Re: Leave No Stone Unturned

by Verdi 02.09.22 16:01

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I refer not to the police because it's their job but the cyber sleuths, when trawling for mobile phone information - private information, the McCann's and their friends had the use of mobile phones donated by a well wisher, it would appear. Personally I don't agree with members of the public probing other peoples privacy, it's an intrusion and can lead to mistaken identity and/or all sorts of other potential damages to an individual.

When used, there is no way those phones could have been traced back to the the McCanns or whoever else used one or both (err... err...) phones. You buy a phone from a retailer, get a SIM card and top it up as and when necessary - all without personal identification. Then you can lose your phone, I've seen a number of occasions when someone walks away leaving their phone behind - luckily for them I'm honest but I can easily imagine someone who is not so honest walking off with their find. You can let someone else use your phone, or make a call for you, I've also done this many times. In short, it might be possible to get a vague idea of where and when a particular mobile phone was used but it's impossible to know who used it.

Not to say I think the phone records should be ignored per se, at least not the information recorded by the official police force, however I feel it to be very irregular to use phone evidence in a court of law without corroborating evidence. Frankly I don't see how such unreliable evidence (if indeed it can even be referred to as evidence) could be acceptable as stand alone evidence, possibly leading to a prosecution.

Not withstanding, David Payne's rogatory interview taken in April 2008, where the mobile phone issue is covered..

1485 "And who's SA'

Reply "Err he is err my, Fiona's sister LW, that's her husband.'

1485 "And what sort of a relationship do you have with him''

Reply "Err a very good relationship. He is err someone that I've known for many years, we've been to their wedding, they came to our wedding, and err he's you know a very good friend.'

1485 "The same yeah. Okay, we'll move on, this is a small number and it, it is ***.'

Reply "So that's a local number''

1485 "I think''

Reply "Yeah, I mean err it may well have been SA gave us a contact of someone that was a friend of the family in Portugal who err could get us mobile phones because Kate and Gerry you know hadn't got any contact, you know way of contacting, their batteries were running out or something like that so SAhad basically said err you know there's, there's these people that we know there and you know that could have been it.'

1485 "Or, because then there were two text messages sent about half past, about ten o' clock on the Friday evening to that number.'

Reply "Oh to that number, well that wouldn't make sense.'

1485 "No.'

Reply "Err''

1485 "From that number to your number.'

Reply "Oh, it could have been then, if they text me saying oh I hope everything's alright, you've got the phones and everything, that's the only thing.'

1485 "In Portugal''

Reply "The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person who contacted me which I didn't mention while I was at the Police Station was one of the Portuguese err newspapers and err you know asking, you know for comments and err so that could have been what the, you know, the number. I spoke, I did speak to the other, the friends of Simon ALDRIDGE'S who you know who kindly bought the phones and they actually bought the phones to the Portim' Police Station and I went downstairs and got the phones and then err brought them back upstairs. Err in terms of you know whether I, we spoke to them on the next day sorry, was that the question''

1485 "Well you spoke to them on the next day, the next day yeah that Madeleine went missing, on the fourth.'

Reply "Right.'

01:00:40 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.

01:02:37 DC MESSIAH re-enters the room.

1485 "You thought we'd finished didn't you.'

Reply "I know.'

1485 "(Laughs)'

Reply "Not quite.'

1485 "Not quite, no. Not long now to go. Okay, I'm just gonna go over these, this phone issue again.'

Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "I just, there's just some areas that I've been asked to point out, or been asked to speak to you about.'

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Who lent you these phones that SA had organised for you''

Reply "Err I mean, S brother err is a gentleman called Nand N's wife N had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate's phone's nearly ran out, we're sat, we don't know how long we're gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.'

01:04:02 1485 "And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive''

Reply "Err when did we get the phones' When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who's brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can't remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn't got any other, anything there, so.'

1485 "And what phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they were''

Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.'

1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there''

Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.'

1485 "Yeah.'

01:05:33 Reply "So err yeah.'

1485 "So the two phones, you've kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry''

Reply "Kate and Gerry yeah.'

