Re: Oscar Pistorius

by Liz Eagles 13.06.16 15:42

skyrocket wrote:@Aquila - not going to argue. My husband is South African. He has a large family and we have many friends. Don't forget most of those over a certain age went through conscription (like Rhodesia) and fought in the border war - I know that's not relevant to the Pistorius's age bracket but like America, SA is a gun culture. I can't believe that there are very many homes which don't possess a fire arm, I can't think of a single one that I know.

Are you saying that you can't think of a single home in South Africa that doesn't contain a gun?

by skyrocket 13.06.16 15:56

@Aquila - that I know.

Infact, changing countries but similar culture - a uni friend of mine from Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) came home from his conscription with a wardrobe full (literally) of hand grenades; guns; and god knows what else. Another rather immature friend from the same country came home after the Rhodesian war and promptly blew up his father's garden shed with explosives he'd brought back with him from the fighting - no idea why. I appreciate times have changed over the last few years and gun laws in SA have been tightened but gun ownership is still very high out there. I doubt that the average man/woman makes a huge show of ownership unless the situation requires it; no-one I know could be described as gun toting.

by Nina 13.06.16 16:02

skyrocket wrote:@Aquila - that I know.

Infact, changing countries but similar culture - a uni friend of mine from Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) came home from his conscription with a wardrobe full (literally) of hand grenades; guns; and god knows what else. Another rather immature friend from the same country came home after the Rhodesian war and promptly blew up his father's garden shed with explosives he'd brought back with him from the fighting - no idea why. I appreciate times have changed over the last few years and gun laws in SA have been tightened but gun ownership is still very high out there. I doubt that the average man/woman makes a huge show of ownership unless the situation requires it; no-one I know could be described as gun toting.

Our ex daughter in law and her mother and sister all carried a taser too as well as a small hand gun.

by skyrocket 13.06.16 16:08

@Nina - yes, it's a different way of life and not one I'd like. Wet and cold weather in the UK are a small price for a safe (and relaxed) environment. Family/friends have moved over here and they tend to go completely the other way - I have to drill it into them to close windows and lock doors when they go out!

by Liz Eagles 13.06.16 16:10

skyrocket wrote:@Aquila - that I know.

Infact, changing countries but similar culture - a uni friend of mine from Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) came home from his conscription with a wardrobe full (literally) of hand grenades; guns; and god knows what else. Another rather immature friend from the same country came home after the Rhodesian war and promptly blew up his father's garden shed with explosives he'd brought back with him from the fighting - no idea why. I appreciate times have changed over the last few years and gun laws in SA have been tightened but gun ownership is still very high out there. I doubt that the average man/woman makes a huge show of ownership unless the situation requires it; no-one I know could be described as gun toting.

I think you're speaking nonsense for the sake of it.

Gun laws have been tightened up in SA? Jeez, the guns were given in to the government/police at that time or did you have a convenient moment of amnesia there.

Guns are owned by South Africans, mad South Africans who have some sense of weird colonial right to carry arms, shoot and kill animals with rifles but let me tell you, South Africans do NOT carry firearms to arrest/disarm human beings. They simply don't do it. South Africans are mostly pissed off that there is no law and order in their country but to shoot someone with a pistol in the glove compartment of their car isn't an option. I can't imagine the consequence of shooting someone as a white person with a 'right to carry arms'. It's bullshit. No-one in South Africa has the right to carry a firearm unless they are police or other authority.

by Liz Eagles 13.06.16 16:17

Nina wrote:
skyrocket wrote:@Aquila - that I know.

Infact, changing countries but similar culture - a uni friend of mine from Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) came home from his conscription with a wardrobe full (literally) of hand grenades; guns; and god knows what else. Another rather immature friend from the same country came home after the Rhodesian war and promptly blew up his father's garden shed with explosives he'd brought back with him from the fighting - no idea why. I appreciate times have changed over the last few years and gun laws in SA have been tightened but gun ownership is still very high out there. I doubt that the average man/woman makes a huge show of ownership unless the situation requires it; no-one I know could be described as gun toting.
Our ex daughter in law and her mother and sister all carried a taser too as well as a small hand gun.

