.  In my opinion the only logical reason for their visit would be the involvement of British citizens.  Ditto, the involvement of Scotland Yard, realistically, how can they investigate a crime in another country? 

Are officers from SY presently going through the criminal, medical, financial and past histories of the three stooges they dragged in to interview.  All of which, will be in Portuguese.  Will they be interviewing their friends, colleagues, everyone who knows them?  Again, all Portuguese, and in Malinka's case, Russian.  How exactly will they build their case for prosecution against these 3? And even if they accomplished the impossible, it would be up to the Portuguese Attorney General.

Scotland Yard cannot prosecute anyone for the crime committed in Portugal.  So why are British taxpayers paying millions to investigate a crime where the UK has no jurisdiction?  In my opinion, the only reason SY are involved in this case, is because the suspects are British. 

I would be interested to hear if anyone has changed their mind recently, or indeed become more resolute that Madeleine will never receive justice. 
Wish I could add one of those poll thingies, perhaps someone from admin could assist?  

Very good post! Congratulations  

Cristobell wrote:After the dramatic events of the past few months, most significantly:

*  the removal of Tannerman
*  the mention of death
*  the excavations in Portugal
*  the change in reporting from abduction to disappearance

There are countless more.  Kate looks as though she is having a nervous breakdown, and it was apparent that she was strictly forbidden from speaking when the couple last addressed their public outside the Lisbon Court.

The McCanns are clearly not singing from the same hymn sheet as Scotland Yard.  Tannerman still holds pole position on their webpage, and the message is they are looking for a live child.  Scotland Yard by contrast, are searching for a body. 

I am no expert on whitewashes, but surely in order for a whitewash to succeed, all the parties involved should be co-operating with each other? 

I also think, that if you were about to embark on a whitewash, you would not choose to do so in a blaze of publicity.  Whitewashes are by their very nature, covert and secretive.  They should also involve the least of amount of people possible, as every individual is a potential whistleblower.  The size and scale of Operation Grange, takes the cast list to hundreds. 

However, the most significant argument against a whitewash is the involvement of Scotland Yard.  Why are they involved?  Why are they investigating a crime that was committed in Portugal?  Putting it bluntly, its none of their business.  Has there ever been a crime, anywhere in the world, where a nation has said, we do not accept the findings of your police, so we will investigate it ourselves?  Did the USA send out a task force of FBI, or CIA to overrule the evidence in the Amanda Knox case?  The idea is absurd.

Before the investigation began, senior officers from the CPS flew out to meet their counterparts in Portugal.  In my opinion the only logical reason for their visit would be the involvement of British citizens.  Ditto, the involvement of Scotland Yard, realistically, how can they investigate a crime in another country? 

Are officers from SY presently going through the criminal, medical, financial and past histories of the three stooges they dragged in to interview.  All of which, will be in Portuguese.  Will they be interviewing their friends, colleagues, everyone who knows them?  Again, all Portuguese, and in Malinka's case, Russian.  How exactly will they build their case for prosecution against these 3? And even if they accomplished the impossible, it would be up to the Portuguese Attorney General.

Scotland Yard cannot prosecute anyone for the crime committed in Portugal.  So why are British taxpayers paying millions to investigate a crime where the UK has no jurisdiction?  In my opinion, the only reason SY are involved in this case, is because the suspects are British. 

I would be interested to hear if anyone has changed their mind recently, or indeed become more resolute that Madeleine will never receive justice.  Wish I could add one of those poll thingies because someone from admin could assist?  

I am still where I was prior to these happenings.

The activities of someone or some persons are being prevented from becoming exposed - which has meant that there has not been a full and thorough investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine Mc Cann.
SY are trying hard to bring everything to a resolution whilst under orders not to allow 'what went on' to become exposed. They are doing their best to bring justice in as far as their remit allows. It is not going to be easy.

(I detest  Bernard H-H).

How about running a book (I'm not a gambler so I hope I got that term correct) on whether (by incredible co-incidence of course) Scotland Yard, that's Andy and the crew will make yet another big announcement/get their faces in the UK media just as the Lisbon Trial resumes in September.

What odds can be placed on this?

I'm still of the opinion that it is not a whitewash. 