1485 "And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone''

Reply "I don't, no, no.'

1485 "Where are these phones now''

Reply "Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again''

1485 "With whom''

Reply "With Kate and Gerry.'

1485 "So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had''

Reply "Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that's rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I've got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn't work so I could well have got the second phone.'

1485 "So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address''

Reply "Err that is a strong possibility.'

1485 "So two Samsung phones.'

Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.'

Reply "Yeah.'
1485 "The other one you may well have at your home address.'

Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "Did you use the phones often''

Reply "Not''

1485 "In Portugal''

Reply "Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn't have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn't often, we'd perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn't a kind of religious oh we'll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.'

1485 "Yeah.'

01:07:23 Reply "Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn't have a phone either so you know, so it's like she had the use of the other phone as well.'

1485 "Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone''

Reply "I'd say Fiona.'

1485 "Fiona''

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "And has it been used since it's been in the UK''

Reply "No.'

1485 "Okay, okay.'

Reply "And I'm just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can't remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it's supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can't remember.'

1485 "Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then''

Reply "I don't, I don't think we did, I don't think I did. I don't think I could work out how to do it to be honest.'

1485 "So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them''

Reply "They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.'

1485 "Just wait there a second I'll just (inaudible).'

Reply "Okay.'

by Guest 03.09.22 11:17

nothing new in those laws, germany has already had for inland use a lot of stronger regulations, and even in portugal it could have been on other points of law able to gather such information and store it on for further use.

usually when you have to make use of legal material from abroad, there has first to be permission from your own government to use it, and also a verdict from a judge from the original country that this material is of the accepted standard for use in that country itself, than the country that want to use it had to ask their own investigation judges for a verdict that it could be legally used.

but it could very well be the ground why germany want to have that caller as a witness. they also could go beyond that data, by using the officer who did the find of that number much earlier, when no extra restrictions by law and eu guidance did matter to fill that gap.

when the caller also had use of a pre paid or pay as you go phone in use at that moment, there would never be a bill to prove the call was made, without te data or an by now very old device that still has it on it, and yes that can still be of use. the caller can only talk from hearsay and impressions, that will be never hard evidence. but the data earlier worked on, could be handled by the officer that did exactly that. just like we did these kind of things in the old days before modern facilities.

in itself it never can be hard evidence someone did something, only that said person was in traveling distance of place later classified as crime scene.

if phoning, as in receiving or making a call in or near pdl or 5a was to be seen as evidence there was actually a very long list of possible suspects there. most actually did told that informal and formal.

the weak link in using that caller as a witness is, that witness has to declare that it was indeed him/her in conversation with the culprit of choice, and that can sounds okay, but is never to be proven. credibility is always a problem. so they have a need for information exchanged that could be traced.

and with this quality of lawyers in a case, you can hardly use other standards for this caller as a witness, as they are using against the possible alibi that is been under discussion.

and that calling out in the german crime program was of course never about just a phone call, they could have got that question out without naming a case with it. by naming the case , they did know it would get around the world, and a chance to easy reach out to people who do want to declare something else.
it is not news that phone data are not that hard as we like to place someone at a specific place. so in itself it can hardly have been a sound reason to go out in the open. but just a minor lead was usable to try and fish the public for more, for that it worked a bit to good.

the problem with the 'not really new guidelines' only sits with all not for crime solving purpose other databases with dna, fingerprints or other personal and private information. and in most cases we already had a check in place so not needed for a case personal and private information had to set apart and later be wiped of the archives. there was no reason to keep it on, only wasting a lot of space, even on computers before the clouds got there. but each country and service has their own protocol for that.

and these mass grabbings could also be eating up a lot of time, and the information in it, is nice to have access too but it would be better, if we could have a database for information about convicted criminals equal in threshold to dna and fingerprint storing, so you could only check numbers and other data coming up in the investigation could be just checked to what is already known of criminals.

it is also not the only way information that gets to an investigation, that has the 'can not be used in this form' stamps on it. so as soon as you do know the information, it would not be that hard to find another way to use as access.

also before the germans go to court with this case, there could be already repairs done. it could take years before they got there, they are not in a hurry, as they say.

by joeyxoto 09.09.22 10:29

Hey all, long time lurker here but also long time researcher!

