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Post by Paddingtom Sun May 12, 2024 1:59 pm

Hi Seedsofdoubt,  yes I get that..youre quite right to point it out......

What is your personal opinion that convinces you they were lying?...Im desperate to find someone that can convince me...
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Post by Paddingtom Sun May 12, 2024 2:03 pm

sorry, I mean Crusader...youre right to point it out...   what is your stance on smiths and reasons?
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Post by crusader Sun May 12, 2024 3:08 pm

I don't think the Smiths have anything to gain by lying, by all accounts, they are a normal family and even the police officer who was in contact with them in Ireland vouched for them.
They were a little late reporting to the police what they saw, they obviously didn't attach much importance to it at the time, as soon as they realised they could possibly have seen the abductor, they contacted the police, I get that.
The photofit they gave looked like Gerry, they believe it was Gerry they saw that night, ok they can't say it was 100% definately Gerry but they believe it was.
I believe them when they say they saw a man with a sleeping child hurrying down the alleyway around 10pm, they even spoke to him and found it strange he didn't answer.
I'm much more inclined to believe what they said they saw rather than Jane Tanner.
They gave a descripton of what the man was wearing from memory, when Jane Tanner said she had seen the man carrying the child, she said it was too dark to see much detail, yet in subsiquent statements, she went into more detail of the man hair colour and length, what he was wearing, colours etc and even his shoes. 
And all that after just a glimpse of him.
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Post by Huddo Sun May 12, 2024 3:54 pm

What is most likely. Gerry was actually carrying the body of Madeleine, who had died at least 2 days earlier, to a pre-arranged location. That location was an apartment or villa to the West of PDL, the less popular part where very few if any properties would be let in early May. The body was put in a freezer and removed several weeks later. Realising he’d been spotted just before 10pm the T9 had to manufacture the disappearance being discovered at the very precise time (when all other timings were vague) of 10pm. The hue and cry was actually raised later, as testified by the neighbour upstairs (10.30), consistent with the first police call at 10.40. The false Tanner sighting was to convince police the “abduction” happened 40mins earlier so the the person seen by Smiths could not have been the abductor. The route used by Gerry had no CCTV on it, which is why he went that way and not the more direct route
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Post by crusader Sun May 12, 2024 4:24 pm

Sounds plausible but I don't believe Madeleine was ever in a freezer and then brought out later.
Why would they not put her in a freezer 2 day's or whenever before and use another sleeping child on the 3rd?
I just cannot believe the freezer and thawing out in the hire car scenario.
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Post by Silentscope Sun May 12, 2024 4:46 pm

What is most likely is the Problem. I agree Huddo has a plausible Scenario there if Madeleine was discovered by Gerry Thursday night. Unfortunately there is no definitive Proof that any one Theory listed above is correct.

Just opinions.

Examples:
The group changed their Dining arrangements on Monday.
a) because it was too far to the Millennium.
b) because the Food was better and cheaper.
c) because Madeleine had suffered an accident.

Gerry and Kate deleted their SMS’ before the Alert.
a) because their Phone memories were full.
b) because they were nothing of importance and taking up space.
c) because there were things in those Messages which the PJ might wish to use against them.

All very interesting and worthy of discussion, but not Conclusive Evidence of an earlier Death.
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Post by crusader Sun May 12, 2024 5:07 pm

Silentscope wrote...
The group changed their Dining arrangements on Monday.






I think they changed their dining arrangements so they could use the child monitors the Paynes and O'Brien took with them.
They fully intended leaving their kids and doing their own checking when on holiday.
As I said, the Paynes and  O'Brien took monitors with them, the Paynes also lent the Oldfields a listener, so the only people not covered were the McCann's.
Normally, guests of Mark Warner could dine at the tapas on 1 night of their holiday, that is why they had to make special arrangements to dine there from Monday to Thursday, Friday was already arranged by the tennis club.
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Post by crusader Sun May 12, 2024 8:25 pm

Nobody not even the Smiths are willing to say with any certainty that the man carrying the child was Gerry McCann.
The point is, the Smith family said they saw a man carrying a child at or about 10pm on the third of May that looked like Gerry.
I have seen no reason or real evidence not to believe them.
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Post by seedsofdoubt Sun May 12, 2024 10:26 pm

Tony Bennett listed 12 sets of contradictions in Martin Smith's shifting accounts:

SMITHMAN 12: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

A majority on here didn't agree with his view though.

SMITHMAN 2, SMITHMAN 3, SMITHMAN 4, SMITHMAN 6, SMITHMAN 7, SMITHMAN 8, SMITHMAN 9, SMITHMAN 10, SMITHMAN 11 and SMITHMAN12 are also worth a look.  