Seriously Nina? they carried guns? what year was this?

I was completely bowled over by the carrying of pepper spray in South Africa and I'm only going back about five years ago. There was no right to carry a gun, and when I was in South Africa tasers were outlawed too.

by Nina 13.06.16 16:24

5/6 years ago aquila.

by Liz Eagles 13.06.16 16:28

South Africa, the lawful/lawless country then.

Did you ask you ex daughter-in-law whether she was licenced to carry a hand gun? because it's illegal in South Africa, and had she used it she would have been jailed.

by skyrocket 13.06.16 16:40

https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/3ggt9v/a_guide_to_gun_ownership_in_south_africa/

'Hey everyone, after some questions and prompting on a post of mine on /r/EDC I decided to post this guide on gun law and ownership in South Africa. You might find it interesting since it's pretty uncommon to hear about anything other than American law on here. I won't be going into the situations under which it is legal to use a firearm for self-defence, since that is a lot more complex than in many other countries. This turned a bit into an AMA, so have a look at a lot of the comments too.
First things first, to own a gun in South Africa you must either be a permanent resident or a citizen. You must have no record of violent crime or violation of the Firearms Control Act 60 of 2000 (referred to as the act from now on). If you have committed a violent crime or violated the act, you must wait five years after such charges before you can apply to review your ban on firearm ownership.
The first step to get a firearm in South Africa is apply for firearms competency. You must undergo evaluation at a training provider which has been certified by the South African Police Service which will evaluate your knowledge of the act and usage of firearms. There are separate tests for each category of firearm you wish to own: pistol, shotgun, bolt action rifles, and carbines (any self-loading long arm). The written tests are quite easy, being open book, and the operating tests even easier, requiring 4/5 shots into a relatively large target at very short range with the weapon in question. It's a bit of a joke, but that's what the law requires. Once this is completed you receive a training certificate which you will later provide with your competency application. There is also a competency for black powder weapons (which are much less regulated), however I am not familiar with that process having never gone through it.
You will also have to provide a document from your regular doctor stating that you do not suffer from depression, any other mental illness which causes altered emotional states, or are undergoing any treatment for emotional instability. You must also provide the police with at least two references of close friends or family who will be interviewed (usually via telephone) to judge that you are of sound and reasonable character without a history of violence. This is not strictly compulsory but in my experience has been generally enforced.
Once you have all this you can go down to your local police station where a Designated Firearms Officer (DFO) will take your fingerprints and submit your application for competency. The waiting period for receiving your competency certificate is approximately six weeks as it is performed at the national police headquarters (in the capitol, Pretoria) and includes background checks.
The certificate you receive is valid for life and a copy must be submitted with each firearm application (you can apply for your first firearm license concurrently with your competency application, reducing the waiting time).
At any time during the previous process (or even before) you can already purchase the firearm you wish to own, however the firearm dealership may not release the weapon to you until you present them with a valid firearms license in your name with matching serial number and calibre to the weapon. The dealer will provide you with a form at purchase containing the particulars of the firearm which you must present to your DFO at your local police station. Your current home address and other firearms you own must be detailed on this form, including a motivation for ownership of the firearm being applied for.
The firearm motivation is endless cause of consternation in the local gun community, a lot of people send 40 page motivations which include local crime statistics and the lengths they've gone through to protect themselves. Yet they still get their applications rejected. Mostly this is a failure to properly study the act and to motivate within its requirements. I've never written more than a page and a half as motivation and have never had a license application rejected.
You will once again have to have your fingerprints taken for the application. You can apply under a number of different license categories for your firearm, which I will now describe:

