The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Leave No Stone Unturned

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Leave No Stone Unturned - Page 20 Empty Re: Leave No Stone Unturned

Post by Verdi 02.09.22 16:01

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I refer not to the police because it's their job but the cyber sleuths, when trawling for mobile phone information - private information, the McCann's and their friends had the use of mobile phones donated by a well wisher, it would appear. Personally I don't agree with members of the public probing other peoples privacy, it's an intrusion and can lead to mistaken identity and/or all sorts of other potential damages to an individual.

When used, there is no way those phones could have been traced back to the the McCanns or whoever else used one or both (err... err...) phones. You buy a phone from a retailer, get a SIM card and top it up as and when necessary - all without personal identification. Then you can lose your phone, I've seen a number of occasions when someone walks away leaving their phone behind - luckily for them I'm honest but I can easily imagine someone who is not so honest walking off with their find. You can let someone else use your phone, or make a call for you, I've also done this many times. In short, it might be possible to get a vague idea of where and when a particular mobile phone was used but it's impossible to know who used it.

Not to say I think the phone records should be ignored per se, at least not the information recorded by the official police force, however I feel it to be very irregular to use phone evidence in a court of law without corroborating evidence. Frankly I don't see how such unreliable evidence (if indeed it can even be referred to as evidence) could be acceptable as stand alone evidence, possibly leading to a prosecution.

Not withstanding, David Payne's rogatory interview taken in April 2008, where the mobile phone issue is covered..

1485 "And who's SA'

Reply "Err he is err my, Fiona's sister LW, that's her husband.'

1485 "And what sort of a relationship do you have with him''

Reply "Err a very good relationship. He is err someone that I've known for many years, we've been to their wedding, they came to our wedding, and err he's you know a very good friend.'

1485 "The same yeah. Okay, we'll move on, this is a small number and it, it is ***.'

Reply "So that's a local number''

1485 "I think''

Reply "Yeah, I mean err it may well have been SA gave us a contact of someone that was a friend of the family in Portugal who err could get us mobile phones because Kate and Gerry you know hadn't got any contact, you know way of contacting, their batteries were running out or something like that so SAhad basically said err you know there's, there's these people that we know there and you know that could have been it.'

1485 "Or, because then there were two text messages sent about half past, about ten o' clock on the Friday evening to that number.'

Reply "Oh to that number, well that wouldn't make sense.'

1485 "No.'

Reply "Err''

1485 "From that number to your number.'

Reply "Oh, it could have been then, if they text me saying oh I hope everything's alright, you've got the phones and everything, that's the only thing.'

1485 "In Portugal''

Reply "The, I mean, the other, there was a, the other person who contacted me which I didn't mention while I was at the Police Station was one of the Portuguese err newspapers and err you know asking, you know for comments and err so that could have been what the, you know, the number. I spoke, I did speak to the other, the friends of Simon ALDRIDGE'S who you know who kindly bought the phones and they actually bought the phones to the Portim' Police Station and I went downstairs and got the phones and then err brought them back upstairs. Err in terms of you know whether I, we spoke to them on the next day sorry, was that the question''

1485 "Well you spoke to them on the next day, the next day yeah that Madeleine went missing, on the fourth.'

Reply "Right.'

01:00:40 Male knocks at the door, DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.

01:02:37 DC MESSIAH re-enters the room.

1485 "You thought we'd finished didn't you.'

Reply "I know.'

1485 "(Laughs)'

Reply "Not quite.'

1485 "Not quite, no. Not long now to go. Okay, I'm just gonna go over these, this phone issue again.'

Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "I just, there's just some areas that I've been asked to point out, or been asked to speak to you about.'

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "Who lent you these phones that SA had organised for you''

Reply "Err I mean, S brother err is a gentleman called Nand N's wife N had got friends out in the Algarve and they were just you know basic people who were just willing to help us in whatever capacity it was, whether we wanted a room for the night or anything and they asked is there anything we can do, err whether they could do, and err and that was, you know, that was one thing we said well actually you know err Kate's phone's nearly ran out, we're sat, we don't know how long we're gonna be at the Police Station you know could, you know, can they, you know is there any way of getting phones to us just so that you know, we can, for communication. Err and err so that was, that was a capacity really err of people.'