Smithman was the chief suspect once! - in the Crimewatch hoax of 14 October 2013.

Until Christian Bruckner came along
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Post by Cake Lover Mon May 13, 2024 5:43 am

Did the twelve year old Smith child volunteer her information, or did the police lead her by asking questions? 'Was there anything you noticed about his clothes? A belt, with a distinctive buckle, for example? A tee shirt with a motif?' That sounds a but desperate from me, but she was only twelve.
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Post by crusader Mon May 13, 2024 6:06 am

By the way the Smith Family have been demonised you would think it was them that had abducted Madeleine.
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Post by Paddingtom Mon May 13, 2024 7:10 am

Hi All,

All your comments have really made me happy...I was under the misunderstanding that you all thought the Smiths were lying.  I have however, been pleasantly surprised to see thats not true....  I agree with Crusader that the Smiths have been demonised and for my money that is a miscarriage of justice.  ...The only ones that have actually met them (portugese police) belive them to be truthful.  They were onto the Tannerman sighting being rubbish starightaway and didnt want to release her desription at all.....I believe im correct in saying they were presurised to bt Gordon Brown!!!....anyway, my point is, the PJ seem to be good judges of character no doubt built up from years of experience.    I am still saddened however that some well respected researchers (RDH) do not believe them...   Dont get me wrong. I love his forensic research, but I do think he has got this one wrong.....not telling tales out of school here, I have told him directly too...... (he ignored me...)  As far as I can make out his dismissal is based on their vague descriptions (I disagree) and the fact that Mr Smith wouldnt engage with RDH......terribly unfair........you cant blame him for only being willing to work with the official parties....its probably a nightmare for him.....he also probably wants to protect his family...
I will look through all the smithman links when i get the chance...hell of a lot of stuff, so I may be sometime....
One other thing, with the deepest of respect Huddo, the Estela de Luz cctv was very well pubicised.....Goncalo Amaral deeply regretted not getting to it before it was overwritten and it is also the one that my theory of it" all being for the benefit of cctv" relies on..... I belive it was Silentscope who provided a video with it being discussed as a crucial camera.   I belive it was the fear of this cctv showing someone very similar to gerry that caused Tannerman to be sent in the opposite direction.  Once they realised the cctv had been overwritten, they relaxed and were then able to give more credit to Smithman.....
I previously had a discusion with Silentscope or Crusader about the risk of this camera not working......Obviously we now know that it was, but when they were planning the events of 3rd May, I belive the reliance on this camera was not that daft.   Now a days when there is a cctv evry couple of yards, there are far too many for them all to be maintained properly and you stand a good chance of some not working....Back then they were rarer and much more likely to be looked after....Much higher chance of any individual cctv working than now....I do not think it was big a leap of faith to trust that the cctv was actally working........as it turned out (smith) they probably desperately hoped it wasnt.......but were saved anyway when it was overwritten due to their delaying tactics...
Anyway, thanks again for all your comments supporting the Smiths, like you. I do belive they were a genuine family telling the truth.
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Post by Cake Lover Mon May 13, 2024 8:18 am

This is just the place for thorough investigation - to quote the professor 'leave no stone unturned' - and equally thorough discussion.
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Post by Paddingtom Tue May 14, 2024 9:34 am

I know there are still some out there who do not believe the Smiths. But I know the Smiths were telling the truth. How do I know? Because the Mccanns told us they were.

Lets pretend for a moment that the Smiths were lying. What would the Mccanns do when their sighting came in? They would do what they did with all the other sightings that they knew were false...they would ignore it.

From 4th May 2007 onwards sightings were coming in from Spain and Morocco and then further afield. Several local waiffs and strays were investigated and eliminated. The Smith sighting would have been just another avenue that would come to nothing.They had nothing to fear.

The same applies to a random carrying his child home. All the local creche records would have been seized, an appeal would have been put out, he would have been identified and eliminated from their enquiries.

They had their suspect: Tannerman, and they did not want the focus being taken away from that. They wanted to keep control of the the narrative and secure a sustainable, feasible patsy.

With this in mind, they tried to finger Sagresman but he was investigated and swiftly eliminated.

So, when the genuine Smith sighting came in, what did the Mccanns do?.....they tried to bury it. They desperately tried to keep the focus on Tannerman and away from the Smith sighting. They said it was in the wrong direction, the timing was wrong, anything they could think of to get rid of it.

Their fear of it shows us that it was genuine, and not only that, but that the sighting was of a member of team mccann. They needed Smithman to go away.

But he wouldnt go away and worse, it sounded alarmingly like a description of Gerry.
So, after months of fruitlessly trying to bury it they decided on a change of tactic: “Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer”.