I was watching a "real NCIS" tv programme a few nights ago in which the police investigators were investigating a gang who had done many crimes but they did not have enough evidence to convict them.  I only had one ear on the tv but both ears pricked up when I heard one of the investigators state at the end of the programme -

"It's like peeling back the layers of an onion, you have to go back to square one and start again and go over and over every shred of evidence you have, you have to keep motivated, you have to keep strong no matter how long it takes".

Hmmmmm.   

ETA:  I can't see the point of Andy Redwood saying the words "it's like peeling back the layers of an onion" if SY were only interested in working on a cover up.

Cristobell wrote:Wish I could add one of those poll thingies, perhaps someone from admin could assist?  

Go into 'Edit' and near the bottom, underneath your post, you will see a Poll thingy  

Poll away!

admin wrote:

Cristobell wrote:Wish I could add one of those poll thingies, perhaps someone from admin could assist?  

Go into 'Edit' and near the bottom, underneath your post, you will see a Poll thingy  

Poll away!

Many thanks, but Eeek, followed all your instructions created poll, then at bottom it said select forum, which I did (debate section) then pressed go, but it has vanished!  I am hoping it is still somewhere in the ethers, as I was quite pleased with it.

Where did I go wrong?   

Cristobell wrote:

admin wrote:

Cristobell wrote:Wish I could add one of those poll thingies, perhaps someone from admin could assist?  

Go into 'Edit' and near the bottom, underneath your post, you will see a Poll thingy  

Poll away!

Many thanks, but Eeek, followed all your instructions created poll, then at bottom it said select forum, which I did (debate section) then pressed go, but it has vanished!  I am hoping it is still somewhere in the ethers, as I was quite pleased with it.

Where did I go wrong?   

I've had a look but it does seem to have gone...did you press SEND?

You shouldn't need to select forum as you're already on the correct part of the forum.

You could pm me and I'll add the poll for you if you get stuck again, but have another go first.

I still think it's a whitewash.

Did they start at the beginning?

Did they interview the Tapas 9?

Did they do a reconstruction?

Did they consider was most likely according to all the stats? 

No they spent millions of pounds and years doing anything but.

BlueBag wrote:I still think it's a whitewash.

Did they start at the beginning?

Did they interview the Tapas 9?

Did they do a reconstruction?

Did they consider was most likely according to all the stats? 

No they spent millions of pounds and years doing anything but.

The Tapas 9 have already made statements, I doubt they will change anything unless they are reinterviewed "under caution" when there is enough evidence to prosecute, or whatever the procedure is.

I believe the PJ did their own reconstruction a long time ago but they already knew the timelines didn't add up.  The Tapas 9 would still refuse to go back to Portugal to do a reconstruction unless they are forced to.

Of course, I may be completely wrong but we're all guessing one way or the other.

I don't think its a whitewash, there is just not enough evidence (as far as we are aware) for a successful prosecution yet.

A whitewash could have been achieved years ago and the involvement of the CPS strongly suggests that they are after British nationals. As you quite rightly say Cristobel, they wouldn't bother otherwise.

I have great respect for Tony et al who are in the whitewash camp, and I can understand their cynicism, but looking at the overall picture and the mountain of red flags, I don't agree.

Always receptive to new thinking and debate, which this forum provides.

All of the above IMO.

As much as I don't want to be, I'm still in Camp McWhitewash.

Newintown wrote:I'm still of the opinion that it is not a whitewash. 

I was watching a "real NCIS" tv programme a few nights ago in which the police investigators were investigating a gang who had done many crimes but they did not have enough evidence to convict them.  I only had one ear on the tv but both ears pricked up when I heard one of the investigators state at the end of the programme -

"It's like peeling back the layers of an onion, you have to go back to square one and start again and go over and over every shred of evidence you have, you have to keep motivated, you have to keep strong no matter how long it takes".

Hmmmmm.   

ETA:  I can't see the point of Andy Redwood saying the words "it's like peeling back the layers of an onion" if SY were only interested in working on a cover up.

I think they must be as frustrated as we are Newintown.  Obviously they do not have strong enough evidence as yet to get a conviction.  A body would have sealed the case I think, but if they were sticking a pin in a map and spending hundreds of thousands digging holes to force the McCanns into a confession, then that would be a cunning plan too far.