01:04:02 1485 "And where were these phones, when did these phones arrive''

Reply "Err when did we get the phones' When we were at the Police Station, err you know as, you know I just asked whether I could just pop downstairs there was someone who's brought us phones and they said yeah, so I quickly popped downstairs, got the phones, and took them back into the Police Station. Err I can't remember if there was any power in them when we opened them up but err so then that was, you know, so the phones were just, you know because we hadn't got any other, anything there, so.'

1485 "And what phones were they' Do you remember what sort of, what make they were''

Reply "Err they were Samsung phones, err and I think they were Vodaphone SIM cards. Err the actual model, I can't tell you the Samsung phone but they were, something like the Samsung three hundred, something like that.'

1485 "Yeah, how many phones were there''

Reply "There was, there was two err and we ended up, err again, we ended up keeping one and Kate and Gerry had one, I think we gave the second one to Kate and Gerry as well after a while but we were err you know because they'd got credit put on to them so we were just using those phones rather than run up the expense of our own phones.'

1485 "Yeah.'

01:05:33 Reply "So err yeah.'

1485 "So the two phones, you've kept one and gave one to Kate and Gerry''

Reply "Kate and Gerry yeah.'

1485 "And do you have the numbers of those phones in your phone''

Reply "I don't, no, no.'

1485 "Where are these phones now''

Reply "Err as far as I am aware that they, you know, remained in Portugal, again''

1485 "With whom''

Reply "With Kate and Gerry.'

1485 "So Kate and Gerry took possession of that second phone which you had''

Reply "Well, they certainly kept the first one, the second one, the second one, sorry, no I think that's rubbish. I think I, I may well have got the, I might have got the second phone. Actually I've got a sneaky feeling when I got home I tried the UK SIM card in it and it didn't work so I could well have got the second phone.'

1485 "So is it likely that this second phone is at your home address''

Reply "Err that is a strong possibility.'

1485 "So two Samsung phones.'

Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "One is, to your knowledge, still with Kate and Gerry.'

Reply "Yeah.'
1485 "The other one you may well have at your home address.'

Reply "Yeah, yeah.'

1485 "Did you use the phones often''

Reply "Not''

1485 "In Portugal''

Reply "Not a great deal no, no, it was, it was, first of all you know we didn't have any numbers in them already and then with being a Portuguese phone you know it was just a bit more difficult so we, if we ever used them, I mean which wasn't often, we'd perhaps call Kate and Gerry using the Portuguese phone, but it wasn't a kind of religious oh we'll just use the, that Portuguese phone to err you know establish communication.'

1485 "Yeah.'

01:07:23 Reply "Err you know and the other reason that we, we had the, one of the phones is because Fiona didn't have a phone either so you know, so it's like she had the use of the other phone as well.'

1485 "Right, so out of the two of you then, who predominantly used that phone''

Reply "I'd say Fiona.'

1485 "Fiona''

Reply "Yeah.'

1485 "And has it been used since it's been in the UK''

Reply "No.'

1485 "Okay, okay.'

Reply "And I'm just trying to think you know how much, you know the, the, I can't remember you know obviously we were there for four weeks after but when the actual credit ran out, because I remember the credit running out and not being able to actually put anymore on even though it's supposed to be quite straight forward but again, you know whether that was after, you know, three weeks of being out there or whatever I can't remember.'

1485 "Yeah, how many times do you think you topped it up then''

Reply "I don't, I don't think we did, I don't think I did. I don't think I could work out how to do it to be honest.'

1485 "So when both of them arrived both of them had credit on them''

Reply "They put, I think they put, I think err I think they put forty pound credit or forty euros, you know, which seemed to last a lot longer than the amount of credit we were (inaudible) we were using our own err mobile phones.'

1485 "Just wait there a second I'll just (inaudible).'

Reply "Okay.'