They got the Smiths to join team Mccann. As far as the Smiths were concerned, they just wanted to help with solving the mystery and were more than willing to help all they could.

As far as Team Mccann were concerned, it allowed them to take control of the narrative and persuade the Smiths that perhaps the man they saw was a bit shorter or had longer hair, anything to make it sound less like Gerry....Perhaps they could put out some confusing e-fits and credit the Smiths with having helped in their construction to give it gravitas?

Initially they tried to link Tannerman and Smithman and spent years evolving the story but most people believed in Smithman and no-one believed in Tannerman so eventually they descided to abandon Tannerman and he was converted into Crecheman and disappeared into the sunset never to be seen again.

And so it came to pass that the public was finally allowed to believe that the Smith sighting was important after all because it showed a non-Gerry lookalike abducting Madeleine on the night of 3rd May 2007.

In the battle of Smithman vs Tannerman, Smithman had won because it was the truth.

Remember, in 17 years, no-one, not the Portugese Police, not the English Police, not the Mccanns, not MI5, not MI6, not any of their “private investigators”, no-one has ever managed to destroy the Smith sighting,,,why? Because they were telling the truth.

I just want to make one further point but I freely admit it is a bit of a leap of faith because as hard as Ive tried, I cannot find the exact information that I want. Anyway, here goes.

Jane Tanner and many others fingered Robert Murat resulting in his being made Arguido on 14th May 2007.

The Smith sighting came in a couple of days later and on 26th May they travelled to Portugal to make statements and asserted that the man they saw was not Murat because they knew him.

We know from Goncalo's book that “Their coming to Portugal as well as their statements are kept secret”. He does not specify how long it was kept secret unfortunately.

We also know that after seeing the Mccanns arriving back in England in mid September, the Smiths relayed their suspicion to the police that it was Gerry they had seen.

We know from RDH's wonderful films that on 11th July 2007 the portugese police gathered some of the accusers and Murat together for a confrontation but Goncalo states “Nothing new comes out of it.... each side stands its ground”.

Then on 13th November there is a meeting between Mccann representatives and the Murat family and solicitor, followed a few days later by a meeting back in England of many of the Team Mccann members. Shortly afterwards Murat is released from his Arguido status.

Were these meetings to discuss the problem of the Smith sighting which just wasnt going away? Had they finally realised that their use of Murat as a Patsy just wasnt sustainable?

Was the outcome of these meetings that they decided to adopt a policy of “If you cant beat them, join them”? and they decided to do whatever it took to get control of the Smiths and influence their sighting..? I believe it was.

So, the only question you need to ask yourselves is “Who did the Smiths see?”

a) Gerry Buttons Mccann and Maddie
b) Gerry Buttons Mccann and Ella/Amelie
c)Gerry Buttons Mccann lookalike from Team Mccann and A.N.Other?

Which one is it?
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Post by crusader Tue May 14, 2024 6:47 pm

There are some people who believe the pyjamas held up by Kate and Gerry at the press meeting were the very pyjamas that they said Madeline was wearing when she was abducted. They said they belonged to Amilie so were smaller and with buttons on the back.
Aoife Smith said the girl that the man was carrying when they saw him was wearing long sleeved pyjamas.
She also said the girl was wearing thin light trousers, white or light pink the same colour/material as the top.
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Post by Jill Havern Tue May 14, 2024 7:09 pm

Martin Smith-
“States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.”
“He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.”
“He has nothing else to offer the investigation.”


Aiofe Smith-
“Questioned, states that probably she would not be able to recognise either the individual or the child.”

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Post by crusader Tue May 14, 2024 7:37 pm

Very true, Peter Smith also said the same.
Even so, the statements they gave to the PJ on 26th May were very detailed.
It was only later in September that they thought it could be Gerry after seeing him arriving back in England carrying Sean down the aircraft steps that he thought the man they saw could be Gerry.
It wasn't his face he recognised, it was the way he was carrying the child, the same manner as the man in Portugal.
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Post by Jill Havern Tue May 14, 2024 7:55 pm

But wasn't Gerry carrying whoever (insert name here) across his arms, rather than on his shoulder?

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Post by crusader Tue May 14, 2024 8:01 pm

That was Tannerman, another good reason not to believe her.
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Post by Paddingtom Wed May 15, 2024 6:34 am

Thankyou both for your contributiions,  I agree with Crusader, it wasnt Gerrys face theyrecognised it was his mannerisms, and all the smiths said he was carryinmg the child on his left shoulder....the result of which, it deliberately obscured his face a bit..... I believ the different heights of the family would have given them a different viewpoint and they would have observed slightly different details....