Self Defence (SD) - Valid for five years, limited to one weapon per person, any pistol, revolver, or shotgun which is not self-loading, licensing a weapon outside these limitations requires extra motivation and limits the license validity to two years
Occasional Sport Shooter (OSS) - Valid for ten years, limited to four per person (three if you poses a self defence license), any pistol, revolver, bolt action rifle, or shotgun which is not self-loading
Dedicated Sport Shooter (DSS) - Valid for ten years, unlimited number of weapons of any type, excluding fully automatic weapons, you must compete in a minimum number of accredited shooting association matches each year to maintain this license
Occasional Hunter (OH) - Identical to OSS
Professional Hunter (PH) - Valid for ten years, any number of long arms (legality of hunting using self-loading weapons differs from province to province), you must be a member of an accredited hunting association and fulfil the requirements of that association for each year to maintain this license
Collector - Valid for ten years, any weapons including small artillery pieces and fully automatic weapons may owned under this license, however you must be part of an accredited collectors association and any weapon you wish to license must be motivated along the "theme" of your collection

When your license expires you must repeat the entire application process, including motivation of ownership (another bone of contention amongst local firearm owners).
Additionally you must provide proof that you have a safe for the firearm in question and that it is securely installed in your home, for first time applicants this usually involves a police inspection of the safe in your home.
The usual wait from application submission to license receipt is approximately two months (though during periods of backlogs and strike action it can extend to 12+ months). Your application goes from your local DFO to the provincial headquarters, and then to the capitol headquarters where it is reviewed. If your application is successful, your license card is printed at your provincial headquarters and delivered to your DFO where you can pick it up.
There is no penalty to having your license application denied, usually a reason will be provided and you can apply again immediately, however the entire waiting process starts again. You can appeal a rejected license, but the average wait for an appeal is far longer than simply applying again.
Once you have your weapon and license you can do pretty much whatever you want within legal bounds, you aren't limited by what is written on the license. You can carry your DSS race gun all day and use it for self defence. You can take great-great-grandpa's Boer War Mauser 1898 under PH and use it in IDPA three gun. There are no limitations on barrel lengths, silencers, magazine size, or accessories of any kind, however you may not remove any identifying marks (serial numbers and such) or change the calibre of the weapon (that would require relicensing).
If you want to carry the law requires that it is carried securely (i.e. in a holster) and that it is concealed. It's concealed carry or leave it at home. Open carry is a punishable offence and most local firearm owners believe if it were allowed it would make you a target for criminals. This practically limits carry to pistols, though you can still use any licensed weapon for self defence if you have it at hand. You do not need to apply specifically to carry, the right is granted automatically on receipt of your license (with the limitations I just mentioned).
As for ammunition you can only buy ammunition which is safe to fire in your weapon (basically limited to the calibre it is licensed under, except for rimfire ammunition and revolvers), unless you have DSS or PH you are limited to only 200 rounds of any single calibre in your possession at a time. Reloading supplies are limited to 2400 primers, 2.4kg of powder, and 200 empty brass outside of DSS or PH.
Lastly, you must notify the firearms registry of a change in your home address within 30 days of moving.
I think that covers just about everything, I'll post any corrections in the comments and mention them at the top of this post.
For those who are curious, I currently own four firearms:

SD - S&W M&P Shield 9mm
OSS - H&K USP 9mm
OSS - Winchester 1300 Defender 12Ga
DSS - FN FAL'

10 months ago.

by Nina 13.06.16 16:47

aquila wrote:
Nina wrote:
aquila wrote:
Nina wrote:
skyrocket wrote:@Aquila - that I know.

Infact, changing countries but similar culture - a uni friend of mine from Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) came home from his conscription with a wardrobe full (literally) of hand grenades; guns; and god knows what else. Another rather immature friend from the same country came home after the Rhodesian war and promptly blew up his father's garden shed with explosives he'd brought back with him from the fighting - no idea why. I appreciate times have changed over the last few years and gun laws in SA have been tightened but gun ownership is still very high out there. I doubt that the average man/woman makes a huge show of ownership unless the situation requires it; no-one I know could be described as gun toting.
Our ex daughter in law and her mother and sister all carried a taser too as well as a small hand gun.
Seriously Nina? they carried guns? what year was this?