Again, if this were a whitewash, why drive the McCanns insane with stress?  Especially given their love of the cameras, where they could, at any time breakdown and tell the truth, TV Gold by the way, and probably why they get so many invitations to appear on live television.  No, its not their charismatic personalities that gets them the warm welcomes, it is the opportunity for a journalist to get the scoop of a lifetime.  If the launch of the McCann begging site got 100 million hits, then the revelation moment will get the same again and then some. 

Kate and Gerry are indeed cold fish, but they are incapable of hiding their emotions when things are going well.  When they were safely enmeshed within the protective circle that had formed around them in PDL, they were like carefree, honeymooners.  No-one dared to criticize them, they set up the media monitoring unit that very night and the word 'hater' was created.  They completely let their guard down in the Expresso Interview, where Gerry gives us the dictionary definition of gloating, smug bastard and Kate giggles like a dizzy schoolgirl, even when describing the moment her daughter was taken.

During their lucrative years when the Fund was going well and they were being feted as heroes, they were entirely different people to the ones we see today.  Gerry is not popping up at media conferences, or on the Whitehouse Lawn, nor is he receiving standing ovations from the police.  If Kate has duties as an Ambassador, I doubt very much she is up to them, her recent media appearances have shown a woman on the edge. 

During their golden years, they were smug, arrogant and posturing.  Now, the wider agenda, has dwindled to a handful of disparate maniacs who will snort like a pig if the price is right, they are struggling to keep the abduction story afloat, but that's the story they are sticking with.  However, they are making no constructive attempts to convince the rest of us anymore.  No more 'expert' reports on why they are 100% innocent, no more campaigning and petitions*.  They can't even be arsed to plead their case with a sympathetic interviewer, even passing the opportunity when the dramatic excavations began in PDL when no doubt they had plenty of offers to give a comment.  Remember in their heyday when the PJ were in charge of the investigation and they had 'protection', they were spreading Madeleine awareness all over the globe.  They are lucky to sell a luggage tag these days, and I don't think they even bothered themselves on their recent trips to Lisbon - can't say I saw them putting up posters either.

I still find it hard to believe that in this day and age anyone or everyone in the police force doesn't have the heart or courage to stand up to doctors who neglected their young children, and the worst possible outcome has happened because of that neglect. Cover ups that's happened before are now being brought into the open, why would anyone want to risk all of this coming out in the future? And it will sooner or later, just as were all seeing now. Can you imagine the uproar not only with poor maddie but all of those who donated early on? Of what the mcs have done with misleading the world and what they've gained? The world is waking up from this bull and they won't be happy at all for being fooled. To be honest, all I want is maddie to be found and laid to rest in peace and for the people responsible to be brought to justice, IMO it's fair to want that for a nearly four year old child and it's not much to ask of any police force to just do their job right, just like the man who never even met her but who has a heart, Sir Goncalo Amaral. All IMO   

Ps I would not forget the others who neglected their babies either!

admin wrote:

Cristobell wrote:

admin wrote:

Cristobell wrote:Wish I could add one of those poll thingies, perhaps someone from admin could assist?  

Go into 'Edit' and near the bottom, underneath your post, you will see a Poll thingy  

Poll away!

Many thanks, but Eeek, followed all your instructions created poll, then at bottom it said select forum, which I did (debate section) then pressed go, but it has vanished!  I am hoping it is still somewhere in the ethers, as I was quite pleased with it.

Where did I go wrong?   

I've had a look but it does seem to have gone...did you press SEND?

You shouldn't need to select forum as you're already on the correct part of the forum.

You could pm me and I'll add the poll for you if you get stuck again, but have another go first.

Apologies Admin, I really am dense when it comes to technology   

I think I have discovered where I went wrong, the word send was a big clue!  

Cristobel

Excellent post and I think more than a few reasons for my answers.

I don't necessarily think I have changed my mind. 

In fact, I am surprised that some the details which have emerged from OG have led me to actually change the m.o. of how I thought the whitewash is going to be presented. 

I initially thought that it would be just a "presumed dead", declared so by McCanns after 7 years, we read the files, we have done the searches, nothing to be found, case closed as far as UK was concerned. But I think now that even though the "whitewashers" expected a lot of anti protesting they realised that they would have to produce someone, if not some "thing" to allow the whitewash to fix. Not necessarily anything that is enough to prosecute. But I will say, the whitewashers have a lot of patience and will wait as long as it takes to get us to swallow what needs to be swallowed.