Crusader:  The point of the long sleeves has been raised before and my theory of it actally being Ella could explain this.....IF it was Ella, would you want to dress her in a recently  deceased childs clothes?
Im not sure I would....my belif is that it was Ellas pjs...with long sleeves....they clearly had to look similar enough to Maddies for the benefit of a grainy cctv, but I really cant see them being maddies pjs.

As for the description, I think its quite detailed given the couple of seconds he saw him, it was dark and he was deliberately trying to obscure himself:
Regarding the description of the individual who carried the child he states that: he was Caucasian, around 175 to 180m in height. He appeared to be about 35/40 years old. He had an average build, a bit on the thin side. His hair was short, in a basic male cut, brown in colour. He cannot state if it was dark or lighter in tone. He did not wear glasses and had no beard or moustache. He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.
— He was wearing cream or beige-coloured cloth trousers in a classic cut. He did not see his shoes.



The statement goes on and on with various other bits of info. All this is being discarded in favour of a one line sentence:


States that it is not possible for him to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.


Im sorry but I think this sentence has been blown out of proportion and everything else he said has been ignored.....Hed never seen the man before and didnt recognise him...he was unable to identify him...fair enough......


Just imagine you see someone walking down your street that youve never seen before,,,you might superficially look at him and mention to your other half that a stange man was walking down your street that you didnt recognise and couldnt identify.....The next day, there he is again and you recognise him......turns out hes the new neighbour that just moved in at the end of the road......


Im sorry, but I feel that possibly becaus of RDHs wonderful films, we have all been so engrosed in his forensic work that we tend to believe everything he says rather than thinking for ourselves,   To my mind, he was very keen to have an excuse to dismiss tha smith sighting because he just couldnt come up with a sensible explanation of what the hell Gerry was doing wondering around PDL with Maddies corpse on may 3rd when he was convinced she died on 29th?........



Im not having a go at RDH...I think hes amazing and does wonderful work but he himself says something on the lines of only belive half of what to see".......think for yourself.....How likely is it that the smiths have lied all these years.....and in the face of adversity....they sent a solicitors letter to several publications that printed erroneous information about him and the publications were forced to apologise......he no doubt has had this hanging over his and his familys head all this time and he has nver given in......he is an honest man who told his children to tell the police the truth....and they still do,,,,
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Post by crusader Wed May 15, 2024 6:54 am

If it was Gerry and Ella, it could only be because Madeleine died earlier in the week and they wanted it to look like it was Madeleine being abducted that night.
Non of the other men were willing to take the risk of being seen, so it had to be Gerry.
It would also tie in to all the fuss about Russ and Jane's checking that night.
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Post by Paddingtom Wed May 15, 2024 7:09 am

exactly Crusader.   For me, it was gerry carrying ella for the benfit of cctv.  maddie was long gone.

And dont forget all the similarities between the" sightings"......they all had to be similar to tie in with the cctv image.      The reason the smiths description also matched, wasnt because they were in on it, it was because they actually saw him....buttons .....
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Post by crusader Wed May 15, 2024 7:19 am

I'm bemused as to why the Smith sighting is so derided, I've never doubted they were telling the truth.
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Post by Silentscope Wed May 15, 2024 8:42 am

It would have been easier for the PJ if there had been Photos taken at the Tapas Table so that they could see if anyone had the same clothing on as described by the Smith family.

But either no Photos were taken, the Camera was just there for show, or it was used to take Photos but they were later deleted.

So we cannot say if a pair of Beige trousers with buttons were worn by Gerry before the ‘Abduction’ was reported.

But if I was ‘Smithman’ I could use the going to the Toilet excuse to cover the time required to enter 5A, get changed, jog to the Church or the Beach, come back, get rid of the Smithman clothing and be back in my Jeans ready for the big reveal at 22:30. (Not 22:00 as widely reported)

Only one thing we can be sure of which would be Physically Impossible.

No one can be in two places at the same point in time.

So either the Smiths are right and Gerry was not at the Tapas table at 22:00.

Or he was, and they were mistaken, they saw someone else.
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Post by crusader Wed May 15, 2024 8:54 am

There are also a number of people who gave statements that said the "event" happened earlier.
people independent from the tapas workers said in statements, they were searching from around 9-30.
Also Stephen Carpenter's wife was said to have heard someone calling Madeline just after 9-30 when they left the tapas bar to go home.
Carpenter didn't say in his statement that Gerry was still in the tapas bar when they left.
He did say he saw Kate and Gerry leaving the table at times, which is a lie if the McCann's statements are to be believed, Kate never left the table untill after the Carpenter's had left.
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