I came across something on the companies house formation of the company and wasn't sure if this had been picked up.

I cannot post links yet, but it can be found on Companies House, search the organisation "No Stone Left Unturned" and go to the first public record of the company.

You'll see that the date of abduction is written as April 7th. I'm sure this can be seen as a mistake because it was May 7th, however, given the fact that there is a large emphasis on April 29th being the true date of reference, whomever was getting this document created may have made that mistake from confusion, i.e. they wrote April because they knew it was April, but meant to write May.

Anyways, just a random observation and could be nothing.

There is also a paragraph I found interesting which talks about how the funds are to be used, it reads:

"...seek to influence public opinion and make representations to seek and influence governmental and other bodies and institutions" - make of that what you will! I find it an odd statement and a strange way to "spend money".

by Verdi 09.09.22 13:29

Hello joeyxot and welcome

to CMOMM.

I think you are referring to this..

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blah

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If you read in context you will note..

3.2: If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom Portugal or elsewhere.

The April entry is clearly an error, in the interest of accuracy the document actually reads 3rd April 2007, not the 7th April as you say.

by **PeterMac** 10.09.22 7:25

Given that it was drawn up by the leading Solicitors and Accountants in London who specialise in Charities, it is another extraordinary lack of attention to detail, given the importance of that date in the scheme of things.

We remember the correspondence in which I brought up the issue of gross lack of "due Diligence" in the appointment of the various Private detective agencies, and their outraged response, shortly before the accountants HaysMcIintrye withdrew suddenly without having drawn up final accounts . . .

by joeyxoto 11.09.22 15:25

Having been a lurker here for some time, I've often seen the dismissal of the idea that high level elite trafficking rings may have had an involvement in this case.

Whilst it's not wise to throw wild ideas around without evidence, I'd like to point out a book I read last year that I found both terrifying (as a parent) but eye opening to discover a world that I was previously completely blind to.

The book is named "Pedo Empire", with contribution (and part written) by ex CIA director David Steele.

The book dives deep into the world of child trafficking, and explains how parents sell their children into elite trafficking rings with protection from government agencies. The book dives into occult practices and other areas that I'm sure a conspiracy theory would find fascinating.

Feel free to check it out; it has made me ponder on the vital factor that for me is still unexplained:

Why so much protection for the McCann's.

I'm working on a film at the moment and would love some understanding or counter arguments to some posed theories.

1. Is the idea that John & Tony Podesta being in Portugal at the time of the disappearance widely contested? If so, can somebody provide me context and evidence that they were not present?

2. It is my understand that the McCann's had visited Clem Freud a few months after the case, is there any counter to this or is this validated from Kate's book?

3. The e-fits released closely resemble both John and Tony, what is the consensus generally about this?

by Verdi 11.09.22 20:33

This matter has of course been widely discussed here on CMOMM, as you may or may not be aware. I have no wish to rekindle such bizarre baseless theorizing here on the forum so I'll leave it to you to find for yourself. All you need do is type Podesta in the forum's search engine and all will be revealed.

This is not the first time you mentioned your film making project since joining the forum a few days ago, I'm rather concerned about the possibility of misquotes if citing the forum in your production release, or using the forum as an information base.

Such as the Podesta brothers is but internet rumour with no substance to take it forward.

By all means use whatever material you like for your own production, it is of course your prerogative so to do but do not use CMOMM and/or MMRG without 100% assurance that the forum and it's members past and present, will not be compromised, misquoted nor quoted out of context - even then not without authority.

I hope you understand my concern here. From what you say, you are here to pick our brains so to speak, you've hit on the right place and I'm sure we are all flattered, in many respects but over the many years the forum has shown how opinions differ widely on the many aspects of the case. Thus it's not a good idea to present something in a film you anticipate will draw the attention of thousands of viewers unless you know it to be 100% accurate and true to form.