I also don't believe that Kate is suffering at all, neither of them actually. Suffering from something else, well, maybe yes, but not wanting to tempt fate so I wont say. Anyone who can smile whilst coming out of the Church in PdL on the day of Madeleine's birthday has no feelings at all. I expect we would all say we would have to be practically carried out.

As regards jurisdiction the UK has a notoriously "big thumb" and when it presses down on something it generally has the required effect. The CPS going to Portugal was IMO the thumb. It obviously will not be able to prosecute anyone but I think that Portugal will just leave the case "shelved" and gathering dust. Which is what the UK want. But it takes a up a lot of time investigating by SY as you say, interpreters, etc., so lots of paper work again, filing, lunches. Who cares, they don't - its just numbers in the grand scheme. Yes, I agree its because they are British that SY got involved. But I think its better than early retirement.

I am more resolute that its going to be a whitewash.

aquila wrote:How about running a book (I'm not a gambler so I hope I got that term correct) on whether (by incredible co-incidence of course) Scotland Yard, that's Andy and the crew will make yet another big announcement/get their faces in the UK media just as the Lisbon Trial resumes in September.

What odds can be placed on this?

Oooh, blimey, it would be neck and neck all the way.  I just don't see how a whitewash could be achieved, its why this case is so vexing!

Justformaddie wrote:I still find it hard to believe that in this day and age anyone or everyone in the police force doesn't have the heart or courage to stand up to doctors who neglected their young children, and the worst possible outcome has happened because of that neglect. Cover ups that's happened before are now being brought into the open, why would anyone want to risk all of this coming out in the future? And it will sooner or later, just as were all seeing now. Can you imagine the uproar not only with poor maddie but all of those who donated early on? Of what the mcs have done with misleading the world and what they've gained? The world is waking up from this bull and they won't be happy at all for being fooled. To be honest, all I want is maddie to be found and laid to rest in peace and for the people responsible to be brought to justice, IMO it's fair to want that for a nearly four year old child and it's not much to ask of any police force to just do their job right, just like the man who never even met her but who has a heart, Sir Goncalo Amaral. All IMO   

Ps I would not forget the others who neglected their babies either!

Take a look at that sentence and relate it to Clarence Mitchell, the man who promoted the McCanns in less than a heartbeat, controlled what came out in the media, worked for the Labour Party and is now a Conservative prospective candidate whilst concurrently (unless he states otherwise) working for the McCanns.

Things that make you go mmmmm.

For the most part I completely agree with Cristobell's post and generally stay positive that this is all part of a long game and justice will finally come.

But like so many things with this case there are many aspects that don't make any real sense whichever angle you come at them from, and I can see it from the other side, especially recently with things like the cover ups of historic paedophilia which seem to only be the tip of the iceberg.

I try to always return to the facts as PeterMac often lays out such as the evidence of the dogs.  The combination of the recent faith in them during the searches and the strange outburst by GM in court regarding them keeps me positive.

aquila wrote:

Justformaddie wrote:I still find it hard to believe that in this day and age anyone or everyone in the police force doesn't have the heart or courage to stand up to doctors who neglected their young children, and the worst possible outcome has happened because of that neglect. Cover ups that's happened before are now being brought into the open, why would anyone want to risk all of this coming out in the future? And it will sooner or later, just as were all seeing now. Can you imagine the uproar not only with poor maddie but all of those who donated early on? Of what the mcs have done with misleading the world and what they've gained? The world is waking up from this bull and they won't be happy at all for being fooled. To be honest, all I want is maddie to be found and laid to rest in peace and for the people responsible to be brought to justice, IMO it's fair to want that for a nearly four year old child and it's not much to ask of any police force to just do their job right, just like the man who never even met her but who has a heart, Sir Goncalo Amaral. All IMO   

Ps I would not forget the others who neglected their babies either!

Take a look at that sentence and relate it to Clarence Mitchell, the man who promoted the McCanns in less than a heartbeat, controlled what came out in the media, worked for the Labour Party and is now a Conservative prospective candidate whilst concurrently (unless he states otherwise) working for the McCanns.