I was completely bowled over by the carrying of pepper spray in South Africa and I'm only going back about five years ago. There was no right to carry a gun, and when I was in South Africa tasers were outlawed too.
5/6 years ago aquila.
South Africa, the lawful/lawless country then.

Did you ask you ex daughter-in-law whether she was licenced to carry a hand gun? because it's illegal in South Africa, and had she used it she would have been jailed.

Yes they were aquila. Not sure about the tasers though and I never saw those to be honest. They moved from Namibia to Cape Town.

Every private house or estate we visited though whilst there was heavily guarded with spiked topped walls and big dogs. Now this made me very nervous.

by skyrocket 13.06.16 17:34

Just wanted to add that no-one I know who possesses a firearm in SA shoots wildlife. One of our closest friends has just sold his business to devote his time to saving rhino.

by Guest 13.06.16 17:52

If I lived in SA I would want a gun.

I suspect the Police are not just around the corner looking after you.

by Liz Eagles 13.06.16 18:25

In S.A. the security companies paid for around £30 per month have operatives legally licenced to carry a gun - and they turn up a long time before the police in my experience. Press your alarm button and there's an armed oke at your door within a couple of minutes. Oscar Pistorius seems to have missed the point there.

by Guest 13.06.16 18:36

aquila wrote:
BlueBag wrote:If I lived in SA I would want a gun.

I suspect the Police are not just around the corner looking after you.
In S.A. the security companies paid for around £30 per month have operatives legally licenced to carry a gun - and they turn up a long time before the police in my experience. Press your alarm button and there's an armed oke at your door within a couple of minutes. Oscar Pistorius seems to have missed the point there.

Two minutes and you're dead.

I would want a gun.

by mysterion 13.06.16 19:12

What is an oke?

by skyrocket 13.06.16 21:58

@mysterion

Oke is used in the same context as guy/bloke. Can also be used to describe a mixed sex group, the same as guys e.g. 'What are you okes doing tomorrow?'

by Liz Eagles 14.06.16 5:30

My sincere apologies for being wrong and I got the gun laws (and taser laws) in South Africa completely wrong.

Oscar Pistorius - Page 23 WFhJybpBrsphwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

Oscar Pistorius - Page 23 WFhJybpBrsphwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

This is a sincere apology.

Back onto the Pistorius case, there is a forthcoming documentary where Oscar Pistorius speaks to Mark Williams-Thomas

http://www.channel24.co.za/TV/News/oscar-pistorius-sits-down-for-first-tv-interview-since-reevas-death-20160609cheduled for 24th June.

This is British media gaining a scoop. What it has to do with British media beats me, however Mark Williams-Thomas is the go-to man for securing an interview with Oscar Pistorius. This is the same Mark Williams-Thomas who has been discussed on this forum many times with regards to his less than transparent occupation/short time served within the UK police.

Mark Williams-Thomas' forthcoming documentary due to be scheduled on ITV on 24th June is also a part of the sentencing trial. It's been taken to task by Gerrie Nel when questioning an expert psychologist giving evidence on behalf of Oscar Pistorius.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jun/13/oscar-pistorius-sentencing-murder-reeva-steenkamp

by skyrocket 14.06.16 7:45

@Aquila - no problem, we all get things wrong from time to time. As you say, back to the main topic - Pistorius.

by Liz Eagles 14.06.16 14:56

skyrocket wrote:@Aquila - no problem, we all get things wrong from time to time. As you say, back to the main topic - Pistorius.

Thank you. As an aside, I'd love to hear and discuss your experience of South Africa - mine wasn't so good after gunmen entered the house. The police were useless - I found a bullet on the living room carpet after they'd left - and I kid you not when I say that a man walked into the living room while I was giving my account of things to complain that the corner shop was selling out of date foodstuff.