Personally from the perspective of the forum, I'm not at all happy about this and where it might lead. By all means use the forum as a reference source, that's essentially why we are here but targeting individual members to participate in something they know nothing about makes me very uneasy. Indeed, maybe a better way forward would be to link this forum to your social media profile, whatever it may. Then your audience could read for themselves and draw their own conclusion.

Also, if you're looking to pick our brains, it would be helpful if you stay consistent with posting on the open forum. It makes it very difficult to get the overall picture of anything if part the work is conducted by private messaging.

We all aim for the same goal here on CMOMM, even if opinions differ on the detail - there is no need for any member to resort to private messaging or email contact.

I've already given links to the videos of Richard D Hall and PeterMac's free e-book, I think here it's important to mention the translated PJ files. The documentation is essential to get an overall idea of the basics before embarking on a journey of discovery..

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Whatever you do, please be mindful of the forum's reputation and the integrity of it's members.

Thanks.

by joeyxoto 11.09.22 20:46

Hi there,

The purpose of the questions is to get more information, not to quote a forum or its members.

I disagree with regards to messaging actually, I've contacted authorities on the case (which I'm not, hence the questions), and the very reason I've done that is to ensure that I'm getting the best information, but also to ensure that the individuals are happy for me quote their research.

I'll not post again, and will just read.

Thanks.

by joeyxoto 11.09.22 20:59

On another note, the purpose of the film is to make the information more accessible.

Sending people to a forum to spend a long time reading up, cross referencing and what not, whilst a sensible thing to do, is not the way to distribute and widen an important story like this. Accessibility is important.

I must also correct you, in saying "I know nothing about" the case, wouldn't be accurate. I've mentioned I've followed this story for some time, but equally wouldn't say I'm the authority on the subject, hence the desire to connect with the individuals that are. That would be the sensible thing to do, in order to ensure the production is as accurate as it can be.

A part of that means I'll ask questions. That's what anyone researching will need to do.

Previous documentaries that have been produced on the topic, whilst extremely helpful, wouldn't hit a mainstream audience just based on presentation alone. Whilst I appreciate "presentation doesn't matter", it's important to create something that's going to capture interest. After all, the goal for me personally is to spread an important message.

Anyways, I'll keep my questions at bay.

I would like to share the script prior to me producing anything to ensure the story, accuracy and everything else is on point and correct. That's my plan and hopefully I may have the support of the forum to bring that together.

This isn't a project I'm being paid for, and I'm simply doing what I can to help create something that may hopefully have an impact on this case.

by Verdi 12.09.22 1:17

joeyxoto wrote:Hi there,

The purpose of the questions is to get more information, not to quote a forum or its members.

I disagree with regards to messaging actually, I've contacted authorities on the case (which I'm not, hence the questions), and the very reason I've done that is to ensure that I'm getting the best information, but also to ensure that the individuals are happy for me quote their research.

I'll not post again, and will just read.

Thanks.

joeyxoto wrote:Anyways, I would like to use this forum as a place to post about the film, the structure of the film, and have your involvement and help in creating this project. Everyone involved of course will be credited, but this is a voluntary project, I will not be selling the film - and it's purely for free distribution only.

We are doing this for Madeleine and for justice.

Please let me know if you can help, and if this forum can be a place for me to share my progress on the project

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For the record I have never said you know nothing about the case - where did that come from?

Nor do I wish you to stop posting - where did that come from? On the contrary, I wish you would post on the open forum. Your rationale is noted but as I've already said, anything anyone would need to know is documented on the open forum where we are open and honest - it's all here for all to see.

You wont find any hidden secrets that haven't been shared publicly.

by Verdi 12.09.22 12:57

For the benefit of members and guest readers alike, I have been contemplating drawing together all the most important factors of CMOMM/MMRG research in one place to relieve the tedium of navigating the forum, on reflection it's not really necessary as the information is already plain to see across the forum. I don't want to clutter the forum with yet another duplicate thread - besides, I like to take members and readers on a journey around the forum. A tour of discovery!

Here is one such important sub-forum that should be of interest to you..