Things that make you go mmmmm.

Your right, but ofcourse, Mitchell was just doing his job eh? Highly paid too, just wish the police would do theirs just as good 

Justformaddie wrote:

aquila wrote:

Justformaddie wrote:I still find it hard to believe that in this day and age anyone or everyone in the police force doesn't have the heart or courage to stand up to doctors who neglected their young children, and the worst possible outcome has happened because of that neglect. Cover ups that's happened before are now being brought into the open, why would anyone want to risk all of this coming out in the future? And it will sooner or later, just as were all seeing now. Can you imagine the uproar not only with poor maddie but all of those who donated early on? Of what the mcs have done with misleading the world and what they've gained? The world is waking up from this bull and they won't be happy at all for being fooled. To be honest, all I want is maddie to be found and laid to rest in peace and for the people responsible to be brought to justice, IMO it's fair to want that for a nearly four year old child and it's not much to ask of any police force to just do their job right, just like the man who never even met her but who has a heart, Sir Goncalo Amaral. All IMO   

Ps I would not forget the others who neglected their babies either!

Take a look at that sentence and relate it to Clarence Mitchell, the man who promoted the McCanns in less than a heartbeat, controlled what came out in the media, worked for the Labour Party and is now a Conservative prospective candidate whilst concurrently (unless he states otherwise) working for the McCanns.

Things that make you go mmmmm.

Your right, but ofcourse, Mitchell was just doing his job eh? Highly paid too, just wish the police would do theirs just as good 

Clarence Mitchell was doing his job? Yes he was. It depends which 'job' we're talking about and who he was working for doesn't it?

aquila wrote:How about running a book (I'm not a gambler so I hope I got that term correct) on whether (by incredible co-incidence of course) Scotland Yard, that's Andy and the crew will make yet another big announcement/get their faces in the UK media just as the Lisbon Trial resumes in September.

What odds can be placed on this?

DCI Redwood's got an uncanny knack for such 'coincidences' hasn't he? I believe his dramatic appearance just as the Lisbon trial resumes in September, is a dead cert!

I'm still firmly in the 'whitewash' camp.

I am pessimistic about the outcome. However, a few weeks ago I was on holiday in  a Mark Warner resort (Not PdL). One evening in the bar conversation turned to the MM disappearance. Similar demographic to the one the McCs aspire to - ie affluent MC. Interestingly to begin with, people claimed not to know much about the case, but as confidence grew, it turned out that several were aware of the dogs, and also that the McCs had a fund which was not a charity and were critical of that (tentatively to begin with, and then more confidently as it transpired that all were thinking the same.) The fact of the dogs, everyone agreed, showed  (in the groups opinion - about 8-9 people) either that MM died in  the apartment, and that there was a coverup, or that she wandered out, was found injured and brought back and died in the apartment... So the dogs 'evidence' when known, does appear to convince people - a few more were informed that evening. Maybe Why GM is (IMO) so desperate to diss the dogs?

pennylane wrote:

aquila wrote:How about running a book (I'm not a gambler so I hope I got that term correct) on whether (by incredible co-incidence of course) Scotland Yard, that's Andy and the crew will make yet another big announcement/get their faces in the UK media just as the Lisbon Trial resumes in September.

What odds can be placed on this?

DCI Redwood's got an uncanny knack for such 'coincidences' hasn't he? I believe his dramatic appearance just as the Lisbon trial resumes in September, is a dead cert!

I'm still firmly in the 'whitewash' camp.

I'm sticking a tenner on this dead cert. I'm sending it to GA's fund.

aquila wrote:

pennylane wrote:

aquila wrote:How about running a book (I'm not a gambler so I hope I got that term correct) on whether (by incredible co-incidence of course) Scotland Yard, that's Andy and the crew will make yet another big announcement/get their faces in the UK media just as the Lisbon Trial resumes in September.

What odds can be placed on this?

DCI Redwood's got an uncanny knack for such 'coincidences' hasn't he? I believe his dramatic appearance just as the Lisbon trial resumes in September, is a dead cert!

I'm still firmly in the 'whitewash' camp.

I'm sticking a tenner on this dead cert. I'm sending it to GA's fund.

Win win.