The only person who was on the ball was the security guard who turned up within a couple of minutes of pressing the panic alarm. I couldn't get to the panic alarm because I was dragged throughout the house with my arms tied and a gun pressed into me.

I find it really strange that Oscar Pistorius didn't hit the panic button in his bedroom - surely he had a panic button in his bedroom (and he lived in a gated community with 24 hour security just yards away from his house) but took a loaded gun kept underneath his bed and went into 'combat mode'.

by jozi 16.06.16 12:30

aquila wrote:
skyrocket wrote:@Aquila - no problem, we all get things wrong from time to time. As you say, back to the main topic - Pistorius.
Thank you. As an aside, I'd love to hear and discuss your experience of South Africa - mine wasn't so good after gunmen entered the house. The police were useless - I found a bullet on the living room carpet after they'd left - and I kid you not when I say that a man walked into the living room while I was giving my account of things to complain that the corner shop was selling out of date foodstuff.

The only person who was on the ball was the security guard who turned up within a couple of minutes of pressing the panic alarm. I couldn't get to the panic alarm because I was dragged throughout the house with my arms tied and a gun pressed into me.

I find it really strange that Oscar Pistorius didn't hit the panic button in his bedroom - surely he had a panic button in his bedroom (and he lived in a gated community with 24 hour security just yards away from his house) but took a loaded gun kept underneath his bed and went into 'combat mode'.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience in South Africa aquilla, very traumatizing I'm sure and I can understand why you think this Country is bad. I have lived here for over 20 yrs and love this place,I also use to carry a gun (we had a license). The laws have changed now and we decided to gave our gun license up, we never found any use for it anyway !!! We went back to the UK in 2000 and lived their for 4 yrs, was shocked how everything had changed to how it used to be, we left to come back and have not regretted it at all and are still loving it. What I'm saying is not all experiences are the same !!! Your networking remark making you shocked and sick, I do not understand or have experienced that either, suppose its the company you mixed with !!! Anyway networking is networking no matter which Country it is.......As for Reeva not looking at Oscar if he was not famous...yes I think your right but that also applied to lots of girls not only here in SA, most are the wags in the UK don't you think ?

by Liz Eagles 16.06.16 12:40

I couldn't agree with you more if I tried.

by willowthewisp 16.06.16 13:36

I noticed a short clip from the news and seen "Oscar's" performance appearing before the Court minus his prosthetic legs,going for the sympathy from the Court in the process, still manufacturing for as short a sentence as possible, but at the end of the day, he still took his girl friends life,RIP Reeva and my sympathy to your family in this tragic loss of her life and Oscar has ruined his own life in the process,why couldn't he just let her walk away,Love?

by skyrocket 16.06.16 13:44

@Aquila - yes, awful thing to happen. Hope you are fully recovered and are living somewhere where you can put it behind you.

by jozi 18.06.16 9:23

willowthewisp wrote:I noticed a short clip from the news and seen "Oscar's" performance appearing before the Court minus his prosthetic legs,going for the sympathy from the Court in the process, still manufacturing for as short a sentence as possible, but at the end of the day, he still took his girl friends life,RIP Reeva and my sympathy to your family in this tragic loss of her life and Oscar has ruined his own life in the process,why couldn't he just let her walk away,Love?

Saw all the trial on TV and could not understand how he was allowed to not give evidence again......said he was too nervous and anxious and traumatized , he did not look like that to me ! Plus he has already given a TV interview of his version to a overseas tv company !!! How can he get away with that when the Court does not know WHAT his version is ....The little performance he did perform on his stumps was to show us all, how unsteady he is, that is a load of bull as his defense already said in the trial he carried Reeva downstairs on his stumps !!! I have seen him running on a track on his stumps, he is not unsteady on his stumps at all.

by sar 18.06.16 9:28

Furious with Pistorious! How dare he sit with his head in his hands in court!!! Maybe he should have sat with his head in his hands before he picked up the gun shot through the door and killed his girlfriend! Monster!!!! He deserves to rot.