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Whilst I'm here, would you have any objection to my creating a single thread for you to house all your questions, observations and work progress, rather than you having the trouble of starting a new thread on every point of interest? I think this way forward would be beneficial to you and the reader.

Please let me know, if you agree I will get to work immediately, well almost immediately.

by crusader 12.09.22 13:26

What a very good idea.

by joeyxoto 12.09.22 14:07

I was wondering if anybody had seen the Netflix series "The Cry".

I finished watching this a few days ago and I was very surprised with the similarities in the story to the Madeleine McCann case. When the producer was asked if this was based on the Maddie case, he said it was "inspired" by the events in Portugal.

I highly recommend a watch! It's refreshing to see somebody in the media creating something that challenges the story, albeit indirectly through a "fictional" story.

The story is about a high-flyer and his wife who seemingly have a child that is quite difficult to look after, who are using medicine to keep the child quiet during a trip. I won't spoil the rest, but you probably already know what might happen.

by Liz Eagles 12.09.22 14:52

Is it available on any other network. I refuse to pay for Netflix.

by Verdi 12.09.22 15:56

Many major video streaming platforms have The Cry catalogued. It all depends on your geo location which streaming service you use, or subscribe to.

As to be expected, the show was discussed here on CMOMM at length at the time of it's release. Again if you use the forum search function no doubt you will find it hidden somewhere in the archives.

I've watched the production a few times, never could I see any remote similarity with the case of missing Madeleine McCann. It was however a good gossip feed for a while.

You've started another thread joeyxoto - would you please reply to my question a.s.a.p.

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Thanks.

by joeyxoto 12.09.22 16:09

I don't know if I'm using the search wrong, but I didn't see any related topics about this specific series.

I'll take a look at the other thread.

by joeyxoto 12.09.22 16:14

Verdi wrote:For the benefit of members and guest readers alike, I have been contemplating drawing together all the most important factors of CMOMM/MMRG research in one place to relieve the tedium of navigating the forum, on reflection it's not really necessary as the information is already plain to see across the forum. I don't want to clutter the forum with yet another duplicate thread - besides, I like to take members and readers on a journey around the forum. A tour of discovery!

Here is one such important sub-forum that should be of interest to you..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Whilst I'm here, would you have any objection to my creating a single thread for you to house all your questions, observations and work progress, rather than you having the trouble of starting a new thread on every point of interest? I think this way forward would be beneficial to you and the reader.

Please let me know, if you agree I will get to work immediately, well almost immediately.

Hey there,

I think it would be very useful to have a thread, as I can use it to share my progress and also get help from anyone willing to provide any additional information shoot I need it.

I appreciate that.

Thanks

by Verdi 12.09.22 16:51

No it's not you, I've had a look myself and couldn't find anything.

Quite frequently subjects are raised and discussed on an irrelevant thread, hence I'm always banging on about keeping on topic roll

.

I'll dig around the back of my mind to see if I can remember where it might have been discussed - I might be some time.

by Verdi 12.09.22 17:06

joeyxoto wrote:Hey there,

I think it would be very useful to have a thread, as I can use it to share my progress and also get help from anyone willing to provide any additional information shoot I need it.

I appreciate that.

Thanks

Here you go!

I will move over all your previous posts in due course.

OK?

As I can't adjust the date and time of past posts it might appear a bit muddled at first but it'll soon improve once you get going.

by CaKeLoveR 12.09.22 17:16

Does The Cry bear a resemblance to A Cry in the DarK? That was about the dingo baby case, which may have been mentioned here.

by joeyxoto 12.09.22 17:33

CaKeLoveR wrote:Does The Cry bear a resemblance to A Cry in the DarK? That was about the dingo baby case, which may have been mentioned here.

No, this series is very very similar to the Maddie case. It's almost like the producer/director knew he couldn't get away with making a MSM story, so decided to make it a "fictional" story that essentially is the same story, with some small differences.

What's beautiful about the story is that it reels you into believing the parents are actually innocent at first. You don't expect it, and I suspect in the early weeks of the case with Maddie, we all felt that sympathy and panic for the parents as well.

Then the series takes a twist. I enjoyed it alot.