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Leave No Stone Unturned - Page 20 Empty Re: Leave No Stone Unturned

Post by onehand 03.09.22 11:17

nothing new in those laws, germany has already had for inland use a lot of stronger regulations, and even in portugal it could have been on other points of law able to gather such information and store it on for further use. 

usually when you have to make use of legal material from abroad, there has first to be permission from your own government to use it, and also a verdict from a judge from the original country that this material is of the accepted standard for use in that country itself, than the country that want to use it had to ask their own investigation judges for a verdict that it could be legally used. 

but it could very well be the ground why germany want to have that caller as a witness. they also  could go beyond that data, by using the officer who did the find of that number much earlier, when no extra restrictions by law and eu guidance did matter to fill that gap. 

when the caller also had use of a pre paid or pay as you go phone in use at that moment, there would never be a bill to prove the call was made, without te data or an by now very old device that still has it on it, and yes that can still be of use. the caller can only talk from hearsay and impressions, that will be never hard evidence. but the data earlier worked on, could be handled by the officer that did exactly that. just like we did these kind of things in the old days before modern facilities. 

in itself it never can be hard evidence someone did something, only that said person was in traveling distance of place later classified as crime scene. 

if phoning, as in receiving or making a call in or near pdl or 5a was to be seen as evidence there was actually a very long list of possible suspects there. most actually did told that informal and formal. 

the weak link in using that caller as a witness is, that witness has to declare that it was indeed him/her in conversation with the culprit of choice, and that can sounds okay, but is never to be proven. credibility is always a problem. so they have a need for information exchanged that could be traced. 

and with this quality of lawyers in a case, you can hardly use other standards for this caller as a witness, as they are using against the possible alibi that is been under discussion. 

and that calling out in the german crime program was of course never about just a phone call, they could have got that question out without naming a case with it. by naming the case , they did know it would get around the world, and a chance to easy reach out to people who do want to declare something else. 
it is not news that phone data are not that hard as we like to place someone at a specific place. so in itself it can hardly have been a sound reason to go out in the open. but just a minor lead was usable to try and fish the public for more, for that it worked a bit to good. 

the problem with the 'not really new guidelines' only sits with all not for crime solving purpose other databases with dna, fingerprints or other personal and private information. and in most cases we already had a check in place so not needed for a case personal and private information had to set apart and later be wiped of the archives. there was no reason to keep it on, only wasting a lot of space, even on computers before the clouds got there. but each country and service has their own protocol for that. 

and these mass grabbings could also be eating up a lot of time, and the information in it, is nice to have access too but it would be better, if we could have a database for information about convicted criminals equal in threshold to dna and fingerprint storing, so you could only check numbers and other data coming up in the investigation could be just checked to what is already known of criminals. 

it is also not the only way information that gets to an investigation, that has the 'can not be used in this form' stamps on it. so as soon as you do know the information, it would not be that hard to find another way to use as access. 

also before the germans go to court with this case, there could be already repairs done. it could take years before they got there, they are not in a hurry, as they say.
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Leave No Stone Unturned - Page 20 Empty Re: Leave No Stone Unturned

Post by Verdi 19.09.22 16:59

Having a rummage about looking for any evidence of Gerry McCann speaking on the subject of sedation, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak, I happened upon this little corker, an old press report from October 2007.  You know, after the McCann's had arrived safely back in the UK.  Snipped:

Dossier: Kate and Gerry McCann have compiled a file of evidence to show they were not involved in Madeleine's disappearance

The Policia Judiciaria have suggested Madeleine died as the result of an accidental drugs overdose and that the McCanns, both doctors, covered up the death to protect their careers.

But a source close to the McCanns said they have now gathered irrefutable proof the children were never drugged.

The Standard understands samples of hair were given to a forensic team hired by the McCanns' lawyers for analysis. The toxicology tests performed on their hair are understood to show no traces of sedatives. The test results are part of a dossier of evidence compiled by the McCanns' legal team at law firm Kingsley Napley, to show they were not involved in their daughter's disappearance from their Algarve holiday apartment on 3 May.

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I wonder if this named 'dossier' ever saw the light of day ....

waiting

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Leave No Stone Unturned - Page 20 Empty Re: Leave No Stone Unturned

Post by Verdi 20.09.22 17:11


In a statement issued through their lawyers, the couple said: "The focus is now rightly on the search for Madeleine and her abductors.

"We are grateful for the ongoing work by the British, German and Portuguese police.

BBC news report 20th September 2022

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Leave No Stone Unturned - Page 20 Empty Re: Leave No Stone Unturned

Post by KDG 25.09.22 5:40

AFAIK, any traces of sedatives would be long gone by October. How convenient.
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